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Sovereign Court

Hey, I'm just starting out and this spreadsheet is super helpful, but I noticed something and I don't think it is in your to do list. Some buildings, like Castles, have a negative effect on Unrest, but I don't see that getting applied? If I put in an event that generates Unrest, it doesn't look like that -4 is showing up. Am I doing something wrong?

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Hi, so I'm running a long running game with 6 characters (and a badass wolf companion) that has gotten into the high levels (16-17) and combat has become a slog and a chore. So I'm spicing things up by making encounters very non-traditional, to keep them interesting.

Currently, they are after a list of documents secure in a powerful devil's library. In order to get the documents they will need to unlock the shelf. Unlock consists of doing the right type of damage, depending on a symbol. So they see the symbol for bludgeoning, force and fire, and they do those damage types to the lock in the same round it to unlock it. Then somebody gets access to the document, reads it, and they move on to the next one.

What I want is for them to be underattack the whole time by a lot of minor, but still threatening enemies. Basically, I want them to have to think "Ok, we need 4 characters to hit it with damage, but we also need to clear some space, so all of us spend a round clearing the area around us to buy time for 4 of us to open the lock while only 3 of us are fending off the baddies." I don't mind them slowing down to discuss the strategy at the table, in fact I want that. There's enough role play in the group that even with them playing tactically, there will be tension and engagment.

So my question is, what should these waves of enemies be? I mean I can flavor them however I want, no problem there, but what makes an enemy threatening enough that you want to deal with it, but easy enough to take out quickly. I don't want this to turn into another slog against some tough enemy with a thousand hit points, but I also don't want it to be something they can just ignore. My gut says something like a ghoul, but with the save versus paralysis really cranked up so it's tough.

Any good ideas, suggestions?

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Within a single scene, I don't know that you can pull of Chekov's gun reliably. If you draw attention to something, the players almost always interact with it immediately.

Saldiven wrote:

I disagree with the Chekhov's Gun concept to a degree.

Such a "gun" does not have to "go off" (as Chekhov asserted) for it to be meaningful to the story. The presence of the "gun" might also serve the purpose of indirect characterization for an NPC, in RPG terms, for example.

[...]
Those kind of descriptions are far more immersive and entertaining that to say, "The guy you're meeting is a very wealthy, retired adventurer of pretty high level."

Yes, but if you go through all the trouble of describing the man as a wealthy, retired adventurer, shouldn't him being a wealthy, retired adventurer have a direct impact on the story? That's Chekov's gun. In this example, the gun isn't one of the guns, the gun is that the guy used to be a bad ass.

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I'm not sure why there is all this confusion about the name. Agoraphobia is a panic disorder where one is afraid of the environment, often due to its openness or crowdedness. I think it fits.

As for the monster itself, it's a neat play on a very common emotion in urban life, naming feeling alone and abandoned while surrounded by people. I like how its very nature stops it from being a standard "roll initiative, attack" encounter, instead requiring investigation and caution. Simply knowing this thing could be hidden in a crowd would make me a bit agoraphobic. Stylistically, it reminds me of something from the X-Files or Supernatural, a monster that continually feeds on the populace, yet it is not difficult for the populace to deny that it really exists.

Definitely one of my favorites and a vote.

Sovereign Court

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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Marc Radle wrote:
Remember when the thread was about the math at high levels breaking down?
Nope.

You should have been there man. It was a glorious sight to behold. The question was answered in a single post and that answer was rephrased and repeated a bunch of times. Those were the days man. Wish you'd been there.

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I love this image though.

"Lord Asmodeus, you know General Garnath, your old torture buddy?"

"Why yes. We go way back How is the old fiend?"

"Dead sir, Anzyr killed him."

"The old planar binding trick?"

"Yes Lord of Evil."

"Thats the fifth one this year. Oh well, nothing I can do, planar binding is pretty specific. Let bygones be bygones I always say."

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Anzyr wrote:
MYTHIC TOZ wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
*Citation needed.

You need a rule to have allies of the NPCs you've murdered come after you for revenge?

That's a very strange campaign to me.

When the spells says that only the creature will seek you out for revenge? Yes obviously? Do your Fireballs not require reflex saves?

The spell doesn't say that. It says it might seek out revenge. It does not say only or put any restriction on revenge.

The only result of this strategy is earning the wrath and ire of increasingly powerful outsiders who are unhappy with you constantly murdering their servants and friends.

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If summoning witif covorting with demons is illegal, as it is in parts of Golarion, can the local constabulary seek to arrest you for planar binding, even though the rules don't specifically say they can?

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Here's the issue with deities. The only concrete, tangible definition we have is that they are the source of divine magic. It says that in all the class descriptions, a cleric uses the power of her god, etc. Which means that killing a deity means all of the deities worshipers are cut off from power. If you kill a powerful being calling himself Nethys, but later on run into a cleric to Nethys who still casts divine spells and uses Nethys' holy symbol to do so, did you actually kill Nethys?

So, extrapolating from how divine magic works, that its source is something believed in by the caster (as opposed to Arcane magic, which is implied to come more directly form force of will), there are really only two scenarios. That a "god" is just a concept or metaphor, and a means of focusing one's faith, or that a god is actually manifest as a very powerful being.

If the first option is the case in your campaign, then the god only exists as a mental construct within the believers. In this instant, the divine magic comes from such strong faith in a deity or an ideal that the caster is able to alter reality to be more in accord with their beliefs. Losing your casting ability is not because a being deemed you unworthy, but because you feel such guilt over betraying your ideals that you no longer can make your faith manifest. There is nothing to stat out, the only way to fight that "god" is to get people to stop believing in it. This leads to the interesting question of whether it is really possible to stamp out an idea. You also should consider that some concepts are almost universal to intelligent beings, so the gods to this concept may be presented differently in different cultures, but still are the same source of power. So conflicts between different deities are just metaphors for society and development. Asmodeus and Iomedae working together to stop Ravagug is a lesson in the importance of order and civilization, no matter the flavor, overcoming pure, unadulterated chaos.

