The heavy magic realm of Golarin is one of the things I strongly dislike about Pathfinder. Ye old magic shops, potions stores…ugh, it’s just too cheesy for me.
I much prefer the model that Tolkien used. Magic is rare, unique and full of wonder. Magic weapons are so rare that they have names.
Geez, this again? Look, a potion of CLW costs a significant % of starting gold, and WBL.
Next, Tolkien was ANYTHING but “low magic”. The Fellowship had: The Single Most Powerful Artifact in the World, The Third Most Powerful Artifact in the World, Artifact Sword, Two relic named swords (but note Sting was named as a joke), a version of the Invulnerable Coat of Arnt, three Bane daggers (what were their names? ), a cloak of elvenkind for all, the Stone of Galadriel, Gandalfs staff, Aragorns ring, Boromirs horn, Legolas bowstring… etc etc. That party was loaded. Heck magic weapons were so common no one noted the powerful bane daggers that the hobbits carried until one of them brought the Witchking to his knees.
I don't think I ever expressed the term "low magic".
My point is magic items are something special in Tolkien. A sword was not just a +2 longsword. It was Glamdring the foe hammer. Yes, there was a lot of magic items but NONE of them were found in the Ye'Old magic store.
And those items were rare. When it was discovered the Frodo had a Mithral vest Gimli just about craped his pants. The characters in Lord of the Rings had some awesome gear no question about that, but it was not gear you could just find anyware. Each item had significance.
And BTW the one ring was more of a MacGuffin than a magic item. It might be the one MacGuffin to rule them all.
-MD
If magic items were more rare it would be ok as long as my character could get along without them, otherwise I would be wary of using Pathfinder to emulate the lack of magic/magic items in many books, and movies.
Yeah I know you were not saying that should be done, but the game is what is.
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What I have done, as my party doesn't have much in the way of healing is that I chose to use the Wounds/Vigor rules with some slight modifications. That way, the Vigor heals up much faster than hp normally would, and I slowed things down a little. Later, I know there will be time limits and they will need to find creative ways to push ahead, but with some good management it could work fine.
However, in your case, I don't know if that will work for you. Instead, I would use it as a roleplaying opportunity. Make it a quest of sorts to find a healer that they can go to, or one that may be willing to accompany them for a ways. Make it well known that they can only rely on this source of healing as long as they keep him or her happy. If they abuse it, they lose it. Same as anything else.
What do you think?
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Honestly, I just wouldn't have 7 players but I know it happens sometimes. And I honestly might just kill one of them. If they have to make a new character, 6 other people are going to berate them until they make a cleric, and then problem solved.
Bran, -NEVER- do this. NEVER EVER. You've made it clear that your party is having fun and enjoying the game right now. Following this advice and forcing one of them into a role they don't want will just make a player -very- unhappy. And unhappy players make it bad for everyone.
The infernal scroll is a fun idea. You could also have them get healing from somewhere other than the church, at large gold cost and some... shady side dealings. The mob runs thick in Sandpoint^.^ And RotRL is one of those settings where the town's view of you is important.
Basically, IMO, it seems like your players would enjoy a solution that doesn't TPK everyone, but does create troublesome yet fun hijinks. It's not about punishing them for their hubris. It's about letting them know "This is going to be really rough on you guys and you need to come up with solutions just as much, if not more, than I do."
Pathfinder is Pathfinder.
If you're willing to venture into house rule territory, I can make great suggestions for solving the no-healer problem AND the generic magic item problem.
But without house rules, the best and wisest thing is to just embrace the game for what it is.
I agree and even more so if you are playing a Pathfinder adventure path.
But outside of a module you can play pathfinder without magic shops. It's not an intrisic part of the realm.
As for 7 players with no healers. I agree with the don't coddle crowd. If one dies...so be it.
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well said...
I think I've only made two houserules and i'd like to keep it that way. let the story play out, follow raw pathfinder, and put vegas odds on who will drop first and roll up a cleric. wouldn't it be crazy if a pc died and didn't make a cleric? lol, the group would scream like harpies!!!
It doesn't even have to be a cleric. Druid, Oracle, Inquisitor, or Bard can all be very useful to the group in spell and special ability support while still being able to heal when needed. Hell, an oracle of life can do it better than a cleric. A bard with Inspire Courage would be golden in this party even without healing abilities. Inquisitor has a lot of allies to use those teamwork feats with. Druid could help out the wizard with offensive magic.
What I have done, as my party doesn't have much in the way of healing is that I chose to use the Wounds/Vigor rules with some slight modifications. That way, the Vigor heals up much faster than hp normally would, and I slowed things down a little. Later, I know there will be time limits and they will need to find creative ways to push ahead, but with some good management it could work fine.
However, in your case, I don't know if that will work for you. Instead, I would use it as a roleplaying opportunity. Make it a quest of sorts to find a healer that they can go to, or one that may be willing to accompany them for a ways. Make it well known that they can only rely on this source of healing as long as they keep him or her happy. If they abuse it, they lose it. Same as anything else.
