
Baptor1337 |

Here's the thing, I love the concept of the Wizard class. I always have. Ever since my first wizard in AD&D (who was terrible because I did not know magic that well), I've loved them.
What I cant STAND, however, is spell preparation. Is it just me, or is the notion that the Wizard is the most versatile spell caster kind of a farce?
It's like you have the POTENTIAL to cast anything, but the bitter truth is you won't be able to.
Either you'll prepare a lot of combat spells and almost no utility and be essentially a poor Sorcerer.
Or you'll prepare a wide selection of potentially useful spells, have no combat usefulness, and maybe not even encounter a situation where said utility spells are needed.
Sure, I can prepare a knock instead of a scorching ray, but which is likely to be used in a given day? And don't we have rogues to pick locks?
The supposed versatility of the wizard is really a farce because while you might know every single spell, you are still limited to what you prepare in the morning, and who knows what a day may bring?
I'd love to let wizards set their "spells known" through preparation (kind of like the spell points variant) and cast spontaneously from that list, but as everyone knows, that kills the Sorcerer, and I like that class too. Any idea I think of will kill the Sorcerer.
I like both classes and wish to keep both, but Spell Prep is dragging me down.
Community, here's what I'd like to hear from you: Either a fix for the wizard to make them more useful (but not destroy the Sorc), or to hear stories of Wizards making Spell Prep shine and proving my argument wrong.
If you chime in as pro-Spell Prep, please give in-game examples, no theories. As I said, the wizard is powerful...in theory, but in practice I've only seen lackluster results.

Paulicus |

I always leave a few slots open of different levels with my wizard, anad it's really useful for having that one spell you really need, that you wouldn't normally prepare, and needs more power than a scroll. You can also use it to regain a useful spell you used up. Grabbing the Fast Study arcane discovery at level 5 really helps with this.
Edit: Knock is a perfect spell for a scroll.

Baptor1337 |

I had thought about the scrolls. It would certainly take time to build up, but you could do it.
Leaving slots open? I hate to sound like a newb, but I've played (mostly DM) for many years and never heard of this rule. I'm sure it exists, but I'm shocked my players never found it and used it as wizards. So, you can leave slots open and stick spells into them later?
Oh, and yes I'm serious. I've had plenty of players play successful wizards in my games, but they've never really been any better than a Sorcerer would have. For example I had a guy play an Evoker from 1-19. He was quite good at strategy and using area-effect damage spells. For all his brilliance, though, I could not help noticing he would have been that much more powerful if he had been a Sorcerer with a bunch of evocations. In many cases I've noticed that about the wizards my players have. They develop their caster around a specific set of spells and get very good at them. So for my money I say a Sorcerer is much better.

Paulicus |

Most of my money goes towards scrolls and my spellbook.
I'm not exactly sure where it's written (though I'm sure someone will quote it soon), but preparing spells for a wizard takes a minimum of 15 minutes for a single spell, and upward to an hour depending on how many slots are filled. The Fast Study discovery changes this to 1 minute and 15 minutes, respectively.
I haven't played many casters before this one, but my understanding is sorcerers tend to make better blasters than wizards, being able to choose spells on the fly and make better use of metamagic feats. Personally, I prefer battlefield control (pits, web, illusions, summons, etc.) and buffs to help my allies win. I think that's where wizards shine, as a force multiplier.

Baptor1337 |

I haven't played many casters before this one, but my understanding is sorcerers tend to make better blasters than wizards, being able to choose spells on the fly and make better use of metamagic feats. Personally, I prefer battlefield control (pits, web, illusions, summons, etc.) and buffs to help my allies win. I think that's where wizards shine, as a force multiplier.
I see what your're getting at here, but my point remains. If you want to build a caster around certain spells, such as the controller you mentioned who uses things like web, stinking cloud, summons, etc. You could just make a Sorcerer who has those spells and have tons of them. Nowhere does it say Sorcs are good only for blasting.
If I wanted to make an Enchanter under the RAW, for example, I would make a Sorcerer and simply select the best enchantments/illusions I could find, and possible a bloodline that augmented them. Such an "Enchanter" would almost certainly outclass the wizard specialist of the same name. Am I wrong?

Lanassa |
For spell preparation, see section "Magic" in the PRD:
When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, he can repeat the preparation process as often as he likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. He cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because he has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of his spells.
Hope this convinces you :-)

DMDark |
I love wizards and I love spell prep. I love that finding a scroll means I have a new spell in my book and the wizardly thing to do in a settlement is to hide away scribing scrolls.
First of all scrolls are your friends. As mentioned above they should be your situational spells. I have a scroll of invisibility and expeditious retreat at hand at all times. Because I don't want to die! But I don't want them filling spell slots all the time.
As for the prep itself. Think about where you are, what you're about to do. Speak to your party before preparation and get an idea on what your going to prepare for. Get lots of ranks in knowledge skills and make a check for where your going, your DM might mention lots of locked doors, undead or fire elementals.
Never pick super situationals. You're not meant to be this powerful jack of all trades. Wizards are best at excelling at one thing on any given day. Choose if you want to deal damage, control the battlefield or support your allies. Prep spells around your mood.
Wizards can change the roll they wish to fulfil from day to day. That is what makes them versatile. And if you see a new spell and think. I want to try that. Buy a scroll. If you like it. Write it into your spell book!
I apologise of any mistakes, english wise. I'm on my phone and it likes to change things!