The other option is that a physical being actually exists that is the deity. This being could have stats. But lets think about what those stats would look like for a minute. This character is granting every cleric, paladin, oracle, etc, every class ability and spell slot that they have. I admit I don't have a complete knowledge of the rules, but is there any ability that grants an ally an extra spell slot? If so, a deity has that, only the range is infinite, the duration is infinite (D), the targets are all allies across all the planes, and the effect scales with the targets level. How long is that feat tree? How many levels must a character have to even begin doing that?

So yes, after a long quest to find Sarenrae, the cleric could find Britney Spears. But unless Britney Spears is the source of that cleric's abilities, that is not Sarenrae. Maybe its her avatar, though I think a lot of parties would call bs if you did that.

Here's the best part of it, though. It doesn't matter which one of these systems is "true". A well educated mage could very well argue with the cleric that the cleric's power comes from the same place as the mage's, just using his faith as a crutch to cast spells. Meanwhile, the cleric absolutely believes that Iomedae is actually out there watching over him. A wizard might also believe in the gods as physical beings, but recognize them as so powerful as to be incomprehensible.

And ultimately, that's why there are no official stat blocks in Pathfinder. Because whether they actually exist personified or not, they are beyond the numbers on the sheet. Its what makes them gods. Any system of quantifing them has to be homebrew, and I would argue will also come up short of their power.

After all that, here's what I'd do for your situation of wanting a stats block for a deity. Pick the highest CR outsider that is appropriate to the deity. You mentioned Cayden earlier, so I'll use him as an example. Cayden would probably be some kind of male Brijidine Azata. Then give that creature 20 levels of Cleric and 20 levels of an appropriate class. Cayden would be Rogue, Have that figure deal with the party. If they pull anything, that figure deals with them in an appropriate manner (Cayden would probably strip them naked and teleport them to the center of a busy city) and then explains that they are just an avatar of their god, because mortals are unable to survive in the awesome presence of the real deity. Then the avatar turns to whomever was stupid enough to start the first fight and burns the eyes out of his sockets by simply allowing more of the power to slip through (if you really need a stat, make it Fort save: 10 + HD + cha mod, somewhere in the 50s I should suspect) and disappears. Any attempt at healing this blindness needs to penetrate the avatar's SR (make it the same as the Fort save).

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Well yes, a home brew campaign can have any rules it wants. Very good. But this question wasn't about that. It was about finding stats blocks for deities, so the answer was that pathfinder does not have those and an explanation for why not.

To the OP. If you're building these stats blocks you need to take into account Clerics and Paladins. If their power is really granted to them by a deity, and that deity can revoke that power the instant a misuse is committed, what does that look like on a character sheet? The feat tree to give someone access to 9th level spells across all planes hasn't even been published yet.

And there's the problem with stating gods. Their power, as implied by class descriptions alone, is so far beyond anything in the rulebooks as to be incomprehensible. Someone wants to attack Cayden? Cayden has to allow it, has to become manifest, and then his response can be anything. 20th level spells? Sure. Don't know what that looks like but its more than twice as high as Wish.

The 3.0 rulebook is just silly but it gets close. Pelor rolls a 40 on every d20 roll, for instance.

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One of the coolest things I ever witnessed in gaming (and sadly was only peripherally involved in, I was another character in the group) was the 1-4th level conflict between our party's Paladin and Chaotic Neutral Rogue. It wasn't scripted, it wasn't part of the campaign, but it was going on. There was snark and bickering and generally things that derail a campaign, but it wasn't getting too bad.

We go to rescue some people kidnapped by a baddie and the short of it is we get caught out of position and things go bad. We're tactically retreating and most of the party can just sprint out the door and get away. The Paladin has taken a beating, but one of the baddies has a clear charge on the Rogue and instead of running away, the Paladin blocks that line, takes the charge, and a crit, and dies. The Rogue gets away.

The next day, the CN Rogue who just didn't get paid because the job got blown announces we're going back and saving the people whether we get paid or not. By level 6 or 7 he was NG and gave a percentage of our party gold to the Paladin's order as thanks. It was great emergent story telling, causing all sorts of new themes to develop. It wasn't planned, it just happened and the player role played well because he had a cooperative GM.

It was, in short, beautiful, fun, engrossing and exactly the kind of thing that your style of GMing denies the players. The player doesn't care any more or any less about the Ruins if he's a mage or a barbarian, you just trick yourself into thinking somehow this character makes it more meaningful. You worry you wasted money if the adventure doesn't go exactly as planned, I say you definitely wasted money if your players don't enjoy it and you deny them the chance to develop in conjunction with the story, not in lock step with it.

It's what makes table top unique, computer games can't match the interaction between players and world. How the player adapts to situations and how the situations and story adapts to the players. Its unique and the appeal of gaming.

Tell me, if your wizard misses a knowledge arcana check in the Ruins, do you tell him anyway because its thematically better? If not, what difference does it make between that and not making the roll in the first place? If so, why even have players, because their actions obviously don't matter.

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I'm pretty sure the unarmed attack would trigger another AoO if you have combat reflexes. Its two actions, whatever triggered the AoO in the first place and then an unarmed attack. Since Vicious Stomp and Greater Trip give you two AoOs this definitely would. For that reason, I think you can abort your attack if you lose your weapon.

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Maybe I'm just a mean GM, but my players consider a surprise encounter where they all get away a victory. I think identifying target threat level is a key element of gaming and players should not rely on the GM to keep things fair. As a GM you should punish stupidity.

What I mean is if a 4th level party comes across an Elder Dragon, you should allow them to get away, especially if they are creative about it. (I once had a party member who took very thorough notes, and when threatened by an obviously out of their league Green Dragon, offered up a perfect Emerald they had gotten from a randomly generated loot table. A good diplomacy roll and everyone walked away). But if they attack it, after you're clear that it's a giant dragon, I mean really really big, then you have every right to wipe them out with a single breath.

But you should secretly be fair. Like you were. You set up an unknown encounter that was not too difficult, but left it open as to what was really going on. That's actually pretty good GMing in my book. The room could have had 100 stalkers in it, and the players weren't sure if it did. That's great.

Any or every NPC you can pass on the street in town could be a Balor under Alter Self. As a GM, you could never really do this without your party (justifiably) leaving you forever. But a great GM makes sure the players are aware of that possibility. If you can plant that seed of doubt in the party's mind, that maybe this one time, that guy is 15 levels above us and going to kick our ass, it makes a much better play experience in my book.

