Questions on the various classes


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I've already asked such things about spellcasters, but I feel the need to be a bit more general. There are quite a few things about a bunch of the classes that I just do not get.

And so, incoming pile of questions from Voyd!

General:

Were I to use the Eldritch Heritage feat to grab myself a familiar, what classes would that be useful for?

Besides the obvious magus, are there any base classes that can do both martial combat and spellcasting?

Why is Summon Monster so useless at lower levels? A full-round action is a long time, and you don't have the spell slots for a Quickened spell. The only saving grace is that the Summoner can do it as a standard action.

Spontaneous casters. Why? The only ones that have any obvious purpose are the summoner (who has the eidolon to make up for it) and the sorcerer (and then only because of bloodlines.) On all of the others, the absolutely tiny list of spells known seems incredibly restrictive.

These classes, I don't have any real questions for: Alchemist, summoner, fighter, barbarian, druid.

Bard:

I am never quite sure what the bard is about. They seem to be musical knowledge dispensers that happen to cast a few spells and provide buffs and debuffs. Is that all there is to them? Seems a little underwhelming, since virtually every other spellcaster also provides buffs and debuffs. Also, spontaneous caster.

Cavalier:

What is even the point of this class? Aside from the challenge, they just look like inferior fighters.

Cleric:

The cleric is one of those classes I didn't really bother to understand. All I know about them is the fact that they have Inflict/Cure whatever Wounds, Summon Monster and Miracle. Besides being a box of magical band-aids, what is the purpose of the cleric?

Gunslinger:

As much of a gun nerd as I am, I'm not sure what the grit accomplishes. Otherwise, I'd just grab a gun for any other character. Why have the gunslinger?

Inquisitor:

Much like the bard and cavalier, I fail to see this class's purpose, outside of roleplay. Why have it? And again, spontanous caster.

Magus:

Does the magus have any real use? It mainly seems like it's there to say "Okay, we blended magic and combat for you, as a base class. Happy?"

Monk:

From what I've heard, the monk has been nerfed into uselessness by the Pathfinder rules. How accurate is this assessment?

Oracle:

My questions for this one are pretty much the same as the Cleric's, just with the problem of being yet another spontaneous caster.

Ninja:

Another one that I'm not sure of the role. Is this supposed to just be a Charisma-based rogue?

Paladin:

What is the proper paladin? Lawful Stupid is one of the most common, but hardly pleasant.

Ranger:

The Ranger's class features just look to me like a mishmash of the druid and paladin. Why use this, aside from the favored enemy?

Rogue:

What's the Rogue's niche, besides skill monkey?

Samurai:

It's an alternate class for the cavalier, which of course means that it has the same gripe I had about them.

Sorcerer:

Are any of the bloodlines REALLY useful, besides the Arcane bloodline? Metamagic plus spontaneous casting, without the time penalty, is always welcome.

Witch:

It's... a nine-spell-level arcane caster. The hex is the only thing really differentiating it from the wizard, so what's it for?

Wizard:

The arcane bond. How does the familiar even help you, besides having a nifty roleplay pet? Why choose this over the bonded object? There doesn't seem to be anything besides the singular stat bonus for having one.

Also, arcane schools. Why? Having the opposition schools has a big enough penalty that I'd never consider specializing.

Yeah... questions. Get 'em while they're hot.


I will respond once I get home. I want to be through.


Well, I'll respond to a few of these. But there's really no answer to "I don't see the point of this class, except for to do X." You've answered your own question.

And there's also no answer to "they don't appeal to me." Not all classes will appeal to all players.

To answer a few of your specific questions:

Spontaneous caster - the benefit is you generally get more castings per day than an equivalent prepared caster. You lose versatility in that you only have the limited spell selection, but you gain it in that any spell you know can be used whenever (if you have an available spell slot). To use a specific example, if you have 2 3rd level spell slots, and as a wizard you memorize one dispel magic and one haste, you're stuck with them. But if you fight two wizards in a day, you might want dispel twice, or if you fight 2 big melee fights, 2 hastes will be better.

