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It's not so much that AC is pointless, but it's very expensive and at higher levels buys you less and less. If your AC is 60 but your best save is a +10, you might as well change your character class to "mind-controlled burning frog."
Yes, it helps against crits if it is high enough.
For most characters, the stacking rules make it difficult to plausibly get ACs that high and still be good at their primary role.
After all, if you're not good at an offensive role, why would the enemy waste time targeting you? He can just take you down last.
A certain kind of campaign and player can make the most of that, but in most situations, the GM will eventually figure out that the invincible PC isn't dealing enough damage to be a priority kill.
It's useful, but not necessarily the most important defense. Failed saves can cripple you instantly, hp damage wont.
Also, there's no point to AC past a certain point. If a 19 misses you, it doesn't matter if it missed by one or forty.
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It's not so much that AC is pointless, but it's very expensive and at higher levels buys you less and less. If your AC is 60 but your best save is a +10, you might as well change your character class to "mind-controlled burning frog."
The nice part about playing a MCBF is that they are effectively immune to mind-affecting spells, fire, and polymorph-into-frog type effects.
well im gonna have good saves, as im a monk druid gestalt. plus id probably invest in a cloak of resistance. plus ill have a but ton of resistance against mind control.
+12 base, if its magical, + 4 (steel soul, im a dwarf) if its from a fey +2 (druid) if its compulsion its another +4 i think...etc.
as for my attack, i have 18STR and i can wild shape into huge creatures and give myself bulls strength. thats 28STR at level 6. at level 20 if i managed a good belt it would be 36STR...thats all my +hit tho. so my offense definitly wont be as good.
its basically a ape shaman multiclassed into brawler(better hit, damage, hp, bab) and MoMS+sacred mountain+qinggong.
Depending on the adventure's objective, being the guy who always survives to run away can be great.
For instance, if there's a magic MacGuffin the bad guy is after, your character should hold it. If a totally brutal boss shows up and he can't hit you, your crazy mobile AC build can lure him wherever you need, which spares your party and allows for tactical opportunities.
The problem is, that's a defensive maneuver. When it comes to offensive plot arcs (e.g. taking the MacGuffin from the bad guy), be prepared to twiddle thy thumbs a lot.
well im gonna have good saves, as im a monk druid gestalt. plus id probably invest in a cloak of resistance. plus ill have a but ton of resistance against mind control.
Yes, but what can't you do? A balor's best attack is a +31, which means that any AC above 51 is equally effective against it. So whatever twinkie you used to raise your AC from a 55 to a 65 is effectively wasted. Could you have done anything else with that money/feat/spell slot/class ability choice?
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If you're bringing Gestalt into the equation than you're no longer playing Pathfinder, you're playing some kind of hybrid game that includes non-Pathfinder rules, and this question more properly belongs in the homebrew forum.
Now, I'd like to see your AC buildup drawn entirely from Pathfinder rules. I warrant that would change the picture considerably.
Easy, Laz. It's not like this PFS or something. People can advise on it here, let's not get all purist.
He didn't ask "is this legal RAW", he asked "is this any good, given these assumptions?"
High AC is nice.
You gon' git' grappled.
If I'm ever inclined to run a game for gestalt characters, I think I would have to overpower my monsters, too. Like having the gestalt PCs fight balors with class levels (and maybe gestalt class levels) just to maintain balance.
Which means, maybe having an AC of 60 would still allow my super monsters to steamroll this character.
Or maybe not. I don't ever use gestalts.
All I'm saying is, it seems hard to advise on whether AC is useful in a game where the PCs and presumably the monsters and NPCs are all using non-Pathfinder rules and homebrew customization to generate unpredicable results.
If you want to be as unhittable as possible, then invest into AC. It's worth it but only if you're the guy who gets attacked in melee a lot AND only if you are a real threat that your enemies must keep attacking you to try to take you down. If you can't manage those conditions, invest in other things instead.
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If you want to be as unhittable as possible, then invest into AC. It's worth it but only if you're the guy who gets attacked in melee a lot AND only if you are a real threat that your enemies must keep attacking you to try to take you down. If you can't manage those conditions, invest in other things instead.
