RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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You have a choice: select Gorum as your deity for cleric purposes, or change gods and lose the ability to use Spiked Destroyer. (If I were the table GM handling this, I would require an atonement as well.) Of course, fighters get to retrain and swap out feats, so it would be smart to swap out the useless Spiked Destroyer when you get a chance.)
Your character doesn't get to worship Gorum "as a fighter" and then, say, Hanspur "as a cleric".
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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PFS is set in Golarion, the home campaign of the Adventure paths. It's a campaign rule. A cleric worships "a god". Is your character a cleric? Then he worships "a god". Singular.
There were a couple of hints here and there of edge cases: for example, the Order of the God-claw is a Hellknight order that was originally stated to worship a group of five gods. That got ret-conned, though. Every cleric in the Order of the God-claw worships one of those five deities: Asmodeus, Torag, Iomedae, Irori, and Abadar.
The concept of a character starting off as a fighter worshipping Gorum and then having an eye-opening experience and converting to another faith is a great one, though. I encourage you to play that storyline out.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Not by reading of the Guide to Organized Play, version 4.2, page 10.
Religion: Characters can elect to worship any deity listed in a table of gods in the Core Rulebook, The Inner
Sea World Guide, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Gods and Magic, or any other source listed as an official Additional Resource. Characters may elect to worship an evil god, but must always be within one alignment step of their chosen deity. For clerics, this is an especially important choice, since the deity’s alignment determines whether the cleric channels positive or negative energy, a decision with significant tactical implications for the cleric and her allies. Characters who do not receive powers from a divine source may choose to be atheists or to have no deity at all.(Italics mine.)
It says that a cleric has to choose "a deity" as the source for their cleric powers. It does not say that after that cleric chooses a deity as a source of their Cleric powers that they can not then choose to worship another deity.
First, this is the third thread on the same topic you've started today. As a friendly FYI, they really do frown on multiple postings on the same subject cross forums.
You've received the same answer in each thread, but don't want to believe it. I don't know why, but that's not really my concern.
In regards to this bit quoted above though, let me point you to the cleric class itself.
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by her god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. She cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until she atones for her deeds (see the atonement spell description).
One blatant way to grossly violate the code of conduct of a religion is to throw it away and choose another religion to follow. Once that happens, you would lose all of you clerical powers and abilities.
Good luck with your concept.
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As Chris posted above, the Guide to Organized Play clearly states that a character who receives power from a deity may only "worship" one. Characters who don't receive mechanical benefits can "worship" as many as they like.
I have a Tengu who carries a holy symbol for about 8 different gods, and pulls them out in situations when they'd be the most appropriate ones to pray to.
I also have a Paladin of Ragathiel whose parents were priests of Aroden - she worships Ragathiel, but "honors" Iomedae and Milani as Aroden's legacy, and the memory of Aroden himself.
For mechanics purposes, you can only "worship" one deity, as the Guide clearly states. For role-play purposes? Create a story you want to play, just so long as you don't "cross the streams."
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I have a Tengu who carries a holy symbol for about 8 different gods, and pulls them out in situations when they'd be the most appropriate ones to pray to.
:)
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The faction symbols don't matter, the stars do. A little.
But anyway, yeah. If you are deriving a benefit from a god, you have to worship them. The exceptions to this are Paladins, Druids, and Oracles, whose divine powers come from other sources. They would still have to worship a god they are deriving a trait or feat from, however.
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Okay, I still don't know where this clear language is and it would have been great if someone would have simply quoted the clear language.
With that said, I see the symbols next to your names so I will accept your answer as gospel even without a citation.
Religion: Characters can elect to worship any deity
listed in a table of gods in the Core Rulebook, The Inner SeaWorld Guide, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Gods and Magic, or
any other source listed as an official Additional Resource.
Characters may elect to worship an evil god, but must
always be within one alignment step of their chosen deity.