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Ohh, I like that. And then we have a very strange combat where things like Smite and half of the spell list don't enter into the equation.

This party is really anti-demon focused right down to the Ranger's favored enemy. Having a lawful good enemy is going to really force them to think outside the box.

Seems like a very obvious solution in retrospect, thanks.

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So I'm looking for some advice on an encounter idea I have. The party is fairly high level and really well equipped. For months now (both real time and game time), they have been outsmarted by a Succubus. This Succubus has some levels and has been using her natural abilities and spells to really be a pain, but never engage. The highest point was when she played the victim, fooled the cleric, got him to give out some important information, drained a few levels (wink wink, nudge nudge), and then teleported away. In encounters since then, the Cleric and Succubus have had some really good dialogue. (By good, I mean awful 80s sword and sorcery style dialogue. She always calls him "Lover" now. The Cleric is a good sport and great player, and he's sort of adopted the attitude of "So I have this crazy ex who just can't let it go".)

Anyways, they're about to track her down to her lair and they're ready to throw everything they have at her. Now I was thinking of having the big surprise be her "new boyfriend", a charmed or whatever Planetar who fights to protect her. I think it'll be an interesting switch up for a good party that has done a lot of demon hunting.

So I'm looking for some ideas of how I should make that happen. The Angel has just fallen? If so, should I switch everything over, so it's alignment is evil now, it has DR/Good, etc? If so, that doesn't seem too different from the standard evil stuff they fight. Should I make him under some spell? What spell or effect should it be? That seems to work fine until somebody in the party goes "this doesn't seem right, dispell magic" and now my boss fight has gone from a challenge to "well, we have a pissed off Planetar on our side for free now". That'll happen about a round in, maybe 2, considering how smart this party plays.

Just looking for some suggestions or how other people would run this. I'm totally not opposed to just saying "this is a special bad guy, not straight from the bestiary" and having all sorts of weird stats on him.

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Except that charm person isn't a roofie. At worst, it's the magic equivalent of alcohol. After using Charm Person, you'd still need to seduce the person. It'd be easier, sure, but it wouldn't be any harder than trying to seduce someone after a 3rd or 4th date. There is no compulsion element to Charm Person.

Now, is using Charm Person to sleep with somebody slimey? Yes, very. But it's no different from a pickup artist.

There is a big difference between Charm Person and Suggestion, which is pretty much a magical roofie. And that would be a spell that I think a lot of people are suspicious and wary of.

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mcbobbo wrote:

I do think there's a cognitive problem with this spell that typifies a "fantasy" problem - is magic normal?

If Charm Person is a normal part of life, then people will recognize it more frequently and will have already formed opinions about it. They will have seen it used on friends and loved ones and will likely not consider it a nice thing to do. At a society level there are likely laws dealing with its use, etc.

Where the setting is more like dark ages Europe with magic bolted on, then they might be quick to dismiss it.

In Gorlion, it seems they know what it is when they see it.

Why would anybody really care about charm person, or even laws about it? As the spell is written, it just makes the person friendly with you. It does not enable you to do anything a good diplomacy check or buying the person a drink and making friends with them wouldn't let you do. You can make opposed charisma checks to give someone orders normally. You can make diplomacy checks to make someone like you nonmagically. The spell wouldn't work on somebody who already considers you a friend, because then it would be redundant.

All the spell does is skip the time and effort needed to make a friend. But as soon as you abuse that friendship, the spell ends.

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255. The party is taking shelter in a barn during a terrible storm. An incredibly beautiful woman pounds on the door and asks for shelter. She's otherworldly, stress that. Maybe she's a nymph or maybe she's a succubus.

256. The party is awoken by a flock of penguins (or other completely geographically inappropriate animal). Hilarity ensues.

257. Gnome flash mob.

258. Water elemental decides it doesn't like someone, rains on their bed roll all night. If the person tries to move, it follows them.

259. Three halflings show up, really hungry. Will eat all food the party has unless driven off.

260. Party members sleeping on the ground can hear digging.

261. A dire skunk is minding its own business. (By far the worst thing you can encounter is a dire skunk).

262. Everybody wakes up in a different bed roll. Two random party members have a new magic ring or amulet.

263. Party camps on the former site of a fancy mansion, though there is no sign of the building until the invisible servant butler starts asking for drink orders.

264. Three raccoons sit at the edge of camp, watching everything. They never move when being looked at, but they keep appearing in different places.

265. Half the party sees orcs through the tress, the other half thinks they're seeing things.

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I'm confused. Are the players "Evil" alignment? In which case they are acting in character. Or is it a Cleric of Torag or some other good god torturing children?

Because if they are not evilly aligned, they are now. The Cleric's god should forsake him, his church wants to kill him before he embarrasses them more, and that's just the one character.

Actions have consequences, and that's what makes role play fun.

If they are evil to begin with and playing in character, that lets you do so much. It's not often a GM gets to use things like Solar and Paladins in combat against the party. Smite them for their sins. Especially if the world is civilized and settled.

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Ravingdork wrote:


I don't know about unintelligent, but I do worry he feels entitled. I'm an extremely generous GM for the most part and I fear I've spoiled him and the others. He also has a history of rages. This is not the first thread involving him, and this is also not the first time he's rage quit IN THIS CAMPAIGN.

For all I know, he's just lying to get a rise out of me again. He's done that before too.

That swayed me. Usually, my gut is to say that the GM is at least partially at fault. Rules should have been explained better, the process should have been more open, etc. In my experience, most conflict in gaming stems from not understanding the rules/inconsistency in applying the rules.

However, if he does this a lot, then let him leave. I've played with people like this and GMed for people like this. He frustrates you, he's frustrating the rest of the group, and he's turning what's supposed to be a fun activity into a source of stress. If he's rage quit this campaign several times, tell him to get out. He obviously isn't serious about leaving or he would have left already. Either he starts to behave or he leaves, you win either way.

Gaming should be fun. Drama should stay on the table.

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Just be careful. If you pick a monster based on trying to hit the fighter, with his high AC, you're going to crush everyone else. The fighter built for high AC, his reward should be that baddies have a hard time hitting him.

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This will come with time and experience. I still struggle with it and I've been running games for over a decade. I know that's a non-answer, so let me give you two alternate pieces of advice.

