It's obviously a weapon training bonus. It won't stack. The only difference between it and weapon training is it mandates the weapons you pick, and makes a shield/weapon stylist viable.
Pretty sure this would fall under the 'same source' interpretation and not stack. Just because 'Strong Swing' doesn't say 'weapon training' doesn't change the fact it's a class feature and won't stack with another class feature that way...the same way, say, you wouldn't stack weapon training if you were using an urgosh, which could fall into two different weapon training groups. Or a pick with a hammer backer, or something.
Note that things like Rage actually state WHAT the new bonus to Str/Con are, to avoid the whole stacking problem with class features.
Whether Gloves of the Duelist work with them is a no, strictly speaking, because the ability doesn't say 'weapon training'. Since you are getting two very disparate weapons enhanced at the same time, that's probably okay. Your DM will probably let you, however.
==Aelryinth
If it looks like a Duck, walks like a Duck, and quacks like a Duck, it's probably a Duck.
or, it's a witch...they do weigh the same and both float in water!
+1 to Swashbucklersdc....man I'm getting some laughs tonight....thanks guys
the problem here is that you are trying to jive the system by getting weapon training, a class feature that mimics weapon training, and stacking both on the same weapon.
That should tell you right there it is NOT permissible. It's cheese. It is extremely plain that the sword/buckler thing is a powerful and directed effect that replaces Weapon Training. It is also NOT supposed to stack with weapon training, because it replaces it.
A strict reading of rules can go either way. One way allows double stacking of a class effect, the other way allows Dueling gloves to apply to substitution effects.
The latter way is obviously more balanced. I would interpret 'replaces Weapon Training' with a similar effect that counts as weapon training for the gloves, and be satisfied.
==Aelryinth
I suspect that the actual answer is that the Rondelero should have replaced all levels of Weapon Training like every other archetype that focuses on one weapon or style, but since it's from a setting book it didn't get as much editorial scrutiny as it might have in a core book.
Either that, or it was intended that such characters stack their eventual regular weapon training on top. Because otherwise WT is almost completely pointless for a Rondelero - he's never going to use a weapon other than the one that works with Strong Swing.
Okay, is the Buckler Duelist the Rondelero Duelist? The SRD's names are making things confusing.
It's an obvious typo.
Our published version of the Mobile Fighter archetype in APG states that the Leaping Attack feature only reaplaces Weapon Training 1.
Looking at the D20PFSRD Website, it's obvious that the benefits aren't cumulative.
In addition, Reviewing the Buckler Duelist's similar Ability, it scales the same as the Mobile Fighter's ability; it's safe to assume that because they scale the same, the same level of class features should be exchanged.
On top of which, class feature chains that are replaced with the first rank means the character is unable to obtain that class feature at all; this clause from the Archetype descriptions supports this statement:
If an archetype replaces a class feature that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a fighter's weapon training or a ranger's favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype.
The bolded part emphasizes that the Weapon Training would only accumulate if it was something you already had to begin with, and even if it did, it would scale to a rank you previously didn't have before that was replaced with another feature.
Also, since the Weapon Training bonuses to your attack and damage come from the same source (Class Features from archetypes of the same Core Class), they would not stack, as is appropriate with buffs and debuffs stacking. If we took 2 archetypes that had Weapon Training 1, this doesn't give you 2 ranks of Weapon Training; only one, since they are both the same thing.
Design Manager
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Archetype: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability?
It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. .
Looks like Buckler Duelist can benefit from both per the related FAQ.
It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. .Looks like Buckler Duelist can benefit from both per the related FAQ.
Incorrect. The FAQ only brings up for abilities that specify or adjust according to the archetype (yet have the same exact mechanics and similar progression) functioning with other items that enhance said abilities.
In addition, it's an obvious typo (which needs to be Errata'd). It scales the same as Weapon Training, and thusly it should replace the same levels of Weapon Training.
Plus, it doesn't stack anyway because they both come from the same source. Bonuses from the same source don't stack.