![]() |

My last Wizard had the Spellbinder archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/elf/spellbinder-wizard-elf) and made use of Fast Study (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wiz ard-archetypes/arcane-discoveries/fast-study) leaving a couple spell slots open for situations i did not prepare for ahead of time. Also other than situational scrolls i used cheap as possible wands for buffs, Mage Armor primarily, and blasting, Magic Missile primarily, that worked at character level because of Staff-Like Wand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wiz ard-archetypes/arcane-discoveries/staff-like-wand). Not to mention the character went Admixture Evocation with a single level of Crossblooded Sorcerer. The bloodlines for Sorcerer btw was Orc and Draconic focusing on acid spells since most things i observed dont have resist/immunities to hit till way later on.

Sangalor |

Paulicus wrote:
I haven't played many casters before this one, but my understanding is sorcerers tend to make better blasters than wizards, being able to choose spells on the fly and make better use of metamagic feats. Personally, I prefer battlefield control (pits, web, illusions, summons, etc.) and buffs to help my allies win. I think that's where wizards shine, as a force multiplier.I see what your're getting at here, but my point remains. If you want to build a caster around certain spells, such as the controller you mentioned who uses things like web, stinking cloud, summons, etc. You could just make a Sorcerer who has those spells and have tons of them. Nowhere does it say Sorcs are good only for blasting.
If I wanted to make an Enchanter under the RAW, for example, I would make a Sorcerer and simply select the best enchantments/illusions I could find, and possible a bloodline that augmented them. Such an "Enchanter" would almost certainly outclass the wizard specialist of the same name. Am I wrong?
Perfect spell (feat) lets you select one spell that you can spontaneously convert other spells into, you can even apply metamagic on the fly to it. I love this option because though it costs you feats, in the end there are typically only a few spells that you would *always* like to have available (e.g. shield, scorching ray, haste, fireball, dragon breath or black tentacles... Add elemental spell to convert your favourite blast spell into something more adequate for situations...)
Also, an amulet of magecraft would seem almost perfect for you:
A universalist wizard who selects the amulet as his bonded object may choose one school of spells each day when he prepares spells. He then can use the necklace to spontaneously convert any prepared wizard spell of that school into any other wizard spell of that school he knows; the desired spell must be of the same level or lower than the prepared spell. For example, if the wizard chose “evocation” when he prepared his spells that morning, until the next time he prepares spells, he can spontaneously convert a prepared fireball into any other evocation wizard spell of 3rd level or lower that he knows.
Craft it yourself, make it slotless - and wear several ones ;-) Or combine them in one item - nothing in the rules prohibits it.
Otherwise scrolls and magic items in general - and fast study - are your friend.Finally, it may actually be that a sorcerer is what is best for you. Why would you not like it then? If you want to play a smart instead of a charismatic one, you could pick the sage archetype and have everything operate on intelligence (like a wizard).

Ecaterina Ducaird |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

Ahh.... yee olde sorc vs wizard debate. How I have missed you. You always smell like cinnamon and vanilla....
Short form. The utility of a wizard being able to prepare spells from a vast spellbook depends on how much information said wizard can gain on where they are going.
A Kitsune, Fey / Infernal cross blooded Enchantment (or something similar, I'm not trawling through them all looking for perfect ideal) focussed sorc will leave the DCs of an enchantment focused wizard in the dust. They will have (marginally) more spells per day. They get said spells a little later, but pound for pound, I'd put my money on the sorc there...
...RIGHT up until he runs into somewhere that is inhabitted by nothing more than mindless creatures, undead and other critters that make all his charm / dominate spells nothing more than flash and glitter. At that point, the wizard giggles, calls a rest for 8 hours and walks out packing fireballs, disintegrates, enervations and whatever else takes his fancy. He loses most likely a few focus feats that apply to his DCs, but is still packing his max level spells. An Enchant focused sorc may not be able to bring those slots to bear. Similar arguments apply with your Half orc, Draconic (Red) sorc when you move your adventure to the plane of fire for a week and a half.
And look... to be honest, some of the above probably is a generalisation. I'm sure that someone is going to come up with a build 3 posts down that gives godlike DCs to an enchantment focused wizard via some obscure class / feat / archetype combination and someone else will start gibbering on about Thanopic spell or whatever.... But you get my drift.
The ability to truely exploit that 'preparedness' of a wizard, you need to have
a) The ability to gain information on what you're facing before you walk in there.
b) Time to do something about it.
A) primarily comes down to the GM setting up a campaign to support it. Eg. Allowing people to roll knowledge checks on "The palace of endless delights" to find out what inhabited it in the past, AND what might have taken up residency recently.
B) comes down to knowing at either the start of the day, leaving slots open and having INCREDIBLE scouting, or taking fast study and having just EXCELLENT scouting instead.