Cavalier - Don't underestimate the power of a full animal companion.

Ninja - stronger in combat than the Rogue, due to better weapon selection. You get Ki powers, such as turning yourself invisible as a swift action. You should be asking yourself what's the point of a Rogue when you can be a Ninja.

Gunslinger - well you start with a free gun, for one thing. Good luck affording one otherwise at 1st level. But the whole class is built around gun use - if you can't see why it's the best gun user, try reading the class.

But the real answer is, play them and find out! You can't ask other people to explain to you whether you do or don't like something.


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Why is Summon Monster so useless at lower levels? A full-round action is a long time, and you don't have the spell slots for a Quickened spell. The only saving grace is that the Summoner can do it as a standard action.

I can't tell you why, but you're right that they aren't very good spells at the lower levels. Duration is just way too short.

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Spontaneous casters. Why? The only ones that have any obvious purpose are the summoner (who has the eidolon to make up for it) and the sorcerer (and then only because of bloodlines.) On all of the others, the absolutely tiny list of spells known seems incredibly restrictive.

More spells per day, and more flexibility when using said spell slots. When a wizard is fresh it's easy to look at the variety of spells he has and say he eclipses the sorcerer, but when you're halfway through the day and he's expended a fair chunk of his spell slots, the sorcerer starts looking a lot better.

It's a different style of play, and it's perfectly cool if your preference is for prepared spellcasting. You have to be careful with your spell selections, but spontaneous casters can be awesome in their own right.

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What is even the point of this class? Aside from the challenge, they just look like inferior fighters.

They're for people who want to use a special mount. Very weak class for fighting indoors (since the mount is of limited value), but pretty good if combat takes place outside where the cavalier can show off his mount.

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Besides being a box of magical band-aids, what is the purpose of the cleric?

The Cleric is one of the most well-rounded classes in the game. His spell list is far more versatile than just healing; one of his huge advantages is that he automatically knows every spell he's capable of casting, giving him an enormous spell list. He's got good combat abilities on top of all that, and domain abilities and channel energy.

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As much of a gun nerd as I am, I'm not sure what the grit accomplishes. Otherwise, I'd just grab a gun for any other character. Why have the gunslinger?

Among other things, gun training; add your dexterity modifier to damage. Grit abilities aren't bad. Otherwise, you don't need to be a gunslinger to use a gun.

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Does the magus have any real use? It mainly seems like it's there to say "Okay, we blended magic and combat for you, as a base class. Happy?"

They're kings of damage spiking.

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Another one that I'm not sure of the role. Is this supposed to just be a Charisma-based rogue?

Yes, it's an alternate Rogue. Take your pick as to which of the two you like better.

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What's the Rogue's niche, besides skill monkey?

Sneak attacking, pretty much.

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Are any of the bloodlines REALLY useful, besides the Arcane bloodline? Metamagic plus spontaneous casting, without the time penalty, is always welcome.

Sure they are, but they're mostly for specific builds or different character directions. For a generalist spellcaster, arcane is the most well-rounded and powerful.

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Witch... The hex is the only thing really differentiating it from the wizard, so what's it for?

It has a very different spell list, including cure spells. Magus is to Eldritch Knight as Witch is to Mystic Theurge. It represents an arcane/divine hybrid without having to use a prestige class to do it.

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Why choose this over the bonded object? There doesn't seem to be anything besides the singular stat bonus for having one.

Familiars can be handy at times. Not so much in combat, but not all problems are solved by killing things. Bonded object is nice, but if you lose it you're in big trouble, while a dead familiar is just annoying.

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Also, arcane schools. Why? Having the opposition schools has a big enough penalty that I'd never consider specializing.

@_@

The extra spell slot at each level is such a massive benefit that there's no reason not to specialize. The downside is a lot worse on paper than it is in practice. A wizard just doesn't have enough spell slots to prepare every spell, and this means on any given day his versatility is limited by his number of spell slots. In effect, a specialist wizard is more versatile since he has more spell slots with which to prepare a wider variety of spells.


