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Quick question, wanted to double check this here.
I'm a level 20 cavalier and I've just hit the jackpot, confirming a crit with my lance during a charge. Spirited Charge and Supreme Charge both allow you to do triple damage... As does my crit. Since two doubles equals a triple I'm thinking this should be a total of 7 times die and base damage, correct? 3x + 3x = 5x, 5x + 3x = 7x... Right? So if my base damage was 1d8+ 48 +2d6 I'd be dealing 7d8+336+2d6, correct?
Does it matter? The guy's dead :)
Yes, if it's easier, don't think of x2 as double, think of it as +100%. x3 then is +200%, so you're adding +600%, for 700% total.
Level and challenge bonuses, too. +50 isn't all that hard to get at level 20. Although I bet he's using 2h PA numbers instead of 1h, like he should be. A lance isn't held in two hands.
==Aelryinth
A cavalier can chalenge, giving him extra damage equal to his level, there is 20 right there.
Actually between that, 20 BAB and at least 5-10 str bonus I am surprised it is so low.
Level and challenge bonuses, too. +50 isn't all that hard to get at level 20. Although I bet he's using 2h PA numbers instead of 1h, like he should be. A lance isn't held in two hands.
==Aelryinth
Nothing in the rules disallows using the lance two-handed in a mounted charge. You just get the option of one-handing it too.
I was going to post the FAQ, but thank you to the poster above me who has already done it.
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1d8 +48?
What static bonuses do you have to give +48? High Strength and two handed Power Attack can only get you so far right?
+20 for challenge bonus, +12 for Power Attack, +7 for STR bonus, +5 enhancement bonus from +5 Holy Lance, +4 from allies Inspire Courage.
I was actually hindering myself because I wasn't aware of the Power Attack ruling, so it should have been 1d8+54+2d6.We didn't have the bard when we first started the game, so I had spread my stats out to be able to serve as party face and tank, so my STR was a little low for a 20th level melee character.
LOL...
I think if spells have max damage everyone should have max Damage... I mean heck I can make a rogue do like
120D6+ 480... That still its like COME ON...
I'm betting that is totaling each hit and adding them together. This cavalier actually did 1 hit.
1 hit > 8 hits assuming they all actually hit.
he I am just talking numbers not details... It is very possible to hit all those easily.
I disagree that it is "easy", but won't argue it here.
Also, there's the matter of ths FAQ entry:
Power Attack: If I am using a two-handed weapon with one hand (such as a lance while mounted), do still I get the +50% damage for using a two-handed weapon?
Yes.
That's...an interesting ruling.
So if you're using a size Small Greatsword in 1 H, you get the +50% damage from Str and PA, too? -2 to hit for like +6 damage is awesome.
They're interpreting the rules as 'wielding a 2h weapon' instead of 'wielding a weapon 2 handed.'
I believe that is not a consistent ruling. Is there more to it then that? Because the mechanics of using a 1 Handed weapon in 2 hands giving you the bonus argues against this ruling that you've posted.
Or does this only apply to PA and not to Strength? Regardless, it's not consistent with other rules in the game...unless an exception is being SPECIFICALLY made for the lance, which is cited as an example, but the ruling seems to include ALL 2h weapons. I can see the mounted lance being the singular exception to the rule (it would prevent the silliness of people trying to 2h a lance), but that's not what the ruling is explicitly saying.
==Aelryinth
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A Small two-handed weapon wielded by a Medium creature counts as a one-handed weapon. There are very, very few ways available in the rules to legally wield a two-handed weapon in only one hand, so it won't come up much. Officially, though, wielding a weapon in two hands or wielding a two-handed weapon are both ways to get increased damage.
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Just to clarify, that's not just for Power Attack. Reread the melee weapon rules:
One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
The rules as written state that a one-handed weapon wielded in two-hands deals 1.5xStr damage, as does a two-handed weapon regardless of how many hands are used to hold it. It isn't explicit on that last point because it's assumed that a character just can't wield a two-handed weapon one-handed, but if it can the rules don't penalize its damage.
Power Attack is similarly explicit, actually stating that you get 3x your penalty when attacking with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, a two-handed weapon, or a natural attack that deals 1.5xStr damage.
The "Two Hands are Required to use Effectively" would seem to contradict the ruling, with the emphasis on 'effectively'. If you wield a 2h weapon in 1h, it's not a 2h weapon anymore and you're not wielding it effectively there.
Mmmm. Well, if it ONLY applies to a Lance, I have no problem with it. I do have that problem if someone starts 1h'ing Greatswords and getting the full bonus.
==Aelryinth
Yar!
For an extra boost - if you are an Order of the Sword Cavalier - you get to add your mounts strength bonus to your own. So if your mount has a strength of 22, that's another static +6 to damage.