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Design Manager
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I think you are wrong on all counts Darksol, at least per RAW. They are not the same source, Strong Swing and Weapn Training are two separate features gained by the archetype. And since they're untyped bonuses, they stack.
As far as the FAQ only applying to items that enhance said abilities, I don't realyy see that from the FAQ. It says " If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability? " and then goes on to provide an explanation that states pretty definitively that Strong Swing and Weapon Training would be two different things. If they're not the same for Gloves of Dueling, why would they be the same for stacking?
I think you are wrong on all counts Darksol, at least per RAW. They are not the same source, Strong Swing and Weapn Training are two separate features gained by the archetype. And since they're untyped bonuses, they stack.
As far as the FAQ only applying to items that enhance said abilities, I don't realyy see that from the FAQ. It says " If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability? " and then goes on to provide an explanation that states pretty definitively that Strong Swing and Weapon Training would be two different things. If they're not the same for Gloves of Dueling, why would they be the same for stacking?
Let's take a look at the examples listed in the FAQ you cited:
First example shows a feature that would work with Gloves of Dueling.
Example: The dragoon (fighter) archetype (Ultimate Combat) has an ability called "spear training," which requires the dragoon to select "spears" as his weapon training group, and refers to his weapon training bonus (even though this bonus follows a slightly different progression than standard weapon training). Therefore, this ability counts as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training, such as gloves of dueling (Advanced Player's Guide), which increase the wearer's weapon training bonus.
Second example shows a feature that does not work with Gloves of Dueling.
Example: The archer (fighter) archetype gets several abilities (such as "expert archer") which replace weapon training and do not otherwise refer to the weapon training ability. Therefore, this ability does not count as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training (such as gloves of dueling). This is the case even for the "expert archer," ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.
The FAQ only refers to features to be treated as abilities referenced for items that call for it. Obviously, Strong Swing will not get enhanced by Gloves of Dueling since it makes no mention of Weapon Training whatsoever.
It makes no claim as to what constitutes features providing the same bonuses, etc. You mistake my claim of "source" for "type"; obviously, both are untyped bonuses, and untyped bonuses stack together, but they come from the same origin, or in this case, class feature that is being replaced.
In addition, the character cannot jump from Weapon Training Rank 0 (i.e. not having the class feature) to Weapon Training Rank 2 (i.e. gaining the class feature) without having Weapon Training Rank 1. There is also no RAW to support an archetype with Weapon Training Rank 2 (from Weapon Training Rank 0) can be treated as Weapon Training Rank 1 for those who don't already have the class feature, the premise on which your argument has no room to stand.
**EDIT** I'd like to point your direction to a Channel Energy FAQ below the same one you cited:
Channel Energy: If I have this ability from more than one class, do they stack?
No—unless an ability specifically says it stacks with similar abilities (such as an assassin's sneak attack), or adds in some way based on the character's total class levels (such as improved uncanny dodge), the abilities don't stack and you have to use them separately. Therefore, cleric channeling doesn't stack with paladin channeling, necromancer channeling, oracle of life channeling, and so on.
Bolded the part relevant to our discussion. Notice how when the channel energy (a key class feature) is attempted to stack with similar abilities (other classes/archetypes that have Channel Energy), they are treated as separate entities that do not stack with each other. This further enforces my "Same Source Doesn't Stack" argument. Just food for thought...
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Design Manager
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Strong Swing is it's own thing. It's not somehow also Weapon Training, because if it were, it would say so. Your argument that Strong Swing isn't Weapon Training but it is Weapon Training is the most nonsensical thing I've ever heard. They are two separate sources of two separate bonuses. It's hard to say that they're not even intended to stack, as the archetype is being locked into a very specific and expensive combat style. Maybe they intended Weapon Training to be a way to shore up the classes versatility, with the possible side-effect of them being able to be almost as effective as a THF if they instead redirected those resources into their primary combat technique. Your Channel Energy FAQ is absolutely irrelevant to the point. If I were trying to add Sohei Weapon Training to Fighter Weapon Training, it might be relevant, but I'm adding two distinct abilities, that have different names, different methods of activation, etc.
