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Consistency. If you are going to be a damage dealer, deal damage, don't spend half your feats on tank abilities and half on weapons. If you are going to tank, tank, don't get crazy with damage feats. If you are going to be a healer, heal, don't think you're a wizard.
What I don't like from people is a PFS version of bipolar players. You know, the healer, who thinks he's going to be a fighter. The wizard, who can't make up his mind and takes levels in cleric or oracle.
Unless you know what you are building from lvl. 1 and it includes multi-classes for a specific reason, focus on ONE and only ONE class.
And don't sign up for a party saying you are a cleric, if you are not a healer. That means other clerics won't sign up because they'll assume your group is set for healing. Just write down fighter, that way no one is expecting to be healed by you.
If you can not confuse people with weirdness, like playing a damage dealing cleric, who doesn't heal his party, you'll do great.
If you play a wizard, who doesn't try to take levels in fighter, you'll be fine.
If you play a rogue, without trying to take levels in oracle, people will appreciate it.
Race doesn't matter, class doesn't matter, FOCUS matters.
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Play what you want to play. It's supposed to be your happy fun time and not a job. Have a decent AC, a fair amount of hitpoints, and try to be good at what the character focuses on. It's pretty difficult at a convention to magically find the "perfect party build" unless you bring a whole group from home.
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FanaticRat, just remember that the messageboard is only a VERY SMALL minority of the most vocal gamers. In the vast majority of games, players have fun and soo many of the complaints you see here never occur. Don't stress about party mix, etc. Just don't be a selfish jerk or misrepresent your character and you'll be fine.
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If you do play a healing cleric "Selective Channeling" will always be awesome. (advice)
If you play a lvl. 7 character, in a single class you'll do great.
A lvl. 7 wizard or a lvl. 7 cleric or a lvl. 7 figher or a lvl. 7 rogue, always great.
A lvl. 4 figher with 3 levels in cleric, is still only a lvl. 6 fighter at best, and not a very good one if his feats are split between the classes.
Multi-classing for the sake of multi-classing is pointless and it weakens your PC and thus your party.
If you play a lvl. 7 character, in a single class you'll do great.
To be fair, all of your examples of single classes involve full casters, who you almost never ever want to multi class with. Fighters don't scale much and have full BAB, so they aren't too awful to dip around from, but a full caster is someone you play to do casting and is dependent on your caster level and spells known/per day. Pathfinder though does reward you staying in a single class more often than not, but there are exceptions.
Your not likely to find the perfect class to fit every situation, thought casters sometime feel like they do. Just remember to stay viable, and you'll likely be okay. Oh, and play nice and cooperate, table manners are always important in life.
I do realize that it's only a game and I'm there to have fun, but being useless or knowing that my fellow players are annoyed with me for what I'm playing isn't fun. I'd rather play something I'd rather not than endure passive aggression.
That being said, I only ask because I've never been able to play a game at a con but have seen a lot of complaints on gaming sites and very little good things.
Its the nature of PUGs. A bunch of random people who don't know each other and little pre-coordination come together. I have plenty of horror stories and good stories about gaming, so its definitely not all bad or absolutely risky.
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You are welcome at my tables if you are a fun player.
I don't care if your PC is super powerful or mediocre or blah.
This has been stated elsewhere on these boards, but a good rule of thumb is that your character should bring four things to the table:
1. Something you can do well in combat;
2. Something you can do okay in combat, as a backup;
3. Something you can do well outside combat;
4. Something you can do okay outside combat, as a backup.
These "somethings" in combat might include:
a. striking with a melee weapon,
b. striking with a ranged weapon,
c. tanking,
d. skirmishing (flanking, aiding, etc.),
e. casting offensive spells,
f. casting battlefield control spells,
g. casting buff spells,
h. healing,
i. knowledge checks,
j. dealing with undead (turn/control/destroy),
k. grappling/tripping/etc.
These "somethings" outside of combat might include:
a. diplomacy,
b. knowledge,
c. scouting,
d. trapfinding/disabling,
e. utility spells,
f. appraising,
g. healing,
As an example, my paladin/gunslinger is good in combat at ranged damage; she is okay in combat at tanking, aiding, and a little healing; she is good outside combat at diplomacy; and she is okay outside combat at healing.
My fighter/wizard is good in combat at buffing/debuffing and knowledge; he is okay in combat at melee damage; he is good outside combat at knowledge; and he is okay outside combat at scouting.
(I don't subscribe to the philosophy that you shouldn't multiclass. Every single character of mine has at least two classes.)
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I do realize that it's only a game and I'm there to have fun, but being useless or knowing that my fellow players are annoyed with me for what I'm playing isn't fun. I'd rather play something I'd rather not than endure passive aggression.
