Instead I'm bringing up the problems with all this locking, where it is wrong and unnecessary, and that they have denied there are problems and tried to lock all threads discussing them.
You really go to bat for them here, insisting they can only define what is right, but I'm contesting that. And what do you know, turns out what is acceptable, right and warranted can be argued. Now what you are doing is technically an appeal to authority. It is common, easy to do, don't worry about that for now. The flaw is that by saying the rule makers are right, you are side-stepping whether what they are doing is right ethically and where they have broken their own rules, or enforced their rules without real reason. As in, locking an off topic thread when it is already back on topic, locking a thread for hate-filled posts when the hate-filled posts have already been deleted, and the discussion has continued on with merit.
It's not an appeal to authority (although that's not always an unacceptable argument anyhow - if you hear that Sean and I are disagreeing about a rule, you dont need to hear me out to side with him).*
There is no ethical dimension to whether or not Paizo are allowed to impose conditions on people using their site. You are sidestepping that, as if there is some right to unfettered expression. This website is their property. You are here under whatever conditions they require. You can't make a sensible point until you accept that - as I said, you just keep looking stubborn and silly.
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i'm also a problem due to my Akward character design
but i advocate for allowing and improving things more than trying to hinder things.
a lot of people say "i don't want to run a Zoo." i tell them "a zoo isn't too bad" and i suggest a list of races that can pass off as human enough with the right conditions for description.
and a lot of people pick on me for "my awkward character concepts" and my "awkward gaming stories" from 5 "awkward groups."
but i post a lot of ideas and memes of player encouragement.
you could say i am a player support advocate.
Breaking their own rules, is indeed unethical. Abusing their power to make attempted last word posts and then closing a thread, is also unethical, it shows a lack of respect, and no commitment to the major rule of non-jerk behaviour.
Let's keep it on topic Geddes.
i'm also a problem due to my Akward character design
but i advocate for allowing and improving things more than trying to hinder things.
a lot of people say "i don't want to run a Zoo." i tell them "a zoo isn't too bad" and i suggest a list of races that can pass off as human enough with the right conditions for description.
and a lot of people pick on me for "my awkward character concepts" and my "awkward gaming stories" from 5 "awkward groups."
but i post a lot of ideas and memes of player encouragement.
you could say i am a player support advocate.
That is a very good thing. We can only try, and awkwardness always threatens to overwhelm and interfere.
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Breaking their own rules, is indeed unethical.
Nonsense. Different rules can apply to different people.
It's their property. You're here on condition (of following their rules).
as my mother once said, and my grandmother once said before her
"your words are like arrows, once you fire them, you cannot take them back."
it means, a multitude of things
the simplest is
the damage inflicted by the arrow is already done, you cannot undo the damage, and the damage can be quite severe
and another
by comparing words to the deadliest medieval weapon, it is saying that words can deal a great deal of damage.
yet another
just as it takes a long time to recover from an arrow wound, it also takes a long time to recover from the trauma of a truly dire insult.
Let's keep it on topic Geddes.
Unfortunately for you, if I think that rule is unnecessary I shouldnt comply with it.
I am sure we will get back on topic, without a thread lock being actually necessary.
Steve, could I ask you which thread did you want to post in recently, but then found it was locked?
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I cant remember that ever happening, except for some of the 4E threads (in which I was glad they had been closed).
If I want to say something and a thread has been closed I'll quote the post I wanted to reply to and start a new thread.
It's really no big deal.
But they locked it! Aren't you disrespecting the mods actions and power by continuing the thread anew?
To revive a thread can certainly be in your interest, and something you actually do, regardless of why the previous thread was locked. Now if it wasn't locked, you could have just kept posting without that interference. Do you get my stance? We are not so dissimilar.
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But he didn't go and make 4 separate threads just to be a pain. Nor did he feel that the mods locked the thread out of some sort of weird amusement.
It is not just to be a pain. Check the last one, kmal and I went and found proof for what we were talking about.
Then it got locked. Jeez, talk about trying hard to kill discussion.
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But they locked it! Aren't you disrespecting the mods actions and power by continuing the thread anew?