Strong Swing is it's own thing. It's not somehow also Weapon Training, because if it were, it would say so. Your argument that Strong Swing isn't Weapon Training but it is Weapon Training is the most nonsensical thing I've ever heard. They are two separate sources of two separate bonuses. It's hard to say that they're not even intended to stack, as the archetype is being locked into a very specific and expensive combat style. Maybe they intended Weapon Training to be a way to shore up the classes versatility, with the possible side-effect of them being able to be almost as effective as a THF if they instead redirected those resources into their primary combat technique. Your Channel Energy FAQ is absolutely irrelevant to the point. If I were trying to add Sohei Weapon Training to Fighter Weapon Training, it might be relevant, but I'm adding two distinct abilities, that have different names, different methods of activation, etc.
I have made no claim that they were the same thing. The claim is that they both are abilities that increase the character's capability to hit with weapons, both of which functioning on the same levels.
The FAQ I cited is relevant in that they are both abilities that work in the same exact way, and don't stack, with Channel Energy being an example of such. Because they come from the same source(/class feature that is being replaced), they do not stack.
If they were intended to stack, as my FAQ calls out, the ability would specify that it does; the general rule then trumps, in that they don't stack.
Two Distinct Abilities, you say...several of the Fighter archetypes beg to differ. Let's reference the relevant mechanical abilities of the Strong Swing feature, and several others of which the Weapon Training is replaced by with other archetypes:
At 5th level, a buckler duelist gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when wielding a falcata and buckler that applies to attacks made by either hand.
At 3rd level, a brawler gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +3 bonus on damage rolls with weapons in the close weapon group.
At 5th level, a cad gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls against any creature that has attacked the cad since the beginning of his last turn.
At 5th level, a free hand fighter gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when wielding a melee weapon in one hand and leaving his other hand free.
At 5th level, when a mobile fighter moves at least 5 feet prior to attacking, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.
At 5th level, a shielded fighter gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a shield bash. These bonuses increase by +1 every four levels beyond 5th.
At 5th level, when a swordlord successfully disarms an opponent using a dueling sword, the swordlord also deals normal damage to the target, but without the normal Strength bonus to damage.
Several of these abilities replace some or all of the Weapon Training Features, and most of these have mechanics or niches that are required in order to gain the benefits, just like our little Buckler Duelist. Not much of a completely different ability, is it?
I have one more ability to cite that comes from a book different from what references it, of which only replaces Weapon Training 1, just like the Buckler Duelist does. Let's take the Tactician's Weapon Training 1 substitution:
At 5th level, a tactician gains this ability as the cavalier class feature. He may use this ability once per day at 5th level, plus one additional time for every five levels after 5th (to a maximum of four times at 20th level). If the tactician also has cavalier levels, these levels stack for determining the number of uses per day, and he can take the better progression.
This ability only replaces Weapon Training 1. By your ruling, does this mean he automatically gets Weapon Training 2 when he would otherwise qualify for it on top of the feature he already gets for Weapon Training 1? No.
Not only is that imbalanced, it's also makes no sense with the rules set for archetypes, just like how the Swordlord doesn't get free Weapon Training Ranks due to the ability that's adjusted with his.
They clearly stack. Weapon Training and Strong Swing are two separate sources. Untyped bonuses stack. So... they stack.
Now, if the FAQ about weapon training and the various archetype replacements was to be changed to state that they are in fact the same ability. Then, they would not stack... but you could also use gloves of dueling w/ archetype replacement abilities if that where to happen.
But currently, they stack.
I have made no claim that they were the same thing. The claim is that they both are abilities that increase the character's capability to hit with weapons, both of which functioning on the same levels.
Plus, it doesn't stack anyway because they both come from the same source. Bonuses from the same source don't stack.
Obviously, Strong Swing will not get enhanced by Gloves of Dueling since it makes no mention of Weapon Training whatsoever.
You are contradicting yourself. You did say they were the same thing (same source). And your position is inherently self-contradictory. You say it is the same source, then say its not WT because it doesn't reference WT.
