Recharging a staff don't make them any more powerful than replenishing an empty quiver does. Or accepting the staff, to begin with. Or a old fashioned sharpened sword, too. I'd argue than a simulacrum with a sword is more powerful than a simulacrum without a sword, so with your very very very broad definition of "grow in power", a simulcrum, who is built naked, can't even take weapons or don armor or use items.It's been ruled that simulacra cannot make magic items, as doing so is a very definite increase in their power.
There is very, very little difference between making a staff and recharging a staff. If you give a simulacrum a staff, and he recharges it, he IS suddenly more powerful then he was before, no question about it.
I would thus rule that no, simulacra, as non-living creatures who cannot grow cannot grow stronger, can't recharge a staff anymore then an intelligent magic item could.
Untrue.
The simulacarum is spending gold to regain arrows, or transforming gold into arrows via a skill check.
IN recharging, he's exerting his own magical power into something to turn that which has no power in that which has power, and it can't just spend gold to acquire that material effect.
Look at it this way: Making a wand is functionally no different then 'recharging' it with 50 charges of spell X. Recharging a staff is basically the same thing, except the container is already made.
==Aelryinth
Let's see if I understand: he can buy arrows, because it spends gold. He can't recharge a wand, or build it. But he can buy a wand, right?. I guess that means he can buy new arrows for his quiver, but he couldn't build them with Craft: Fletcher. Did that stop to make any sense to you? Because it did to me.
In case you didn't note, "transform gold into arrows via a skill check" is exactly what he is doing when he builds a wand. He spends gold, make a skill check (Spellcraft, to be precise), and construct a...
It takes a feat to make magic items. Simulacra cannot take that feat.
It takes skills to make mundane items. Simulacra can have skills.
There's a clear line of demarcation between one instance and the next.
If it took a feat to make bows and arrows, you'd have an argument. It does not.
it takes more then a feat or skills to recharge a staff...it takes actual spellcasting ability from class levels.
Therefore, I'm pretty sure a simulacrum can't recharge a staff. Hey, YMMV, and I'm not 100% sure, but it sure looks like the intent of the ruling on power gain.
==Aelryinth
Simulacrum like wish is very much a GM makes the calls spell. While I believe recharging a staff is probably within the simulacrums abilities developers have made comments saying creating spawn, and crafting magic items fall under the increasing in power rule of the spell. Since what counts as an increase of power isn't directly spelled out using magic items at all could be argued to be an increase in power.
Since Wish and the like can create permanent benefits, I'm inclined that using Wish as a spell like power is impossible for simulacra as well. I'd say they couldn't cast a Wish to make you (or themselves) stronger anymore then they could craft a +2 Str belt.
==Aelryinth
See I think the "A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities." is pretty clear.
The first sentence explains that simulacrums cannot become more then they already are, and the second sentence explains what that means in game terms. So Simulacrums by the text can do anything except gain levels or abilities. Recharging a staff is not "gaining a level or ability", nor would casting Wish (since they already had that ability), or Crafting Magic Items (again assuming they have that ability).
Casting a wish to give themselves a permanent inherent bonus is getting more powerful.
Crafting a magic item for a permanent bonus of one sort or another is getting more powerful.
Neither would be allowable. Recharging a useless stick into something carrying extra power? No different then making a new one, mechanically. You could give them the staff and they could use it, but if you think the ability to endlessly recharge something isn't a way to accumulate power, I'll note that crafting a scroll a day isn't ANY different.
==Aelryinth
When did simulacra loose feats?
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Except for a few things:
1. Recharging a stave *IS* a different mechanic then creating a new one. There's is literally different mechanics for them. So no mechanically speaking they are not the same thing, or even close to the same thing.
2. An inherent bonus is not a level or ability. The first sentence is descriptive, the second sentence clarifies the what "more powerful" means in game terms.
Do I think recharging a staff makes you more powerful? No, not in any real metric. Do I think gaining an ability score increase makes you more powerful? Of course. Do I think that gaining an increased ability score is an increased level or a new ability. No. And since Simulacrum only cares about levels and abilities, these are fine.
Edit @ Franko a: They don't, not sure what the basis for Aelryinth's argument is outside of construing "more powerful" to be literally anything and ignoring the clarifying text directly after it.
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Because then I wouldn't have to keep reposting the mirror link for new readers who skip past the arguing.
Artemis, the original link's been dead for a few months now; I mirrored it on my SkyDrive here
It's been ruled that simulacra cannot make magic items, as doing so is a very definite increase in their power.
I did a few searches on the Simulacrum spell. While there have been numerous designer posts made on the topic, I couldn't find a post, FAQ or errata that states that simulacrums can't take and/or use crafting feats anywhere - from the spell description it's clear that they do get feats after all. Do you have a reference or a source for that ruling, Aelryinth?
has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)
By the way, I'd be happy to set up a thread on the Rules Questions forum if this sidetracks the thread too badly.