Well, even under those conditions, unless you can be confident that enemies will be trying to hit you with things instead of grapple you, enspell you, blast the area around you, or use other forms of crowd control effects on you, you still tend to hit a point of diminishing returns fairly quickly.
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I also think that you (and LazarX) may be overestimating the effectiveness of gestalt in terms of making overpowering characters. Gestalt characters are more powerful, yes. But this is not because they're capable of overwhelming force, but more typically because they have fewer weaknesses and more versatility.
E.g. a gestalt Fighter/X will still only have a +20 BAB at level 20. He'll still only have a +12 base Fort save. What he will lack is the typical cripplingly weak Will saves, and he'll have the option to do other things (such as casting spells) while preserving the ability to hit things with other things.
Similarly, a gestalt Wizard/X will still only be able to cast level-appropriate spells. He just won't run out of spells as often because he'll have other options available to him, either more spells or an effective weapon.
70 AC and all saves 30+ is achievable as synthesist dipping paladin and maybe monk.
well im gonna have good saves, as im a monk druid gestalt. plus id probably invest in a cloak of resistance. plus ill have a but ton of resistance against mind control.Yes, but what can't you do? A balor's best attack is a +31, which means that any AC above 51 is equally effective against it.
Unless it buffs, gets the drop on you, or some other circumstance.
I have found that AC generally does not scale as well as attack bonus, to the higher the level the more you will get hit. However you will still get hit less often, threat confirms will fail more often, etc.
IME, Not Getting Full Attack'ed is the right up there next to not getting mind-controlled.
I think there are too many people that assume that Gestalt is part of the Pathfinder mechanics or is balanced with it. Pathfinder changes severely the impact of Gestalt because the base classes are considerably more powerful than they were in 3.5, where PrC's ruled the day. In fact 3.5's advisory on the Gestalt was that DM's should forbid PrCs with it. With Pathfinder, the situation on Gestalt has almost entirely flip-flopped, making some truly broken combinations possible.
I've never heard anyone make the case that Gestalt was "balanced" in any edition of the game. Even the original presentation notes that it's best for parties that are way small or underpowered for whatever reason.
I think it's safe to assume that anyone asking for a ruling on gestalt play understands this. I recommend going easy on the OP here, because he may not be the vanguard of this army of gestalt-assumers you are fighting. :)
And again, he wasn't asking about the validity of his build, he was asking whether it would perform under certain AC assumptions!
+5 fullplate is AC +14, max dex AC of +2, barkskin max NA of +5, dodge feat +1, ring protection +5, ioun stone +1 (insight), jingasa of fortunate soldier +1 luck, +5 tower shield (+9), +1 dodge from haste.
That is AC of 49. I sure you can find a few misc spells to boost this a little higher, so a 55AC is not completely unreasonable. Just off the top of my head
+5 fullplate is AC +14, max dex AC of +2, barkskin max NA of +5, dodge feat +1, ring protection +5, ioun stone +1 (insight), jingasa of fortunate soldier +1 luck, +5 tower shield (+9), +1 dodge from haste.
That is AC of 49. I sure you can find a few misc spells to boost this a little higher, so a 55AC is not completely unreasonable.
When you are using wildshape it's debatable whether you get the benefit of the hardy dwarf trait, the same goes with the ironhide.
I don't know anything about styles and such so i don't know if you can use them while wildshaped or not, can you?
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When using wildshape I don't believe you get the armor bonus from the bracers unless you have the wild ability added on to it. Ironhide shouldn't stack with wildshape's natural armor bonus.
I don't understand how you're getting +4 ac from crane style and +4 ac from bastion stance. I just read Monk of the Sacred Mountain and bastion stance doesn't seem to say anything about giving a bonus to ac.
IMO, depends a lot on what you fight. If the enemy has a lot of class levels/iterative attacks, it can be very useful. Against mainly spellcasters and natural attack monsters less so.
may i ask why a natural attack monster is less so? do they use a different hit table?