It can't be both.
And who cares that it is an "ability that increases capability to hit and damage based on level." So is Rage, Smite, and Favored Enemy. They all stack with WT.
The FAQ I cited is relevant in that they are both abilities that work in the same exact way, and don't stack, with Channel Energy being an example of such. Because they come from the same source(/class feature that is being replaced), they do not stack.
No, the FAQ state that two sources of the same ability don't stack. So, in order for it to apply, you have to be arguing that Strong Swing and Weapon Training are the same ability. Which you just said your weren't. After you said they were. After you said they weren't.
Its simple. Either Strong Swing is the same as Weapon Training, and they don't stack; or Strong Swing isn't the same as Weapon Training and they do stack.
Since it is an ability with a different name that doesn't reference WT in any way, Strong Swing is not WT. Even if it is similar.
And since currently you do get WT at 9th level, you can have both and stack them.
Possibly will be changed in errata but not until then.
I think they stack, and after so long, if this were not the case, they would have already issued errata.
Fact is, unlike Mobile Fighter and other archetypes, Strong Swing only works when wielding a Falcata and a Buckler. That's pretty dang specific. That's why they also get Weapon Training. That way, they get something for being limited to two specific weapons, and can also have some ability with others if they so choose.
There are several abilities that add to hit and damage that require just as equal levels of specifics as the ability in question; in fact, I cited a few of them. Weapon Training itself requires you to be able to use weapons in a specific group to receive their benefits, Weapon Master only works with a single weapon, etc. The ability isn't any more special than any other ability that Weapon Training is replaced with.
@ Samasboy1: It's difficult to draw the line right down the middle to clarify things with so many jagged edges interfering.
The intent I argue is that both abilities have the same source of bonus (a class feature that makes you more effective at swinging a specific type or group of weapon[s], both of which are interchangable via Archetypes); bonuses from the same source don't stack. By this logic, a player could cast the Divine Favor and Divine Power spells and its effects would stack. But they don't, as they're basically the same thing, except one is better.
In addition, the payload from the Strong Swing to only subtract 1 rank of weapon training doesn't compensate enough for it to be an equal trade, something which the Archetypes are supposed to represent, hence my other explanation for it to be an obvious typo.
I think they stack, and after so long, if this were not the case, they would have already issued errata.
Fact is, unlike Mobile Fighter and other archetypes, Strong Swing only works when wielding a Falcata and a Buckler. That's pretty dang specific. That's why they also get Weapon Training. That way, they get something for being limited to two specific weapons, and can also have some ability with others if they so choose.
There are several abilities that add to hit and damage that require just as equal levels of specifics as the ability in question; in fact, I cited a few of them. Weapon Training itself requires you to be able to use weapons in a specific group to receive their benefits, Weapon Master only works with a single weapon, etc. The ability isn't any more special than any other ability that Weapon Training is replaced with.
@ Samasboy1: It's difficult to draw the line right down the middle to clarify things with so many jagged edges interfering.
The intent I argue is that both abilities have the same source of bonus (a class feature that makes you more effective at swinging a specific type or group of weapon[s], both of which are interchangable via Archetypes); bonuses from the same source don't stack. By this logic, a player could cast the Divine Favor and Divine Power spells and its effects would stack. But they don't, as they're basically the same thing, except one is better.
In addition, the payload from the Strong Swing to only subtract 1 rank of weapon training doesn't compensate enough for it to be an equal trade, something which the Archetypes are supposed to represent, hence my other explanation for it to be an obvious typo.
They are not from the same source. They are two different abilities. They are 'untyped' bonuses. Untyped bonuses stack.
Divine Favor and Divine Power provide 'luck' bonuses. Luck bonuses do not stack.
To use your train of thought, a cleric couldn't get the benefit from Bless and Divine Favor, because both those spells are from the same class feature, 'Spells'.
And the rest of your argument is about class design... Why a class was designed the way it was isn't directly related to RAW. The class is in print, and until clarification is provided, the abilities in print are what the class has.
