There's a little spell called "Slow", you might want to look into that.
Just to be sure, you are aware it is only an extra attack on a full attack action. No extra spells, no extra attack if you move etc....
I ask because I have never heard of Haste being called broken...it makes me wonder.
As to how to fix it, high AC, mirror image, slow spell, invisibility, and any of a hundred other things can really slow down extra attacks. He'll even just moving will do it sometimes.
its one of the strongest spells for its level. I've seen suggestions before to move it to 4th level spell. That being said, unless you've got the 1 big bad guy vs your team (an easy encounter as it stands) haste shouldnt be what makes it cakewalk
Haste is a very good spell, but I don't think it's broken. I do think it's a standard buff in any party worth its salt. It's not just the kind of thing you should have access to, but also the kind of thing you should always expect from your opponents. Just like Fly, Invisibility, Summons, etc...
Haste also has the great benefit of being a party buff, which means it promotes team work instead of self-buffing casters. This alone makes it worthy of being much better than Fireball, for example.
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Put bluntly, if Haste is ruining all your encounters, your encounters need to be better designed.
There are some spells the game assumes you should have by a certain level. Fly is one. Haste is another.
It's a good spell. It's not gamebreaking.
Also, don't forget that no 2 targets can be more than 30ft apart. It's not unusual for players in my games to have to leave out 1 or 2 party members because the caster went second or third and the party has spread out.
Put bluntly, if Haste is ruining all your encounters, your encounters need to be better designed.
There are some spells the game assumes you should have by a certain level. Fly is one. Haste is another.
It's a good spell. It's not gamebreaking.
Well, maybe he's trying to move away from the must-have nature of haste. It's no fun when the party caster has to spend all their turns casting haste and fly to make sure the other party members are at full potential.
As an experiment, with one group I DMed, I told them they couldn't use haste for the whole adventure (I told them ahead of time, though, and made sre they were okay with it. I'm not the kind of person to suddenly ban a spell because it rubs me the wrong way.) It actually ended up being a lot of fun, and the melee characters still do a boatload of damage when they get to full attack; just not always one-turn kill potential.
Edit: For other problematic spells, I've tried balancing them by changing them to full-round actions (remember, that means it resolves on the begining of your next turn). I haven't done this for haste at all, but I did do it for most teleport spells, to reduce the safety of both PCs and enemies, which makes the game a bit more exciting. Always check with your players before doing something like that, however. It's no fun feeling like the GM is constantly trying to take your toys away.
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I've tried balancing them by changing them to full-round actions (remember, that means it resolves on the begining of your next turn).
Don't confuse casting times of "1 full-round action" with "1 full round". They're different, and there are spells of both sorts in the game.
Well, maybe he's trying to move away from the must-have nature of haste. It's no fun when the party caster has to spend all their turns casting haste and fly to make sure the other party members are at full potential.
As an experiment, with one group I DMed, I told them they couldn't use haste for the whole adventure (I told them ahead of time, though, and made sre they were okay with it. I'm not the kind of person to suddenly ban a spell because it rubs me the wrong way.) It actually ended up being a lot of fun, and the melee characters still do a boatload of damage when they get to full attack; just not always one-turn kill potential.
That's not what he's saying though.
And the spells aren't "must haves" but the game IS balanced with it in mind.
Encounters aren't broken with OR without it. It makes things easier, like all buffs, but not overly so.
Is anyone nerfing this? Looking to see other DM house rules, etc.
Yes, haste is too good. In my home campaign I've nerfed it to affect only 1 person. To give you an idea of how powerful it is, it's still easily the most selected level 3 spell. But at least other options make sense now.
Mass Haste is a level 6 spell. And yes Blessing of Fervor has also been nerfed. The game is better for it.
What specific situations has it made "incredibly easy"? Tell us about the last boss fight (party composition, the boss in question, how it played out).
I've tried balancing them by changing them to full-round actions (remember, that means it resolves on the begining of your next turn).Don't confuse casting times of "1 full-round action" with "1 full round". They're different, and there are spells of both sorts in the game.
That's what I meant. Just a slip of the fingers, since I'm so used to putting action after "full round"
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I find haste to be an exceptionally good spell not for the damage aspect (although it's still one of the highest damage spells in the game) but for its versatility. It is in my mind monk in a can. You get a huge boost to speed, making difficult terrain usually negligible. Jumps over cliffs or something (storming the diamond gate PFS scenario, saw a party trivialize a certain encounter with haste) with a +12 to your jump check. The bonus to AC, reflex, and attack, while minor, still add up, and when you can full attack it's basically giving flurry to a class that does more damage the flurry monks anyways. Yes haste is a good spell. It's normally among the first 3rd level spells (or second for those summoners) that I pick up on my casters, the few I play. In is the spell my +13 initiative 6th level Sorceror likes to cast at the beginning of almost every fight.
Many people suggest it to be the first spell of its spell level for most casters. Is it broken because of this? Is power attack broken? Does it add a huge chunk of damage and is a staple fr a vast quantity of melee damage dealers? It is good, but it can be combatted. Find ways to drag out fights to minimize the rounds/level. Use mechanics like water or flight, swarms, or even a ton of mooks (even with hosted full attacks, it'd probably be better to fireball in some cases) to mitigate haste.
My group isn't using Haste but Blessing of Fervor which is similar (you don't get all the buffs of Haste each round but only some).
It hasn't really broken encounters yet. If something has been annoying, it's the Oracle casting Holy Smite. G$&~!*n, last time he caught all but one enemy in the AOE and all but 1 failed their save and got blinded. Then the slaughter really began...