Drachasor |
Spell Preparation is terrible.
Having no limit on the number of spells you know...that's awesome.
Crafting is the best way to even things out. Though Preferred and Perfect Spell can help some too. I don't think the mentioned amulet above is worth the crappiness of being a generalist -- the amulet is a bit too limited, imho.

PathlessBeth |
The wizard is just a sorcerer who gets to re-pick their build every day. What you've repeatedly said: that anything a wizard could do could also have been done by a sorcerer with similar spells, is true. The difference is that when a sorcerer wants to adjust spells for a different situation, they have to completely rebuild their character (which they usually can't do), whereas a wizard can do it easily. A wizard is a sorcerer who gets to polymorph into a different sorcerer each day.

Butch A. |

Another reason you might be seeing the wizard as less powerful is if you restrict your gaming to 'combat encounter' days.
That sorcerer with the awesome spontaneous spell list isn't probably going to have taken things like Shrink Item,Blood Biography, Locate Object, Treasure Map as one of their few, always available slots.
On the other hand, the wizard can still be useful on 'fight day', but he figured out who the victim was, who killed him, and where the murder weapon was BEFORE 'fight day', and after fight day, he located the hidden treasure, and then shrank it down for easy transportation back to town.
While 'same day' flexible preparation is awesome (particularly with Fast Study), the 'utility wizard' really shines a LOT on those days devoted to investigation, preparation, interaction, and other activities.
A sorcerer or bard has to pick spells which he has available all the time, every day, rain or shine. That means those classes are very unlikely to pick up those situational spells which are useless most of the time, and really, really good on certain occasions.
Those same spells are the bread and butter of a wizard, or they should be, in my opinion. Now, if your game is 'all combat, all the time", or even "we could be attacked at any moment, and usually are", the wizard is going to seem less useful*. But in a game with a reasonable balance of 'non-adventuring' days, where research, preparation, travel, and other activities are also important, I find the wizard to be amazing.
*Not that there is anything wrong with this playstyle. It can even be a very realistic roleplaying style. Maybe your town is under siege, or you are hidden in occupied territory. But if you ASSUME a game where combat can and does break out at any time, then combat-oriented characters who do not require preparation or equipment ARE going to be more useful.

strayshift |
Ahh.... yee olde sorc vs wizard debate. How I have missed you. You always smell like cinnamon and vanilla....
Short form. The utility of a wizard being able to prepare spells from a vast spellbook depends on how much information said wizard can gain on where they are going.
A Kitsune, Fey / Infernal cross blooded Enchantment (or something similar, I'm not trawling through them all looking for perfect ideal) focussed sorc will leave the DCs of an enchantment focused wizard in the dust. They will have (marginally) more spells per day. They get said spells a little later, but pound for pound, I'd put my money on the sorc there...
...RIGHT up until he runs into somewhere that is inhabitted by nothing more than mindless creatures, undead and other critters that make all his charm / dominate spells nothing more than flash and glitter. At that point, the wizard giggles, calls a rest for 8 hours and walks out packing fireballs, disintegrates, enervations and whatever else takes his fancy. He loses most likely a few focus feats that apply to his DCs, but is still packing his max level spells. An Enchant focused sorc may not be able to bring those slots to bear. Similar arguments apply with your Half orc, Draconic (Red) sorc when you move your adventure to the plane of fire for a week and a half.
And look... to be honest, some of the above probably is a generalisation. I'm sure that someone is going to come up with a build 3 posts down that gives godlike DCs to an enchantment focused wizard via some obscure class / feat / archetype combination and someone else will start gibbering on about Thanopic spell or whatever.... But you get my drift.
The ability to truely exploit that 'preparedness' of a wizard, you need to have
a) The ability to gain information on what you're facing before you walk in there.
b) Time to do something about it.A) primarily comes down to the GM setting up a campaign to support it. Eg. Allowing people to roll knowledge checks on "The palace of endless...
Agree with the bulk of this and I do think it comes down to how your DM handles intelligence gathering and the types of dungeon hazards you face. This broadens the parameters of spell use for the game and makes bloodlines like the dreamspun & visionary much more relevant. Likewise if your game is focussed principally on combat utility spells which overcome hazards such as chasms, swamps, cliffs, etc. again are not relevant. I hugely favour Sorcerers (not just in Pathfinder) so concede a bias, but will make the point it really does take Intelligence to play a wizard through a multi-encounter, diverse hazard environment/dungeon. A well designed Sorcerer contributes much more generally in my experience.

7heprofessor |
It's only as good as the GM allows it to be. A wizard needs to basically guess at what she's going to be encountering that day and that typically involves research. If the party is hired to travel to the desert of despair, the wizard can look up what is in that desert and prepare her spells accordingly.
If the DM is constantly surprising the party with random stuff, than it loses a bit of its potency. That is not to say that it's not powerful, though. Most wizards have an escape plan memorized so they can deal with just about anything.
Either way...just my 2 cp.