To argue otherwise is the equivalent to something like "Bards only get 6th level spells, so all casters should only get 6th level spells. That is the design intent, surely. So no spells exist above 6th level, because they must simply be misprints in the book".
@ Samasboy1: It's difficult to draw the line right down the middle to clarify things with so many jagged edges interfering.The intent I argue is that both abilities have the same source of bonus (a class feature that makes you more effective at swinging a specific type or group of weapon[s], both of which are interchangable via Archetypes); bonuses from the same source don't stack. By this logic, a player could cast the Divine Favor and Divine Power spells and its effects would stack. But they don't, as they're basically the same thing, except one is better.
In addition, the payload from the Strong Swing to only subtract 1 rank of weapon training doesn't compensate enough for it to be an equal trade, something which the Archetypes are supposed to represent, hence my other explanation for it to be an obvious typo.
Your idea of "same source" doesn't match anything I see represented in the rules.
You seem intent on forcing this into what you think it should be, rather than discussing what it is. And that's cool, as long as that's how you present it.
@ Samasboy1: It's difficult to draw the line right down the middle to clarify things with so many jagged edges interfering.The intent I argue is that both abilities have the same source of bonus (a class feature that makes you more effective at swinging a specific type or group of weapon[s], both of which are interchangable via Archetypes); bonuses from the same source don't stack. By this logic, a player could cast the Divine Favor and Divine Power spells and its effects would stack. But they don't, as they're basically the same thing, except one is better.
In addition, the payload from the Strong Swing to only subtract 1 rank of weapon training doesn't compensate enough for it to be an equal trade, something which the Archetypes are supposed to represent, hence my other explanation for it to be an obvious typo.
Your idea of "same source" doesn't match anything I see represented in the rules.
You seem intent on forcing this into what you think it should be, rather than discussing what it is. And that's cool, as long as that's how you present it.
Ultimately, that's pretty much it. After all, it is the intent I argue, since Mucronis was able to clarify the RAW on the matter.
It's silly and imbalanced for a Fighter Archetype who specializes in a single weapon combination to give up less Weapon Training than a Fighter Archetype who receives the same level of bonuses in a similar weapon niche, especially considering that both effects are in essence the same thing, and are replacing the same feature.
In addition, we can take this sort of ruling to other Archetypes who give up Weapon Training 1 only (Tactician Archetype, for example), as well as any other abilities that work in the same manner (Tactician Archetype gives up Armor Training 3, but no other ranks of it).
It's silly and imbalanced for a Fighter Archetype who specializes in a single weapon combination to give up less Weapon Training than a Fighter Archetype who receives the same level of bonuses in a similar weapon niche, especially considering that both effects are in essence the same thing, and are replacing the same feature.In addition, we can take this sort of ruling to other Archetypes who give up Weapon Training 1 only (Tactician Archetype, for example), as well as any other abilities that work in the same manner (Tactician Archetype gives up Armor Training 3, but no other ranks of it).
It is also silly that dueling gloves don't work with the archetype replacement abilities. There are lots of silly things in this game.
The Tactician archetype replaces weapon training 1 for a wholly different ability (Tactician, for which he is named). But when a fighter would normally gain weapon training 2, the tactician gains weapon training 1. When a fighter would gain weapon training 3, the tactician gains weapon training 2.
Same thing with the armor training, when a fighter would normally gain armor training 4, the tactician gains armor training 3.
This is exactly the way it is written, and intended, to operate.
It is clearly broken. I mean, with gloves, comparing the buckler duelist vs standard fighter vs other archetype @20 breaks down like this
Buckler Guy: +9 attack and damage with Falcatta, +8 attack and damage with buckler
Standard Guy: +6 attack and damage with his first selected group, +5 with his second, +4 with his third, and +3 with his last.
Archetype Guy: +4 attack and damage within some very super narrow restricted weapon/situation
So, is the stacking from strong swing and weapon training too good? of course it is. Just about as "too good" as having an archetype get ripped off is "too bad".