But well that's something you have to live with as a GM. Nerfing is a two-edged sword, because it's quite easy to go overboard. And if the players think each time they've found something that works you take it away, it doesn't really help the fun.
I think it's worth noting that something is always going the be the " best option" for a given level. That doesn't inherently make it over powered. Beyond that nerfing that thing just makes the next thing take its spot. Haste may be the best spell of its level, but I think the fact that it helps the whole party shine rather than hog glory is a notch in its favor for keeping it intact. Especially in light of the fact the next spell on the list may not be so party friendly.
I think it's worth noting that something is always going the be the " best option" for a given level.
That's not true.
There might well be a "best option" for a certain build, or a certain party combination, or a certain situation.But if one spell is a "best option" almost regardless of all circumstances, with maybe the exception of a few (Haste isn't so great in an all-caster party for example) then it might be too strong.
I'm not sure I'd call Haste the best spell. It certainly is for some groups, but I also don't think it's really overpowered.
I could understand moving it up one level though without destroying it.
Haste has already been nerfed. Doing any more makes it worthless, in my opinion. Or at least nerfing it more makes it a 2nd level spell. To see the original version, see 3rd ed (not 3.5).
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Haste has already been nerfed. Doing any more makes it worthless, in my opinion. Or at least nerfing it more makes it a 2nd level spell. To see the original version, see 3rd ed (not 3.5).
The 3.0 version was BROKEN. No really. And extra standard action for one target? Yeah I'd take that over 3.5/PF version any given day...and twice on sunday. Extra standard action = extra spell you can cast.
Haste is a good spell, but Slow is even more powerful (anyone hit by it can either move OR attack unless they have room for a half charge, and that's only part of the penalty)
Like any debuff spell, Slow has a saving throw which can be a problem with spell resistance. It also won't affect opponents out of range, Haste will affect everyone. Finally, buffing your allies (if they are made well) is almost always more effective than nerfing your opponents.
If all of these things weren't true, I'd see spellcasters preparing Slow a lot more, but instead they always prepare Haste.
As the game is mostly a resource management game I try to hold of on just casting it willy nilly. When a fight looks like its gonna give us extra trouble, its time to whip out this big gun.
It doesn't even work with the magus spell combat or monk flurry of blows.
it works with flurry
I saw an FAQ that specifically stated that flurry was its own full round action and not a full attack and thus didn't get the benefit of the extra attack. give me a bit to look it upit works with flurry
It doesn't even work with the magus spell combat or monk flurry of blows.
" Monk: Does the extra attack from spending ki as part of a flurry of blows stack with the extra attack from haste?
Yes. The extra attack described in the ki pool ability doesn't say it works like haste, nor does it say that it doesn't stack with haste, so the monk would get two additional attacks (one from spending a ki point as part of a flurry, one from haste)."
FAQ.
For once I am happy to be wrong on this :)
took a bit of searching but I found it and am quite happy with this revelation. Never hurts to give the monk some love.
My statement stands though. It gives no extra actions, and while powerful does not approach OP status.
Agreed.
Count me in with the "haste is not overpowered, but it is powerful" crowd.
And there are numerous ways to counteract its effectiveness. Probably the best is BBEG plus mooks. A BBEG encounter should be either APL+2 or APL+3. A 5th level party is looking at taking on a single 9th level NPC. But that's poor encounter design. Better would be a 8th level NPC and 4 4th level ones. The big bad is still a challenge in his own right (being APL+1), and the mooks are good for getting in the way. Even better is an 8th level BBEG, his 6th level sorcerer ally, and 3 3rd level mooks. With haste and slow (probably from a scroll) from the sorcerer.
It's not gamebreaking. But it's one of the few spelksthat cannot be replicated at same level by words of power. So it seems to be slightly above the baseline
My players in my last campaign were Haste junkies, but honestly, they were like a circus act trying to get everyone into 30 ft. By higher levels, they had mostly given up and were using rods of quicken metamagic to cast it again on round two to catch those who missed it the first go. Definitely not the best spell at 3rd level... but one of the best.
Haste is a powerful spell, but I dont think its overpowered. If I were to 'nerf' it I might reduce the amount of targets to 1 per 2 caster levels or something similar, but otherwise i'd leave it alone. Its one of those spells that represents teamwork more then anything else, and for me that is a good thing. Its one of those buffs that casters area almost always willing to go for instead of doing their usual take over the encounter dance they get to do as they hit mid levels. To me thats a positive thing. So if I need to add a few more monsters, or stretch out encounters other ways (remember its rounds per level in duration), I'm willing to manage that.
Whatever. It's more fumble-farting around.
Seriously? What is bless, heroism, barkskin, mage armor, shield, shield of faith, true strike, etc, etc, etc, etc?
I see no problem w/ the current version of Haste. If the GM decides not to move enemies around and the party gets an extra attack, then the GM needs to make mobile monsters. Not that big a deal.
Now, if we were talking about 3.0 Haste, I'd understand the argument as it basically gave you Pounce.
But Pathfinder Haste? It's a good spell but in no way game breaking.
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Without more information on what exactly is going on from the OP I don't feel like I can really help out all that much on this topic. It should probably be in the advice forum however not the general discussion.
Haste is a spell I did enjoy a lot with my sorcerer back in ages past but there usually is a focus by people who "need" it to find their own access (Boots of Speed for example) so limiting your targeting restriction isn't really doing anything mechanically in the average party.
If your party consists of 3 ranger archers and a wizard...okay then. >.>
Given it's under General Discussion I don't think he was looking for advice. It's just a rant on the spell.