185 pages?
Does that include maps and NPC character sheets?
My initial reaction is "man, I hope your players stay on track that long."
Posting your E-mail adress on an openly accesible forum like this one does not seem like a good idea mate.
Why don't you upload it on Google Docs or some other filesharing service?That way everyone who is interested can check and give you feedback.
You can restrict access with google docs and it's better than giving your email.
That said, it sounds like you've tried to write an AP. Which can work fine as long as the players are on-board with a more on-rails concept from the beginning and agree to proceed with the goal of completing the adventure. This means that you have to give guidance as to what kind of characters are feasible so you don't have roleplay-focused characters frustrated as they have to ignore their characterization in order to progress.
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My advice here, strongly, is to run a AP for a few months then go back and see what your campaign looks like to you.
AP= Pathfinder Adventure Path. Rise of the Runelords, e.g.
I agree with the above post...running a published AP could help you critique yours
IF you do wind up posting it online or whatever I would interested in reading it. I'm all for people writing and coming up with great stories...one of the guys that I will be running Ptolus with soon wrote some backstory for his character(one page as of right now) and after I read what he had so far I was actually sad that there was t more lol
Nope. We can't look at unsolicited submissions.
I've not read your campaign. However from the initial synopsis, I thought "that sounds like it goes Level 1 - Level 6; fun!" then I got further down in your post and you're saying you want 4 locales/2 dungeons to go 1 - epic...my heart bleeds for you sir.
I've tried this, a few times. Every time the players lose interest and wander off. Since you've given them nothing/nowhere to wander off to, I'm guessing my players in this scenario would become first bored, then angry.
My advice would be think about it from your players' perspecives. Not your perspective from when you were a player...there's a difference. Will your players like the limited scope and neverending dungeon hacking? If so; win. If not; fail. It's that simple.
Also I'd say - post a bit more detail if you don't want to use google docs. Personal emails become...dangerous if misused. But if you throw out some specifics (town stat blocks, synopsis of plot, maybe a link to a pic of one of the maps) you'd elicit more specific feedback.
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JPacacha, just fair warning that I am one of the forum regulars who has a reputation for being somewhat opinionated and willing to say unpopular things. I am also the sort of person who doesn't walk into every situation with the assumption that it is somehow my responsibility to make sure that other people are not offended.
You asked for feedback and criticism. So here it comes.
As a player I spend a lot of time on every character, especially including backstory, motivations, personality etc. When you say "All of the characters wake up in open graves" what exactly does that mean? What prior history do the characters have? What memories? Were they born and grew up in this town? Or did they just wake up there? Did they even come from the turtle-back world, or is the turtle-back world some pocket universe that they never heard of before "waking up."
You mention little "side jobs" including "kill the rats in the basement" for the Inn owner. Frankly I can't think of a single character I have created in the past decade who would have any interest whatsoever in rat-killing in the basement of the Inn. A large fraction of my characters would be offended by such a request. Let's say I'm playing a wizard, I've mastered the arcane energies of the universe through years of study, dedication, and no doubt, expense. Now I'm out on my own and my first job is to kill rats in a basement? No thanks.
Backing up a bit and looking at the metagame aspect of this, as a player I find most of what you are describing to be designed almost entirely to make my character follow a certain path and perform certain actions. Actions my characters may not be at all interested in performing. How are you going to motivate them? Is it going to be a "if you don't kill the rats, the plot won't progress?" Because if so, I'm probably going to wish you luck with your game and go find a game where my character's choices have actual meaning.
I don't even really want to dig into the whole cosmology aspect of your campaign. It sounds rather Terry Pratchetty to me, frankly. But much, much reduced in scope. Is there only one village on the back of this turtle? Is there an entire world? If there is only one village, how can there be any sort of economy? Where do the metals come from that the blacksmith works with? If there is an entire world, why would my characters want to stay in this tiny little village to retrieve the local harlot's necklace?
