Sounds legit
Sorry for being a noob but why falcata over greatsword for paladin or any other class if it matters?
2 of those are measured in rounds/level. It'll be hard to get everyone buffed up with rounds/level durations and then jump the teleport. Also, don't some BBEG (at least, smart ones) have non-detection and/or scry the party? Not the other way around?
Also, you are still assuming flank and sneak attack. You still never addressed the likely situation that a monster is immune to precision damage or cannot be flanked. How does your rogue get to a flank position, and how much damage has a archer fighter laid downrange by the time you get there? That is what I mean that "in a perfect situation" sure, the rogue can win. Assuming we used a training dummy that everyone hits on a 2, and has infinite hitpoints, and is vulnerable to sneak attack/flanking. That is not how enemies work. You don't teleport in already flanking them. You have to move through threatened squares usually in order to flank. If you even can flank.
Well, in defense of the sneak attacker, the best sneak attacker is almost certainly a ninja. When you add greater invisibility into the mix at level 10, getting into flanking position is a lot easier. And that's even if you and I disagree on how invisibility works, Tarantula. I still don't think the ninja is anywhere near the top of the damage list. I think the 2h barbarian and the 2h fighter are at the top of that list for martial classes. Any type of ranger against his #1 favored enemy is also close. A well-built, str-based ninja using either a katana or an Elven curve blade will only be about 10% behind, but that 10% is a fairly decent amount, and the higher level you get, the more than 10% is.
Isn't that the point of build threads? To prove instead of "I think"?
To be fair, the olympics thread had limits on the kinds of buffs received. I'd be curious on a "maximum possible" damage comparison as well. Take the best builds from the olympics thread, and let them all hit on a 2 (against a target dummy or something). See how that changes things. (All hitting on a 2 is to compensate for the capability of being supremely over-buffed such as in a scry'n'die party). This is essentially Undone's point. That rogues(sneak attack really) will win, if given enough buffs. And still excluding summons.
Then again, all the talk of "buffed" dps in this thread is moot, as the title was UNBUFFED dps.
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+6 to hit Bite 1d6 + 3
+6 to hit Claw 1d4 + 3
+6 to hit Claw 1d4 + 3
Your build is not legal. Quads start with a 14 strength.
+STR = 2 evo
Mount = 1 evo
Pounce = 1 evo
Bite = 1 evo
No way you can get 5 evolution points at 1st level.
Not to mention you tanked will saves trying to get numbers that are still less impressive than what can be pulled with a barbarian at level 1.
That barbarian won't even need strait lines to hit an opponent.
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Now this going to based on the Rogue hitting his mark with every hit.
Which is why DPR calculations include to-hit chance.
Unfortunately, 140d6 + 280 isn't even close to maximum possible damage at level 20.
At this level of play I would expect Barbarians and Fighters doing an average of 500+ DPR.
I would also expect wizards rocking DC30+ save and suck spells.
I feel like barbarians get not as high a damage from what people are posting. Maybe I don't realize how high the damage is.
Even at level 20:
2 handed
Power attack: +12 damage-> 2-handed +18
Str with rage: (base 16 + 6 enh. Item +4 rage + 5 inherent Book +5 levels +3 courageous bonus to rage) 39 (+14 modifier)...2-handed: +21
Optional: witch hunter damage vs. spellcasters: +5
Furious courageous +5 nodachi/ falchion: +7 enhancement
Total damage: 1d10+46 (1d10+51 vs. casters)
5 attacks w/ haste included: total round damage: 5d10+230 (5d10+255 vs. casters)
Not quite seeing where the 350+ damage people get for barbarians are coming from. Unless they count come and get me.
Now, if there is even 2 come and get me AoO attacks, that puts me at 7 attacks for the round, matching an archers full attack at peak performance. If I get 4 come and get me attacks, I then equal a full flurry, ki attack, hasted zen archer.
9x 1d10+46= 9d10+414 from 9 attacks in the round
Also forgot about raging brutality feat.
20th level con with rage is +8, +10 if you have raging vitality.
Base 14 con + 6 item + 4 inherent bonus= +24.
10+24=34 (+12 modifier)
2handed +12= +18 damage
Damage total, when using raging brutality= 1d10+64 per attack.
Full attack 5 attacks= 5d10+ 320..or 10d4+320 if using falchion, and not nodachi. Seems like a good amount of damage.
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EDIT: I present Cannon Glass. The dumbest orc fighter you'll ever see.
Orc Fighter 12
The name's Cannon, Glass Cannon. The orc printer, any color as long as it's red.
20 points
STR 22 +2 levels +6 item
Dex 18 +1 level
Con 8
int 5
wis 5
cha 5
108k
36k +6 str belt
32k +1 speed falcata
32k +1 speed falcata
Feats
1: EWP Falcata
f1: WF Falcata
f2: Power attack
3: TWF
4f: weapon specialization falcata
5: Double slice
6f: ITWF
7: Furious focus
8f: Imp crit falcata
9:
10f:
11: GTWF
12f: greater weapon focus
Furious Focus requires you to wield the weapon two handed
Its pointless wielding two weapons.