They dont seem to mind, so no.
If they told me not to do it? Yeah, I'd stop (obviously) it would be jerkish to keep doing something the owners of the site told me not too.
To revive a thread can certainly be in your interest, and something you actually do, regardless of why the previous thread was locked. Now if it wasn't locked, you could have just kept posting without that interference. Do you get my stance? We are not so dissimilar.
Sure. Your stance isnt very arcane - I'm not misunderstanding with you, I'm disagreeing with you. Functionally, you and I would operate very similar forums, I suspect but that isnt relevant to whether or not you're breaking the rules that Paizo have set out. I've disagreed with Paizo as to what the rules should be before - my wording is "Would you please...." rather than "You should...." that's our difference.
My fundamental point is that there is no objective standard as to what rules a forum "should" have. You are conveniently forgetting that posting here is a privilege granted to you under certain conditions and paizo can impose whatever rules they want (whether you find them inconsistent, unreasonable or anything else doesnt make them wrong). If they say you're only allowed to post on their forums wearing red underpants on your head then you're wrong to do otherwise.
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Check the last one, kmal and I went and found proof for what we were talking about.
No. You found proof that threads had been locked.
You can't prove they were locked unreasonably without setting out the standard of what consitutes 'reasonable locking'. You are suggesting that your opinion should be the standard when, in fact, the owner's of the site should very clearly have the right to choose their own standard.
I don't share that view. You have a simple view of wrongness here, but this thread is on the wrongness of the locking, so I can get why you are here.
It is a chaotic evil view on wrongness actually: those with the power make the rules, their breaking of the rules doesn't matter because they have the power, and you are wrong to defy or even protest.
Do you really want to argue like a chaotic evil? I think this site can be better than that.
Might, and mod powers, does not make right. So thanks for bringing it up.
To Toz, regardless of their conduct, the guy backed the powerful. It ventures a bit into lawful evil, but he is mainly about their power and position being right, not the actual rules (which have been broken by mods). So I went with CE.
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I don't share that view. You have a simple view of wrongness here, but this thread is on the wrongness of the locking, so I can get why you are here.
It is a chaotic evil view on wrongness actually: those with the power make the rules, their breaking of the rules doesn't matter because they have the power, and you are wrong to defy or even protest.
Do you really want to argue like a chaotic evil? I think this site can be better than that.
1. Alignment doesnt exist.
2. If it did, it would not be chaotic evil to affirm property rights.3. I am not saying you are wrong to protest (I have consistently told you that you should explain to Paizo how you'd like things to change).
4. I have quite a complicated view of wrongness (I am a moral objectivist, but not an absolutist). "Should a thread be locked?" is not a moral question.
...he is mainly about their power and position being right...
Nope. I said they are the one's to determine what is reasonable, not right.
The ethical dimension is should Paizo have the right to determine how their property is utilised or should you?
How would I like things to change? I have already covered that. I think this thread is doing some good too. You know, get it all out in the open.
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How would I like things to change? I have already covered that.
I'm talking phrasing.
"I dont like it" vs "This is stupid".
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I get that, but posts are not punches. I hope Vic can see that I am not the next big threat, and he can move away from such labeling.
Posts are words, and words start wars, inflict injustice, and cause people to commit suicide all the time. Words are a medium through which violence can be committed against another.
Now before you get all excited, I am not suggesting your words did anything like that. Nevertheless, you're implying that words have no consequences.
I assure you that they do. If you post with the intent to anger, humiliate, and annoy, then you're committing violence to other members of the community. Now let me be real—we all have done it, one time or another. I'm not some paragon standing in holy judgment, and I have been a sarcastic SOB on occasion. But what I'm reading from Vic's post is that this is an everyday thing with you and kmal2t. This is not a rare lapse in judgment or an oversight. This is the standard of behavior which you would like to see become the new normal.
Well, I'm not down with that.
I've read your appeal to Vic, and to me it sounds like you're saying, "Can't you overlook when we trash talk like gamers? Because if you don't, then you risk something interesting and insightful we might have to say. We have good ideas sometimes! Think of all the good discussions you could potentially lose by not putting up with us! You care about gaming don't you?"