Interesting answers. I'm still not sure how the familiar is at all useful, though... all it does is grant a single bonus while it's within arm's reach.

Also, I lack answers to the questions regarding Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) and the bard.


Voyd211 wrote:

Interesting answers. I'm still not sure how the familiar is at all useful, though... all it does is grant a single bonus while it's within arm's reach.

The familiar uses chars skill, with own ability bonuses and size. So for example if stealth and perception is skilled, its a perfect scout.

Some familiars are capable of wielding items and therefore can use wands if use magic device is skilled (thats a use fo a rogue/ninja familiar - get improver familiar feat, give the thing a wand of invisibility and a wand fo summon monster 2 and it trails behind you to always summon flanking monsters for you, all the while being invisible.).

Voyd211 wrote:


and the bard.

Bard is in my eyes a lot better skill monkey than the rogue, especially with the new retraining rules (allows to make full use of the performance versatility), with all included he has some effective 10+int skills per level. He is the best buffer, as he is the only one, who can buff entire party with swift actions.

Bard is mostly a good class for people, who want to be able to contribute in all situations.


On familiars: They grant a +2 Perception Bonus from alertness when within arm's reach. This bonus can even increase to +4 when you have 10+ ranks in perception (which you probably should have at some point). That's about as good as having perception as a class skill, which most familiar-classes lack otherwise.

And other than roleplaying and practical applications as scout or to deliver touch spells, a familiar is basically a free feat, granting you +2 to a save, +3 to your favorite skill, a small AC bonus or even +4 initiative. The latter is huge for a wizard and still extremely useful for pretty much any other class.

Also note that the "within arm's reach" restriction only applies to the alertness feat. The other bonus is in effenct whenever your familiar is within one mile of you, so you'll practically never lose it.


Casters who can fight consist of the Bard, the Inquisitor, the Oracle, the Cleric, the aforementioned Magus, the Alchemist, and the Druid.

Eh spontaneous casting is great if you want to be smart about your spell choice one time then coast on those options for the rest of the game, prepared spell casting is superior if your DM is terrible and telegraphs every single encounter or if you have shorter work days where having 1 of every spell you need will be able to carry you through encounters.

I've always found the familiar as a result of eldritch heritage to be a waste unless it's there for a theme.

As an aside I can't imagine anyone who actually reads through the Bard entry with an inkling of knowledge of the rules being able to think they are anything short of great. Enough skills to push the Rogue out of his tiny niche, a great built in buff in the form of inspire, a spell list that has better buffs per capita/level than any other and a solid set of debuffs, the only place where bards are lacking is in the offensive spells/utility spells area and even then they have some options. And since the bard has so many group wide buffs he's perfectly good as a secondary frontliner or archer if he uses his feats wisely.


Ok, its late,but a level 20 bard has close to the best offensive spell available, about 50 save and stagger or die spell resistance free "spells" requiring a swift action and staying one round close to target. Only drawback is only once per target, but once is with one possible outcome obviously often enough.


Are you kidding? Read the class entries Voyd! No one gets as much out of guns for as little investment featwise as gunslingers. They get deeds that are insane and rely on... GRIT. Non gunslingers can only ever get one or two of then with an archetype and feat gunslingers get them all automatically as they reach the listed levels which if you took the time to more than skim over you would see.


Conundrum wrote:
Are you kidding? Read the class entries Voyd! No one gets as much out of guns for as little investment featwise as gunslingers. They get deeds that are insane and rely on... GRIT. Non gunslingers can only ever get one or two of then with an archetype and feat gunslingers get them all automatically as they reach the listed levels which if you took the time to more than skim over you would see.

The most insane aspect of RAW gunslinger is the pistolero pitol training missing the words "this replaces gun training", which would mean he could pick gun trainining in addtion to psitol training, which would meana pistolero would gain with targetting touch AC 2xDX+5+5d6 (from other pistolero ability) bonus damage on every single shot from his double pistol reloaded with free actions.


About trying them all...