I don't mean to be harsh, but your description thus far is not making me feel like this is a game I would want to play.
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OP, take a look at my profile. Now, altho I like the cut of your jib, your hard work and your creative imagination, if a guy with my experience sez “Run a AP first, then try doing your own campaign” maybe you need to rethink it. AD also gives some solid advice, listen to him.
Quite honestly, the second thing I would do (as a player) is start trying to find my way off the island. Because that's what players do.
The first thing? Climb out of the grave.
The idea of starting the campaign on an island is fine, but players are going to want to move on quickly. Small islands are boring adventure locations. If you don't have a means for them to leave the island, they are going to think "railroad" and treat it as such. Which means they are going to try to derail the game.
I know the whole amnesiac hero finding his/her destiny seems like an attractive trope, but it's not.
The turtle provids everything the inhabitants need . . . then why adventure? When the PCs go to town, they're gonna ask 'where are we' . . . and what's the answer? On the back of a giant turtle. Any player who's read Prachett is going to start making comments, because geek culture means they are more familiar with Prachett than Hindu mythology. Doesn't matter what your intention was, players are immediately going to say "I don't buy Dibbler's wares."
Are the villagers going to say "what do you mean?" or "I don't know"? Then your players are going to treat your villagers with contempt. Because who doesn't know the name of the island they live on?
Alternatively - "You are here because you were lost at sea" Okay, fine, I get a boat and start sailing. "But you don't know how to sail!" Since I'm sticken with amnesia, I guess I can't do anything.
Don't go down this road.
LOL, pretty much the reaction I expected.
JPacacha, if you think that was me being "as harsh as possible...."
Bwahahahaaahaaa!!!!
Believe me dude, I went really, really easy on you.
Good luck with your endeavor. I politely and respectfully submit that I would not like to play in your campaign.
One more thing JPacacha, I really respect that you took the time and effort to document all this. I appreciate all the hard work and dedication it took. As a world builder myself with notebooks full of content for my own world, I know how hard it is.
If you actually do want any criticism or advice, here it is:
Work more for the benefit of your audience and less for your own.
Ahh, the forums.....what a lovely place.
First of all I don't see the railroad plot here.Many AP's have a confined environment (Serpents Skull for example),and whats with the notion that Characters not going to explore the Island to see whats going on there. They are adventurers right?
@Adamantine Dragon
A first level Wizard hasn't "mastered the arcane energies of the universe", thats not even close.A first level Fighter might be the local thoughguy but he's not a general he's not warhero and he's not an arena champion.
No matter how many pages your backstory has, a first level character can't act like he has conquered the world twice already because if he would have done anything spectacular he wouldn't be first level anymore.
@Back on topic
A campaign has a storyline, the characters follow that storyline and build up on it.Not every campaign is sandboxy ,"just do your thing style".
Most of the criticism here seems illinformed and entirely unfounded.But then again its the forums amirite?:)
You cannot build a ship and leave. I would think that's because of predators. The turtle is probably seeking them out to eat. You have waters full of smaller predators eating the leftovers. Sharks and squids are good eating. You have a sort of economy where the fishermen trade with the craftsmen. What they cannot eat and cannot craft with, they use as fertilizer.
If it's the god of all turtles, it may eat because it enjoys eating.
Ahh, the forums.....what a lovely place.
First of all I don't see the railroad plot here.Many AP's have a confined environment (Serpents Skull for example),and whats with the notion that Characters not going to explore the Island to see whats going on there. They are adventurers right?
@Adamantine Dragon
A first level Wizard hasn't "mastered the arcane energies of the universe", thats not even close.A first level Fighter might be the local thoughguy but he's not a general he's not warhero and he's not an arena champion.
No matter how many pages your backstory has, a first level character can't act like he has conquered the world twice already because if he would have done anything spectacular he wouldn't be first level anymore.@Back on topic
A campaign has a storyline, the characters follow that storyline and build up on it.Not every campaign is sandboxy ,"just do your thing style".
