Still, there is a reason that organized play does it the way they do; it keeps people all on the same playing field. Deities are a way to do this. In your home games, you don't need to follow this same ruling.
Same playing field? I don't get what you mean.
Anyways, I already rule otherwise at home. Just curious how the rules work sometimes, in particular about inquisitors and how they are apparently of the idea or deity(but apparently organization so whatever that means?), oracles are unrelated but cursed, and clerics are always deity. If I understand all that correctly anyways.
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As the question says. Basically want to know if it's even possible for the Cleric class to function without worshipping a deity for a character concept I'd like to bring to life.
Quoting a response I gave almost a year ago here:
Clerics (along with inquisitors), to me, are the only truly offensive aspect of the game. I don't mind religions in games--the associated drama can be fantastic--but when a game attaches mechanics to an "existing" deity it becomes a different issue. And it's not just the patron requirement: deities in most settings are untouchable by even the highest HD mortal around. "Faith" is not magical and I'm sick of seeing mundanes drawing power from it.
I don't see "divine" magic (mostly defensive & utility spells cast through armor) as originating from deities, but rather from the cosmos. Could be a natural resource floating through galaxies or some weird Lovecraftian connection--either way the caster receives their spells through meditation as this unusual energy is drawn in.
[...]I have a problem with any class pulling their power from an entity that can cut them off; nothing is appealing about a class like that. I've had to rework the logic behind summoners and witches to sort out such problems as well. For many, fantasy gaming is empowerment and nothing detracts from that like becoming a servant of something just to cast spells.
That's my stance; my solution is to treat the character with levels in cleric as a kind of space mage...but without the usual scifi accoutrements. The character might not even be aware of space as we understand it, but accepts that there is a source of power beyond.
Still, there is a reason that organized play does it the way they do; it keeps people all on the same playing field. Deities are a way to do this. In your home games, you don't need to follow this same ruling.Same playing field? I don't get what you mean.
Anyways, I already rule otherwise at home. Just curious how the rules work sometimes, in particular about inquisitors and how they are apparently of the idea or deity(but apparently organization so whatever that means?), oracles are unrelated but cursed, and clerics are always deity. If I understand all that correctly anyways.
Basically, there are going to be domain combinations that are more powerful than others; by making everything based on domains, you limit the impact of power-gaming, since both power gamers and non power gamers are selecting from a more limited list.
Basically, there are going to be domain combinations that are more powerful than others; by making everything based on domains, you limit the impact of power-gaming, since both power gamers and non power gamers are selecting from a more limited list.
Oh! I see now. Well, ideally you could pick any deity, and that defaults any sourcebooks with new deities to power creep, and lessens their value as flavor and makes them the munchkin police. I don't think the game is built like that, but I could be wrong. Usually I prefer to put people's fun and choices > Munchkin policing, or at least in this situation.
Within Golarion officially, the rules-as-written say that your cleric (or inquisitor) must be affiliated with a deity. That said, there are many different ways for the deity/clergy relationship to work. Not all are "fanatical worship." Here are three alternate, non-fanatic ideas that might liven up your next cleric's personality:
Employer/Employee: Your cleric regards the church as his/her foremost loyalty and the deity as more of a CEO; the being who makes the big-picture decisions and presents a public face for the church. Interaction with the Chief is rare, because if you and the church are both doing the job right there's no need for the Chief to intervene in crises.
Wearer/Garment: The cleric is a vodoun-style channeler. He/she prefers to use mundane means, 'donning' the god's power only when there's vital need. Your cleric believes mortals can too easily misuse or become addicted to the power otherwise. Interaction with the god directly is rare, because even a 'benevolent' deity is a non-human supernatural force of great age and power: a little mistrust is not uncalled for.
Private Eye/Client: The cleric was an adherent of his/her alignment long before seeking divine power from the deity. He/she may even stand outside the church structure entirely. From the cleric's point of view, the deity assigns the 'jobs', provides information as necessary, and pays with magical power rather than gold. Prayer to the Client is pretty common, but since this is a briefing of the Client on your activities since your last update, there's not a lot of simpering or kneeling. (And no, your holy vestments don't have to include a trenchcoat and a half-smoked cigarette.)