Being slightly more on topic. My 9th level Boom-Gnome just two-spelled a supposedly hard encounter. The BBEG was at the top of a tower, which was filled with his minions. One Intensified, Empowered Fireball aimed at the top of the tower annihilated the tower, the minions, and took a pretty big chunk out of the big bad. The flying (and still smoking) bad guy then went invisible, which meant nothing to me as I had See Invisibility running (and always will when I make it Permanent next level!) so I flash-fried him again. According to the DM, there was nothing left but ash and some badly charred magical items.
Well, either his BBEG rolled some natural ones on his saves, or your GM is punishing you for killing the bad guy by destroying his loot.
It's been ruled that simulacra cannot make magic items, as doing so is a very definite increase in their power.I did a few searches on the Simulacrum spell. While there have been numerous designer posts made on the topic, I couldn't find a post, FAQ or errata that states that simulacrums can't take and/or use crafting feats anywhere - from the spell description it's clear that they do get feats after all. Do you have a reference or a source for that ruling, Aelryinth?
has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)By the way, I'd be happy to set up a thread on the Rules Questions forum if this sidetracks the thread too badly.
James Jacobs referenced the ruling in his thread, and it popped up somewhere else.
And giving yourself permanent spells and bonuses isn't getting more powerful, eh? I think we have different interpretations on the matter. I wouldn't let Simulacra cast the Permanency spell either, for the exact same reason.
==Aelryinth
Would you mind providing a link for either of those posts? :)
I've read all of JJ's posts containing the word "simulacrum" and I've seen no reference to such a ruling.
mmm, hmm, whose the other dev who posts a lot? One of the rules guys.
I know I read it here, because it surprised me when I saw it, but also made perfect sense.
I don't keep links to much stuff other then what I post myself, sorry.
==Aelryinth
Sean K Reynolds? Stephen Radney-McFarland? Jason Bulmahn?
I don't mean to doubt your word, but "I read it somewhere" is a bit vague and it strikes me as very odd that such a ruling is not covered in the PRD, the PFSRD, the FAQs or in any errata.
Will you people get a thread already? Back in MY day, young'uns had the decency to not do that sort of thing where everyone had to see them.
I don't think it was SKR. Might have been Buhlman, but I don't read his thread much.
==Aelryinth
Well, either his BBEG rolled some natural ones on his saves, or your GM is punishing you for killing the bad guy by destroying his loot.
The magic items were actually ok, once we'd cleaned all the bad-guy-soot off of them. As for rolling natural ones, he actually PASSED his first reflex save against my fireball!
Back on topic.
I have been thinking a lot about the Preferred Spell (Heighten Spell prerequisite) vs. Greater Spell Specialization (Spell Focus and Spell Specialization prerequisite).
While we largely agree that Heighten Spell isn't the best there are some advantages:
-After Spell Perfection one could heighten for free up to 9th level spell/save.
--Then you can add Dazing Spell (to Fireball) making it a 5th level slot. That's pretty cool. Add in Persistent to kick it all the way up to 11.
-Persistent Spell is available at level 5. versus 9.
-Persistent Spells are still only a standard action to cast. Leaving you with a move action. Tactical movement is important in combat. Stay close to the Cleric, stay close to the other PC's you are buffing. Stay close to the martial's who will keep you from getting grappled and eaten.
-Finally, Spell specialization loses a lot of its value at high level - so ultimately becomes a feat tax much like heighten.
There are 2 sides to the story and there are plenty of reasons to go with the Gr. Spell Specialization.
Happy Blasting
A full on Guide to simulacrum would be a very good thing!
Also the use of force and sonic effects in blasting needs a little attention in my humble opinion.
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A full on Guide to simulacrum would be a very good thing!
Also the use of force and sonic effects in blasting needs a little attention in my humble opinion.
IPSLORE THE RED'S FULL AND UNEXPURGATED GUIDE TO SIMULACRA:
Step 1. Ask your DM how he has it work, specifically whether he houserules a chunk of its flesh back and what effects half HD have on various SLAs.
Step 2. Regardless of the answer, only ever make copies of yourself to do mundane work for you because if you try and start making simulacra of wishgranters for infinite wishes or succubi for profane gifts and bedwarmers, your DM will be fully justified in hurting you. Especially if you tried to go into detail about how you use your succubus simulacra.
Actualy succubus simulacra are much more usefull as bodyguards, translators, spies, assassins and negotiators.
Wishes are tricky under the most ideal cercumstances, a simulacra capeable of granting wishes would be a walking nightmare for the owner.
A guide covering the iratta and common information on simulacra woud be invaluable for DM's as well as playres provideing a common baseline of expectation for both.