Most of the criticism here seems illinformed and entirely unfounded.But then again its the forums amirite?:)
Sleet storm, you can define things how you like. If I'm a wizard graduating from wizard school and embarking on my wizard career, I'm going to consider myself as mastering the arcane energies of the universe. Probably with the certificate to prove it. Sure, I want to get more power and learn more, but the universe already bends to my will at my command.
And I don't use that awesome power to kill rats for an Inn keeper.
Play your characters how you like. I'll do the same.
See, and thats the crux of the matter at hand.
I don't play my characters however I like, I play them in a way that makes sense for the game I'm in.If you don't want to do that then thats not a shortcoming of the campaign, thats just you being difficult.
The party has just woken up in open graves, they don't know where the hell they are and they probably don't have any money.They need contacts, they need money ,they need infos.If killing rats in a basement is an option so what, sounds like easy money and if you can make friends with the guy who runs the towns inn, all the better.
If I was a party member of yours and your 1st lvl Master of the Universe would act like that, I would take him aside and tell him to stop acting like a f&@%ing diva.
See, and thats the crux of the matter at hand.
I don't play my characters however I like, I play them in a way that makes sense for the game I'm in.If you don't want to do that then thats not a shortcoming of the campaign, thats just you being difficult.
The party has just woken up in open graves, they don't know where the hell they are and they probably don't have any money.They need contacts, they need money ,they need infos.If killing rats in a basement is an option so what, sounds like easy money and if you can make friends with the guy who runs the towns inn, all the better.
If I was a party member of yours and your 1st lvl Master of the Universe would act like that, I would take him aside and tell him to stop acting like a f$%#ing diva.
And so here we have the classic "Pathfinder, you're doing it wrong" argument.
Knock yourself out Sleet Storm. I suspect we would not play well together.
@JPacaha: I have to say I find your proposed campaign to be lazy, unimaginative and railroady. True I have not read the the whole 185 page 'outline' and it could be just my style of gaming. But from what I have read here this would make a bunch better computer game than a Role-Playing game as it seems you have stolen alot of those tropes. There is really in my opinion just too few Role-Playing situration...and actualy WHO the PCs are is unimportant to be a table top RPG.
I as a player would politly leave the game after a few sessions.
Hopefuly though you do know your players and they would enjoy this kinda of adventure...if so more power to you. I however if I was going to run such a adventure would get my players character's background and work it into the adventure before writting 185 pages.
Anyway good luck.
I believe that I was misunderstood. All of the characters wake up in open graves. With a ring on their finger that bears the symbol of the town that they are in...
I like your idea. I've tried similar things. I remember the time I wrote a cool one-off, meant as no more than maybe two sessions, where the PCs woke up with no memory on a beach after a shipwreck. The point of the whole thing was to uncover their missing memories.
Lasted about five minutes before the complaints came in. Took about an hour before the asshats I was playing with decided to stop taking it seriously. Lasted a session and a half, and then I quit because I couldn't take the chaos anymore.
I appreciate your efforts, but right off the bat it sounds like a mystery that asks the players to take on something of the personality or backstory you want to foist on them. My 32 years of experience tells me that rarely flies.
Keep in mind Rule #1 of Player Parties:
Wing it.
Couldn't agree more. I just started a campaign with some old friends and we're having a blast.
The campaign is set in historical 1867 Bisbee, AZ and draws elements from H.P. Lovecraft and Secret History (e.g., the black plague in 14th century Europe was spread by Leukodaemons, the Catholic Church battled them to submission but certain elements within the Church allied with the Daemons to facilitate the conquering of the New World in the 15th and 16th centuries). I went in with a few pages of material, namely who the important actors were, stats for a couple different types of zombies, and some home-brewed ideas on a dueling system/7 card stud poker with PF skill checks, and then set the players loose on the world. While I know exactly which groups are in play and how they will react to the PCs actions I have no idea what the world will look like in two sessions. Could be post-apocalyptic plague-ridden wasteland or historical-seeming Bisbee depending on what the players do. Frankly, I don't care much which way it goes and a part of me hopes that the players swing it in some other direction I never thought of.