Great ideas.
The agent performed the ritual and waited. Cayden staggered through a portal and the smell of a filthy back alley of a hot southern climate filled the room. The god was simultaneously coughing up phlegm while downing an ale, it was clearly a special ability. In half coherent ramblings and off topic stories, Cayden gave the agent his next mission. There was no need for prayer and simpering, but the god insisted the agent drink with him.
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There are Domains that are better than others, but there are also Mysteries, Curses, spells, Feats, & Skills that are better than others. Im not really sure that that has anything to do with anything for the most part. Sure there are some resteictions (in PFS and home games), but many of them are not to mediate power as much as thatthe rules work a little bit differently. No crafting or item creation for example, isnt to balance power between one class or another, but instead to keep everyone around the same level in finances.
And if that where truely the concern with Domains, there could have been a better way to handle it without robbing players of a lot of creative power for their character, in the same way that a Wizards School does not mandate exactly what spells they can learn, Feats they will take, or dictate a lot of their personality and motivations. Or require that Fighters must come from this or that warrior academy, or Rogues a specific Guild should they want to focus on a certain build. They have the option, especially in setting material, but they still have the freedom to completely make up their own background from being a street urchin that trained themselves to formal schooling, to a personal mentor. Having a Patron deity removes a good deal (not all), of that, and invites DM's and others to push their own view of what the deity wants or says is ok onto the player's character in ways that no other class does, especially when those deity's tenets are vague and many people can not agree on what alignment an action ought to be even outside of that.
Cleric service an idea, was more a throwback to Old Basis D&D, i think.
When D&D red box set came out, you could play a Cleric. But no gods, or Deities were listed in the first three original box sets, of the baseline game. In Fact, the fourth box set, was based on the player advancing into becoming Immortals ( aka deities ).
If you wanted gods, you had to buy the Game setting box set: Dragonlance, Forgotten realms, Grayhawk, or Mystrea.
Even in 1st ed AD&D the first Gods Hardback book, read more like a monster manual. Were the gods could be outright fault, battled, defeated, and even killed by mortals.
......................
Another way to look at is
1) Gods all powerful = cleric get there power form the gods = If your a mortal, your noting more than a flesh-bag of mostly water, and just another ant for the gods to step on.
2) Gods are just illusions = Cleric have the power, they just do not know it = The gods are the creation of the hope/dreams/nightmares of the clerics, so in other words.... The gods get there powers from the collective energy's of the Clerics and followers. When the cleric and follower disappear, then so do the gods.
3) Gods are immortal, but not all knowing. = They are just long lived creatures/aliens/people. Clerics get there power from there faith and believes, which has nothing to do with the immortal creatures poising as gods.
4) All of the above, very from land to land, world to world, or city to city.
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I prefer a mix of 2 and 3 (mostly 2), honestly as the base assumption. I've never liked the idea that the deities are simply uber Outsiders, personally, but I can see a few philosophies that can (mostly incorrectly) view it this way.
2 allows for the potential for some great stuff, later on more likely than starting out where the players can customize their beliefs and really have some moral/religious drama and issues.
How is it a retcon? given that oracles aren't a revised version of a class but a class itself. Oracles are DRAFTED into service by the powers behind a mystery. Unlike a cleric who went to seminary or was tutored by the local priest, oracles are dragged into their supernatural roles, so Oracles of an "ideal" would make even less sense than it does for clerics.
I've never allowed the clerics of an ideal option, because I considered it merely something that was thrown into 3.0 along with the general misguided and hopeless effort to please Fundie critics of the game. If you're a Divine caster in my table, that means that a definite someone or someones is granting (or inflicting) power on you.
Its a retcon because everything before it was changed to match its existence. A creative leader of Golarion changed his mind essentially. Personally, I'm not big on lumping everyone of a class into a certain category.
Okay, so you don't like clerics of the ideal. That's fine. I allow it because I want to open a lot of creative ideas to the table, because that's what I like about the cleric of the ideal. Its also great for a setting without heavy influence from deities.