(Just my interpretation, not a quote)
You're leveraging your potential good contributions versus your guaranteed disrespect and hostility. I'm not an accountant or statistician, but I think anybody could tell you that is a sucky deal. It is possible we could lose out on your good contributions, but like the Architect once said, "There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept."
(Now, just cause I quoted a villain doesn't make you the hero! The points stands.)
And before you throw this at me, I am absolutely 100% on the moderator's side. Unashamedly. But even if I wasn't, it wouldn't change anything. You want the community to adapt to your standard of behavior, and the community wants you to adapt to its standard of behavior. If the moderators stand firm (as I think they should), you will lose—in time.
Mr. Wertz is giving you the best deal I think you're going to get.
All you have to do is stop being a jerk. You don't have to apologize or explain yourself, or even post a response to this thread. Just whenever you disagree with someone, you explain why you disagree without also trying to piss them off or make them feel stupid. Its not hard.
Well.. my break is over. Good luck. I won't post in this thread again.
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When two sides are disagreeing so fundamentally on an issue, there are a few ways it can work out:
1) One side will sway the other by repeating themselves (this literally never happens)
2) Each side will hold firm to their opinions and get in an escalating fight (this happens a lot)
3) One side will realize that there is a major issue, and will try to calmly work it out, the other side will hold fast to their position and see any concession as a sign of weakness and proof that they have been right all along. (Happens a lot, especially in online fora where there is no real interaction between parties).
4) Both sides will realize that there is a major issue getting in the way, and they will both calmly try to work it out. (Does not happen nearly as often as it should).
The trick to getting from Fantasy option number 1 to ideal option number 4 is simply believing that the person you are talking to is telling the truth. When the moderators say "there were good reasons for it", and you say "these threads are being locked out of spite" the interpretation on each side to achieve result 4 should be "They think there are good reasons to lock these" and "he thinks we are doing it out of spite". If both sides have this realization, you can suggest "maybe I would feel less strongly if there were more consistent warnings, and the termination happened right when the [second/third] warning was ignored". The reply you get might still be "we try very hard to give appropriate warnings, but sometimes we make mistakes". Again, the trick is to believe them. When you see a locked thread you have an issue with, think "maybe there is a reason I do not know, or maybe it was a simple mistake". Either way, you can restart a thread, with an appropriate topic, and if the people posting stay civil and on topic, and the topic is not an invitation to fight (e.g. "Why only losers think playing monk is viable" or "100 ways that playing 4.0 is worse than cleaning up after a sick dog"), the there should be no problem.
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You do not get to decide the rules for Paizo's message boards. You are a visitor on these boards. If you do not like the moderation policy, there are many other RPG message boards you can go to.
Continuing to create threads about this topic when the staff (including one of the company owners) has told you not to do so is rude and inconsiderate.
We're really busy getting ready for PaizoCon and would really like to enjoy our Independence Day holiday (which many of us are spending making more preparations for PaizoCon). Are you going to continue to push this topic when you know the staff is going to be distracted by other things?
The trick to getting from Fantasy option number 1 to ideal option number 4 is simply believing that the person you are talking to is telling the truth. When the moderators say "there were good reasons for it", and you say "these threads are being locked out of spite" the interpretation on each side to achieve result 4 should be "They think there are good reasons to lock these" and "he thinks we are doing it out of spite". If both sides have this realization, you can suggest "maybe I would feel less strongly if there were more consistent warnings, and the termination happened right when the [second/third] warning was ignored". The reply you get might still be "we try very hard to give appropriate warnings, but sometimes we make mistakes". Again, the trick is to believe them. When you see a locked thread you have an issue with, think "maybe there is a reason I do not know, or maybe it was a simple mistake". Either way, you can restart a thread, with an appropriate topic, and if the people posting stay civil and on topic, and the topic is not an invitation to fight (e.g. "Why only losers think playing monk is viable" or "100 ways that playing 4.0 is worse than cleaning up after a sick dog"), the there should be no problem.