Thing is, I don't want to spread out too much. I can't try every class; since I can only play for a few hours every two weeks.

Thus, if I don't understand how the class works from the get-go, I'm probably not going to play it.

I currently have two active characters in Pathfinder Society: My paladin and summoner, both half-elves, both 2nd level. I don't really know what class I would work best with, so I need to have some understanding of most of them.

The Summoner I know inside and out, but there are other classes I'd like to try, but I have no idea of their usefulness. Namely, the alchemist, the magus, the ninja and the gunslinger.


Here is a link to a list of the class guides. They not only tell you how to optimize the classes, but give some ideas about what each class can do and do well. Check them out.


I have questions. What is the purpose of this thread? Can you answer any of your question, even the obvious ones? How can you not have questions about the alchemist and summoner?


What? Why would you have to TRY them all? Read the classes thoroughly, ie. Do some homework, decide on a few classes and roll them up for use when you get a chance. Obviously, even after thorough examination, you'll still have some questions and I think many people would be happy to help at that point.


Ciaran Barnes wrote:
I have questions. What is the purpose of this thread? Can you answer any of your question, even the obvious ones? How can you not have questions about the alchemist and summoner?

The summoner, I know inside and out. Verre Midri's my main.

The alchemist seems relatively straightforward. You blow stuff up, you have the mutagen, you have discoveries, you have poison, and you have extracts. Nothing too complicated.


The alchemist is actually more difficult to design, because he has so many options and one cannot pick all. (e.g. if you check the disvoceries and count all for which the sentence "thats a good deal for 1 feat" is true, you get something like 25-30).


Hmm...

I'm currently looking at the inquisitor... Seems legit. This actually would fit my paladin more, but he's Lv2 and I don't feel like multiclassing.

Ah well. I wanted to make a tiefling character anyway.

(I think the core races are kinda boring)


Voyd211 wrote:
Besides the obvious magus, are there any base classes that can do both martial combat and spellcasting?

Only the majority of spellcasters. Only the Wizard and Sorcerer are crap at combat. All the others have the option of being decent or even very good at it.

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Why is Summon Monster so useless at lower levels? A full-round action is a long time, and you don't have the spell slots for a Quickened spell. The only saving grace is that the Summoner can do it as a standard action.

It's definitely slow, and it is indeed useless at level 1, but after a few more levels, it quickly becomes very, very useful. Some extra cannon fodder for 5 turns can be a big deal.

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Spontaneous casters. Why? The only ones that have any obvious purpose are the summoner (who has the eidolon to make up for it) and the sorcerer (and then only because of bloodlines.) On all of the others, the absolutely tiny list of spells known seems incredibly restrictive.

Spontaneous casting has the advantage that you'll never face the situation where you need a spell you know but haven't prepared. Or you need a prepared spell twice. A spontaneous caster doesn't have to worry about which spells to prepare.

And a Bard can get to know quite a big number of spells. He can't cast all of them on the same day, but for versatility, the Bard is great.

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I am never quite sure what the bard is about. They seem to be musical knowledge dispensers that happen to cast a few spells and provide buffs and debuffs. Is that all there is to them? Seems a little underwhelming, since virtually every other spellcaster also provides buffs and debuffs. Also, spontaneous caster.

A Bard can be anything you want. Mine is not a musician, but a politician. Words are his weapons. Inspire Courage is a pretty big deal. Dirge of Doom can be devastating. Bards are the ultimate buffers, good debuffers after level 8, and they grow into better skillmonkeys than rogues.

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The cleric is one of those classes I didn't really bother to understand. All I know about them is the fact that they have Inflict/Cure whatever Wounds, Summon Monster and Miracle. Besides being a box of magical band-aids, what is the purpose of the cleric?

Cast spells, fight, and they get a cool domain power. Not my favourite class because of their low skill points, but they're excellent at all the other aspects of the game.

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The Ranger's class features just look to me like a mishmash of the druid and paladin. Why use this, aside from the favored enemy?

The free combat feats that skip all prerequisites. You can have a melee oriented Ranger that for free also gets to be excellent with a bow. He also has a lot of skill points. And with the right archetype, he gets to our-rogue the rogue.