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I think they meant retcon because way back in the day, for both Pathfinder and Golarion, it was intentionally left unclear if non-deity worshipping Clerics (and Druids, Paladins, etc) existed or not. One day they declaired all Clerics needed a deity (for Golarion) and actually did change or remove a lot of setting material that dealt with either not having a deity, having more than a single one, or similar variations.
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I loved that the creator of [Eberron] came on the boards and expressly said, if you believed strongly enough in your shoe, you could become a Cleric of Your Shoe.I'm picturing the scene. It's a frigid morning. Thousands of grim iron-clad warriors hurry along the parapets, preparing themselves for the onslaught of the enemy horde. And then, from the distant enemy lines comes the dread chant that has plunged all of Eberron into a brutal and senseless holy war:
"Shoes for the Shoe God! Shoes for the Shoe God!"
Why, oh why, do I see some very odd Palestinians with English accents holding up sandals in my mind's eye?
There's an angel named Sandalphon out there somewhere...
I was thinking more like "Oh glorious Shoe, grant me your toes so that I might KICK ***!" :)
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I'm playing a Crusader Cleric of Iomedae, going for the prestige class that grants me a paladin-like oath and ethos. I've also played a Shadowcaller/cleric of Zon-Kuthon. I wouldn't call any of them a zealot. I do have a lot of fun playing on the relationship of cleric/deity, and part of my fun comes from following my character's deity's faith. If I just wanted magic-like powers without the clerical aspect, I'd play an oracle or a wizard.
First of all, worshiping a deity does not make you a fanatic, not even if you're as devout as a Cleric has to be.
Second, by the game rules, you can instead follow a philosophy or some other belief and gain power from that.
However, in Golarion (the 'official' Pathfinder world), and thus in PFS, that second bit doesn't apply, and all Clerics require a deity
So yes, by the rules, you can do what you're talking about, but in some worlds it may not be a valid option. Consult with your GM about whether it's cool in his world.
Slightly off-topic question.
Where does the "Golarion disallows deity-less Clerics" come from?
Is it in the Inner Sea World Guide (thus, whether I'm playing PFS or not, my Cleric has a deity)? In the Core Rulebook?
I don't play PFS, so I'm wondering where this notion actually stems from.
Where does the "Golarion disallows deity-less Clerics" come from?
Is it in the Inner Sea World Guide (thus, whether I'm playing PFS or not, my Cleric has a deity)? In the Core Rulebook?
I don't play PFS, so I'm wondering where this notion actually stems from.
I actually don't know where its specified. For PFS its inside of your Guide to PFS play, under religion. It states what classes have to have a deity. I'm not a big fan of it myself, but I've said that several times.
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Where does the "Golarion disallows deity-less Clerics" come from?
Is it in the Inner Sea World Guide (thus, whether I'm playing PFS or not, my Cleric has a deity)? In the Core Rulebook?
I don't play PFS, so I'm wondering where this notion actually stems from.
The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting was the go to book to find out what rules were slightly different in that setting, such as Monks and Paladins being able to multiclass in certain specific ways without 'falling,' and Paladins being able to follow the CG Sune, so it's entirely reasonable to expect this sort of ruling to appear in the Campaign Setting or World Guide.
Alternately, it's the sort of setting specific ruling that would appear in a Players Guide to Golarion, if you were cleared to know about the existence of such a tome.
Unfortunately, the published books have to say tends to contradict this, with pantheist clerics being mentioned in Sargava, Heart of the Jungle, Gods & Magic, etc. and clerics of non-gods like Walkena and the Child-Goddess showing up in places like Kaer Maga and the NPC guide as well. If you look hard enough, you can find about a dozen such instances. But, 'officially,' these printed references are all wrong. And then there's the Juju Mystery and the Paladins of Asmodeus. :)
The cool thing about a Players Guide to Golarion, if such a thing ever materializes, is that we will get to see what other class features or assumptions don't necessarily hold true in Golarion.
Perhaps Golarion wizards don't use spellbooks, and Golarion monks don't have ki pools, and Golarion barbarians don't have any alignment restrictions, and Golarion humans get a free bonus martial (or exotic, if they already have all Martial) weapon proficiency. There's no way to be sure, other than getting a ruling online, since the core book assumptions may not apply in Golarion.