The community is not homogenous. That is a false claim. I am not the only one who is angry about the thread locks. I am not just talking about kmal here either.
It is not about making the community obedient to me either, like I am some samurai overlord. That is a misunderstanding.
Writing about this is not jerk behaviour, but I am glad to get some experience with people that see a bit of criticism as jerk behaviour worth banning. It helps me to understand people and fellow posters further.
So I will say this, with less thread locks, no one is going to die or explode from word violence. There are already plenty of threads that continue with negative, angry posts, the mods don't pick up on it, and the thread keeps on going without the moderator's touch.
You do not get to decide the rules for Paizo's message boards. You are a visitor on these boards. If you do not like the moderation policy, there are many other RPG message boards you can go to.
Continuing to create threads about this topic when the staff (including one of the company owners) has told you not to do so is rude and inconsiderate.
We're really busy getting ready for PaizoCon and would really like to enjoy our Independence Day holiday (which many of us are spending making more preparations for PaizoCon). Are you going to continue to push this topic when you know the staff is going to be distracted by other things?
It can be rude and inconsiderate to shut down posts and threads too. Think of the customers rather than the mod's right to do what they want.
If you are an American, consider freedom.
Regardless of what I can and cannot supposedly do, I can argue. I've made my points. How long it continues? Who knows? Other people are posting here too.
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Let's try this again:
The staff is really busy getting ready for PaizoCon. We'd really like to enjoy our Independence Day holiday (which many of us are spending making more preparations for PaizoCon).
Are you going to continue to push this topic when you know the staff is going to be distracted by other things?
Regardless of what I can and cannot supposedly do, I can argue. I've made my points. How long it continues? Who knows? Other people are posting here too.
Hmmmm.
Okay, I'll stop.
Oh I am not stopping holidays or what people do. Go on man. Have fun.
Why discriminate against Australia? Did a kangaroo steal your wife?I think it's funny how you saw a problem with discriminating against Australia, but not Finland or Texas ;)
(I'm Australian; I like Finland and Texas).
inside joke.
Icey is from Finnland and Gorby (who is a "BalticSeaNeighbour" of him, from Poland) knows that
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as much as i would love to discuss MMOs and their effect on modern tabletop gaming,
i think in such a thread, we should not try to bring up the edition wars,
the 3.5 Vs. PF Vs 4e 3 way war grows strong in many of us,
but i would prefer a healthy and civil discussion and how MMOs affect tabletop gaming, pros and cons, and ideas that can be borrowed from both,
instead of a bashing of 4e.
is 4e really that MMOish?
not to me, it is more like Disgaea Lite on the tabletop. and Disgaea, was a pretty good franchise once you got past the whiny characters and whomever the party ditz was for that game.
the good side of disgaea, is it encourages different stat priorities and strategies based on class and equipment, and whether you use humans or demons.
the bad side of disgaea, is it can be repetitive as you have to grind the same map for 35 more hours for every hour of storyline you complete.
in fact, the same stuff being said about 4e, can be said about any edition.
Archer? click foe, click attack button several times
Sorcerer? click spell hotkey, click square, activate spell
Oracle/Inquisitor? just let me buff up here, i will be ready to fight in 18 seconds, i promise.
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On a related note...I have been on forums with very light to almost nonexistent moderation. Over time those forums ended up being dominated by a few rude/manipulative/overly outspoken people, to the point where discussion were impossible, because anyone with a dissenting opinion/viewpoint on an issue was shut down and effectively driven out. or needled continously/baited until they lashed out and violated what few rules existed, resulting in their ban
So I am more than happy with the moderation on this board.
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Think of the customers rather than the mod's right to do what they want.
I believe that it is in fact exactly what they're doing. One of the main purposes for having a company forum is to create a welcoming community for that company's customers. Moderators are a big part of that, as they provide a level of assurance that the forum will, in fact, continue to be a welcoming place for both new and old customers.
The moderators on this forum are considerably less heavy-handed than on some forums I've seen. In one such forum, pretty much any criticism against the forum's policies were met by an instant banhammer, regardless of how warranted or well-written that criticism was.