1. Remember that an "average" encounter should not be that tough. It's tough, as a GM, to let the party have fun being powerful while you feel impotent because they are having an easy time with an encounter, but the party should. Unless the party is trapped or stupid, they shouldn't pick fights that are impossible. And a good GM will make sure that there are signs for how difficult the fight is, so the party is stupid for picking it, not ignorant. And when it comes to a challenging encounter, which should be rare, but not unheard of, make them realize they are fighting for their lives now. I read somewhere once that GMs make the mistake of thinking the XP and the loot is the reward for the hard work of doing the fight, and that's wrong. Your players think the fight is the candy. The loot and XP allows them to do cooler things in the next fight, but they're having fun by fighting.

2. Have combats where killing everything isn't an option. Protecting a VIP, forcing the fighter to bull rush assassins away from him, for instance. A rare item that has a 6 round casting time, so the rest of the party has to protect the inquisitor while he charges the item. As soon as you throw in alternate objectives, the challenge changes from fights for survival (which isn't always fun and is rough for both you and players) to creative ways to use the combat mechanics to accomplish objectives. Now it's a lot more challenging without increasing the risk too much. And this ties back to the end of my first point. The fight isn't a punishment or a job to get to the loot, instead, the punishment is failure to accomplish an objective. Which often can sting more than losing a character.

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Yes, the math is right. And I don't think the damage is that ridiculous for a 20th level character. If it were an evil dragon and you were a paladin, you'd have +40 just from your levels, not including the rest of the smite bonuses.

A 20th level character is a basically a demigod. Nobody in the real world has ever come close to a 20th level D&D/Pathfinder character. I would even argue that few mythological figures are close to that. They should be killing most things with little trouble.

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I'd look for some sneak attack damage from classes to get more damage on a flank. And then, start building for crits? Improved critical, etc. so that you can up your critical chance and then have all kinds of extra abilities on that crit.

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I'm with DM_Blake. Talk to the guy separately. Be reasonable and calm, no matter how he reacts, and let him know that you're open to finding an amicable solution this one time. And then find a solution you're both comfortable with, not just for this instance, for any future crafting checks.

Maybe come up with a quick wisdom roll DC for his witch follower. If she makes the roll, she's smart enough to say "That's beyond my abilities" and if she doesn't, she says "yeah, I think I can do that." But really, I'd just say that for most of this stuff, the crafter should have a fair idea and inform the PC of the risks.

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Yeah, Mark has some great ideas. To run with that, look at the spell Nightmare. Once a baddie knows about the party, they should have to make a will save for a good night's sleep. Constant nightmares and being fatigued or frighted (shaken? whatever the lowest is) are a good way to keep the suspense up. I'm a fan of making the numbers represent the game. If they are in a haunted house and have reason to be super jumpy, then use mechanics to reflect that. Tell them they're shaken.

Or, if you want to be really mean, straight up lie to them. Not in an unfair way. But tell them they have perception penalties they don't have. Then ask for a roll every now and then and cringe when they say something low. Consider a critical fail threshold for perception. Something has a stealth of 20. If they roll over 20 they see it, that's how the game works. If they roll under 20, they don't see it. But if you want to be mean and psychological and terrifying, if they roll under a 10, they think they see something move in the other corner of the room. They hear a wrapping on the window, but it turns out to be just a tree. A failed check no longer means you're blind or deaf, it now means you're jumping at shadows. That'll keep them on their toes.

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I like to break it down by the AC modifiers.

Let's make it really easy. The target has a AC 25, from 10 (normal ac) + 5 dex mod + 5 Armor + 3 shield and +2 ring of protection.

So, when describing what you hit, look at what they rolled. You need a minimum of 10 to have a chance of hitting, so if you hit under a 10, "You swing wildly and miss completely."

Next up is dodge, so if you hit a 10-14 "You swing and he deftly steps aside, causing you to miss."

Then, there's shield, in the 15-17 range "You swing and he isn't able to dodge out of the way, but knocks your blow aside with his shield"

I do magic next, though that could be where ever. So they hit a 18-19 "You swing, he tries to block with his shield, but you avoid it. However, you glance off of a the air around his body" (If they are higher level, I just say "magical protection" because by the time a fighter is 4th level or higher, he should have experienced that and know what it looks like).

Then armor, at 20-24. "Your blow connects, but his chainmail is tough and absorbs the damage."

At 25 or higher "You hit cleanly and feel your weapon dig into flesh. Your opponent grimaces in pain."

For a critical "You catch him in the neck/head/vitals and plunge the weapon in deep." Then you can add some variation for feats. Bleeding crit? "You sever an artery and see blood continue to flow from the wound at an alarming rate" Etc. Same for a sneak attack.

I just believe the numbers should reflect what's going on. People tend to associate 1 "Standard Action" with just doing one thing, but it has to be more than that. 6 seconds is a long time, especially in combat. People are moving in their 5 foot square, lining up distance, setting up shots and feints. Think, realistically, how much a person has to do in a grapple check. Move in, grab the guy, move to get himself in a superior position, and hold on. Combat is very dynamic and should be described as such. A single roll in Pathfinder can represent a whole sequence of actions. Don't be afraid to describe what makes sense, even if it's not what happened mechanically. A guy is going to bullrush with his shield, even if he's not shield bashing. It's how it looks.

Then, from there, let the dice guide your description. For instance, a character is fighting a big guy with a warhammer, who swings and misses, Describe it as something like "the brute swings his warhammer at you, putting all of his weight into the mighty blow. You leap back, out of the way at the last second." Then, when the PC attacks back, describe it from that place. If the PC misses "You're so rattled by the orge's strong attack barely missing, that you hesitate and your counter attack misses." If the PC hits: "Thrown off balance by his mighty blow, the brute leaves himself exposed, and you jump at the opportunity, slashing into his now exposed head." If the PC crits: "The Brute practically trips in the follow through of his swing, exposing his armpit for just a second. But a second is all you need, as you plunge your rapier deep into his chest, causing massive damage and the orge to scream in pain."

What's great about this method is you'll find the dice cooperate. I can't explain it, but when somebody rolls a 1, the person attacking them usually does quite well. If a person criticals, their opponent usually has an off round. Maybe it's just confirmation bias, but it makes for exciting combat.