They tend to use lots of combat maneuvers: grab, constrict, trip, etc.
AC helps you to avoid iterative attacks... The 1st attack will hit your basically every time... but the iterative attacks still have a reasonable miss chance if you have a good AC.
That said, conventional AC becomes much less important than touch AC and extremely less important than saves. Good saves are crucial at higher levels... AC is nice, but not all that. Miss chance (such as that provided by Blink, Mirror Image, etc) is usually a better way to avoid physical attacks.
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While tinkering with Herolab, I was able to squeeze a 62 AC on a Halfling Tower Shield Specialist at level 20, with primo gear(remember at level 20 you should have 880,000 in personal wealth)... this is before Combat Expertise and other bells and whistles turned on... He does blah damage for his level, but can trip darn near anything with a +32... But yes the saves are total crap and this guy would be batting for the BBEG unless he had a Wizard shielding him from compulsion...
Interesting exercise but not a character I would play.
That being said an AC in the mid to upper 40s is very doable and makes you quite unlikely to be auto hit by all but the biggest of baddies.
ah ya, pretty much my only answer to that is escape artist i guess, unless there is a spell in my druids spell list i havent thought of.
Freedom of motion is the classic anti grapple spell.
The problem is that you don't have enough spell slots for everything. So we're back to: five more points of AC, or some pearls of powers?
Yes, partly because of combat maneuvers but also because most of their attacks are at full BAB or BAB-2.
Say you encounter first an ancient gold dragon and then an infernal champion
The statistics for the infernal champion are buffed, but the dragon is unbuffed in the stats. It'll probably have at least an additonal +3 from Aid, Haste and Prayer and an additional +2 from a potion of bull's strength (not accounting for any permanent magic items it might have).
So what it comes down to is the dragon has this attack routine after buffs:
bite +41 (4d6+24/19–20), 2 claws +41 (2d8+16/19–20), 2 wings +39 (2d6+9/19–20), tail +39 (2d8+24/19–20)
while the fighter looks like this:
+3 unholy cold iron falchion +40/+35/+30/+25 (2d4+23/15–20/×3 plus 2d6 vs. good)
So with 40 AC, the character will take basically 95%/2x95%/2x95%/95% damage from the dragon, and 95%/80%/55%/30% from the fighter.
With 50 AC, the character will take 60%/2x60%/2x50%/50% from the dragon, and 50%/25%/5%/5% from the fighter.
Now, in reality I assume (I rarely play at that high level) that both attack bonuses and AC will be higher from various buffs, but it's just as an example of how monsters tend to have higher attack bonus across the attacks while those with iteratives tend to be less useful against high-AC targets.
also of course it depends on if you're usually up against one big bad monster or hordes of weenies.
AC is far more useful against 4 CR14's than a single CR18, though they are the same CR encounter.
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So with 40 AC, the character will take basically 95%/2x95%/2x95%/95% damage from the dragon, and 95%/80%/55%/30% from the fighter.
With 50 AC, the character will take 60%/2x60%/2x50%/50% from the dragon, and 50%/25%/5%/5% from the fighter.Now, in reality I assume (I rarely play at that high level) that both attack bonuses and AC will be higher from various buffs, but it's just as an example of how monsters tend to have higher attack bonus across the attacks while those with iteratives tend to be less useful against high-AC targets.
Lesson learned here is "meddle not with dragons, fore you are small and crunchy and taste good with ketchup"
3 barkskin (+5 if i used a wand)
How are you getting +5 from a wand
Are you making these wands yourself, as a 12 level plus druid, for 2x12x750 = 9,000 gp/18,000 gp retail, for a 50 count wand.
Most Druid bought wands are at base level = 4,5000 gp would only give a +1 to AC. (2x3x750)=4,5000
Most Ranger bought wands are at base level = 6,000 gp would only give a +1 to AC, as there caster level is equal to class level - 3. (2x4x750)=6,000
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At level 6, base wealth would be around 16,000. So how can you Afford to buy such high level wands.??
oh ok, Level 20, though you said level 6.