While there are also forums without moderators, or with particularly light-to-the-touch moderators, such forums have frequently (in my experience) tended to produce communities that have caused me to turn away quickly, never to return. I would much rather have a level of moderation such as Paizo employs, than for the community to devolve in the manner of those other forums.
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OK, show of hands who else other than 3.5 and Kmal2t is enraged by the locked threads....its OK I'll wait.
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OK, show of hands who else other than 3.5 and Kmal2t is enraged by the locked threads....its OK I'll wait.
I continue to be annoyed by the moderators prevalence to delete posts but let the post which started the flaming remain. Which happened often enough so that I think I can call it a trend. Also, moving certain kinds of threads to forums which I think are not the right place also is annoying.
But generally the moderators are doing a great job, as are the Paizo staff members who choose to engage us crabby gamers on such a personal level. So it all evens out in the end.
OK, show of hands who else other than 3.5 and Kmal2t is enraged by the locked threads....its OK I'll wait.Great, "show of hands", they always do that to me.
Show of teeth?
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OK, show of hands who else other than 3.5 and Kmal2t is enraged by the locked threads....its OK I'll wait.Great, "show of hands", they always do that to me.
Come on - you've got *loads* of hands in that bag.
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Here's the thing:
This is the .. 5th? 6th? 7th? More? .. thread about locked threads. The mods and other posters have gotten the point that there are a small but vocal group that don't like threads to be locked because they believe the conversation is still valid. They got that point after the first post.
Continuing to beat the point into the ground doesn't promote any sense of good will or conversation. It reinforces the perception that the people doing it are stirring the pot for their own benefit. Whether you believe this or not (and this is important), the perception is there.
You've made your point, you've said what you needed to say. The mods/owners have drawn the line on where they stand. More posts and threads on the same topic aren't necessary and weaken whatever you are trying to accomplish.
Let it go.
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I'll be honest, I don't use the boards here much any more because of all the hostility and general bad behavior; it has created an environment where for sure 1 out of 3 threads is going to have the same warring, threadjacking suspects turn up in it. I don't understand why Paizo doesn't enforce the "don't be a jerk" rule more on *posters*.
Locking a thread punishes everyone in the thread. In Full Metal Jacket that works great because everyone can torture the guilty parties at night. But on the forums, IMO we need a lot more suspensions/bans on the actual people creating the actual hostility.
How about after every third justified flagged post - three days off as a suspension. That'll let threads then proceed without the agitators and will hopefully teach the agitators that correct behavior affects them, and isn't just a tactic to derail other peoples' conversation.
I don't think Paizo needs people's money enough to let them be jerks to hundreds of other people that are equally willing to pay them money.
(I'm not so much interested in "don't lock the threads" as in "let's fix the root cause here.")
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Like I always say, I wish Paizo moderation was more hardcore. Even if that means more of my posts getting deleted.
However, Ernest, one of the true constants of the Internet is that even if you peramban some offender, a new one appears. For example, we always seem to have at least one "X is bullcrap hurr durr I'll hang around here just so I can remind everone of that" person for any given X (Pathfinder, Golarion, 3.5, 4E, WotC, Paizo, American Prude Fascists*, LGBT, Republicans, Democrats, etc.).
Whenever one "SKR STOLE MY WIFE" guy gets banned (no, seriously, there was once a person that claimed that SKR nerfs Monks because a monk ran off with his wife. Srsly.) another one appears. So it's kind of a fool's errand if you think you can excise the Internet of badnasty people. All you can do is try to contain it.
*yeah I know, it's a bit me.
Good points Ernest. What about some sort of block posts from this poster feature?
People see a problem and a trend, people delete it from their very eyes (and all posts from said agitators) and carry on. FB allows this.
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Good points Ernest. What about some sort of block posts from this poster feature?
People see a problem and a trend, people delete it from their very eyes (and all posts from said agitators) and carry on. FB allows this.
Facebook has a somewhat larger budget, and to be honest, Paizo shouldn't need to employ that kind of feature because of a vocal minority.