PathlessBeth |
It's only as good as the GM allows it to be. A wizard needs to basically guess at what she's going to be encountering that day and that typically involves research. If the party is hired to travel to the desert of despair, the wizard can look up what is in that desert and prepare her spells accordingly.
If the DM is constantly surprising the party with random stuff, than it loses a bit of its potency. That is not to say that it's not powerful, though. Most wizards have an escape plan memorized so they can deal with just about anything.
Either way...just my 2 cp.
But the sorcerer has the exact same problem--they need to guess what spells will be useful to them when they pick their spells. The difference is that the wizard has to guess what is coming one day ahead, while the sorcerer has to guess what is coming for the entire campaign. The sorcerer has a much harder time having the right spell for the job. The notion that the sorcerer doesn't have to guess what is coming ahead of time is completely illusory.

Drachasor |
But the sorcerer has the exact same problem--they need to guess what spells will be useful to them when they pick their spells. The difference is that the wizard has to guess what is coming one day ahead, while the sorcerer has to guess what is coming for the entire campaign. The sorcerer has a much harder time having the right spell for the job. The notion that the sorcerer doesn't have to guess what is coming ahead of time is completely illusory.
Well, except humans get a ton of knowns. Anyone using Paragon Surge can get a ton. And there's now a Robe that lets you have a spellbook/scrolls and use them to essentially spontaneously know a spell for one casting (without consuming any resources beyond the daily use).
Sorcerers are pretty good now. Though I like the school benefits of Wizards a lot more.

Baptor1337 |

Well, except humans get a ton of knowns. Anyone using Paragon Surge can get a ton. And there's now a Robe that lets you have a spellbook/scrolls and use them to essentially spontaneously know a spell for one casting (without consuming any resources beyond the daily use).
Sorcerers are pretty good now. Though I like the school benefits of Wizards a lot more.
You've got to be kidding. I just looked that up, and you're right. Human Sorcerers can get a bonus spell known as a Favored Class every level? Ridiculous. That just makes Sorcs even better than I previously mentioned. Way better.
Again, tis true that Wizards have great potential, but from what I've seen posted here, it takes special situations and unusual circumstances for that to really show. In the end they are very limited if dropped into any given situation compared to the Sorcerer. With this new feature in Races, an Arcane Sorcerer would have an obscene amount of spells known at his disposal. Enough, imho, to get every truly useful spell in the PHB.Making Wizards capable of minor spontaneous spellcasting no longer seems as broken an idea as I once thought.

Oliver McShade |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

I good DM, will usually ask for the wizard & cleric spell list at the being of the game.
Then throw in some opportunity for these spell to be useful to the group.
Sometime, they pick up on this, sometimes they don't and the spells are not used.
At least that how i do it, since old school, all caster use to work that way.

Baptor1337 |

I good DM, will usually ask for the wizard & cleric spell list at the being of the game.
Then throw in some opportunity for these spell to be useful to the group.
Sometime, they pick up on this, sometimes they don't and the spells are not used.At least that how i do it, since old school, all caster use to work that way.
I know it's not the opinion of everyone here, but to me, if you've got to alter your game just to make a class viable, that class is broken.

![]() |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

I share the same opinion as the OP. I prefer sorcerer over wizard simply because I don't have to prepare spells. I like the idea that if I know something, it will always be available to me. The thought that there might be a situation that comes up where I need a certain spell that I know but was not prepared for just makes me feel helpless.
"So you wanted to return to the material plane before being covered in lava? Well I know plane shift, but I did not know we would fail a save and be sent to Hell, so I did not prepare it. I also already used 12 spells today, so I am almost out."
I get the situational usefulness of the wizard, but for my playstyle I feel it is wasted. Every time I rest, I don't want to have to go over my spells and have to decide what is best for the day. I am indecisive already, adding in the choice of what spells to choose for a day just complicates things and I usually choose the easy route of just preparing the same thing. So for me the spontaneous caster is the right decision.
Another thing is when I do need that second casting of the same spell. I realize that there are power stones that will let you cast another prepared spell, but what if you don't have the money for one? On my druid I might have the need to cast multiple walls of stone, or some other utility spell. Unfortunately I prepared another spell in it's place, so now I am stuck with transmute rock to mud in an area with no rocks. Maybe I will need the spell later, but if not I really could have used another Wall of Stone.
Also as a human sorcerer, I find that I know to many spells of some levels. Plus with the added versatility of the shadow spells, It is not hard to provide both utility and blasting as a sorcerer. Sure you have to be more selective with your spells, but that just means you need to come up with creative uses and can experiment more times per day.
On a final note, I find that the Psionic characters have an even better advantage over sorcerers. Same general amount of spells per day, but they can use the spell points to cast whatever they need at the time. Some days you need more disintegrates then charm persons, but others the opposite holds true. Personally, my sorcerer rarely uses 1st and 2nd level spells, but I run out of 5th regularly. If there was a way to expend 5 1st to cast a 5th, I would gladly take that route. On that note, maybe I should look into word casting (which seems really complicated and intimidating).

insaneogeddon |
Flexibility = all you could do
Nothing you can do matters if you get the chop before you get to act.
Wizards are GENIUSES, they research, predict, divine and prepare. Of you play this way (and have the skill to) they are the most effective.
Plenty of people play wizards like a first person shooter and with about as much vision and wit, they don't fare so well.
That said as in dnd smart players ideas aren't vetoed by the DM if they transcend their characters IQs its pretty easy for a int 6 fighter played by a int 14 person to blind side and surprise a int 18 wizard played by a int 12 person and basically take them unprepared with their pants down.
IQ is about (int + wis / 2) x 10 and you can kind of stop the above if your a 'harsh dm' and disallow IQ 60 character coming up with IQ 100 tactics, tricks, strategy, plans and ideas but that rarely happens.