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What's the Rogue's niche, besides skill monkey?

Well, not skill monkey, because the Bard eventually does that better. There's trapfinding, but Rangers, Bards, and about half the other classes can be just as good at it with the right archetype. So I guess that leaves sneak attack. Rogue is pretty pointless in Pathfinder.

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The arcane bond. How does the familiar even help you, besides having a nifty roleplay pet? Why choose this over the bonded object? There doesn't seem to be anything besides the singular stat bonus for having one.

Take a look at Improved Familiar. That's where it gets good. Also take a look at the downsides of the bonded object. Familiar is a lot safer.

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Also, arcane schools. Why? Having the opposition schools has a big enough penalty that I'd never consider specializing.

Hardly. The advantage of specializing is significant. There are plenty of crappy schools that are easily ignored. And even if you want to prepare one opposition spell every level, you still break even in spell slots.


As for familiars: they can easily carry items, throw items, use wands (improved), and they give you bonuses to your skills/initiative. What is not to love about a dinosaur familiar that gives you +4 initiative and you can use to throw acid flasks at enemies :P


Wait, the Compie can throw things?


Monk
monks being nerfed presumes that 3,5 monk was good. PF monk is much better than 3,5 monk. Still really weak, but if you put a lot of effort it can be useful.
Ninja
Ninja role is to be a stealth fix on the rogue. Pun intended.
Cavalier
Cavaliers are the best mounted characters.
Paladin
Find the Dresden Files book series. Awesome books and one of the secondary characters is Michael Carpenter. Ask anyone that has read the series and they will confirm, Michael is how a paladin should be played.
Ranger
Rangers are the master hunters and wilderness explorers. They are also the most skilled of the full BAB classes, so if you want play an inteligent warrior, they are the best.
Magus
Blending arcane magic and fighting IS a real reason. It's a common concept in fiction that didn't work in game until we got him. And no, EK was not good enough to make the concept work.


VM mercenario wrote:
And no, EK was not good enough to make the concept work.

At least prior level 16/17.


In fairness , I'm not sure I understand the point of having a witch class either but that's really a topic for another thread going on right now.


The cavalier is the class that baffles me the most. Okay, it's a good mounted battler. How often are you going to have a mount in an indor or underground battle? That right there cuts the cavalier's usefulness by several orders of magnitude, since indoor and underground describes at least three-quarters of the combat you'll be in.

Also, the witch. I get that she can cure or inflict, and there are hexes to work with, but otherwise it seems like a bog-standard arcane caster.


Small cavalier=medium mount=able to use in dungeon. Medium can dismount and use mount as flank partner, living shield independent attacker and since large can squeeze 5' halls not unheard of.


Also there is the beast rider, which allows medium chars to have something useful as "mount" for example a large dire bat, which can get anywhere along and provides invisible detection.


No it doesn't, beast riders can't have flying mounts.


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So you are reading the material! Is there a reason you cannot draw your own conclusions?


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Call me cynical but I get the impression you want others to do all the heavy thinking for you here? Am I in error because if so I apologize. If not, I urge you to take the initiative pun intended.


I don't know what works unless I try it, and I play too infrequently to try everything.


Apologies in order, I have been there it's no fun.


I ask again, since I never got a definite answer: What classes can benefit from an Eldritch Heritage familiar, Improved or otherwise?


Any class that can benefit from Alertness and a few other goodies the Familiar provides. This is one that should become obvious just by reading what Familiars provide.

Spontaneous casting has the massive advantage of huge amounts of spells per day to make up for their limited list of spells known. If my Sorcerer needs to cast Fly 5 times in a day he doesn't have to prepare for that scenario, and will still have spell slots left over to cast Fireball or the like.

Clerics are versatile buffers, healers, and support all around. Oracles are to Clerics as Sorcerers are to Wizards, with the added bonus of some neat Mystery/Revelation abilities for added customization.

Cavaliers and Rogues are pretty useless. Monks are fun, but also struggle.