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It says quite clearly in the rules "Alignment: Lawful good" under Paladin in the core rulebook.

I allow some leeway for Neutral Good and Chaotic Good gods, as in they follow the laws of their god, not the laws of the land, but a Paladin has to be Lawful Good.

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I absolutely agree. Charm person is no more than an instant "hey, let me buy you a drink." It makes the target friendly, but it doesn't do anything beyond that.

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thejeff wrote:
The problem I see with all of these examples is that they're all about the party trying to be criminals without anybody getting mad at them.

Yeah, I agree with this a hundred percent. The best use for Charm Person is with a neutral party that you aren't trying to screw over. If I could cast Charm Person, here's a few real world situations I'd use it in:

Air Plane Ticket Agent: They can bump you to first class if there is room, charm person basically means they'll look into it because you're nice. Doesn't guaranty you anything.
Fast food place: They make your order fresh instead of taking the burger and fries that has been under a heat lamp for an hour.
Car dealer: More inclined to not rip you off, though the dealer still is going to make a profit.

Basically, I think of it this way. I work in IT, which means if my friends have a problem, they ask me for help. If it's a small problem, I do it for free, though usually I'll get a few beers or whatever out of it. If it's something that really requires work and attention, I'll tell them this is going to take hours, not simply starting up a virus scan or whatever, and tell them to come in to work and I'll give them a discount rate, but I'm not spending my free time doing more work (and they understand, because it's my friends).

So Charm Person would mean a person walks in, and I give them that treatment, even though I don't know them. It doesn't mean I blindly go to their house and do free work for them for 1 hour/level.

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Ferious Thune wrote:
The description of alternate classes specifically states that you can't take rogue and ninja on the same character.

Thanks, I did not notice that before. That's useful information. Sad, but useful.

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Mortalis wrote:
bojac6 wrote:
The spell makes you friendly, not friends. The Guard would say "He seemed like a legitimate guard. He had the right equipment and knew your name. He said you sent him to relieve me."

Charm person provides you with no form of thought detection or illusionary capacity, so unless you actually knew the warden's name and had a guard uniform/armor, there's no reason he would say that. Especially after the spell has ended, he has no reason to lie for you.

Best case scenario in your example the Warden doesn't fire the guard, but then organizes a manhunt to catch the mysteriously friendly stranger.

That's exactly my point. Unless you have the uniform and know stuff, the spell doesn't make the guard do anything for you. Simply casting charm person doesn't work all by itself. The spell makes the guard "Friendly." Which is one step below "Helpful," and still a +10 to the DC of any request. If the guard has an Int of 8 or higher, he probably is going to be very suspicious of a sudden change of guards, impossibly so if you don't have the right uniform.

A prison guard wouldn't let a prison break happen if his wife of 20 years, whom he loves dearly and trusts implicitly, asked him to. Why would he do it because he suddenly feels friendly and helpful towards a stranger? Charm Person, at best, means the guard doesn't immediately report an attempt at coercing a guard to his boss, because you're a nice guy who obviously has made some bad decisions.

The spell doesn't make the target a slave or force them to do anything they wouldn't normally do. It means that you "treat the target's attitude as friendly".

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I'm hesitant about this, because I think building your own character up is where a lot of fun comes from. Being handed a pregen always was a disconnect to the character for me.

I don't think PCs need a built in character hook, they get involved because they get hired to do something, or it's the right thing to do, or whatever. Large sagas are accomplished by playing it out. I've had players role up a characters siblings or even child to take over when they retire their other character. As your players grow in the world, they become invested too.

So my advice would be to talk to each of them and have them make their own next characters. The player should decide how it's tied to the current character, be it a relative or whatever. They'll have a much stronger connection to their character and that means more emotional investment.

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Go with Elves and have it all tied to the Drow, as the Drow hate normal elves. They set it up or were integral to it. The Drow are supposed to be grimdark and nasty, not misunderstood. They routinely kill family members for advancement and live with demons. Make them properly evil.

Of course, that's Demons, not Daemon. I don't know that Daemons have any really associated mortal allies. My understanding has always been that Daemons trick other outsiders into evil towards mortals, but they hate life too much to work with them. But Demons would totally go with a genocide against a single race plan.

This adventure scales too, as you can easily have them facing Drow with PC levels, teams with Driders, and eventually up into higher Demons. You can adjust between heavy combat or heavy politics, as the Drow society is typically quite political, if you wanted to go Game of Thrones-y for some parts.

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Are wrote:

Hm. I was going to say you should take the "poison use" rogue talent, but apparently there isn't one, despite the fact that there are a number of other rogue talents that improve your ability to use poisons.

You could take a level of ninja, I suppose. They get poison use at 1st level. Oh, wait. That probably won't work in PFS either, since ninja is classified as an "alternate class".

Is it possible for you to recreate your rogue as a ninja?

Can you not multiclass with an "alternate class"? I mean, why couldn't he just take a level of ninja and then more of rogue?

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DM_Blake wrote:
Rory wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:

"Hey good buddy, the warden sent me, your best friend, to relieve you at your post so you can have a night home with your family".

The next day, when the warden is firing the prison guard for dereliction of duty and that ex-guard runs to his brother-in-law who leads a mercenary band and he hires the mercenaries to come after you, the guy who got him fired and ruined his life, it really won't matter whether you used your Bluff skill or not, or used a Charm Person spell or not - that guy and all his mercenaries will be coming after you because you coerced/tricked/forced him to do something he would never do.

With proper skill usage, this guard's "rage" will be directed at the warden and not the PC.

How do you figure?

Warden: Nice of you to show up. Where were you last night during the prison break?
Guard: What? What prison break?
Warden: Someone broke in and set a prisoner free. Where were you?
Guard: Home with my family.
Warden: What!?!?
Guard: Yeah, remember, you sent that new guy to relieve me?
Warden: I did NO SUCH THING!
Guard: He said you sent him so I could have the night off...
Warden: No, you idiot, I never sent anybody to relieve you! What kind of dipstick are you, anyway? Who was this guy?
Guard: He was my friend. At least, I, uh, think he was. Last night I was sure he was a really good friend, but today, I can't remember ever seeing him before last night.
Warden: A total stranger was your good friend? You didn't think that was strange?
Guard: Well, no, I didn't. He made a lot of sense and he was my good friend, so, I, uh, guess I believed him.
Warden: What a numbskull. If that guy was your "friend" them I am Aroden himself. Get out of my sight. You're fired. You'll never work in this town again. You're lucky I don't throw YOU in that prison for being so stupid!

