|
Why would you expect someone who doesn't take any damage because the tank takes it for him care much about his own healing?Because the OP was a wizard who seemed to care more than a little about his own healing?
Well, yes, in this case the OP is obviously, for whatever, taking enough damage that this matters. I was trying to point out that people are less likely to respond if they don't actually have a vested interest in the problem.
|
|
My Bloatmage has 2 standard contracts that are handed out at the beginning of the scenario. He is from Kaer Maga where the only real set of laws are those set upon by contract between two parties and the only punishment is execution for breach of contract.
One is a player contract that covers the social contract between characters and includes a line regarding healing through the spell infernal healing and the use of devil blood. You may, if you choose, opt out of this option by initialing on the line.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
Part of the problem here is how the Organized Play environment handles purchases. In a home campaign, we'd fork out enough money for magical healing ferrets before even apportioning loot.
It might be nice if PFS offered a boon that allowed characters to share in the expense of an item, with the provision that the item would entirely vanish at the end of the scenario.
|
|
Part of the problem here is how the Organized Play environment handles purchases. In a home campaign, we'd fork out enough money for magical healing ferrets before even apportioning loot.
It might be nice if PFS offered a boon that allowed characters to share in the expense of an item, with the provision that the item would entirely vanish at the end of the scenario.
That would be totally awesome for some items (high lvl scrolls) and CLW wands at high lvls when you probably will go through a wand in a scenario.
I really wish this thread would die. It's ok. Let it die. No need for more of the same repeated arguments. This one has been whipped to death. Please let it die.
|
Any character that uses Rage should strongly consider saving the majority of their first 16 PP for a resurrection. Any time a Rager goes negative, he runs the risk of dying immediately. No CLW is going to stop that. A resurrection in the bank allows that character to truly give it his/her all when the chips are down.
You do know about the Raging Vitality feat, right? It's pretty much a feat tax for being a barbarian, but I wouldn't play one without it. Not that I want to tell anyone that they have to take it, but I'd assume 90%+ of barbarians have that feat, so it kinda kills this part of your argument.
You know, I've done the math recently of saving up the 16 PA for a Raise Dead vs saving up the 5400 GP. You'll actually reach the level of being able to afford both of those at around the same time (usually around level 4). The big differences are that the GP cost can be split, so you can ask other party members to chip in, and spending the PA up front would seem to reduce the risk of dying and needing to be raised.
So with my most recently created character, I've skipped my usual routine of spending the first 2 PA on a cure wand, then saving 16 for a Raise Dead. Instead, I've been spending most of my PA getting extra equipment (cure wand, oil of Daylight, scrolls of multiple castings of Lesser Restoration and Resist Energy, wand of Protection from Evil, etc). He's already got all that at level 3, and he's saving up for a mithral breastplate, so he's sitting on 3000 GP right now, which would go a long way towards bringing him back from death, if necessary.
I'm starting to think the 16 PA for a Raise Dead is over-rated, since most groups will have the money to split the cost of doing it earlier than an individual would get the 16 prestige saved up, and many individuals will be able to afford the gold by themselves not long after that.
|
|
When I choose to heal someone out of my resources, I'm doing it because I'm feeling generous. If they're new, they get an explanation of the wonders of 2PP wands of CLW. If they're experienced, the healing will come with the question "why don't you have your own wand." If the answer is some sort of entitlement like "healing the tank (me) is the party's responsibility," or "I already do enough: Look I cast spells and stuff," my generosity dies quickly. Luckily I don't know of any regular players in our area with that kind of atitude so I don't have to worry about avoiding them at gamedays.
I know, right? I play it exactly the same!
|
|
At no point was I arguing someone else should be footing the bill for my healing expenses or that I have no responsibility for my own healing. In fact, I wasn't even really complaining or looking for a solution. I was making a point about fairness.And while there is no party gold pool in PFS that does not mean everyone can't share resources. Pathfinder is a team game, so the correct answer to who is responsible for the tank's healing is 'the entire party.'
Now, having said that, the reality is that random table makeup and the failure of some players to understand the cooperative nature of the game means it is prudent for everyone...
How fair is it that my cleric can't afford a scroll of Breath of Life because he's been burning wands like candy to heal tanks like yours? Or that I have to burn a Shield Other to heal you up after you eat a trap instead of using it to keep the bard alive?