Gunslingers tend to have amazing Initiative scores and the amazing ability to add their Dex to damage, along with a bunch of other abilities. Just read it.

Bards are THE skill monkey, buffer, and Knowledge guy of the game. Inquisitors, like Bards, make good skill monkeys but they also can deal solid damage at a good to-hit by burning Bane or Judgement and can draw enemy attention and has a good amount of debuffs. Make good torturers and interrogators too, with spells that help in such matters and Intimidate and Sense Motive bonuses equal to half their level. Also amazing at identifying enemy weaknesses.


Here's a poser: How do martial classes benefit from familiars? It's not like they have touch spells to deliver, although an LN/LG/LE/N rogue with a Shikigami familiar could be interesting.


Voyd211 wrote:
Here's a poser: How do martial classes benefit from familiars? It's not like they have touch spells to deliver, although an LN/LG/LE/N rogue with a Shikigami familiar could be interesting.

Without even going into Animal Archive, a familiar still provides +2 Perception, +2 Sense Motive, and one of [+2 to one save category; +3 to one skill; +4 initiative], as well as being a small, possibly very stealthy scout, maybe even with senses beyond your own.


Voyd211 wrote:
Here's a poser: How do martial classes benefit from familiars? It's not like they have touch spells to deliver, although an LN/LG/LE/N rogue with a Shikigami familiar could be interesting.

As said above, specifically for the rogue, improved familiar feat could be gained and the familiar could with a wand of invisibility and a wand of summon monster 2 provide all the flanking the rogue ever needs with little risk for the familiar and little GP expense (at least at higher levels).

Liberty's Edge

Voyd211 wrote:
Were I to use the Eldritch Heritage feat to grab myself a familiar, what classes would that be useful for?

Not many. Familiars are okay, but usually not worth the Eldritch Heritage investment.

Voyd211 wrote:
Besides the obvious magus, are there any base classes that can do both martial combat and spellcasting?

Any and all, except Wizard and Witch, really. Even some varieties of Sorcerer are solid at it.

Voyd211 wrote:
Why is Summon Monster so useless at lower levels? A full-round action is a long time, and you don't have the spell slots for a Quickened spell. The only saving grace is that the Summoner can do it as a standard action.

Depends on what you mean by 'low level'. At level 3, summoning a Small Elemental or Giant Ant for three rounds is solid, especially if you have Augment Summoning. Before that, yeah, it's likely not worth it.

Voyd211 wrote:
Spontaneous casters. Why? The only ones that have any obvious purpose are the summoner (who has the eidolon to make up for it) and the sorcerer (and then only because of bloodlines.) On all of the others, the absolutely tiny list of spells known seems incredibly restrictive.

Well, one thing is that they're easier to play. You don't need to memorize every spell in the damn game, just the ones you in particular know.

And, as others say, on a functional level being able to use any spell slot on any spell you know is hella useful versatility-wise. A Wizard with a precise knowledge of what he's gonna face is damn near unbeatable, but one who figures on fighting other casters today might easily be screwed by something melee-oriented, or vice versa, a Sorcerer will not have this problem since he has the same (all-purpose) spell loadout every day. Many also have other cool things.

Voyd211 wrote:
Bard:

Bards are the best skill characters in the game. Period. Additionally, they aren't just good buffers they are ridiculous buffers, with Inspire Courage + Good Hope resulting in a +4 on all attacks and damage to the entire PC group at level 7 being just the beginning of what they can do. They can also serve as very solid backup healers and pretty good combatants to boot.

Voyd211 wrote:
Cleric:

Clerics are actually solid combatants, solid offensive casters, and just generally good at almost everything you'd care to name except skills. All on top of being some of the best healers in the game. What's not to like?

Voyd211 wrote:
Cavalier:

Well, yeah, if you leave aside the Challenge and the Mount, he's just a crappier Fighter. But Challenges are one of the biggest damage enhancers in the game, as are full-leveled Animal Companions. A Cavalier has both.