What do you think?
nice..
I made an assistant to zanthus named leopold. after a while the party made a 50 gp donation to him thinking they had secured a free healing option. the next day he went to the town of ravenmoor....possible side quest?!?!
Honestly, I just wouldn't have 7 players but I know it happens sometimes. And I honestly might just kill one of them. If they have to make a new character, 6 other people are going to berate them until they make a cleric, and then problem solved.Bran, -NEVER- do this. NEVER EVER. You've made it clear that your party is having fun and enjoying the game right now. Following this advice and forcing one of them into a role they don't want will just make a player -very- unhappy. And unhappy players make it bad for everyone.
The infernal scroll is a fun idea. You could also have them get healing from somewhere other than the church, at large gold cost and some... shady side dealings. The mob runs thick in Sandpoint^.^ And RotRL is one of those settings where the town's view of you is important.
Basically, IMO, it seems like your players would enjoy a solution that doesn't TPK everyone, but does create troublesome yet fun hijinks. It's not about punishing them for their hubris. It's about letting them know "This is going to be really rough on you guys and you need to come up with solutions just as much, if not more, than I do."
sage advice....
they are having fun and I would hate if they subconsciously are hoping their friends bite the big one. let's just see what happens. I also like the infernal healing idea. the idea of taking trips in the catacolmbs of wrath to get unholy water is just twisted!!!
The heavy magic realm of Golarin is one of the things I strongly dislike about Pathfinder. Ye old magic shops, potions stores…ugh, it’s just too cheesy for me.
I much prefer the model that Tolkien used. Magic is rare, unique and full of wonder. Magic weapons are so rare that they have names.
Geez, this again? Look, a potion of CLW costs a significant % of starting gold, and WBL.
Next, Tolkien was ANYTHING but “low magic”. The Fellowship had: The Single Most Powerful Artifact in the World, The Third Most Powerful Artifact in the World, Artifact Sword, Two relic named swords (but note Sting was named as a joke), a version of the Invulnerable Coat of Arnt, three Bane daggers (what were their names? ), a cloak of elvenkind for all, the Stone of Galadriel, Gandalfs staff, Aragorns ring, Boromirs horn, Legolas bowstring… etc etc. That party was loaded. Heck magic weapons were so common no one noted the powerful bane daggers that the hobbits carried until one of them brought the Witchking to his knees.
I don't think I ever expressed the term "low magic".
My point is magic items are something special in Tolkien. A sword was not just a +2 longsword. It was Glamdring the foe hammer. Yes, there was a lot of magic items but NONE of them were found in the Ye'Old magic store.
And those items were rare. When it was discovered the Frodo had a Mithral vest Gimli just about craped his pants. The characters in Lord of the Rings had some awesome gear no question about that, but it was not gear you could just find anyware. Each item had significance.
All four hobbits had a very powerful bane dagger. None were named nor did any of the Wise remark on their rareness. They literally "just found them". One barrow of loot. None were named. They didn't seem to be that rare.
True, none were found in “ye olde magik shope” but the elves handed out a pile of pelf, and there was huge loot in several caches. So, not ‘anywhere” but in the barrows, in a dragons hoard, in the trolls horde, handed out by the elves, etc. Three trolls had three “relic’ level swords.
Yes, The Mithral vest was remarkable, but Thorin handed it to Bilbo without a qualm- and again, it’s the equivalent of the Coat of Arnt.
I can understand letting the players play what they want. That said, I probably would pull 0 punches on this AP and let a dead player or 2 come back with something better.
Its not just healing in this AP, status removal is also key, and the amount you would have to band aid the world would be to much.
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The heavy magic realm of Golarin is one of the things I strongly dislike about Pathfinder. Ye old magic shops, potions stores…ugh, it’s just too cheesy for me.
I much prefer the model that Tolkien used. Magic is rare, unique and full of wonder. Magic weapons are so rare that they have names.
Geez, this again? Look, a potion of CLW costs a significant % of starting gold, and WBL.
Next, Tolkien was ANYTHING but “low magic”. The Fellowship had: The Single Most Powerful Artifact in the World, The Third Most Powerful Artifact in the World, Artifact Sword, Two relic named swords (but note Sting was named as a joke), a version of the Invulnerable Coat of Arnt, three Bane daggers (what were their names? ), a cloak of elvenkind for all, the Stone of Galadriel, Gandalfs staff, Aragorns ring, Boromirs horn, Legolas bowstring… etc etc. That party was loaded. Heck magic weapons were so common no one noted the powerful bane daggers that the hobbits carried until one of them brought the Witchking to his knees.
I don't think I ever expressed the term "low magic".
My point is magic items are something special in Tolkien. A sword was not just a +2 longsword. It was Glamdring the foe hammer. Yes, there was a lot of magic items but NONE of them were found in the Ye'Old magic store.
And those items were rare. When it was discovered the Frodo had a Mithral vest Gimli just about craped his pants. The characters in Lord of the Rings had some awesome gear no question about that, but it was not gear you could just find anyware. Each item had significance.