Your decisions about how you play your character are yours, and only yours to make. So if you choose to play a character in a way that takes a lot of damage, you bear the responsibility for replacing the resources expended out of combat to bring him up to full effectiveness again. You could choose to play a character who "tanks" by taking lots of damage. Or you could play a character who "tanks" by using Crane Wing to ignore attacks and has a massive AC to deal with the rest. Or who uses a reach weapon with readied actions to trip and 5' step back along with Stand Still for anyone else. Or you could play a character who "tanks" by summoning minions and putting them between your party and the bad guys. Or you could play a character who "tanks" by using crowd control to neutralize the enemy's combat effectiveness and lets your party focus down one baddie at a time. Fairness is paying for the role you choose to play.
You decide what kind of character to play, so it's your responsibility to provide the resources to make that character effective
Player A & Player B both have cure wands.
Player A has an AC of 16 and 10 HP.
Player B has an AC of 21 and 20 HP.
Player B decides to tank because he is less likely to get hit and can take more punishment.
Player B: "Hey, I just took a crpload of damage. How about we split the wand charges to get me healed up."
Player A: "Sorry, but you chose to be the tank. It is your responsibility to heal yourself."
Player B: "Well, then I will let you tank then. I realize you will use up twice as many charges on your own wand healing yourself because of your low AC or have twice as much chance as me of dying from a crit, you chose to make a squishy character. Oh, and I am not chipping in for your inevitable Raise Dead either."
|
|
Do I NEED anymore info then your AC for is your gonna get hit often or not?!?
So you look at a single stagnant stat of my character and decide it is a bad build solely on that without knowing anything else I might bring to the table. Then you decide that since I did not, in your imagination, meet some arbitrary measure of brokenness, it is entirely my fault I am taking damage and am thus solely responsible for healing it.And people wonder why Power Gamers get such a bad rap.
And, No, it is not an issue of builds. If I had an AC of 300 and 2 Million HP it would still be an issue of fairness.
Yes, quite frankly, I can think of several ways that this is an erroneous conclusion. However, I have no intentions of indulging you in your game by explaining them to you. If you are the power gamer you think you are you should be able to figure those out on your own. I posted on this thread to make a point about fairness, not so some elitist power gamer can get his jollies by publically denegrating my build.
I should not have to (nor should anyone) justify my build to you before I get a reasonable response. And I am not going to. If you can't take me at my word then your opinion has no value to me.
IF your tanking with something other then AC...like say crane wing or HP, then listing AC isn't a description of you character. And if you think poor build choices = a poor character, then you are mistaken. Poor build choices are fine as long as YOU are willing to live with them. When your asking for others to supplement your poor choice is when your being a jerk.
|
Player A & Player B both have cure wands.
Player A has an AC of 16 and 10 HP.
Player B has an AC of 21 and 20 HP.Player B decides to tank because he is less likely to get hit and can take more punishment.
Player B: "Hey, I just took a crpload of damage. How about we split the wand charges to get me healed up."
Player A: "Sorry, but you chose to be the tank. It is your responsibility to heal yourself."
Player B: "Well, then I will let you tank then. I realize you will use up twice as many charges on your own wand healing yourself because of your low AC or have twice as much chance as me of dying from a crit, you chose to make a squishy character. Oh, and I am not chipping in for your inevitable Raise Dead either."
Player A: "Nah, don't worry about it, I'll play like I normally do when there is no tank in the party. I hope you can still contribute to the game, though."
This isn't an MMO. No one actually has to tank. In fact, due to the random nature of PFS grouping, it's entirely likely that there is no tank in a given group. If player A hasn't built his character with that in mind, then he's got other troubles.
|
I think that what causes a lot of this issue and attitude about buying a healing wand, is that some people, like myself, come from mostly private home games, where resources can be shared and a group fund can exist. This is basically a disconnect between two play styles. In all of the games in recent memory we never sold/sell scrolls or wands because of their potential utility. This is never an option in PFS, so one of the facets of the PFSOP campaign I had to get used to was the new distribution of resources.
What a lot of people fail to recognize is that you don't get a lot of spells in a day. If the only healing is one PCs spells, everyone is screwed. I love magic characters but I almost never play full casters so I never saw how quickly you can run out of spells, especially at low levels. It was only in playing my druid that I realized how tight that resource is. Consumables make a good way to make up that discrepancy, but you can't expect the player of the cleric to shoulder all of that monetary responsibility.