Voyd211 wrote:
Gunslinger:

They get to add Dex to damage at 5th level and get all the needed Gun feats for free. Full stop. Everything else is icing on the cake. Dex to damage is gonna at least double, possibly even triple damage output if you work it right.

Voyd211 wrote:
Inquisitor:

Inquisitors are great skill-monkey characters, and some of the better self-buffers available. Bane by itself is just great. But you seem to have realized a lot of this already.

Voyd211 wrote:
Magus:

Magi can burn their spells and 'nova' doing utterly ridiculous damage in a single fight or two, blowing away just about everyone else in damage output. They tend to run out of spells to do this quick and be mediocre the rest of the time, but they can easily nuke even main villains a fair portion of the time if they're willing to burn their spells on it.

Voyd211 wrote:
Monk:

Base monks are...a bit weak. Several Archetypes help somewhat, as do man Style Feats (a lot of which are very cool), though.

Voyd211 wrote:
Oracle:

Oracles are awesome. The various Mysteries let you do a lot of very different things with the class from buffing to blasting to melee combat, all well, all while still serving as a healer at need. You need to focus on one particular role of these, but you'll be awesome at it.

Voyd211 wrote:
Ninja:

Ninjas are like Rogues only better, mechanically speaking. At least in combat. Potentially a lot better. Greater Invisibility + Sneak Attack is a common high level tactic, for example.

Voyd211 wrote:
Paladin:

Roleplaying-wise? That's...really a matter for the particular group and GM. Being the nicest guy ever is my favorite way to do it personally.

Voyd211 wrote:
Ranger:

Rangers can do almost everything Fighters do and still be on par with Rogues for skills and, for a single Feat, have a built-in flanking buddy. That pretty much sums up what they do well.

Voyd211 wrote:
Rogue:

Sadly, while good skill-monkey and trapfinders par excellance, Ninjas really do mechanically obsolete Rogues almost completely. Which is sad.

Voyd211 wrote:
Samurai:

See above for Cavalier. Plus the Order of the Warrior stuff is great for not dying.

Voyd211 wrote:
Sorcerer:

+1 per die damage, element swapping at-will, permanent stat or Save DC bonuses...yeah, there are a lot of good Bloodline options out there, actually.

Voyd211 wrote:
Witch:

Hexes are almost brokenly good, since you can do them every turn. Check out Slumber for the most obvious of these, but many are equally good. It's like being a Wizard only any round you don't cast, you still get to either debuff or take an enemy anyway. Well, and your spell-list is a lot smaller. Also, you can heal, so that's cool.

Voyd211 wrote:
Wizard:

The singular bonus is cool, and other people have gone into why Familiars can be cool...but honestly, I've never been enthused. Still, nobody's making you take one. Grab the Bonded Object instead if you don't like 'em.


I am currently looking at the inquisitor's spells per day... I am not seeing the difference between prepared and spontaneous casters in that regard.

I'm making an LN tengu inquisitor for tonight's PFS, and his ability scores are as follows: STR 15, DEX 18, CON 8, INT 7, WIS 17, CHA 10, after racial modifiers. He only has two Lv1 spells a day, after the ability bonus is applied. At the moment, he knows Read Magic, Detect Magic, Daze, Light, CLW and True Strike.

Am I doing something wrong here?


He's a half-caster. The half-casters are a bit different. They have about the same amount of spells per day as their prepared counterparts (like Magus). Casting isn't really their focus, it's the melee/casting hybrid and their other special class features.

Compare, however, Wizard and Sorcerer.

1st level Wizard: One 1st level spell per day
1st level Sorcerer: Three 1st level spells per day

And remember, your Inquisitor can cast EITHER of his spells known twice, OR a mix of two of them.

Your Magus needs to plan ahead and figure out which spells he needs that day, and he still only gets 2.


People that say the cavalier is bad are forgetting something, a Cavalier does not NEED to be on his mount to fight. Also, his mount does not need the cavalier on top of it to fight. You can quite comfortably build a cavalier that uses his Mount to provide flanking, or for position relevant teamwork feats. There are also magic spells/items that make the fact that the mount is large a moot point when dungeon delving.