![]() |

It seems like this thread is breaking down. The OP and the others that agree with him are basically just ignoring what makes a wizard flexible. When told about the "empty slot" rule it was mostly ignored. That right there is one of the pillars of the wizard flexibility argument. The second thing that was mostly ignored was scribing scrolls. A lot of pro-sorcerer posters basically just said that was too hard or time consuming.
I can understand that you may feel that a sorcerer is simply better, but ignoring all the key reasons why a wizard is more flexible does not mean that the sorcerer is. As many people have already posted the wizard is more flexible because they can leave spell slots open to get just the spell they need, and can have many more spells known that are converted to scrolls for when necessary. I don't see how anyone could argue anything different?

Zhayne |

Spell Prep is generally superior to Spontaneous Casting, yes.
However, I prefer spontaneous casting because of what I envision when I think of magic. You learn a spell, and you just know it. You don't forget it when you cast it, and those spells you know, you can cast a lot. The open slot rule is nice, but sometimes you just need to cast three (insert spell)s *now*.

![]() |

Spell Prep is generally superior to Spontaneous Casting, yes.
However, I prefer spontaneous casting because of what I envision when I think of magic. You learn a spell, and you just know it. You don't forget it when you cast it, and those spells you know, you can cast a lot. The open slot rule is nice, but sometimes you just need to cast three (insert spell)s *now*.
I agree with this.
Prepared casting is generally more flexible and powerful, and leaving open slots is important for prepared casters, but I prefer spontaneous casters, and there are cases where having to cast a spell multiple times comes up.
Also, depending on play style, you may [often] have to cast a spell without having 15 minutes available to prepare it.

master_marshmallow |

Sorcerers are a lot less work to be effective, and as such are easier to play and do well with.
Wizards are really easy to screw up, but when played correctly are blatantly superior with the main exception being a half elf sorcerer using paragon surge to cheese his way into having any spell he wants on the fly.
Wizard Utility spells are there to 'replace' the rogue, that is, if you don't have a rogue you can still get the jobs done. Detect spells, knock, and the like are very useful but not the optimal choice to burn one of you precious spells known as a sorcerer.
Open spell slots and scrolls really make the wizard better completely. Scrolls are really good for spells who's CL doesn't matter, unless you are a 10th level scrollmaster.
Spell preparation comes down to skill. I sound like I'm coming down on sorcerers when I say this, but wizards really require more skill than sorcerers do. Less spells per day, but wider access means you have to know what you are doing, especially when you have to prepare. Sorcerers only have book work to do when they level, which is fine, but the simplicity has a downside.
The key is to know what spells not to prepare, rather than what spells to prepare. Always leave at least one spell slot open of every level in case you need something, and prepare your combat spells based on your terrain (your scout should be helping with this). Scrolls make excellent extra blasts of MM or spells that don't really rely on CL like shield or mage armor. Scorching Ray is another good one to have scrolls of, because until you want more than one ray, its CL doesn't impact the usefulness of the scroll.
I will always say that people who think sorcerers are superior are just lazier.

strayshift |
I've played both. I am not lazy and know the rules to a nuanced degree. I still prefer Sorcerers because I generally end up doing far more over the course of an adventure. Wizards to me, unless they can prepare to the 'nth' degree simply never have enough relevant spells memorised for the entire party/adventure (because you never know when you can rest next or need to cast a number of spells) whereas sorcerers (I find) do much more, especially with a good selection of spells and metamagics.
Regarding the thread, it does come down to player style and ability. I do think the rules are help wizards become almost equal (according to my play style). Yes this was slightly tongue in cheek.

Kydeem de'Morcaine |

... If you want to build a caster around certain spells, such as the controller you mentioned who uses things like web, stinking cloud, summons, etc. You could just make a Sorcerer who has those spells and have tons of them...
I think this is the hang-up right here. Yes if you only want a few spells, the sorc is ideal. However, there are scores of controlling spells (just as an example). So even if you say you want to be a primarily controlling wizard, you still might want to have way more spells than any sorc can learn. And if you say, “I want to be a controlling caster, but I want to have the utility spells and buffs available for when that is the better choice” then you will have an extremely hard time doing that with a sorc.
Don’t get me wrong, I love the sorc and am much more likely to play that than a wizard. In many situations, either can work. In some situations one is clearly better than the other.
In a previous campaign… No matter what investigating or spying we tried, the GM would rarely let us find out enough specific information to tailor our spell selections for the specific competition we faced. The AP write up always had us under terrific time pressure. Rarely was there 15 minutes of peace once we had learned enough to pick the correct spell. The group never wanted to sit around while I prepared spells or actually ‘plan’ much of anything. So my wizard almost always had the same selection of general spells. In that campaign, with that GM, and that group my wizard was a flop and a sorc would have done much better.
However, I played in another intrigue heavy game. One of the PC’s was a spy with a whole bevy of paid informants. If we were clever enough we could get fairly extensive info on the opposition. The group loved to plan things out in exhaustive detail. It was a sand-box that we could often set our schedule so there was time to ensure the caster had the right spells at the right time. In that campaign, with that GM, and that group the guy playing the wizard was nearly an unstoppable force.