I sometimes think of a charging Cavalier with a Lance as the Melee version of Save of Die. At this point, your attack bonus during a charge is often high enough to hit pretty much anything except on a 1, and your single hit charge damage is so extreme it can take out almost anything. (It's even possible to one-shot the Tarrasque as an Order of the Sword Cavalier charging with a Lance if you can get your static damage high enough).
Just a little FYI. ^_^
~P
Yar.
I will posit that it is not clear that such an interpretation is true.
... When making such an attack, he can add his mount's Strength modifier to the damage roll, in addition to his own. ...
To me, that reads as "you still add your own strength damage to the attack as normal, but in addition to that, you also get to add your mounts strength modifier to the damage as an extra bonus.
Now, if it instead said "When figuring out how much bonus damage you inflict on such attacks based on your strength score, you may add your mounts strength score to your own.", then I'd totally agree with you. But instead, the ability says "...add his mount's Strength modifier to the damage roll". Which, again, to me, reads as a static/flat bonus rather than a "flexible-based-on-the-handedness-of-the-weapon-used-to-attack-with" bonus.
However, this may well be worth discussing further.
~P
how would this go with devestating strike along with the greater vital strike ?
why wouldn't you be able to charge on a mount and vital strike. It is not the character doing the charge, just the mount. leaving the character able to do his attack action.
You can't charge and vital strike with the same action, so the question is moot.
When you charge on a mount, you aren't charging, your mount is. Your attack gains the benefits of a charge, but is only a standard action. You still have your move action on top of that. So vital strike is a perfectly viable mounted warrior build. You just can't multiply it's damage with the lance or spirited charge or supreme charge.
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You can't charge and vital strike with the same action, so the question is moot.When you charge on a mount, you aren't charging, your mount is. Your attack gains the benefits of a charge, but is only a standard action. You still have your move action on top of that. So vital strike is a perfectly viable mounted warrior build. You just can't multiply it's damage with the lance or spirited charge or supreme charge.
Fair enough. However, it's unclear whether the mounted character GETS a standard action.
If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack.
A single melee attack is not the same as a standard action, and for the same reason that you can't use Vital Strike with an attack of opportunity, I don't believe a Vital Strike on a mounted charge is possible.
In any case, it's pretty clear to me that the developers don't want Vital Strike and the charge action mixing. If you would like to make a thread for an FAQ, I'd be happy to click it for you.
Fair enough. However, it's unclear whether the mounted character GETS a standard action.You can't charge and vital strike with the same action, so the question is moot.When you charge on a mount, you aren't charging, your mount is. Your attack gains the benefits of a charge, but is only a standard action. You still have your move action on top of that. So vital strike is a perfectly viable mounted warrior build. You just can't multiply it's damage with the lance or spirited charge or supreme charge.
Did the mounted character spend his standard action? No. Therefore, he can use his standard action to make a melee attack, and/or vital strike.
You also convieniently left out the next sentence.
If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack. Even at your mount's full speed, you don't take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.
They are saying, you can't take a full-attack when your mount moves more than 5 feet. You can only get a single attack. You still have to spend your standard action to get the attack. Or you could spend you standard action to do anything else you can normally do with a standard action (such as vital strike, or cast a spell).
Even more telling, is you CAN make a full-attack with a ranged weapon from a mount, even if your mount charges. The ranged attack takes place midway in the mounts movement, then the mount completes its charge and gets an attack.
Not intending to muddy the water here, but with mounted skirmisher, you can make a full attack, even if you don't charge.
I'm just saying it's not clear. If it's not clear, expect table variance from GM to GM. If a character can't use Vital Strike when charging, I find it hard to believe that a character is meant to be able to Vital Strike just because his mount is the one making the charge action.
To show why this is incorrect, I will change vital strike with standard action attack, and charge with 2 move actions. Something we can all agree a normal character can't do.
If a character can't make a standard action attack when using 2 move actions in a round, I find it hard to believe that a character is meant to be able to standard action attack just because his mount is the one making the 2 move actions in a round.
Spirited charge: Did you use a charge action? It applies.
Supreme charge: Did you use a charge action? It applies.
Same way rapid shot and many shot both apply to a full-round attack from a bow. Spirited and supreme only require you used a charge action. If that is fulfilled, they both should apply.
The gendarme seems like the ability was written badly.
Normal 20th level Cav:
20th level Gendarme:
So cav does 2x normal damage(3x with lance), or 3x normal/4x lance with spirited charge.
The gendarme does... 3x normal or 4x lance, but that includes spirited charge. Its the same amount.