Succubus Simulacrum really are best for Profane Gift for 1 of your stats, but for your best one (and your most important stat) you want a Lilitu to give you +4.
Succubus Simulacrum really are best for Profane Gift for 1 of your stats, but for your best one (and your most important stat) you want a Lilitu to give you +4.
Don't you need a caster level of 34 to do that?
Is a blockbuster Arcanist (from the ACG playtest) viable? All you would need is to take the Arcanist Exploit: School Understanding - Admixture at 1st level and you're golden. You wouldn't even need to waste points from your Arcane Reservoir to boost it, as the Versatile Evocation ability isn't dependent on level.
The intense spells ability can be augmented however, and so could the Bloodline Development: Draconic (Fire) if you chose to go down that route.
In the future I'm sure we'll see plenty of builds that use the Arcanist. One could even pick up the same Bloodline that everyone tries to sell you on using your Arcanist level, and still dip a level for the cross blooded orc shenanigans.
The link seems to not be working. Can anyone repost a good link or just message me with the same please?
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brewer hasn't been on the boards for months, and his links are dead.
I mirrored it here
brewer hasn't been on the boards for months, and his links are dead.
I mirrored it here
Perfect. Thank you.
Succubus Simulacrum really are best for Profane Gift for 1 of your stats, but for your best one (and your most important stat) you want a Lilitu to give you +4.Don't you need a caster level of 34 to do that?
You are misunderstanding something. A Lilitu only has 17 HD, thus you only need a Caster Level of 9 (which you should have at this point). The twice your Caster Level is a limit, though it will rarely come up, since I haven't run across many 50+ HD things.
If you're playing PFS you replace Scribe Scroll with Spell Focus
One from class, one from specialization, one from Int bonus.
Especially if you tried to go into detail about how you use your succubus simulacra.
That depends entirely on how lonely your GM is, and your ability to write erotica.
Sadly, my GM is not lonely, so that was bonus experience I couldn't get.On topic:
May have missed it, but couldn't see much analysis on the point: How much mileage can one expect from Versatile Evocation? Should I be conservative in a crawl of a game, am I OK if every spell prepared is fireball and the place is crawling with fire immunity?
Obviously, the latter won't be true but is there and extreme, or medium? Having played few wizards, I don't know the strategic ins-and-outs.
You should have more than sufficient uses to keep you going. Outright elemental immunity is fairly rare.
Wonderful. Though, yes, it was a rare example I should probably have time to prepare around if it comes up, in retrospect.
I don't mean to seem like I'm resurrecting a dead post, but one of my player's is really interested in this build for our upcoming RotRL campaign. However, I have a couple questions(advice).
He wants to play an elf blockbuster w/ a healthy dose of Treantmonk's god wizard. He's going with Admixture; familiar is a Greensting Scorpion for the +4 initiative; relevant stats are INT 20 & DEX 16; lvl 1 spells = Identify, Burning Hands, Grease, Mage Armor, Mount, Obscuring Mist, Color Spray & Vanish.
Question 1: For his lvl 1 feat, we've narrowed him down to either Toughness, Spell Focus(Evocation) or Combat Casting. He's considering Focused Study for one of his 2 traits, so maybe Combat Casting's not as necessary.... extra HP could be helpful, especially since some of his spells have rather short range (also the thinking of why Combat Casting may be good). I was thinking Toughness lvl 1/ Spell Focus lvl 3/ & Spell Specialization @ 5th....
Question 2: As mentioned, considering Focused Mind as one of his traits. Heavily leaning towards Lore Seeker for his 2nd trait w/ Burning Hands as one of the 3 spells (will allow player to select other 2 spells affected later) - the +1 CL/+1DC to any 3 spells on his list sounds really good, along w/ +1 Know(Arcana). Is Magical Lineage really that big a deal? Am I being too short-sighted if I advise him to skip it?
Question 3: Can he take the Additional Traits feat later, or can it only be taken @ character creation? I can't seem to find anything that states traits are only done @ character creation - suppose you could say that more of your background has been revealed, which would explain taking Additional Traits.... if so, Magical Lineage could be taken later, when meta-magic would be actually be useful/relevant.
Thanks for the advice.
@strayshift,
Actually, my older son & I were discussing this last week (he's not the player, but is really knowledgeable about the game). One of my biggest concerns with the build is the idea that some of these spells will get the pc dangerously close to combat. It's one of the reasons I was asking if Combat Casting would be more important, especially at lower levels.
I wonder how it affects the build if you forego the Burning Hands spell, & just use Magic Missile/Ray of Frost for the 1st few levels, (until Fireball becomes available, at least). This way, you reduce the need for Combat Casting, as you can remain out of combat more since MM has much better range. Also, the Intense Spells ability will help at least some with the damage output for those 1st few levels, given that MM is an evocation spell. Spell Focus & Spell Specialization can wait until 3rd/5th levels, respectively then - Toughness would probably be the most likely feat choice for 1st level in that case.