All of that aside, I think the OP has a reasonable complaint. The form of your healing shouldn't matter. People taking issue because he didn't have a wand specifically, which if you read his post was what actually happened to him, is stupid. He ran out of potions, he explicitly did not fail to provide for his healing. At worst he underestimated how much healing he would need.
|
|
IF your tanking with something other then AC...like say crane wing or HP, then listing AC isn't a description of you character. And if you think poor build choices = a poor character, then you are mistaken. Poor build choices are fine as long as YOU are willing to live with them. When your asking for others to supplement your poor choice is when your being a jerk.
I didn't give a detailed description of the character because it was never the primary issue of the post. The fact that you chose to make false assumptions about my character then make arguments based on those false assumptions isn't my fault. I do not owe you a justification for your false assumptions, nor are your standards of what is and is not a sufficient build relavent since you are not actually one of those people sitting at my table. Builds are relative, not absolute.
|
|
At worst he underestimated how much healing he would need.That's the thing, though. It's kind of like a fighter buying only 5 arrows for his backup bow. "I only use it for emergencies, I didn't think we'd be fighting that many fliers!"
The cost is negligible, so why not prepare for the worst?
So how many Potions is "enough?" 20? 100? 2000? Seriously. My point is that, from my perspective, the OP made a minor mistake and did not have enough healing and when he asked for a little supplement in healing, he was told, in effect, "No, your choice for healing is wrong. Despite the game offering numerous way to gain healing you must use this one and only method, or else you are a jerk."
What if I run through all of the remaining charges on my wand in a session? Are you going to deny me some healing to help out? Are you going to call me a jerk for that? Cost aside, Potions of Cure Light Wounds and charges from a Wand of Cure Light Wounds are numerically identical.
Also we have no way of knowing how many potions he had, at least I did not see it listed by the OP at any point. So for all we know he started that Scenario with 50, the exact same healing as is available from a fully charged Wand. Tell me what the difference is, aside from the fact that he can use those potions himself, while the wand is dependant on a character who can use it being present.
|
|
If player A and Player B are both melee, how is Player B "tanking?" Is player B standing in the way of Player A? Is player B eating AOOs that may or may not need to be eaten? This isn't WoW where one person holds aggro while everyone else pounds on the boss. How is player B getting the enemies to attack his heavily armored hide when there's a nice, squishy player A poking him as well? Is the GM just playing along and saying "OK, my NPC has a 16 intelligence, but I'll play him like a mindless undead and keep attacking the first thing he saw anyway?" Is he taking the lead through the door, accepting that he's most likely to get hit in the inevitable surprise-round-that-the-GM-didn't-give-us-a-chance-to-avoid with-readied-actions-made-out-of-combat-by-NPCs-even-though-you-can't-ready -actions-out-of-combat? Good for him, but that still doesn't entitle him to my resources. And, maybe there's a better way than just walking in and accepting your lumps?
Generally I am the player B in your example. I made a character with high AC and HP and skills to actively take damage meant for other people. I pay for my own healing: It's the kind of character I wanted to play and it's a cost of playing that way. I'm not doing anyone any favors, I'm not doing anything more special than anyone else in the group is doing, I'm just playing my character in the way I want to play him in a way that I think will lead to a successful mission. I'm not entitled to other peoples' resources just because I chose this playing style. If I felt put out by having to spend my own resources as a result of playing the way I chose to, well, I'd stop playing the character.
So, no. I still hold that you are responsible for your own character's expenses regardless of whether they're for armor or weapons or ammunition or Restorations or wands of CLW. It's all the same and it's all your own responsibility.
You really are focused on refusing to see the forest for the trees, aren't you?
|
Ok I've read through this topic a bit but not all of it... apologies in advance if this has been covered by someone.
For the people who are arguing that a CLW (or Infernal Healing) wand should not be mandatory... what do you do when there is no cleric/oracle in the group? Of all the PFS games I've played we've only had a "healer" in the group maybe 20% of the time.
Otherwise what do you do when the best healing you have in the group is a level 4 ranger? I don't know about all of you, but having a CLW wand allows a lot more classes to patch you up between fights when you don't have someone with multiple channels or healing spells.
And no I would never expect that level 4 ranger to heal anyone in combat except for life-and-death situations. That's the point where everyone takes care of themselves the best they can and play more conservatively (which entails having a few CLW wands and healing potions bought with PP).
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
sure! or here, let me use yours for you.I rolled a 1 for UMD on my CLW wand, can I borrow yours?