I'm just saying it's not clear. If it's not clear, expect table variance from GM to GM. If a character can't use Vital Strike when charging, I find it hard to believe that a character is meant to be able to Vital Strike just because his mount is the one making the charge action.
It's very clear. Your mount charges, you retain your full action economy, but are denied a full melee attack action. You can full attack with a ranged weapon, cast a full round spell, use a move action AND a standard action.
A standard action like attack (melee). That action happens to gain the benefits of a charge. But it's still just a standard action. And that standard action permits using vital strike.
Your DM may say no, but they either don't understand the rules or want to nerf melee fighters, which is silly.
Actually the original cavalier's ability is written badly. The Gendarme clarifies what happens when the Gendarme with spirited charge AND the level 20 ability charges, the standard Cav doesn't. It seems like you're following the same logic people used to justify the 2 handed fighter archetype using overhand chop getting double their strength bonus on top of already doing strength and a half with a 2 handed weapon, and that's just silly.Spirited charge: Did you use a charge action? It applies.
Supreme charge: Did you use a charge action? It applies.Same way rapid shot and many shot both apply to a full-round attack from a bow. Spirited and supreme only require you used a charge action. If that is fulfilled, they both should apply.
The gendarme seems like the ability was written badly.
Normal 20th level Cav: ** spoiler omitted **20th level Gendarme: ** spoiler omitted **
So cav does 2x normal damage(3x with lance), or 3x normal/4x lance with spirited charge.
The gendarme does... 3x normal or 4x lance, but that includes spirited charge. Its the same amount.
I never have though 2handed fighters got 1.5x plus 2x str damage on overhand chop.
Base 20th Cav: When mounted and doing a charge attack, get 2x dmg, or 3x with lance.Spirited Charge: When mounted and doing a charge attack, get 2x dmg, or 3x with lance.
Multiplying Damage: "Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.
Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied."
So, spirited charge, 2x, with lance (which doubles on mounted charge) 3x, with 20th cav ability, 4x.
For some reason, the 20th Gendarme ability is the exact same bonus as the 20th cav ability, an extra double of damage. Resulting in the same 4x (with lance & spirited charge). I think the intent was an additional double damage, which would make it 5x, but that is not what it says.
Yar!
I think some people may think that the " (or triple with a lance)" is already taking into account that lances normally do double already, thus doing the adding of multipliers for you already (thus making the inclusion of the lance exception kinda redundant). Lets call this interpretation A.
While others take it as it is written, a flat tripling on top of the lance's normal boost. Lets call this interpretation B.
Then there are those who mix the two, thinking that Spirited Charge replaced the lances normal doubling instead of adding to it, but the double (triple) from Supreme Charge adds. Lets call this interpretation C.
So if we have a 20th level Cavalier character on a mount, charging, using a lance, with Spirited Charge, and Supreme Charge, we have: "lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount" + "When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance)" + " whenever the cavalier makes a charge attack while mounted, he deals double the normal amount of damage (or triple if using a lance)".
By interpretation A: The (triple) is a redundant clarification, so x2 + x2 + x2 = x4
By interpretation B: It all adds and lances use the triple instead of the double, so x2 + x3 + x3 = x6
By interpretation C: One replaces but the other adds, so x2 becomes x3 then + x3 = x5
Most people I've seen tend to lean towards C, but thinking about it, A or B actually make more sense (applying the same logic to all parts of the equation).
...hrm...
~P
Why do you people end up with x4 on a spirited supreme lance charge instead of x5?
Normally a x3 (spirited charge) and x3 (supreme charge) make it a x5.
I think that when the abilities state: "deals double the normal amount of damage (or triple if using a lance)" is reiterating that you get to do 2x damage with a weapon, or 3x with a lance. (The normal would be 1x with a weapon, or 2x with a lance). It is doubling the damage, and conveniently providing the doubled lance damage (as 3x) for you, so you don't mess up the multiple multipliers rule.
I think that when the abilities state: "deals double the normal amount of damage (or triple if using a lance)" is reiterating that you get to do 2x damage with a weapon, or 3x with a lance. (The normal would be 1x with a weapon, or 2x with a lance). It is doubling the damage, and conveniently providing the doubled lance damage (as 3x) for you, so you don't mess up the multiple multipliers rule.Why do you people end up with x4 on a spirited supreme lance charge instead of x5?
Normally a x3 (spirited charge) and x3 (supreme charge) make it a x5.
This.
Yar!
There seems to be different opinions on how these abilities actually stack. As such, I have created a new thread for FAQ purposes HERE.
The mention of the Gendarme archetype ability Transfixing Charge has inspired me to do there same thing (as it seems that, as written, it does exactly the same thing as Supreme Charge (other than the crit effects) but with different words)... HERE.
~P