That being said, I only ask because I've never been able to play a game at a con but have seen a lot of complaints on gaming sites and very little good things.
Here are a list of my characters:
I have a deaf gnome oracle of lore 10/mysterious stranger gunslinger 1.
She spams Blessing of Fervor to help her allies, casts a quickened divine favor on herself, and then shoots bad guys with her holy pepperbox.
I have a half orc oracle of nature 1/sylvan sorcerer 9 that has a stegosaurus as her bounded mount and spends the majority of her time making him more dangerous.
I have a human cad figher 6/tattooed wildblooded envenomed sorcerer 1. Her bloodline makes her better at stealthing, climbing and acrobatics. She is very, very good at using a heavy crossbow. She casts gravity bow on it and then shoots as many things as she can as fast as she can.
I have a kitsune divine hunter paladin 6/mysterious stranger gunslinger 1. (Yes. I like the mysterious stranger a lot.) She smites evil guys with her gun for justice and tumbles around a lot. She also has multiple tails.
This is what I have when I come to a convention. I lay that out and if players don't like it then I move on to a different group. These are the characters I want to play. Like has been said before the nature of random groups of a con means it's highly unlikely all characters at the table are going to perfectly fit together. You don't know how bought tickets and what they want to play. Just do your best to work together well with everyone else.
I almost forgot to add to please try to have a skill or two outside of murder hoboing your way through the Inner Sea. You will be glad you did. Swim, perception, sense motive and maybe a knowledge skill or two.
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A creative person I can steal, build, and give ideas to. I love creativeness.
A person that enjoys and roleplays with the other players. This is a social game of a table full of people. Not 1 vs 1 vs 1 vs 1 vs GM. I have the most fun when I or another player piggy backs off of each other.
A team player. A player that is willing to put risk to their characters. To much risk is not a team player keep in mind. A person that can work with each player to maximize the team.
Someone that can take a joke. Things will go wrong players roleplaying with put the team in a slightly worse situation. I have done this and atleast part of the table laughed at these antics.
I do not care what class you play as long as you built a character that has SOME use. I seen a bard with tema buff performance that used expiedant retreat and feather fall. He ran from every fight.
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....Pathfinder though does reward you staying in a single class more often than not, but there are exceptions....
Truer words haven't been spoken. For most classes, you are rewarded for a SINGLE class.
The OP asked what makes a PC most welcome at a CON. I hope that he has accepted my words as the best truth I could come up with on short notice.
A SINGLE class PC. I know we want everyone at the table to be nice and have fun. But if your PC dies because the other 5 people at the table have split their levels between two different classes, your party will probably fail and wind up with a TPK. And no one will have fun and everyone is going to be pissed.
You want a fun experience and you want others to have one to, its an easy rule. Stick to a single class, unless you have a synergy class. (Rogue/Ranger are a good synergy mix, there are a few others) But for the most part, single class makes your PC welcome at EVERY table.
I can play with a group of 6 wizards or 6 clerics or 6 fighters or 6 rogues or 6 rangers or 6 of any other single class and more than likely, your PCs are all coming out of a scenario alive, with gold in their pockets.
You give me a group of 6 players with 6 PCs of lvl. 6, with split classes and you've got party death and a lot of sore folks, sore at each other, a whole lot of blame and ZERO fun.
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I find multiclass characters fun to play with.
I find single class characters fun to play with.
I play multiclass characters (sorc 10 Paladin 2 Oracle1).
I play single class characters.
All that to say, I like playing with fun players. As long as your character can do *something*, and you interact with the group, we'll have a fun night. Optimized or not, as long as you are a fun person looking to have fun with a group, then you're more than welcome at my table.
1) Be a team player
2) Have a PC that's good at something in combat
3) Have a PC that's good at something outside of combat
4) Be honest to the GM
5) Be respectful to the other players and the GM
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1) Focus fire focus fire focus fire. 2 half dead monsters still hit just as hard. 1 entirely dead monster cuts the damage in half. Unless you are tossing save or dies or you're guaranteed to kill the monster in one swing everyone please kill the same monster at the same time.
2) If you think that your class and level are too metagamey, at least let me know roughly what you do. IE, if i know I have a monk in the party rather than "a mysterious man with a foreign accent" I can memorize a greater magic fang and some extra barkskins.
What kind of accent is that?
Foreign.
*facepalm*
3) focus fire.
4) If you want to use an ability, know what it does. There's too many feats, weird abilities, and archetypes in the game now for anyone to keep track of everything.
5) focus. Fire.