For clerics, this is an especially important choice, since the
deity’s alignment determines whether the cleric channels positive or negative energy, a decision with significant
tactical implications for the cleric and her allies. Clerics,
inquisitors, paladins, cavaliers of the order of the star,
and samurai of the order of the star must choose a deity
as all classes in Golarion that receive spells and abilities
from a specific divine source receive their powers from a
deity. Druids, oracles, and rangers are the exception to this
rule. The list is not exhaustive, and divine spellcasters of
any future classes whose sources are added as additional
resources to the Pathfinder Society Organized Play
campaign will be required to choose a deity unless
otherwise specified. Otherwise, characters who do not
receive powers from a divine source may choose to be
atheists or to have no deity at all.
Otherwise, characters who do not receive powers from a divine source may choose to be atheists or to have no deity at all.
You know, I never noticed this before, but isn't that redundant?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Kind of, sort of. Athests believe that the gods are not worthy of worship. Cayden Cailean is powerful, with epic levels and maybe divine levels or something. But big and powerful doesn't make him a god. Nobody worshipped him before he took his drunken tour of the Starstone Cathedral, and nobody ought to be worshipping him now.
Desna is a very very old, very very powerful alien who is masquerading as a pretty butterfly lady. That's not something a free-willed man ought to worship, either.
Athieists have no relationship with any of the gods themselves, but don't believe that it's wrong to worship them.
Okay, I still don't know where this clear language is and it would have been great if someone would have simply quoted the clear language.
It's in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play. In the current version of the Guide (v4.3), it's on page 10, under "Step 11: Finishing Touches". Amanda Holdridge provided the quote itself.
The exceptions to this are Paladins, Druids, and Oracles
Just for clarity: it's rangers, druids, and oracles who don't need to select a deity, despite being "divine" spellcasters.
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Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.
Keep in mind that as Pathfinders the interaction with Clerics who can manifest powers from a Deity (or even servants of that deity) would preclude that form of Atheism generally.
Even Rahadoum recognised the existence of Deities. It tolerated the religions before that start of some nasty religious wars until certain people decided enough was enough and created the Laws of Man. Whilst we do not know exactly what the laws say, you cannot discount the existence of Gods. Their laws simply opposed the idea of anyone worshiping the Gods in general in the country. So not really Atheism there, just a state pogrom against Religion.
If a Character chooses not to worship a God or be religous, this does not neccesarily mean that he rejects the belief of existence of deities. It is simply that he/she chooses to live without the need to have faith in a higher power.
Otherwise, characters who do not receive powers from a divine source may choose to be atheists or to have no deity at all.You know, I never noticed this before, but isn't that redundant?
No. One sleeps in on Sunday, one gets up early to rail against the unfairness of the capricious gods.
Is this another thread about the same thing because the answer in the first thread didn't produce the desired result?
It appears so.
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Yes. There was another thread because the answer in the first thread didn't produce the desired result. I maintain that the OP is trying to skirt around the rules simply to get what he wants. He's even been presented with viable options to get it legally. But it appears he doesn't (or refuses to) understand.
No matter how many times you slice it, here is the RAW from PRD. The rule is listed in the Cleric section, under the flavor text, and in the mechanical game rules under ROLE:
As their powers are influenced by their faith, all clerics must focus their worship upon a divine source. While the vast majority of clerics revere a specific deity, a small number dedicate themselves to a divine concept worthy of devotion—such as battle, death, justice, or knowledge—free of a deific abstraction. (Work with your GM if you prefer this path to selecting a specific deity.)
The simple answer to the OP's thread (both threads) is still NO. Even if you try arguing that the text doesn't specifically say you cannot worship two gods, it does say that a cleric MUST worship a deity or a concept. Singular grammar is used, therefore it the deity or concept is singular in nature. There is no question, no leeway for interpretation a different way, etc..., there is only the RAW (which my personal opinion says that RAI also supports, considering the above posted paragraph on Ex-Clerics).
This has all been pointed out to him, he's been shown several direct RAW references for normal play AND PFS play that restrict him from worshiping multiple Gods, but he won't leave it alone.