Also, I've done some rewrites of NPCs based on the PCs interactions with them in the first session and added a subplot of plague cultists to cover up for a small GM mistake (the outbuildings of the mine had been abandoned but none of the aboveground workers made it into town. Without the players knowing I've rewritten the mine foreman as a cult leader who filled the ranks of the aboveground workers with fellow cultists who rounded up the remaining miners and forced them into the mine when the zombie plague broke out).
I agree with some others here. I would try running at least a module or some other short adventure first as practice, to see how your interactions with the players will go. The rough outline of your plot doesn't sound horrible, but I can definitely see certain players not enjoying themselves, and certain GMs having trouble pulling this off.
Also...if you oversketch the plotline out...you run the real possibility or writing yourself into a corner if your PCs do something that you don't expect. WHICH THEY WILL. I GM with a good group of players that I get along with and have known for years, and they still manage to surprise me by taking paths I didn't expect, annihilating bosses that were suppose to be difficult, and getting completely murdered in encounters that should have been easy. Just something to keep in mind.
P.S. I was exactly in your shoes last fall. Gming for the first time without playing in multiple years. I ran the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary edition, and it's been a great AP for a first time GM to run.
There is a show on now called Under the Dome. A town is trapped under a force field and they have to try to survive. No meds, no more bullets, and no cell service. It's by Steven King, so watch it for a good scare. Makes having the run of a huge turtle island seem like a piece of cake. :)
Ok, so, @ the OP: first off, thanks for your explanations and synopsis. It's very obvious you have a clear vision of what you want and expect out of this game as well as a lot of drive and motivation to see it through. This is admirable and should be commended.
The plot as I understand it has the following layers: on the surface you have knights awakening in graves, finding a town, and coping w/the fact that they just sort of appeared there. They then go about doing the things adventurers do: asking questions, fighting monsters, getting treasure.
The secondary layers are that they are not of this place. They will discover this fact in the course of their initial adventures and they will presumably be motivated to discover the true nature of where they are, why, and how to leave this place.
My questions as a GM would be: what motivations do they have to leave and who are the townsfolk?
When I read your synopsis I didn't think of Pratchett or Hindu religion. I thought of the TV shows Lost and The Prisoner. Both shows had flashes of former lives alongside the current predicament of the characters.
Is the plot railroady? Of course it is. This is a given based on 2 things: limited environment and the assumption that the PCs will, upon discovering portions of the truth, be motivated to leave. Now, is railroady inherrently bad? Not if you have the right players.
That's really my only fear: the players. Have you considered your audience? I've done the amnesiac thing and had it done to me. It sort of takes the wind out of the sails of the player. One minute they're envisioning how their backstory puts them on a trajectory for all kinds of unique scenes and achievements, the next minute you're a blank slate in a hole.
Also what happens when the players get the wrong ideas, make bad choices or decide "this is boring; I build a portal to another realm?" You see there's always one in my opinion. One guy at the table that, no matter HOW well you sold your vision of the game a few sessions in this person figures it's just not his thing that night and tries to go off book.
This is VERY often a problem for young GM's, especially when they've got a specific vision and environment with which to work. I'm not saying your game is doomed to fail; rather I'm suggesting you have contingencies planned.
For example: character death. Its one thing if all the PCs are striving against evil, one guy doesn't make it and in the course of the adventure the guy dies. The rest of the party scoops up his body, takes it to the graveyard and the town priest brings him back; case closed. What if however one guy just decides he wants to try out a witch instead of a rogue, so he pulls a Groundhog Day and suicides himself, throwing his character out the window of the tree's 6th story? There's no body to recover nor does the guy WANT to be saved. Does the turtle LET him leave?