Yeah, you're right, this guy is going to be pissed at the warden for firing him, but he's going to KNOW that his mysterious "friend" last night was the real...

The spell makes you friendly, not friends. The Guard would say "He seemed like a legitimate guard. He had the right equipment and knew your name. He said you sent him to relieve me."

Getting charmed doesn't make you an idiot and it doesn't make you do harmful things. I would argue that a prison guard would consider letting prisoners escape as "harmful." The guard is much more inclined to believe, but it takes more than a charm person spell to get him to leave his post. And that's what the guard remembers. The uniform, the papers, whatever. He's just less likely to question it further. He'd tell the Warden "Everything seemed legit, how was I supposed to know."

Now, the Warden could act like an idiot and berate the guard. Or he could conclude that there was a well planned heist and the sole witness is this guard.

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paladinguy wrote:

@Lincoln Hills,

it's not that they don't want to combat. They are fine with combat. I just feel like they fundamentally disagree with the entire Pathfinder combat system. They don't want to sit there and roll dice and cross their fingers hoping their rolls are better than the enemies. They don't want to have to calculate out squares for moving distance and attacks of opportunity.

Perhaps I simply need to convince them that the Pathfinder way is BETTER than the pure cinematic, roleplay way of doing combat. Otherwise, it isn't the right group or them. How can I convince them that PF combat is better than the combat they want to do?

I think this is a good solution. The way I'd go about this is pointing out that "hoping your dice rolls better than your enemies" isn't a good way to do it, both as players and as characters. I would never pick a fight where my strategy is "hope I win." Instead, they should come up with in game ways of gaining advantages in fights. Sure, this sword swing might miss, but if you've got a high ground advantage, or you lead them through traps, or you drug their food first, you tip the odds in your favor. Just like using a weapon you're proficient in means you'll do better in combat than picking up something you've never seen before. The numbers reflect the roleplay.

@Lincoln Hills: They want a tactical game, not pure random chance. I'm a big fan of heavy role play campaigns, but I think the dice add an important and fun dynamic that can't be achieved by players who think that everything bad that happens has to be meaningful.

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I think you all are being too literal and rigid as GMs. I like to think of a lot of spells not as big showy things, but simply ways of going beyond what is normal.

In my games, when the bard casts charm person, he doesn't stand in front of them, go "Abracadabra, now you like me." What he does is act charming, and the spell increases his effectiveness. For instance, the verbal component is as simple as a "hey, how are you" and the somatic component is a handshake. Unless there are surrounding people who are skilled in spell casting, they just think he's a charming dude.

So a typical usage would go like this. The town doesn't allow people to carry swords, for instance. As the party walks into town, a guard walks up and says "we're going to have to confiscate your weapons. They will be returned to you when you leave." The guard seems stern and serious. So the bard walks up and says "Hi, how are you" (hand shake) "I'm Lorentius and this are my companions. Look friend, you can trust us to be responsible with our weapons, and we'll even help you out if you need it. This saves you the hassle. What do you say?"

With Charm Person, the guard who would usually be very by the book and opposed to this, now views them as a friend, as per the spell. So instead of throwing this idea right out, he considers it. A decent diplomacy role leads to the party keeping their weapons. An outrageously good one leads to the guard deputizing them.

Hours later, when he's off duty, he has no reason to be less suspicious of them, so why would he hate them now? He probably waves to them. If the party is smart, they buy him a drink and now they have a contact.

The point is, charm person should not be viewed as a hostile act, it's just being super likable. You can't convince somebody to do something suicidal or harmful and you even have a rough time convincing somebody to do something out of the ordinary. It's a roleplay spell, not a hostile act.

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The two friends who want to "roleplay" don't sound like a good fit for Pathfinder. It's just not going to work. Part of roleplay is dealing with random chance and out of control situations. I think there are plenty of ways to make combat easier or harder by role play, but the dice are what make it exciting instead of predetermined.

Perhaps they'd rather write a story together?

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Set wrote:
Fromper wrote:
So is it just me, or is anyone else thinking that running an adventure like this for a group of neutral PCs would be even funnier?

Or evil ones, for whom these sorts of trials would be counter-intuitive.

"It said sacrifice! I've sacrificed three henchmen already, and it still won't open!"

"Mercy? What do you mean I wasn't supposed to coup de grace the fallen? We're being punished for being *effective* and using common sense?"

"It said it was a test of Justice. How much more do I need to bribe the magistrate?"

"Well, the solution to sacrifice is obvious. One of us must die. Grab the bard"

Anyways, there were distractions in the game and they didn't get into the tomb over the weekend. It happens, but they still seem intent on going there. For some reason, the Paladin insisted on helping troubled villagers before fulfilling her own quest. It's like she puts the needs of others before her own.

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Thanks all, your ideas have been a big help.

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I haven't completely caught up, but I do want to weigh in.

1. Don't treat her any differently than you would any other new player. My gaming group is an even split, genderwise, and everyone has fun. I don't cater to the women players anymore than the male ones.

2. Don't GM her first game. Have a friend do it and play with her. But don't be her first GM. You're not impartial. It's so easy for players, especially new ones, to interpret fairness as meanness in a GM. She has every right as a new player to ask for some help, guidance, and to ask the GM for some leeway. And if it were me with some random new player, I'd be nice for a bit until it was time for that new player to pick up the slack. If it's with a girlfriend (or worse yet, a crush that isn't yet your girlfriend) then it's so hard to keep things fair.

I'd have a friend run something that's fun and treat her like any new player.

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Weirdo wrote:
Scaevola77 wrote:
You can somewhat mirror the effects by having the party encounter enemies that test the limits of mercy (e.g. a puppy-kicking anti-paladin that they have encountered before), and have any lethal damage dealt be suffered by the damage dealer as well. Thus the more merciful the party is to their hated foe, the better they will weather the trial.
I like this. A 12th-level party should have at least one personal enemy they hate enough to make this work. And I do think that for this one to work best you have to present them all with a target that they really hate, someone they don't want to be merciful to.