PFS rulings tend to include stuff like 'no Crafting feats,' which may or may not be relevant to setting assumptions, so I'd be careful using them as a guideline.
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Slightly off-topic question.
Where does the "Golarion disallows deity-less Clerics" come from?
Is it in the Inner Sea World Guide (thus, whether I'm playing PFS or not, my Cleric has a deity)? In the Core Rulebook?
I don't play PFS, so I'm wondering where this notion actually stems from.
I believe it's in the Inner Sea world Guide, though I couldn't pinpoint where. James Jacobs has also stated so repeatedly, and his opinion is in fact controlling regarding Golarion canon.
Golarion my require a god to be a cleric but the idea of reluctant clerics seems acceptable. One of the Pathfinder Tales "Deaths Heretic" is all about a cleric who hates his goddess. So I think it is perfectly acceptable in Golarion to be a cleric of a god and not even like or respect that god. It is simply a power relationship with both sides using each other.
Rules wise as stated: Pathfinder no god need to be cleric. In Golarion and pfs yes god needed.
Golarion my require a god to be a cleric but the idea of reluctant clerics seems acceptable. One of the Pathfinder Tales "Deaths Heretic" is all about a cleric who hates his goddess. So I think it is perfectly acceptable in Golarion to be a cleric of a god and not even like or respect that god. It is simply a power relationship with both sides using each other.
Rules wise as stated: Pathfinder no god need to be cleric. In Golarion and pfs yes god needed.
Well, in PFS, anyway.
If you're not in organized play, you can throw anything you like out of any published setting.
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Slightly off-topic question.Where does the "Golarion disallows deity-less Clerics" come from?
Is it in the Inner Sea World Guide (thus, whether I'm playing PFS or not, my Cleric has a deity)? In the Core Rulebook?
I don't play PFS, so I'm wondering where this notion actually stems from.
It doesn't. It's a fairly new ruling from here on the boards, and like Set mentioned has actually been contradicted many times in the actual material, (which was then retconned out) but I would say it's something that is a year or two old now. PFS is it's own beast, where a lot of options are restricted for universal fairness of play.
PFS is it's own beast, where a lot of options are restricted for universal fairness of play.
Not just universal fairness, but even alien issues incomprehensible to mortals that the heads won't tell you about! Its a wild beast with lots of rules of its own and a weird WBL. Its also led by a group of nameless characters with mask who I know nothing about!
So where did the OP go anyway?
Even though the book states the two chosen domains of a non-deity Cleric have to make sense in context.
An example would be a nihilist with the Death and Void domains, or a dualist with the Sun and Darkness domains.
True, but the reason sited for Clerics requiring a Patron Deity in PFS is because they feel it would be unbalanced otherwise (which is kind of ridiculous, but whatever), cherry picking Domains.
They can't cherry pick them, though ... they have to (or at least should, I think) explain their cleric's ideal/philosophy to their DM, then explain how the domains relate to said ideal.
True, but the reason sited for Clerics requiring a Patron Deity in PFS is because they feel it would be unbalanced otherwise (which is kind of ridiculous, but whatever), cherry picking Domains.They can't cherry pick them, though ... they have to (or at least should, I think) explain their cleric's ideal/philosophy to their DM, then explain how the domains relate to said ideal.
I think he means they could pick whatever they want and power game. Its fallacy that restrictions keeps that from happening, it just forces the players to pick particular deities. Powergames gonna' game. I was always told it was a thing about setting and people don't make extreme characters like a paladin of Asmodaeus, but again, those people are going to do that anyway. They also happened to have banned Vivisectionist for no reason, best not question their madness.
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The title is not to be confrontational; it merely addresses the issue of how there can possibly be clerics who don't worship deities when that is the only kind of cleric you ever see in Pathfinder.