6) People that know how to have fun
7) Please do something in combat, at least past level 5 or so. I realize there are some concepts that don't really work until you have 2 or three feats in the chain, but if your plan is to go from gyro to hero at level 9 as soon as a feat clicks into place, make that character the DM credit baby.
NEVER underestimate the aid another action.
Last time I saw aid another the person hit anyway. AC has diminishing returns, and sometimes its a better use of your action economy to make sure something is dead.
That said, remember to use your actions and try to always keep a backup option or two. I've played with a few people who stopped and danced midgame, and its fun for them! But my guy is being stabbed so I'd rather them at least fire a crossbow or something.
There's always something useful to be done...Well, not always; sometimes all you can do is continue to bleed.
Roll to stabilize!
Anyways, be prepared. Carry a backup weapon, maybe some scrolls, etc. Mundane items can go a long way too, but carry capacity is at thing.
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NEVER underestimate the aid another action.Last time I saw aid another the person hit anyway. AC has diminishing returns, and sometimes its a better use of your action economy to make sure something is dead.
That said, remember to use your actions and try to always keep a backup option or two. I've played with a few people who stopped and danced midgame, and its fun for them! But my guy is being stabbed so I'd rather them at least fire a crossbow or something.
There are a few encounters with some pretty high AC that even the dedicated damage dealing martials would have hitting in tier...much less if you played up. So there is a time and place for aid another. Not every time mind you...but if you need a 20 to hit and deal pretty much nil damage, giving the guy needing a 16 to hit a +2 ain't a bad trade off.
There are a few encounters with some pretty high AC that even the dedicated damage dealing martials would have hitting in tier...much less if you played up. So there is a time and place for aid another. Not every time mind you...but if you need a 20 to hit and deal pretty much nil damage, giving the guy needing a 16 to hit a +2 ain't a bad trade off.
Oh is there? I haven't seen it, but normally I play a caster in the group so I don't have to worry about high AC so much. Could I get an example of an encounter? Full BAB + dex or strength, possibly against touch with a gunslinger has usually been pretty safe in my experience.
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There are a few encounters with some pretty high AC that even the dedicated damage dealing martials would have hitting in tier...much less if you played up. So there is a time and place for aid another. Not every time mind you...but if you need a 20 to hit and deal pretty much nil damage, giving the guy needing a 16 to hit a +2 ain't a bad trade off.Oh is there? I haven't seen it, but normally I play a caster in the group so I don't have to worry about high AC so much. Could I get an example of an encounter? Full BAB + dex or strength, possibly against touch with a gunslinger has usually been pretty safe in my experience.
I have seen an AC of 29 in a 3-4 tier. Course the 6-7 tier had the same AC so I blame bad scaling for this example. But a +4 BAB +5 strength, +1 weapon, +1 weapon focus and your hitting on an 18+ (and seriously, this is 18+ on somebody who dumped pretty much everything into hitting and doing damage). A 1-2 with a 24 AC which is a 27 in the 4-5 tier is also pretty bad. And this even assumes you have somebody with a 20 strength. What happens when you have fighters with only 16 strength because they wanted more con and dex? Or are TWF?
Your second part...REALLY? So we are all gunslingers now? Okay...yeah whatever.
Your second part...REALLY? So we are all gunslingers now? Okay...yeah whatever.
I said gunslingers exist, not that we are all gunslingers. No need to take it that way.
Anyways, AC 29? I don't think I've seen that one. Sounds kinda' crazy.
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Well, against an Ac 29, you'll need to go other routes. There is always alchemist fire (you bought some of that, right)?), ray spells (acid splash, ray of frost), magic missiles, domain and specialist powers. These are all touch attacks (so the big AC would likely be quite a bit smaller).
On top of that, there is Aid Another, flanking, tripping, grappling, etc. Guidance spell, touch of good, etc., also all help.
This isn't to say that a 29 AC isn't more than a bit high, but there are ways to reduce the deficit.
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What do I want from a party? A group of people who are willing to have fun together, solve problems, and be prepared to think outside of the box.
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Well, against an Ac 29, you'll need to go other routes. There is always alchemist fire (you bought some of that, right)?), ray spells (acid splash, ray of frost), magic missiles, domain and specialist powers. These are all touch attacks (so the big AC would likely be quite a bit smaller).
On top of that, there is Aid Another, flanking, tripping, grappling, etc. Guidance spell, touch of good, etc., also all help.
This isn't to say that a 29 AC isn't more than a bit high, but there are ways to reduce the deficit.