You can argue this from any angle you wish. PFS uses standard Pathfinder rules plus some extra ones. Every single one of those rules indicates via RAW that Clerics are limited to the worship of one deity or concept.
Singular grammar means singular worship. This is supported in every single rulebook you attempt to research.
You are trying to do something outside the bounds of the rules. As stated in the other thread, you have two viable, legal options to get what you want.
1. Worship Gorum and plead to the DM to approve your chosen domains.
2. Become a Separatist Cleric of Gorum and take one of his domains and one other of your choosing.
Either way, you would be a Cleric who worships Gorum. There's no getting around that to qualify for the feat you wish to take.
You can't see or fathom the "jump in logic" because it doesn't need to be jumped. I've provided the proof right out of the Core Rulebook. As we told you clearly in the other thread, you are making things more complicated because you disagree with the response.
I recommend taking one of the two legal paths to get what you want, or dropping the issue. At this point it's a very dead horse. Just because you disagree with the rules doesn't mean you can argue them or twist their meaning to your stance. Especially not in PFS play. Those rulesets are even more strict, and for good reason.
There probably is no RAW on the subject. Not everything needs to be written out, nor should it.
Look, yes I disagree with you as to the standard pathfinder rules.
PFS uses what you quoted as "Standard Pathfinder Rules" and adds in some of their own. I don't expect that you will get any different answer than anyone is trying to tell you.
What I really don't understand is how you cannot believe that the RAW supports my statement when I directly quoted it to you, and it's researchable for your own eyes. Others have done the same, provided direct RAW quotes for your appraisal.
The issue here is that you don't wish to believe what we've put forth for you because you disagree with what's written on paper in the rulebooks, both Core Rulebook and the PFS Guide.
That's something I can't change. I've provided my opinion, I've provided proof. That's all I can do to help you. I'm done arguing it.
There probably is no RAW on the subject. Not everything needs to be written out, nor should it.
There is RAW on the subject. Look up my responses for the Core Rulebook direct quote. Others have provided the direct quote from PFS.
This all stems from the OP, on his third attempt at arguing a thread, and he maintains that he doesn't agree with the RAW or RAI that we've provided him. That's all well and good, but it's still RAW.
RAW have been wrong before, they are wrong here, and no doubt they will be found wrong at some point in the future on some other topic. However, for the purpose of game mechanics and simplisity of play, a cleric should hae one Deity that they focus on as the Divine source for their powers. A cleric of Thor would use his hammer on anyone who claimed that he would not also worship Odin or Heimdal when appropriate.
Of course, a cleric would not actively worship two Gods that were in opposition to each other, Ahriman and Ahora Mazda, for example.
The only time that a cleric would be restricted to worshiping one and only one God would be in a monotheistic or henotheistic religion.
Unless you're doing some organized play thing in stores or conventions or something, then such things work however you and your GM and the rest of your table decide it does, no matter what the campaign setting or adventure path says.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Unless you're doing some organized play thing in stores or conventions or something,
Absolutely. However, he wants to play a character with one god "when he's being a cleric" and another god "when he's being a fighter", in Pathfinder Society.
We have cited the PFS Guide saying "no". All characters in PFS, not just clerics, get to worship either 1 god of 0 gods. (Page 10, as referenced above) Golarion's world rules let non-clerics worship more than 1 god, PFS does not.
In fact, I have generally found that the people who answer on these threads are conservative GMs who seek to say no to anything they can possibly say no to.
Baloney. What you've found is that people don't read the text the same way you want it to read.
There are a lot of gray areas in PFS rules. (Take a look at the stealth / perception debates, or the darkness, continual light debates, or the how tightly we track encumbrance, or audit Chronicles, or a host of other issues. The GMs for the campaign -- Mike Brock, Mark Moreland, and Jon Compton -- are silent on many of those issues, letting us run our tables as we see fit. Number of gods worshipped is not one of those open areas.