Any thoughts on this idea? And any input on my earlier question regarding Magical Lineage?
Thanks
While I'm thinking of it, very few potential enemies, especially at the lower levels, will be having resistance to force attacks - further reducing the early-level importance of admixture. And just to pile on some more, MM never misses....
Hmmm.......
btw, Zenith Games has a link to the blockbuster guide in the Guide to the Guides page (I believe it's a Word doc).
I wonder how it affects the build if you forego the Burning Hands spell, & just use Magic Missile/Ray of Frost for the 1st few levels, (until Fireball becomes available, at least). This way, you reduce the need for Combat Casting, as you can remain out of combat more since MM has much better range. Also, the Intense Spells ability will help at least some with the damage output for those 1st few levels, given that MM is an evocation spell. Spell Focus & Spell Specialization can wait until 3rd/5th levels, respectively then - Toughness would probably be the most likely feat choice for 1st level in that case.
Any thoughts on this idea? And any input on my earlier question regarding Magical Lineage?
Thanks
Having Magical Lineage(or the other one that does more or less the same thing, Wayang something or other) is rather huge for a blaster. I'd definitely not skip it. That said, if he has a spare feat sometime between levels 1 and 7(to use empower in 4th level spell slots), then he won't really be using it until then anyway, so picking up Extra Traits should be fine. I'm not sure how likely he'll be to have a spare feat by then, though.
Magic Missile/Ray of Frost won't make for a very effective multi-mob slayer, but it should be alright otherwise.
Having Magical Lineage(or the other one that does more or less the same thing, Wayang something or other) is rather huge for a blaster. I'd definitely not skip it. That said, if he has a spare feat sometime between levels 1 and 7(to use empower in 4th level spell slots), then he won't really be using it until then anyway, so picking up Extra Traits should be fine. I'm not sure how likely he'll be to have a spare feat by then, though.
Magic Missile/Ray of Frost won't make for a very effective multi-mob slayer, but it should be alright otherwise.
Don't know if it helps, but here's the rest of the group: halfling bard (buffer/face), human ranger (switch-hitter build), half-elf zen archer monk & catfolk barbarian (created alt racial that subs DEX for STR to make a more 'lion' than 'housecat' based character - BSF).
I'm thinking the wizard's gonna be needed more for battlefield control anyway. Since I'm running RotRL, it doesn't look like there will be a lot of multi-mob slaying required early on. Taking Magical Lineage around 7th level (probably on Fireball, as Brewer recommended) should work out ok, I think. My biggest concern was coming on here & finding out there was some FAQ that Lineage had to be taken at 1st level or something.
Talking with the player, he's also expressed that he doesn't want to be too close to combat - so, that's another thing in favor of MM/RoF I guess.
Magical Lineage on Shocking Grasp sounds interesting. At 1st level, you can make the range close instead of touch for free - still better than the 15' of Burning Hands, plus you're doing a d6 instead of a d4 damage. The drawbacks I saw was 1) you're still only affecting a single creature (but with more damage); 2) close range is still close enough to end up in combat. It won't be until 3rd level that you can go to medium range and 3) now you can't put Lineage on Fireball.
One other thing I'm confused about is damage caps. RAW, most of these spells have damage caps (5d6 for Shocking Grasp, for example) - yet, I see in the various guides people talking about damage levels well above the cap. Obviously, I'm missing a rule here that allows damage above the cap. Does it relate to bonuses to caster level or is it from metamagic (or both)?
Thanks again.
Magical Lineage on Shocking Grasp sounds interesting. At 1st level, you can make the range close instead of touch for free - still better than the 15' of Burning Hands, plus you're doing a d6 instead of a d4 damage. The drawbacks I saw was 1) you're still only affecting a single creature (but with more damage); 2) close range is still close enough to end up in combat. It won't be until 3rd level that you can go to medium range and 3) now you can't put Lineage on Fireball.
One other thing I'm confused about is damage caps. RAW, most of these spells have damage caps (5d6 for Shocking Grasp, for example) - yet, I see in the various guides people talking about damage levels well above the cap. Obviously, I'm missing a rule here that allows damage above the cap. Does it relate to bonuses to caster level or is it from metamagic (or both)?
Thanks again.
Intensify Spell metamagic gives you an extra five levels above the cap that your caster levels can increase the bonuses. When you also consider that people will often add in empower dice when talking about spell damages on the forums, it can make the number of dice look huge.
Also, I had another thought. Assuming I'm understanding correctly and you're GMing: If you're allowing retraining, you might consider allowing him to take something like Combat Casting at level 1 and retrain it at level 7 or so. Traits aren't technically allowed in the retraining rules, but as long as it isn't PFS, I don't see any real reason to disallow it as long as you let everyone else know that it's an option.