You doing 1d3 to 1d6 damage...possibly (because their touch might not be that bad either) vs increasing the chances of doing 2d6+16. So lets assume you can touch the AC 29 guy on a 10+ (because you know, casters don't have exactly the best attack bonuses). That is doing an average of less then 1 to 2 damage on average. Increasing that 2d6+16 damage chance by 10% is 2.4 average damage per round. It makes more sense to aid in this case then to pop off piddly damage stuff. Now if you have a magic missile or better yet scorching ray or frigid touch or other higher levels spells that you can pop off...then yes you should probably do that instead. If you can trip or grapple an AC monster like this...well that is an option as well. You know what also helps you grapple and trip tho? Aid another.
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What do I want from a party? People that are cooperative, know simple tactics (focus damage!) and can handle situations that commonly occur. I'd much rather play with the well rounded player that is prepared for many situations than the min-maxed barbarian who can't handle anything that doesn't involve running up and hitting someone. Just because you're the fighter doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to handle a darkness spell (potion of darkvision), invisible creatures (powder works!), flying creatures (potion of fly or a ranged weapon), etc. But mostly I want people that remember that this is a cooperative game where we are all here to have fun, not one that you're expected to solo.
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Play what you want to play. It's supposed to be your happy fun time and not a job. Have a decent AC, a fair amount of hitpoints, and try to be good at what the character focuses on. It's pretty difficult at a convention to magically find the "perfect party build" unless you bring a whole group from home.
What Amanda said. Have fun, have a PC that can contribute in some way.
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I've been considering playing at gencon but after seeing so many threads and posts complaining about party composition--be it class or race or optimization or lack thereof or whatever--I have to wonder what people want out of random parties. Especially since all my characters are either non-core race, non-core class, or both.
I figure the best I can do is trying to make enough characters so I can have an appropriate one for each table, but it does make me wonder what people expect from their parties. Arr there thungs you guys personally like, things that are pet peeves, both from a mechanical and roleplay perspective? Keep in mind I'm referring to things that aren't inherently jerk moves.
Kattie Sommer has pretty much summed up what I want from a party when I sit down to run a table.
Now I have never been to Gen Con, or some of the other big cons like Dragon con....so I cant talk very much about what it will be like there.
I have just finished attending Con Temporal in Raleigh NC. For me this was a chance to see some good friends and to play PFS with them.
I have some 16 characters in PFS ranging in levels from 14 down to 1st level. Some are " optimized, I think, others are experiments, and with others i was just having fun.
All I can say is make a character you think you would enjoy playing.
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8) Folks responsible for their own healing.
"Fights over channel to heal me!
"I don't know if thats a good ide...
"DO IT!"
*channels negative energy, looks down at smouldering corpse* "I'm not that kinda cleric and if you'd put a rank into knowledge religion you would have known that..."
Even if you can't use a wand of CLW SOMEONE in your party can. I know its not the bright shiny new sword that you want to spend your money on, but the cleric/bard/druid/alchemist probably has something they want to spend their money on too.
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Your second part...REALLY? So we are all gunslingers now? Okay...yeah whatever.I said gunslingers exist, not that we are all gunslingers. No need to take it that way.
Anyways, AC 29? I don't think I've seen that one. Sounds kinda' crazy.
AC 29 is not problem... I've had several front liners with this or more at 3rd level.
Two were Combat Medics - so they did other things in Combat.... but they needed the AC to be there.
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Your second part...REALLY? So we are all gunslingers now? Okay...yeah whatever.I said gunslingers exist, not that we are all gunslingers. No need to take it that way.
Anyways, AC 29? I don't think I've seen that one. Sounds kinda' crazy.
AC 29 is not problem... I've had several front liners with this or more at 3rd level.
Two were Combat Medics - so they did other things in Combat.... but they needed the AC to be there.
He was talking about bad guy AC at tier 3-4, which really surprises me. I don't think I've ever seen a baddy with AC above 21 at tier 1-2 or above 24 at tier 3-4.
He was talking about bad guy AC at tier 3-4, which really surprises me. I don't think I've ever seen a baddy with AC above 21 at tier 1-2 or above 24 at tier 3-4.
If you haven't played/GMed "In Wrath's Shadow" and you want to play, do not click spoiler:
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Actually, with the introduction of the spell "Blood Money", it is entirely worth it for all casters to takes 1 level of wizard, so that they can get expensive spells for cheap, such as raise dead, simulacrum, animated dead, Restoration, whatever
To be fair, all of your examples of single classes involve full casters, who you almost never ever want to multi class with.
If you really wanted blood money as a divine caster, just be an Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle and you don't have to lose any spellcasting levels.
Yes, you have to be an elf, but I'd rather be an elf than a multiclass caster. Plus it's an awesome archetype anyway.