Except that's not what the title of the thread says. The thread title has nothing to do with asking if Clerics can worship something other than a deity, it asks if it's possible for Clerics to be something other than fanatical. That's two entirely different lines of thought. Perhaps the former is what you "meant" to say but it's not what you conveyed. Though you seem to think the two lines of thought are one and the same, which is untrue. For the record, I'm an atheist, so its not like I take offense to your post, but I do recognize their are Major differences between being deeply pious and outright fanatical. One can easily be a person of powerful conviction and spirituality without ever coming within 100 yards of being considered a fanatic. In fact, many people of faith are often quite perturbed by fanaticism.
This may be why some people see your title as confrontational. Just an FYI.
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I think he means they could pick whatever they want and power game. Its fallacy that restrictions keeps that from happening, it just forces the players to pick particular deities.True, but the reason sited for Clerics requiring a Patron Deity in PFS is because they feel it would be unbalanced otherwise (which is kind of ridiculous, but whatever), cherry picking Domains.They can't cherry pick them, though ... they have to (or at least should, I think) explain their cleric's ideal/philosophy to their DM, then explain how the domains relate to said ideal.
Yah, there seems to be two different conversations here, and I'm not sure how it got off track. What I was saying was, that in PFS it was specified that all Clerics must have a Patron Deity, specifically because they felt it would be too unfair/OP/power gaming if Clerics could just pick two Domains that they wanted. I'm not talking about in PF in general, just that, this was the reasoning behind the ruling, in PFS originally.
For the Vivisectionist, and a few other things like the Undead Lord, they sited that they felt it didn't fit well, hinting at the idea it caused to many problems at the table, such as with Paladins and Clerics of Pharasma and other good deities that didn't like undead, but also failed to remove Necromancers and other things that likewise are Undead related or "distasteful".
Cleric service an idea, was more a throwback to Old Basis D&D, i think.
When D&D red box set came out, you could play a Cleric. But no gods, or Deities were listed in the first three original box sets, of the baseline game. In Fact, the fourth box set, was based on the player advancing into becoming Immortals ( aka deities ).
If you wanted gods, you had to buy the Game setting box set: Dragonlance, Forgotten realms, Grayhawk, or Mystrea.
Even in 1st ed AD&D the first Gods Hardback book, read more like a monster manual. Were the gods could be outright fault, battled, defeated, and even killed by mortals.
......................
Another way to look at is
1) Gods all powerful = cleric get there power form the gods = If your a mortal, your noting more than a flesh-bag of mostly water, and just another ant for the gods to step on.
2) Gods are just illusions = Cleric have the power, they just do not know it = The gods are the creation of the hope/dreams/nightmares of the clerics, so in other words.... The gods get there powers from the collective energy's of the Clerics and followers. When the cleric and follower disappear, then so do the gods.
3) Gods are immortal, but not all knowing. = They are just long lived creatures/aliens/people. Clerics get there power from there faith and believes, which has nothing to do with the immortal creatures poising as gods.
4) All of the above, very from land to land, world to world, or city to city.
I kinda like 3. Something like the gods in the Homeric epics, though perhaps not so commonly and directly involved in mortal affairs. They remind me of mob bosses in those: you say the right words, build the temples, do the hekatombs, pour out the libations, etc. If someone disses you you call in a favor like mass slaughter or plague on your enemies.
I definitely prefer #2 off that list; the power is based on faith and is purely internal. However, some clerics need a crutch, so they anthropomorphize their faith into a 'god'.
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To the OP:
I think you ignore a major difference between reality and Pathfinder. In reality, what you mostly see is monotheistic religions, each following a god which is by definition the ultimate power in the universe. That forces those faiths into a position where they must declare themselves to be the only, ultimate truth. No other faith could coexist with theirs, and non-believers are considered to be people who refuse to see that one and only truth.
However in Pathfinder, the word "god" has another meaning. It generally means a super powered entity so strong, that it can grant it's worshipers with powers. Those entities are not single nor ultimate, and neither can their existence be disputed.
The end result should reflect this difference. Where in the real world being a devout follower of one faith requires that you denounce all other ways of living and consider yourself to be the follower of the only truth, in Golarion or other fantasy settings choosing a god is more akin to choosing a style of life. A cleric CAN be a fanatic, of course, but it's not a requirement. You can have faith in your own god and still recognize that other people have equally justified faiths in other powers, or maybe even no faith at all.