Goblin Squad Member
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How would you deal with toxic players or the ones who expect everything? I've helped out new players before and it often turns into them expecting everything to be done for them ("run me through x", "I need this quest", etc.). Would you just limit the help to little more than advice or would there be some form of blacklisting for problematic new players?
"Give a man a fish, you have fed him for a meal. Teach a man to fish, you have fed him for a lifetime" Or it goes something like that.
Teaching Cycle:
1. Model the skill or method
2. Observe Use
3. Modify if necessary
4. Observe Use
5. Analyze Results and Review
6. Remediate or Move Onto Next Step
As far as walk-throughs, I hope that there are none. Dungeons should never be repeatable. This way they are always a new experience, even for a veteran player.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree with Bludd's quote; I don't plan on throwing all kinds of stuff on a new player, but I might give them tools, a set or partial set of basic armor, a basic weapon, maybe a few consumables. It all depends on what we get before we're sent out into the world. Might also have some raw mats and such for teaching crafting, if that system needs to be taught (that is, if it's any more complex than press a button and get X% chance of success). I mean, it's hard to say what I'll be giving out until we're in game. But I'll emphasize teaching them "Here's an item. Here's what you use it for. Here's how you get more," instead of just handing a whole ton of stuff to them and leaving.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe I'm just too jaded from dealing with large numbers of new players who just want others to do everything for them :p
I too agree with Bluddwolf's quote, provided they are willing to learn, which can sometimes be an issue.
I guess one thing I'm still confused about is whether this will function something like EVE University* or not. Ie. the new players join the corporation (company or even a small settlement here) and participate in fleets (formations) and the like. Or is it going to be more like Walmart greeters: "Hi, how can I help you?" "I want to play a bandit" "Press 'r' to look up company recruitment and scroll down to Unnamed Company."
*I've played EVE, but never joined EVE university so I can only go off of what I read about them, so please correct me if I'm wrong about what they do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Somewhere on the first page of this thread we discussed the possibility of forming a company for the program, but until we have more information about all the requirements and restrictions of companies, I will not ask anyone to join an exclusive Guide company. Being a Guide is not a full-time profession and I would not limit any Guide's other endeavors by their membership to this Program. As for new player joining a Guide Program company, personally, I'm not interested in running a guild. I also don't know enough about companies yet to know if such a training company will be beneficial enough to warrant the possible risks, abuse, or targeting of new players that might come with such a practice.
Yes, we will hopefully be acting as greeters and community networkers/contacts with potential companies/settlements that new players might be interested in, but we will also be in-person assistants for answering questions, providing directions and advice, and even escorting new players around a starter town and the nearby outlying area. We will certainly be explaining game basics and demonstrating desired practices.
Do I have any intention of turning this into a more Eve Online University with set lessons and drills - no. Depending on their own personal interests and skills, Guides will be unique helpers, not scripted teachers. If one Guide does not have the expertise to answer a particular question or demonstrate a desired skill, we hope to have access to a Guide Program online library as well as contact information for all the other Guides so as to refer the player to the Guide best suited to their needs. After all, Guides are volunteers, not employees.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While avoiding a playbook is nice, Guides will want to relate to each other what they're doing to find the consensus on what is common to meet the newbies knowing what the most common newbies' experiences are with the program. That would go for both material gifts and time/effort expenditures. It will keep Guides from being surprised with "But I heard that Shane Gifford guy gives you a house, 2 mules, spends the day with you and..."
THen we know if that's just not normal and we can feel free to say "Well why don't you marry him?"
As for new players who really do expect an unreasonable amount of effort or goods from goodwill volunteers I propose "We're not hre to play the game for you" as an unofficial motto for those situations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I will trust in the good judgement of the those willing to be Guides to decide how much time and material gifts they desire to spend on each person they assist. I am sure that as the program develops, Guides will share ideas and common practices will crop up, but I have no intention of setting operational doctrine other than the guidelines outlined in the original post.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I fully expect to discuss with the other Guides how much we all feel is enough or too little, and decide for myself how much to give based on input from the other Guides and my own personal opinion. I would be honored to have newbies asking after me, but it's my hope that the entire Guide Program is so fantastic that they're happy with our welcome no matter which Guide they get.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For those who like to PvP, remember, PvP is most fun with a worthy foe, so it benefits the community as a whole to inform and prepare our opponents to fight us. Be the one that helps to make PFO's community the best MMO experience we've all had!