You probably have answers to these kinds of questions (185 pages of them) but I just want to make sure you've considered them carefully. Consider your audience. Consider the fact that no matter HOW detailed you laid it out one or maybe even ALL of your players just simply won't understand your vision. Also understand that the very nature of the system you're playing and the nature of players themselves is that your vision won't STAY yours for very long; the players will want to have some impact on it otherwise they're just listening to a story.
Mechanically I don't have anything to really comment on. If you're using PF my advice is understand the RAW on the NPCs you've created. Look for gray areas in your game, such as overland travel or exploration, and have some solid rules in place to govern these things.
Despite this being a railroad campaign, don't fear random encounters or events. Look around these forums; there's plenty of advice for such things. These will help break up the dogged pursuit of "the truth" that the PCs will be on.
AD has a point on one thing: the side quests should have a point for the characters. Now, I'm not talking about just material rewards or even info. Killing the rats in the basement for money or knowledge of a secret door to a treasure room on level 1 really holds no impact for most players. However, if you have a character whose prime motivation during their lives was to save their little sister, perhaps the rats in the basement have a little girl trapped. The PCs take the job and when they find Newt in the basement, she's a SPITTING image of the one PC's kid sis. Now, as the campaign progresses, the little girl maintains an identity in this world but does things, like writing w/her left hand ("My sister was a lefty") or always wearing a red ribbon, or having a speech pattern or whatever that's EXACTLY the same as the PC's sister. That is an interesting if maddening subtext to keep the player in your vision.
So to sum up, I guess my advice would be know your audience, prep some contingencies for when the train goes of the rails, and motivate the players with things other than gold or info. Make this world THEIR world as much as it is your own.
It's not a bad game and you shouldn't feel anyone's putting you down or telling you you're doing it wrong. It just seems in the synopsis you've given that it's very much YOUR game. I hate to admit it, but that's the thing that kills most campaigns: ownership. It's not your game, nor is it any one player's. Its EVERYONES game when you get to the table. As long as you keep that in mind everything should run fine.
Have fun with it. It doesn't have to be rigid and bulletpointed, following from page 10 to page 11 in your plotbook. Just let the characters immerse into the setting and let the players play. And if you need more feedback or want to post a few sessions just to show off your work, throw it out there.
Honestly without seeing the material I am limited in what advice I can give. I dont think all adventures need to be wide open in scope. A limited area such as an Island can be fine if written well. Awaking in a Grave with no memory might be ok. Again I would have to read it.
I second the Google Docs Idea. You can limit the viewers. You can get comments in Google on specific things. I can tag a line of text with a comment. "You should change X text to say Y... it will be more descriptive... ". It can be updated and exported in PDF form. Its a great tool. Think about it.
I read and reread your posts. The adventurers don't have full amnesia. Many of the islanders, if not all, were lost at sea. It might be possible for replacement characters to wake up in the graves. Some of the townspeople might be trying to escape the island. With the limited resources, an open ocean worthy ship or a hot air balloon will be hard to build.
JPacacha: "Hey guys, here's an idea I have and want some feedback and criticism"
Adamantine Dragon: "Hmm.... here's some stuff I find less than satisfactory."
JPacacha: "You're a jerk!"
LOL. This is classic.
Abu, thanks for the armchair psychoanalysis.
I find the best thing you can do is to drag it back on to topic.
A player who plays their character like they already know everything isn't that bad. It's a roleplaying angle. It can move the story along. If they insist on searching every square inch of everything looking for a portal off the island, they can find that secret room you mentioned.
Ok...
First I am not part of any support group fo AD. I might agree with him here....and at others times I have disagree with him.(I think I have at least).
Second I gave my personal take on what you have given. We come from very different styles of gaming.
Third I have found in life sometimes you really have to be blunt. Also in this case I found it neccessary. New GMs have really such fragile egos as you have proven. Well as a GM for a very long time I will tell you this get used to critism....sometimes it is even harsh critism...but you can use that critism to grow even the most bluntest critism you recieved from players.