I certainly have a few characters in mind, I just don't get how to set it up, really. Does the bad guy get teleported in or is he an illusion? It will take this party all of 5 seconds to conclude that this is a setup. They won't let him just kill off the party, but on the other hand, they'll be on their guard because it's a test and try to follow all of the established Pelor rules possible.

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mdt wrote:
Your implied weight was 1000 lbs. That not a lie, that's out and out disconnect from reality. :)

I thought the only implication to my weight was that I weigh 6 times more than a 40 lbs Gnome. Don't see where the 1000 lbs comes from.

As for the 20 lbs an eagle is carrying, you're right, I got confused. According to Wikipedia, 8.8lbs or so is the established "heavy load" for a golden eagle.

mdt wrote:


Which is handled by skill checks, but no matter how skillful you are, if you can't reach the wing 15 foot off the ground, because your 3.5 feet high, you shouldn't automatically grapple the wing, yes? It's a flaw in the system.

If you picture a grapple as just a step in grab, yes. But in my mind, this grapple check represents a flow of action that you would see in a movie. So the Wyvern snaps at the monk on it's action and the monk grapples back on his. I don't picture them standing still like Final Fantasy. What I picture is the Wyvern has to duck his head down to reach the monk, who tries to jump out of the way or let the teeth slide off his tough skin (Natural Armor). Then, the monk immediately (on his turn) grabs the Wyvern's head, flips up and attempts to grab onto a wing while the Wyvern tries to throw him off. If the Monk is successful, he's grabbed the wing in one action.

It's a monk in a fantasy game, he should fight like he's in a Kung Fu movie.

mdt wrote:


Bad example. I own 3 Maine Coons, the smallest of which is 16 lbs, all muscle (well, Callie is a bit on the pudgy side but she's mean). I routinely manhandle them into their carriers when they don't want to go. I get clawed up, but they go to the vet even when they don't want to, and I guarantee they are not happy about it and are experts at escapes. :) You can ask ToZ about them, he's seen them. :)

But that was exactly my point. A large cat can make putting itself into a carrier a problem for somebody 10 times it's weight. Yes, you're trying not to hurt it, but they still make life difficult. You'll win, but cats aren't wrestlers.

There are records for people pulling airplanes with their teeth, so I think a well positioned and well trained grappler could stop a 2000 lbs animal from flying just by getting in the way of a wing. Hell, I bet a 200 lbs guy could pretty much just hang on the trailing edge and the Wyvern would have tons of trouble taking off. Its reaction would be to get rid of the guy, not fly with him hanging there. And that's what winning the grapple check represents, getting into the good position.

Hell, you'll stop me from walking anywhere for a good 5 minutes if you drop a 5 pound hammer on my foot. I don't see why a strong guy landing on a similar weak point isn't going to ground anything that flies.

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While I do like the concept, I have no idea how many things they have killed throughout the campaign.

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The whole party is good aligned, but Lawful to Chaotic. The actually end up in a lot of philosophical arguments on that front, which is cool. Especially because our chaotic good rogue is played a guy who is definitely quite lawful, but our Paladin is played by a woman who is much more of a free spirit but they still have these arguments in character.

Pelor is most certainly not a destroy on sight type, unless it's undead. The core tenant of Pelor's philosophy is that by doing good works, evil will have no room to grow. So one should always take an opportunity to promote good and righteousness over an opportunity to destroy evil.

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Hmmm, yeah, these ideas for Mercy kind of work, but they don't thrill me and I don't think the players would enjoy them.

I don't mind putting the spotlight on one or the other players, but I feel like this adventure is already pretty Paladin centric, so if other players get a chance to shine, that'd be great.

We have a Cleric of Pelor, a combat oriented rogue, a druid, and a sorcerer, if that helps anyone.

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mdt wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
mdt wrote:
Can you picture an eagle flying away with a 4 pound rat hanging onto it's leg? :)

Depends. Is that 4 pounds ten percent of the eagles body weight? (Not to mention the wyvern's Medium Load is 117lbs.)

But you bring my point right to the fore. Nothing was done to see where the character had grabbed the wyvern. No check to take control of the grapple (move him from the wing to the claws), no checks allowed to contest the grapple. Just straight fiat without cause.

After you played out every damn roll from Hawkeye, I somehow doubt you'd do what this GM did.

Oh, absolutely. I wasn't defending the GM in question. I was just pointing out that the Wyvern was just as likely to be a leg grapple as a wing grapple (one of my pet peeves about the system is the lack of specificity on hits and grapples for situations like this).

Just to be pedantic though... A Wyvern weighs 2000 lbs on average, making a man 10% of his weight.

A golden eagle weighs from 7 - 13 lbs (Male) to 9 - 17 lbs (Female). A bald eagle weighs from 9 - 15 lbs (Male) to 12 - 20 lbs (Female).

So, 10% of their weight is 0.7 to 1.7 lbs for a golden eagle, or 0.9 to 2.0 lbs for a bald eagle.

So, the more appropriate situation would be an eagle taking off with a rat around their leg (Average US Rat weighs 0.88 to 1.5 lbs). :)

Yeah, not seeing an issue physics wise with it. Just needs to do the right rolls to make the grapple be it's leg or neck or whatever. :)

The issue is more than body weight percentage though. It's positioning. I can (and have) marched with a 100 lbs pack on. Hell, I've jogged with it. I wasn't happy, but it was possible. But if you strapped 100 lbs to my wrist, I'd be almost completely immobilized. If you put a 50 pound weight in my shoe, I probably couldn't move. And this isn't a pack, it's a person actively trying to stop me from moving. If a 40 lbs Gnome were trying to grapple me, I might be able to reverse the grapple and win, but there's no way I could ignore it and move normally, even though I'm 3 times his height and 6 times his weight. And if that Gnome has 10 monk levels and is a focused grappler? I'm totally at his mercy. My only hope against a guy like that is not letting him grab me.

Have you ever held a 10 cat that didn't want to be picked up and it's method of getting away was squirming onto your shoulders and jumping? That can easily make somebody stumble.

Similarly, an eagle can pick up 20 lbs, I don't really think that would be too tough. Or a Wyvern could fly off with a human in their claws. But they aren't picking it up and positioning in your scenario, they are being tackled and the monk is controlling the action. There's really no good reason a human monk couldn't force a Wyvern to the ground.