Some foes will be challenging, others not. "Worthy" is a all together different consideration and one I do not generally consider.
I do plan on training pvpers in the arts of ambush, raiding and SADs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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<-looks askance at Bluddwolf's clown shoes...>
Did I confuse you?
A "Worthy Opponent" in my mind is someone I respect, have had frequent encounters with and who has shown me an equal respect.
I do not select my potential targets based on their "Worthiness". I choose them based on the risk vs. reward presentation they offer. I do not seek out worthy opponents, just opponents I'm fairly certain I can beat and loot.
For purposes of the Guide Program, I'm looking to teach new players how to be bandits and raiders, not those looking to engage in Gentlemanly Duels of Honor.
"Worthy Opponents" can also have the connotation of "Willing Opponents". That too is not a consideration.
But, I will train new players in Banditry / Raiding Done Right. This means, without griefing, within the prescribed circumstances that GW wishes to see (as best we can or opportunities present themselves).
"Kill Sparingly, Loot Freely" is a motto I would like to put to the test, and if effective I would like to teach to others.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Consider that every bandit you train is a bandit you have to compete with for the limited number of easily attackable merchants. So, in a way, you are indeed training up worthy adversaries for yourself.
Would be fun to see an unofficial Outlaw Council if there isn't an official one in-game (or even if there is), so that the bandits and outlaws can share stories (read: brag ceaselessly :P) about their exploits. "Oh yeah, well UNC took down a convoy of 30 men today, and half the guards were in T3! The loot was well worth it too!" and so on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Consider that every bandit you train is a bandit you have to compete with for the limited number of easily attackable merchants. So, in a way, you are indeed training up worthy adversaries for yourself.
Would be fun to see an unofficial Outlaw Council if there isn't an official one in-game (or even if there is), so that the bandits and outlaws can share stories (read: brag ceaselessly :P) about their exploits. "Oh yeah, well UNC took down a convoy of 30 men today, and half the guards were in T3! The loot was well worth it too!" and so on.
I'm hoping to have the reputation similar to Agony Unleashed or EvE University as a training company for many or hopefully a majority of the criminals in PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just a thought. I wouldn't mind being a guide. The way I personally would do it is to set aside a non-XP gaining alt in a starting area. That character could be tagged in an easily recognized GUIDE company and would have some basic gear available if we decide the new player could use it and deserves it.
If a new player wants to PvP, maybe do some sparring and if they defeat you, hand over a weapon that they can use. I personally would let them win just to boost their confidence.
PvE, take them out for a bit of basic hunting.
A gatherer, show them some resources to collect and give them a pick or saw (I'm not real sure how gathering is going to be achieved TBH, but you get the idea).
Pax Gaming doesn't allow for players to belong to multiple guilds on the same server, and since there's only one server, maybe Pax could waive the requirement to allow for us to carry the GUIDE tag on one character.
I personally don't see a need to use a character with high XP and skills except to show off my leetness. :p
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Goblin Squad Member
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Pax Gaming doesn't allow for players to belong to multiple guilds on the same server, and since there's only one server, maybe Pax could waive the requirement to allow for us to carry the GUIDE tag on one character.
I would hope so, since as of my latest information the guy who started the Guide Program is now also a Pax member. I'd imagine some contention otherwise.
However, there are different types of 'Guilds' - Sponsored Companies and Unsponsored Companies. The Sponsored ones are affiliated with a settlement and comprise of your major guild. Each character can join one and only one - your Pax guild is one of these I believe. Unsponsored companies are not affiliated with a settlement, and you can join a couple of them (2 I think) with the same character. So long as the guide program does not go sponsored, there should be no conflict of interest.
At least, that is the argument I would make if I were trying to appeal to your leadership.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As stated almost a year ago when this thread first started, my intention is not to create a "guild" in the usual sense for the Guide Program. I do not want Guides to feel like they cannot fully participate in other aspects of the game, belong to other Companies, etc.
We have yet to see if membership in an unsponsored company will provide benefits valuable enough to create an unsponsored Guide company. Also, as I understand companies thus far, they will be limited in size to around 50 members? If so, I would not wish to place a cap on the number of people who want to help others.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The soft cap may not matter to an association that doesn't have any real needs to spend influence on things.