But even when dungeon delving, I haven't experienced many situations where a large sized creature couldn't move around.

Liberty's Edge

Rynjin wrote:

He's a half-caster. The half-casters are a bit different. They have about the same amount of spells per day as their prepared counterparts (like Magus). Casting isn't really their focus, it's the melee/casting hybrid and their other special class features.

Compare, however, Wizard and Sorcerer.

1st level Wizard: One 1st level spell per day
1st level Sorcerer: Three 1st level spells per day

And remember, your Inquisitor can cast EITHER of his spells known twice, OR a mix of two of them.

Your Magus needs to plan ahead and figure out which spells he needs that day, and he still only gets 2.

This.

And the only big thing wrong with your Tengu is Con 8. Con 10's okay for an archer (which I assume is your focus), but 8 is simply too low IMO, you should drop Str to 14 (or go Str 16, Dex 16 if you want to switch-hit) and raise it to 10. I'd personally also dump Chr instead of Int (and go Conversion Inquisition if you want social skills other than Intimidate), but that's down to personal preference as much as anything.

Spell-wise, Stabilize is a lifesaver (often literally) and I might go with it over Daze, and True Strike is a bit niche, so I might grab Bless or something instead, but your choices are pretty valid, too.


Most of these are great options, some are more situational than others. A good DM will tell you if a Cavalier or Ninja wouldn't work and usually just ban them because of that.

The only one I haven't found to be awesome and versatile (a cavalier can get down and walk and STILL do awesome stuff) is a straight bard, but the archetypes are very useful.


Jenn Taylor wrote:


The only one I haven't found to be awesome and versatile (a cavalier can get down and walk and STILL do awesome stuff) is a straight bard, but the archetypes are very useful.

Straight bard not versatile?

Not good maybe for some peoples taste, but not versatile?

Liberty's Edge

Jenn Taylor wrote:
The only one I haven't found to be awesome and versatile (a cavalier can get down and walk and STILL do awesome stuff) is a straight bard, but the archetypes are very useful.

I...what?

Bards are awesomely badass and some of the most versatile characters in the game. I have no idea what you're talking about, actually.


I played a sorcerer the other night for PFS.

In a party with two rogues, two rangers and no healers.

Currently making an oracle. I already know that they're going to be idyllkin with the Lame curse, and I've figured out the ability scores, but I'm still figuring out spells and mysteries.

What could you recommend for someone that a) wants to keep the party alive, and b) likes to summon things?


The Life Mystery should be all you need for healing. As for summoning, just get Augment Summoning and maybe Superior Summoning and always have the 2 highest Summon Monster spells for your level available. Life Oracle is actually pretty good for summoning because you can channel to heal your party and your summons at the same time.

As an alternative, go with a Nature Oracle. The Bonded Mount will mostly negate the lame curse. Friend to the Animals will give summoned animals your charisma-bonus on all saves, which is pretty good. It's just too bad that the Summon Nature's Ally are overall inferior to the more versatile Summon Monster.

Overall, I'd go with the Life Oracle for summons + healing.


Woo Pastebin.

Now, you may be wondering why I have Skill Focus for Knowledge(arcana). This is because I want to take Eldritch Heritage and nab a familiar, should Luka live that long. Sending a little flying critter to deliver Cure and Inflict spells? Sign me up!

(also an intentionally gender-ambiguous name, since I'm not sure if I'm making Luka male or female)

(also also a good necromancer. I'm an Abhorsen!)

Liberty's Edge

One big problem with that character: What does he do when not casting?

You can't cast every round of every fight with that spell loadout, hell, at 1st you can't even cast every fight...and he can't even Aid Another effectively. I suspect you'll feel bored and/or useless for at least a while. Cause Fear will help at level 2...but maybe not enough.


Dammit.

I could play a party face (I seem to end up doing that anyway in PFS), and that massive Charisma will surely help with diplomacy.

Still, if it's a bad build, I can wipe it clean and start over.

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