1d20 +9
This reminded me of one game I played where we had two sorcerers with CLW wands as our only healing. The Gnome 'jammed' her wand and then I 'jammed' mine. She was lamenting that we were out of healing, until I politely pointed out that we could just switch wands and pray we didn't roll two more ones...
:-)
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'll work on keeping you up during combat. If you have resources that you want me to use on you in combat (wand of enlarge person, etc), I'll do that happily. If you run out of potions or your wand burns out, I'll toss you some charges. If you don't provide a single way of healing yourself, then I'll take care of you for one game, and then ask to be at a different table in the future.
|
|
sure! or here, let me use yours for you.I rolled a 1 for UMD on my CLW wand, can I borrow yours?
1d20 +9
This reminded me of one game I played where we had two sorcerers with CLW wands as our only healing. The Gnome 'jammed' her wand and then I 'jammed' mine. She was lamenting that we were out of healing, until I politely pointed out that we could just switch wands and pray we didn't roll two more ones...
:-)
And once again, this points out why it's good to have extra wands at the table. It's also why I have a +19 on UMD for my level 6 sorcerer, so I now succeed even on a natural 1 and don't have to roll to use any wand of any spell.
|
|
And once again, this points out why it's good to have extra wands at the table. It's also why I have a +19 on UMD for my level 6 sorcerer, so I now succeed even on a natural 1 and don't have to roll to use any wand of any spell.sure! or here, let me use yours for you.I rolled a 1 for UMD on my CLW wand, can I borrow yours?
1d20 +9
This reminded me of one game I played where we had two sorcerers with CLW wands as our only healing. The Gnome 'jammed' her wand and then I 'jammed' mine. She was lamenting that we were out of healing, until I politely pointed out that we could just switch wands and pray we didn't roll two more ones...
:-)
That's doggone handy! What are your favorite wands to carry around?
(sorry for the derail)
|
|
I am brand new to pathfinder society, how much does it cost to buy a wand of cure light?
It costs 750 gold (don't do that) or two prestige (this is the good option). Two prestige gets you any item of up to 750 gold. Common choices are first level wands, multiple copies of higher level scrolls, a darkwood composite longbow with the appropriate strength mod, or a single scroll of up to 4th level.
Prestige can also be used for boons (such as owning a house, etc) or for spellcasting services, such as raise dead.
|
|
And once again, this points out why it's good to have extra wands at the table. It's also why I have a +19 on UMD for my level 6 sorcerer, so I now succeed even on a natural 1 and don't have to roll to use any wand of any spell.sure! or here, let me use yours for you.I rolled a 1 for UMD on my CLW wand, can I borrow yours?
1d20 +9
This reminded me of one game I played where we had two sorcerers with CLW wands as our only healing. The Gnome 'jammed' her wand and then I 'jammed' mine. She was lamenting that we were out of healing, until I politely pointed out that we could just switch wands and pray we didn't roll two more ones...
:-)
That's doggone handy! What are your favorite wands to carry around?
(sorry for the derail)
I actually haven't started a collection of wands for him. I have quite a few scrolls of wizard/sorc spells, but I only just hit the UMD high enough to cast other class spells without rolling, and I don't play that PC very often recently, so I haven't really looked into what wands would be good to pick up. I'm thinking Protection from Evil might be a nice one to have for only 2 PA.
|
|
I now succeed even on a natural 1 and don't have to roll to use any wand of any spell.I thought that with UMD rolling a natural 1 is an auto fail/24 hour jam, regardless of your modifier?
Taken straight from my handy-dandy misunderstood rules thread on our local forums:
14. When using Use Magic Device to activate something, you do not automatically fail on a natural 1 (just like any other skill). If you do fail the check and roll a natural 1, then you cannot activate the item using Use Magic Device for 24 hours.
Sources: d20pfsrd. Paizo PRD. Core Rulebook pg. 109
If you actually look back, interestingly enough it's the same rule in 3.5.
|
|
Where do I find these rules/stats to buy
Pricing of items can be found in the Core Rule book, or on the reference document here on paizo. How you can spend PA can be found in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play. If you have any other questions, ask away!
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
|
I am brand new to pathfinder society, how much does it cost to buy a wand of cure light?It costs 750 gold (don't do that) or two prestige (this is the good option). Two prestige gets you any item of up to 750 gold. Common choices are first level wands, multiple copies of higher level scrolls, a darkwood composite longbow with the appropriate strength mod, or a single scroll of up to 4th level.
Don't forget potions or oils of 3rd-level spells. *cough*fly and daylight*cough*