Also...I kinda highly doubt your psychologist told you to create a world that you would feel better in than post it on the internet...if he/she did you should seek a new psychologist. If you did not want honest critism don't post it on the internet. You should probably just have titled this thread...'Hey guys give me false praise and small tweaks to my campaign' instead.
Umm...thank you?
Seriously though, one quick note about the other posters, especially the Dragon of Mutant Metal: I'd hazard to guess they've ALL written something they were passionate about, only to have it get dissected, edited, critiqued or otherwise red-marked by others. The sign of a good writer is that they get a lot of this kind of feedback. The sign of a GREAT writer is that they hear the feedback, no matter what it's perceived tone, with a neutral and understanding ear.
I don't think anyone was trying to tell you you were doing it wrong J-walker. I could be wrong though. Whatever; I've used AD's wisdom a few times and I've disagreed w/him as well. Bottom line - take whatever feedback you can get and pour the passion and inspiration into your writing.
I also understand that part too: the writing. I too have given birth to many such a Magnum Opus; campaign docs, short stories, poems and such. I thought they were the bees' knees. Then my audience got a hold of them...and my work was shredded into a million beautiful pieces. Why couldn't they see what was in my brain?
Anyway Jpeg, my point is: no one here is out to get you. We understand you and just want to help, as per your request.
And to the rest of us: he's a new author/GM, out on his own, throwing his ideas to the wolves and hoping for the best. Now I'm not saying we sugar coat it, but remember back to the FIRST time you ever managed the courage to do this. How would YOU have wanted your critics to sound?
So...back on topic.
It sounds like you've got a firm grip on how your game is going to flow as well as contingencies for divergence. Are you using Slow, Medium or Fast leveling, or even using the Experience charts at all? If I plan out campaigns, I try to use the Medium XP table and set myself a guideline: roughly about 15 - 20 encounters = 1 level.
Those encounters need to be APL or thereabouts (within 1 level). Thus to go from Level 1 to Level 2 I plan on throwing out roughly 10 APL 1 encounters, 5 APL 2 or 3 and 5 APL 1/2 to 1/3.
This helps me with pacing. I'm not saying you have to do it this way, but it's what I do. Knowing this, plus the proclivity of my players to make it through about 6 encounters in a session, helps me then add into my outline where I can afford to throw out plot hooks.
For example: I have a campaign right now that is in planning. The opening of it is a monster attack in the market. From there the PCs meet some NPCs which will influence the lower levels of the game. These NPCs in turn have several non-time-sensitive side quests for the PCs.
They also get the attention of a major, campaign-spanning NPC who has a formal mission for the party. The mission is a module (Master of the Fallen Fortress) adapted for my homebrew. Using my experience guideline, each of the side quests then is good for about 5 encounters while the main quest can be finished in 6 but I've planned 12 just in case.
I'm sure you've already got all this handled, but I know pacing is a major concern of mine. Of course, as I'm writing this I'm realizing that my current campaign's pacing has been derailed several times by player kookiness, so perhaps I'm not the best advisor. Still, I shoot for consistent pacing when I can!
Finally are there any class restrictions or other character concerns based on the uniqueness of your setting? For example in their former lives could one of the PCs been a cavalier that was shanghaied onto a boat and then died there? Or do they have to have all been some kind of sea-farer. Making sea-faring PCs and then not being able to sail anywhere might become taxing for some players.
In the Prisoner, there was Rover. In Harry Potter, there were the Dementors. I suggested aquatic predators. It's the nature of the game that monsters meant to keep the characters on track can also provide XPs and plot hooks.
If the characters do get that hot air balloon airborne, they may find another turtle. Maybe they will see a lost ship emerging out of the mists. Maybe they will find an island only to realize it's the highest mountain peak they know of. It depends on what kind of campaign you are running.