![]() |

Zhayne, the "forget" wording has been gone from the game for years. Please don't continue to use it. x.x;
If your looking for proper wizarding it deals a lot more with not spell preparation but simply preparation in general. Actually doing research on what your going to be doing/dealing with on a given day/week/year/adventure and so forth. Using your divination spells, knowing what kinds of questions to ask those beings in the outer planes, etc.
Having the right answer to the right question at the right time, even if the question is What do you do when your unprepared?

master_marshmallow |

There IS something to be said for simplicity. I would be willing to make the argument that the wizard is far more complicated than it should be; that level of required system mastery is a drawback, not a feature.
And I would say you're mistaken there. If system mastery is a factor in determining which class is better, then you have a different problem.

sunshadow21 |

The only problem I have with leaving slots open is that you don't necessarily have time to fill them once you know what you need. Most DMs run encounters that measure time in rounds, or at most minutes, and you often don't have the time needed to actually prep the spell. Even with fast study, you still need to be able to break out of the scene to prep the spell, and that often isn't an option either. This doesn't mean that leaving slots open is bad, just that like everything else with the wizard, it's highly dependent on knowing whats coming ahead of time. When you have the time, party, and DM to fully investigate and prepare, the wizard wins every time, but wizard PCs rarely have that luxury; their party members get impatient, the DM can't/won't give out appropriate information effectively, the party is simply too busy to slow down that much, encounter details limit prep time, etc. For NPCs, wizards rule; for PCs, sorcerers do as well or better simply because the circumstances of adventuring are far better suited to their class. Adventure mode is simply not the optimal mode for a wizard, no matter how much you work to mitigate it.

master_marshmallow |

The only problem I have with leaving slots open is that you don't necessarily have time to fill them once you know what you need. Most DMs run encounters that measure time in rounds, or at most minutes, and you often don't have the time needed to actually prep the spell. Even with fast study, you still need to be able to break out of the scene to prep the spell, and that often isn't an option either. This doesn't mean that leaving slots open is bad, just that like everything else with the wizard, it's highly dependent on knowing whats coming ahead of time. When you have the time, party, and DM to fully investigate and prepare, the wizard wins every time, but wizard PCs rarely have that luxury; their party members get impatient, the DM can't/won't give out appropriate information effectively, the party is simply too busy to slow down that much, encounter details limit prep time, etc. For NPCs, wizards rule; for PCs, sorcerers do as well or better simply because the circumstances of adventuring are far better suited to their class. Adventure mode is simply not the optimal mode for a wizard, no matter how much you work to mitigate it.
What spells are you finding need for mid combat that you would not normally have prepared?

![]() |
137ben wrote:The wizard is just a sorcerer who gets to re-pick their build every day.Not quite true. If a sorcerer knows fireball, and he needs to cast it three times in one day: no problem! Unless the wizurd memorized three specific instances of fireball, then that IS a problem for him.
Actually if you were playing this week's build of D+D Next Ben would be exactly right.

![]() |
Leaving open slots isn't for the middle of combat...
It is to prep that utility spell that you "might" need but probabaly don't need... until you need it. Then, Viola! You have it in just a matter of minutes.
My rule of thumb... I load up the "kill the bad guy" and "save my life" stuff. It's the utilitarian stuff I leave off until I need it. I typicaly have one open slot (at least) per spell level to accomodate this.
Wizards are much more versatile than Sorcerers, period. They can change their spots, so to speak, every day if they so choose. A Sorcerer cannot.

Dr Grecko |

It's been said already. Open slots is where its at. All one needs is ONE first level spell as a preferred spell, and a wizard could leave ALL his spell slots open if he so desires. Of course, you wouldn't do this, but I'm making a point.
The wizard is about handling any situation if he has the time to prepare. The sorc is about handling any situation that he is currently prepared for. Subtle difference, and that really doesn't mean any one or the other is better.
My preference is for the wizard. Versatility and getting my spells a level earlier is just too good to pass up.

strayshift |
It's been said already. Open slots is where its at. All one needs is ONE first level spell as a preferred spell, and a wizard could leave ALL his spell slots open if he so desires. Of course, you wouldn't do this, but I'm making a point.
The wizard is about handling any situation if he has the time to prepare. The sorc is about handling any situation that he is currently prepared for. Subtle difference, and that really doesn't mean any one or the other is better.
My preference is for the wizard. Versatility and getting my spells a level earlier is just too good to pass up.
The ability to contribute to the entire party throughout the entire adventure is better than having say: one fly memorised, one haste, a couple of fireballs with pre-set metamagics, 2 invisibilities, 1 mirror image, etc, etc and so on.
An equivalent level Sorcerer can have most of those options and use them according to need as and when that need arises, with additional flexibility to the metamagic - that is a much better deal in my opinion, even with the slower spell level access thrown in.
strayshift |
strayshift wrote:The ability to contribute to the entire party throughout the entire adventure is better than...Both have the ability to do so. They do it in different ways, not better.
And it is largely a matter of playing style as well as how the DM responds to 'research/divination'.