Frankly, this GM has control issues. He's railroading this campaign and he's forcing another campaign to his character concept. Take comfort in the fact that everyone else in his other game is saying "I'm so sick of that stupid witch. My next character is going to be a dwarf, just to piss him off."

Here's what I'd do. Stop playing with this guy. Find another group or get some friends together and start your own.

Edit: I lied about my implied weight :P

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Fromper wrote:
MrSin wrote:
I attack the wall non lethally! I don't want to hurt it or anything...
Good thing the rogue has an adamantine sap!

"You all laughed at me for spending 100000 gp on a +3 Merciful Warhammer. Well, I'm not helping till you apologize."

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Cool, thanks guys, I really like that idea for an entrance barrier.

Any ideas for a test of Mercy?

Strength 19
Dexterity 13
Constitution 14
Intelligence 8
Wisdom 12
Charisma 14

About Hskaja

Hskaja
Nagaji samurai (brawling blademaster) 3/Champion 1 (Pathfinder Player Companion: Martial Arts Handbook 10, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 4 199, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 18)
Medium humanoid (reptilian)
Alignment: Chaotic (23) Good (72)
Hero Points 1
Init +1; Senses low-light vision; Perception +6
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 17, touch 12, flat-footed 15 (+4 armor, +1 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 natural)
hp 35 (3d10+13)
Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +3; +2 vs. mind-affecting effects and poison
Defensive Abilities hard to kill, nimble +1, resolve 2/day, self reliant
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 60 ft.
Melee chakram +6 (1d8+4) or
. . chakram +6 (1d8+4) or
. . chakram +6 (1d8+4) or
. . chakram +6 (1d8+4) or
. . chakram +6 (1d8+4) or
. . mwk katana +6 (1d8+4/18-20) or
. . mwk light flail +8 (1d8+4) or
. . unarmed strike +5 (1d6+2)
Special Attacks challenge 1/day (+3 damage, +1 to hit and AC when challenge challenger), champion's strike (fleet charge), mythic power (5/day, surge +1d6)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 19, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 14
Base Atk +3; CMB +7; CMD 19
Feats Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack[M], Two-weapon Fighting, Unconquerable Resolve
Traits axe to grind, indomitable faith
Skills Acrobatics -1 (+11 to jump), Bluff +6, Climb +6, Diplomacy +6, Handle Animal +6 (+8 vs. reptiles), Intimidate +6, Knowledge (nobility) +2, Perception +6, Profession (soldier) +6, Ride +3, Sense Motive +5, Swim +6; Racial Modifiers +2 Handle Animal racial bonus vs. reptiles, +2 Perception
Languages Common, Nagaji
SQ hero points, impossible speed[MA], resistant, ronin[UC], serpent's sense
Other Gear lamellar (leather) armor[UC], chakram[APG], chakram[APG], chakram[APG], chakram[APG], chakram[APG], mwk katana[UC], mwk light flail, backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, flint and steel, hemp rope (50 ft.), piton (5), pot, trail rations (10), waterskin (2), 263 gp, 6 sp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Animal Companion Link (Ex) Handle or push Animal Companion faster, +4 to checks vs. them.
Fleet Charge (Ex) As a swift action, use 1 power to move speed & attack (+1 bonus, bypass all DR).
Hard to Kill (Ex) Automatically stabilize when dying, and only die at neg Con x 2.
Hero Points Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Impossible Speed (+10 feet) (Ex) Spend 1 power to increase speed by 10 ft/tier for 1 hour.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Nimble +1 (Ex) +1 AC while wearing light or no armor.
Power Attack [Mythic] Use 1 power to eliminate attack penalties of Power attack for 1 min.
Resistant (Ex) +2 racial bonus to saves vs. mind-affecting effects and poison.
Resolve (2/day) (Ex) Your resolve can remove effects or reroll saves.
Ronin's Challenge +3 (1/day) (Ex) +3 to damage target, -2 AC vs. others when used, +1 attack/dodge AC vs. challenger when returning a challenge.
Self Reliant (Ex) At 2nd level, the ronin learns to rely solely on himself, even in the most difficult of times. Whenever the ronin fails a Will saving throw against an effect with a duration greater than 1 round, he can attempt another saving throw at the end of the
Serpent's Sense (Ex) +2 racial bonus on Handle Animal checks against reptiles.
Surge (1d6) (Su) Use 1 power to increase any d20 roll by the listed amount.
Unconquerable Resolve When use resolve, gain pool of temporary hp for 1 min (or 24 hrs).
--------------------
Weapon Trick
Double Slice
--------------------
Background
--------------------
This one is Hskaja. This one was lieutenant-ascendant prime, serving her highness Resavana Ssemti, although by the end of the world, Hskaja surely ranked much higher among those who last stood against Black Horizon. It wasn't really black, of course, but that was the name that was given to what Nagaji sages called the "collapsing universe." The Nagaji's first hint of demise was a four years ago when the stars began disappearing from the sky. With the demise of the constellations, travel across the oceans all but disappeared. By the time only the Nagaji sun remained, the diviners had learned that the end of the world was here.

Hskaja fought loyally. First against Resavana Ssemti's rivals as the world crumbled around them, then the empire's opportunists, then invaders from other planes, and then--at the last, all alone--Hskaja raised his sword against the Black Horizon himself. And then Hskaja was no more.

In that last moment, when the universe was at its last, when Hskaja was the last... there was no difference between us. Hsaja understood... everything. Every secret; every idea; every person who had lived before the Black Horizon. It lasted but an eye blink, but in that last moment Hskaja gives his final words. To who, Hskaja doesn't know.

But Hskaja is just Hskaja. Just a warrior who wouldn't die until the end. And the universe was still dying. Hskaja could not hold onto everything. His knowledge, his secrets, his sword.

And now Hskaja is dead. Wherever in the afterlife he is, it's cold... or is it? It's hard to tell.
--------------------
Description:
--------------------
Hskaja is tall with broad shoulders but a slim waist. He is well-muscled but moves with the grace of a trained warrior. His scales are mostly dark green, but he has a ridge of dark gray that runs up his spine and the back of his neck. His eyes are a golden orange.