All four hobbits had a very powerful bane dagger. None were named nor did any of the Wise remark on their rareness. They literally "just found them". One barrow of loot. None were named. They didn't seem to be that rare.
True, none were found in “ye olde magik shope” but the elves handed out a pile of pelf, and there was huge loot in several caches. So,...
I personally prefer my loot this way to magic shops. I prefer to bestow magic upon my players, because that way it is tailored to that person's goal/class/quest, not just a random piece that they might just decide to sell, because they can buy something better.
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There is this lovely skill in the CRB called "Heal". It can't repair ability drain, but it can take care of quite a few other problems at little or nor cost other than in-game time.
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I personally prefer my loot this way to magic shops. I prefer to bestow magic upon my players, because that way it is tailored to that person's goal/class/quest, not just a random piece that they might just decide to sell, because they can buy something better
Yeah, I agree. Other than consumables, I don’t care for Ye Olde Magik Shoppe. But I am generous with cool loot.
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There is this lovely skill in the CRB called "Heal". It can't repair ability drain, but it can take care of quite a few other problems at little or nor cost other than in-game time.
Probably my favorite skill! I have a monk in PFS that uses Heal liberally! ^_^ The only cost is 2 uses of a healer's kit!
EDIT: Of course, time permitting. :p
I'm going to be honest here from the perspective of a DM who has run that adventure path several times.
IF you do not hand them the game by making sure to include MUCH more healing or times where they can stop and go buy more healing,they will not make it to the end unless that is one hell of a group.
Some of those encounters WITH a healer are HARD.Even with seven PC's I just do not see them winning some of those battles unless they are in the top 10% of gamers.
I know of at least one fight that resulted in a full party wipe with 2 fighters,1 cleric,1 druid,1 Wizard and 1 Ranger(Urban). That was with healing potions and wands of healing.
Now all that said,my players tend to be the Charge right in and kill everything that moves type. I'm sure that MANY err smarter play styles can go far beyond what my guys typically do.
Many battles in that adventure path can indeed be healed afterwards with potions,wands ect..but many will need in combat heals.
Some of those npc's will NOT be the type to let a low pc get away many of those fights will target one type of party member faw more than another.
In those cases,dead pc's will add up and make the situation worse for those remaining.
bad German accent Kill zem, kill zem all. /bad German accent
If they can't get their Heal skill on, they're pooched.
750gp divided by 7
well that was easy
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hi everyone, I am currently running ROTRL anniversary for 7 players. After much advice, my players did not feel the need to create a cleric, paladin, or any healing class. They have smashed their way thru the story so far, drinking healing potions and knocking on the door of the cathedral to BEG for healing and ability damage help. After the 3rd time, Father Zanthus suggested they might want to find a way to help themselves. They looked confused when I told them they didn't have a npc cleric to hire(tough enough controlling 7 players, now npcs too)How would you handle this as a DM in this situation? Is it realistic to think Sandpoint has endless potions/scrolls of clw, restoration, remove poison? I mean really, they still have to go to Thistletop, then onto an undead themed second story with haunts in Skinsaw. I should be INCREASING cr for 7 players, but two or three encounters and they're limping around with ability damage and low hp. I look forward to your take on this situation....ty
They best buy a lot of potions :)
Currently I am in a party with 4 others(5 total) and we have no healer either. Also in Rise of the Runelords. We quaff potions like no tomorrow - or run away from battle and come back later with a better plan. Potions seem to be the best option since a scroll or wand would require UMD skill points and hopefully not a bad roll that goes along with it.
Well, like what others have said, when a few pcs die they will make new characters and hopefully be making a few support class types.
I say support cause of this, you shouldn't leve the healing to just one pc, have a back up healer or 2. Works great imo. They can have spells to control the battlefield and slow the damage output. Its a great party comp from what I've seen.
I'm going to be honest here from the perspective of a DM who has run that adventure path several times.
IF you do not hand them the game by making sure to include MUCH more healing or times where they can stop and go buy more healing,they will not make it to the end unless that is one hell of a group.
Some of those encounters WITH a healer are HARD.Even with seven PC's I just do not see them winning some of those battles unless they are in the top 10% of gamers.
I know of at least one fight that resulted in a full party wipe with 2 fighters,1 cleric,1 druid,1 Wizard and 1 Ranger(Urban). That was with healing potions and wands of healing.
Now all that said,my players tend to be the Charge right in and kill everything that moves type. I'm sure that MANY err smarter play styles can go far beyond what my guys typically do.
Many battles in that adventure path can indeed be healed afterwards with potions,wands ect..but many will need in combat heals.
Some of those npc's will NOT be the type to let a low pc get away many of those fights will target one type of party member faw more than another.
In those cases,dead pc's will add up and make the situation worse for those remaining.
yes agree,
but, we are still having fun. the story is rich and exciting...I've told them the story will continue despite pc deaths......
ty for your imput!!!