Peet |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

It is to prep that utility spell that you "might" need but probabaly don't need... until you need it. Then, Viola! You have it in just a matter of minutes.
Normally violas are only used by bards. Same with any other stringed instrument. No reason that a wizard can't have ranks in Perform (viola) of course...

![]() |

TriOmegaZero wrote:And it is largely a matter of playing style as well as how the DM responds to 'research/divination'.strayshift wrote:The ability to contribute to the entire party throughout the entire adventure is better than...Both have the ability to do so. They do it in different ways, not better.
Exactly. Different playstyles, not better ones.

master_marshmallow |

Dr Grecko wrote:It's been said already. Open slots is where its at. All one needs is ONE first level spell as a preferred spell, and a wizard could leave ALL his spell slots open if he so desires. Of course, you wouldn't do this, but I'm making a point.
The wizard is about handling any situation if he has the time to prepare. The sorc is about handling any situation that he is currently prepared for. Subtle difference, and that really doesn't mean any one or the other is better.
My preference is for the wizard. Versatility and getting my spells a level earlier is just too good to pass up.
The ability to contribute to the entire party throughout the entire adventure is better than having say: one fly memorised, one haste, a couple of fireballs with pre-set metamagics, 2 invisibilities, 1 mirror image, etc, etc and so on.
An equivalent level Sorcerer can have most of those options and use them according to need as and when that need arises, with additional flexibility to the metamagic - that is a much better deal in my opinion, even with the slower spell level access thrown in.
Pearls of power do exist.

strayshift |
strayshift wrote:Exactly. Different playstyles, not better ones.TriOmegaZero wrote:And it is largely a matter of playing style as well as how the DM responds to 'research/divination'.strayshift wrote:The ability to contribute to the entire party throughout the entire adventure is better than...Both have the ability to do so. They do it in different ways, not better.
Can only speak for MY playstyle! :-P
Hence the use of the word 'better' i.e. better for me.In the group I play in we are pretty much split 50/50 on the spontaneous vs. preparation casters debate. We often tend to have both in reality and they are complimentary, it is a strange geeky aspect of this hobby that we engage in such debates and with such passion.

![]() |

...RIGHT up until he runs into somewhere that is inhabitted by nothing more than mindless creatures, undead and other critters that make all his charm / dominate spells nothing more than flash and glitter. At that point, the wizard giggles, calls a rest for 8 hours and walks out packing fireballs, disintegrates, enervations and whatever else takes his fancy. He loses most likely a few focus feats that apply to his DCs, but is still packing his max level spells. An Enchant focused sorc may not be able to bring those slots to bear. Similar arguments apply with your Half orc, Draconic (Red) sorc when you move your adventure to the plane of fire for a week and a half.
And the sorcerer giggle back and do the same thanks to this feat:
Versatile Spontaneity
You made a good name for yourself in the Pathfinder Society in part because you knew how to prepare for the challenges before you, even if your natural magical abilities lend themselves less to preparation and more to spontaneity.
Prerequisites: Int 13 or Wis 13 (see Special), ability to spontaneously cast 2nd-level spells.
Benefit: When you regain spell slots at the start of the day, you may opt to prepare one spell you don’t know in place of a daily spell slot 1 level higher than the prepared spell’s level. To do so, you must have access to the selected spell on a scroll or in a spellbook, and the spell must be on your spell list (even if it is not one of your spells known). This process takes 10 minutes per spell level of the selected spell. You can cast the selected spell a single time, expending the spell slot as though it were a known spell being cast by you. Preparing a spell in this manner expends a scroll but not a spellbook. A spell prepared in this way is considered its actual level rather than the level of the spell slot expended. You can apply metamagic feats to the spell as normal, as long as the spell’s actual level plus the increases from metamagic feats is 1 level lower than the highest-level spell you can cast. For example, a 12th-level sorcerer with this feat, a scroll of fireball, and the Empower Spell metamagic feat could prepare an empowered fireball spell in her 6th-level spell slot.
Special: If you spontaneously cast arcane spells, you must have an Intelligence score of at least 13 to take this feat. If you spontaneously cast divine spells, you must have a Wisdom score of at least 13 to take this feat. If you have both arcane and divine spellcasting classes, you can use this feat to prepare a spell using a given class’s spell slot as long as you meet the associated ability score prerequisite.
Or has pages of spell knowledge, a few of the vestment that allow you to use a scroll as a know spell once/day without consuming the scroll, or use paragon surge or the ring that add know spells.
The vaunted versatility advantage of the wizard has been eroded away step by step.