Alternately there could be regional guide CC's. One can guide anyone anywhere and when you see any region's tag you know that character is a Guide, but Guides more in the area where they live, which helps stay in the optimal size range.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Though this program will likely not be needed for a good portion of EE (since we'll be the new players still learning the ropes), I have every intention of still making this work. Those who wish to be Guides will likely be taking notes and planning procedures as we learn the game so as to better prepare future newcomers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Though this program will likely not be needed for a good portion of EE (since we'll be the new players still learning the ropes), I have every intention of still making this work. Those who wish to be Guides will likely be taking notes and planning procedures as we learn the game so as to better prepare future newcomers.
Darn right we will!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Dear PFO Community,
Since my original post, we have learned some particulars about the game could possibly have some influence on how the Guide program might best work. Originally, I shied away from the idea of Guides being in a common "Guide Program" Company. Asking volunteers to give of their game-time to help others seemed a large enough sacrifice...I did not want any Guide to miss out on participation in a Company associated with their settlement, trade, etc.
However, with more recent Developer comments, it may be possible to create a Guide Program Company so that Guides might benefit from several features which I hope Companies offer. First, here is the quote from Tork Shaw about Companies which might make this possible:
"Characters can be members of 3 companies. Your primary company (determined by the player) get 100% of your influence gains. Your secondary company gets 50%. Your tertiary company gets 0%."
With this new information, the hope would be that guides could be members of the Guide Program Company via their third company slot. This third company seems to be more for the interaction with social groups rather than the accumulation and spending of influence, which Guides would not need to carry out their duties. The hope is that several common "guild" (in this case "Company") features would be available for Guide use:
1. The Company Name - For recognition and legitimacy, membership would hopefully provide Guides with a Company name/title that people could see and be assured that they were dealing with legitimate Guides.
2. Communication - Hopefully Companies will enjoy a common Company chat channel. In this way , Guides could network with one another to better service their charges.
3. Banking/Storage - Though it is not clear if Companies (especially third Companies) will have Company banking as traditional guilds do in other games, but it would be helpful as a way to store free goods for the new players, if desired.
If Companies having a soft cap of 50 means that the Guide Program would be constrained by Company membership limitations, we could attempt to make three Guide Program Companies, one for each of the three eventual starter towns. Guides of similar alignment could associate themselves with the appropriate starter town and the new player community that "spawns" there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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DAoC had a /advice chat channel where questions would only be seen by players who had enabled a /advisor flag. I thought this was an elegant and low-investment way to put volunteer helpers in touch with those wanting help.
After the UO and AOL volunteer program lawsuits, any game company should be leery of implementing or even permitting anything much more involved that. I don't like that that's where litigious volunteers put us, but wishing won't change it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was in the Companion program in UO, and worked extensively to help new players before that program even opened. That it would be totally player run without any assistance from GW is the way I have described it all along. Are you saying we need to worry about being helpful to fellow players?
Actually, one Paizo employee has already chimed in with his opinion.
This is awesome.
- Paizo Cheif Technical Officer.
Also, what about EVE University?
If this seems like a real issue, I would like to hear from Ryan before people invest the time and effort.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What about the vitriolic beliefs that EVE devs helped certain alliances?
If Guides have anything special from GW that isn't equally available to any other players, sooner or later someone will get miffed and start spouting how somebody is using their Guide Powers to inappropriately help their own company, whether it's true or not.
It's easier on GW and the Guides in general if it stays a totally player-run organization without any GW involvement. In the above context, having a distinct names, banking, chat channel for each company (/c1, /c2, /c3) for every player are sufficient mechanics to give us the environment we need to take it from there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Been mulling over an EVE University like construct, settlement and all. Depending on how the alignment step stuff ends up working, it might be doable and spreading yourself thin in lower tier facilities wouldn't be an issue for that settlement given it's nature.
Would need to make some defense pacts with the larger groups to insure it stayed up, but since it serves somewhat as a recruitment center/training ground it could be seen as useful to them in return.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Duffy,
I've thought the same. I used to run a community center primarily focused on helping new players in Ultima Online. One large difference there, your buildings couldn't be damaged by other players.
I was just about to post another way to help the program...a bit more typing to do first.