Buri |

Keep a healthy supply of divination scrolls with you so you can generally know in advance of going into an area what kind of enemies you'll face. Just a few of these can give great clarity to what to prep as well as asking the right questions. Evil outsiders covers a huge swathe of creatures, for example.

Peet |

Pearls of power do exist.
[u]Pages of Spell Knowledge[/u] also exist for Sorcerers. Same price as a pearl of power.
I used to think sorcerers were rather weak, until I read the class guide about them. In the class guide I read the main objection to sorcerers seemed to happen when a player tries to build a sorcerer as he would a wizard. Many spells that are good for sorcerers are not good for wizards, and vice versa.
Seriously, it all depends on the kind of caster you want to play. The tactic of leaving spell slots open rather than filling them all up at the start of the day can be brilliant, because you can pull out those obscure spells when a situation demands. There's a huge chasm and you need me to cast animate rope? Okay, give me a couple minutes. The sorcerer has to use consumables for such things. The Wizard has the chance to be a jack-of-all-spells.
With INT as his main stat he also has a lot of skill ranks and this can be very useful also; they have all knowledge skills as class skills. The odds that a wizard will know which spell to use in a given circumstance is much higher that a sorcerer; the sorcerer is probably only getting 2 or 3 skill ranks per level and after spellcraft, knowledge (arcana), and UMD he probably won't know very much.
Finally it's worth noting that wizards get access to spells 1 level earlier than sorcerers. This is the one thing that really annoys me about sorcerers. A module written for level 9 characters often will assume that the party has access to a teleport spell, but your sorcerer will have to wait until level 10.
I like sorcerers for the same reason that a lot of people here seem to; you don't need to spend nearly as much time rifling through books. With only a handful of spells you can have all the spell descriptions handy in advance. That really works for me. But if you're willing to put in the work a wizard can be quite useful.
Peet

sunshadow21 |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |

sunshadow21 wrote:The only problem I have with leaving slots open is that you don't necessarily have time to fill them once you know what you need. Most DMs run encounters that measure time in rounds, or at most minutes, and you often don't have the time needed to actually prep the spell. Even with fast study, you still need to be able to break out of the scene to prep the spell, and that often isn't an option either. This doesn't mean that leaving slots open is bad, just that like everything else with the wizard, it's highly dependent on knowing whats coming ahead of time. When you have the time, party, and DM to fully investigate and prepare, the wizard wins every time, but wizard PCs rarely have that luxury; their party members get impatient, the DM can't/won't give out appropriate information effectively, the party is simply too busy to slow down that much, encounter details limit prep time, etc. For NPCs, wizards rule; for PCs, sorcerers do as well or better simply because the circumstances of adventuring are far better suited to their class. Adventure mode is simply not the optimal mode for a wizard, no matter how much you work to mitigate it.What spells are you finding need for mid combat that you would not normally have prepared?
It's not just midcombat, but the middle of any scene. Especially in social situations, people aren't going to give you that kind of free time if they know you're a wizard precisely because they know what you can potentially do with it. Even if you have another party member covering for you, the other party is still going to notice the absence and be more prepared to deal with anything that comes after. In order to fill a slot without arousing a lot of suspicion, you, and often times your entire party alongside you, have to be able to disengage from the scene, something that will oftentimes arouse suspicion of it's own. This is the biggest problem wizards have; they have a great potential of versatility, but once in a scene, that versatility is gone, and their abilities are largely locked in for that scene and possibly the next few, depending how who and what they are interacting with. If the rest of the party can win a respite, the wizard can change things up, but that usually comes with its own costs and challenges that the entire party has to be willing to absorb. Sorcerers, on the other hand, can't completely change their suite of tricks, but they can bring all of them to every encounter without having to worry about accessing a different one in the middle of a scene.
This isn't to say that wizards are bad, just that truly potent wizards only come about in fairly specific circumstances. The player playing the wizard obviously has to be looking for every opportunity to play up their character's strengths, but the rest of the party, and the DM, have to be willing participants in that quest as well. The wizard requires time and opportunity, and neither of those are things entirely in the hands of a single player. Spontaneous casters, on the other hand, while limited in their spell selection, have a lot easier time using it effectively in the field under a wide range of conditions; even clerics and druids get spontaneous casting that allows them a decent amount of flexibility in the field.
Wizards are just plain tough to adventure with properly. They either require heavy aid from their party and/or DM, or they don't require the party at all, and the adventure is an entire spell long. Neither makes overly satisfying situations for one or more people at the table. Sorcerers on the other hand tend to be more fun overall for everyone because they still get a fair amount of magic power, but not of a type or power that would require a massive amount of effort to properly manage. The lack of spell preparation is a big part of this. Versatility in the field and in the moment tends to be more useful than potential versatility in the bigger picture, even if the former comes with a lot less potential. Potential is great, but harnessing the potential in the wizard class is something that I have almost never seen done effectively at the table; something almost always gets in the way. In the end, this leaves wizards not actually being all that more powerful in play than a sorcerer, thus leading to questions such as the OP. Just because they can potentially be stronger doesn't mean even half of that potential is ever reached.