It appears as if your calculations also assume that the critical threats always confirm, which they won't.
Personally, I prefer the double sword build because you can switch between TFW and 2HF if you need to, though the x3 crit is hard to beat in the falcata.
Why do you all post builds without DPR calcultion on here? Iisnt that kinda pointless?
Has anyone compiled a dps table for various levels and builds, so one can with a quick glance realize how horrible the own creation sucks?
And is fighter and/or barb the best dps class, when it comes to unbuffed DPS, so enganging in a combat without any forewarning?
(fighter is naturally good, because his stuff always works and barb can activate with a swift action, many builds i see seem to assume 1-4 rounds preparation prior battle)And is fighter the best dps class for long adventuring, so 10 combats or so?
(barb for example would run out of rage, figher only needs to be healed, restored or resurected in between and repair his weapon)
If you're looking to compare actual in-game combat effectiveness of damage focused builds I think you may be asking for the wrong info. What I'm saying is that achieving a "sufficiently high" average DPR with a full attack (IMO: enough to one-shot a CR = PC lvl) isn't very hard for melee builds like barbs, TW rangers or 2H fighters. But IME, the true optimization challenge for melee builds like these lies in achieving that DPR in a large majority of rounds in real game combat, not just under suitable conditions or during the highest levels.
For example, the most important round of combat tends to be the first, and IME your PC rarely starts her first turn rubbing noses with the BBEG. This means that a mobile melee build that does 100 DPR with a full attack and has, say, pounce and the ability to charge through allies and difficult terrain, will likely have a higher actual DPR than the standard less mobile melee build with twice the DPR on a full attack. Most melee builds have plenty of options for improving full attack DPR, making it relatively easy to achieve "enough", while the good mobility/action economy options (such as pounce) rarely comes with less than a ton of strings attached.
With as many as 10 combats/day, a 2h fighter will probably shine during early levels, a melee pally vs the highest CR opponents and i guess an archer build has the most consistent DPR and will end up having the highest actual DPR total if adding all levels together. Still, DPR or even "actual DPR" doesn't translate into striker effectiveness, it's just easier to estimate and quantify DPR than most other factors. For example, something like a highly mobile barb (/monk?) can have a higher damage potential than an archer and be the optimal build for many 10-fights-a-day campaigns, depending on the CR spread of the typical enemy group and adventuring day, typical enemy abilities, party composition, playstyle etc.
Of course, this doesn't account for the summoner, as that ridiculous action economy and summoning versatility takes it beyond any competition (as long as it's not played by someone with a complete lack of tactical sense).
If you're interested in theoretical optimization it's a different story though. In that case I guess you could gain a lot more from a DPR table.
I see people post dpr., but I don't actually know the equation, and I've seen a few different versions of it. If someone can post it on here, since that is the actual thing the OP was asking about, then i'llgladly give the dpr, in all-use/situational/optimal conditions.The barbarian build I posted, which is a pretty straightforward, gets all the damage 100% of the time when he hits, has a high dpr I can imagine.
The witch hunter and raging brutality are options for extra damage. Everything else for his damage is standard, use all the time, will work all the time damage.
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I see people post dpr., but I don't actually know the equation, and I've seen a few different versions of it. If someone can post it on here, since that is the actual thing the OP was asking about, then i'llgladly give the dpr, in all-use/situational/optimal conditions.The barbarian build I posted, which is a pretty straightforward, gets all the damage 100% of the time when he hits, has a high dpr I can imagine.
The witch hunter and raging brutality are options for extra damage. Everything else for his damage is standard, use all the time, will work all the time damage.
Typically, I use this:
(Average CR AC - Attack Bonus)x [(damage dice average + flat bonuses)+(Non-critical damage)] + [(critical multiplier - 1)x(Average CR AC - Attack Bonus)x(damage dice average + flat bonuses)x(critical chance)]
or
H = Chance to Hit
D = Average Damage per hit
N = Non-critical Damage
X = Critical Multiplier
C = Critical Chance
[H(D+N)]+([X-1]HDC)
In my experience, summoners win the DPR contest due to action economy and lots of arms wielding falcatas.
Technically, what I posted was a Damage per Hit calculator. You need to multiply it by attacks, or add the values of different attacks together to get DPR.
Awesome. Thanks for the formula, especially with it fully laid out.
Seriously>_>
All right, this is a disgusting glass cannon unbuffed summoner build:
Half-elf Wildcaller 20
Eidolon slam biped
Give it 28 arms and 4 dex buffs, small and improved AC. For feats: multiweapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting, point blank shot, deadly aim, improved initiative, improved critical and, of course, exotic weapon proficiencies:firearm
proceed to give it !28! revolvers and fire 3 shots per arm per round.
Two glorious rounds of around 1400 DPR, if you give it reliable weapons.
That's the only buff it needs though. Pricey though, for !28! of them.
But seriously, 1400 DPR. Even with DR 10, that's approximately 1120.
The summoner doesn't even need to do anything but laugh and laugh and laugh. +0 DPR +1000 shame for being shot to ultra-death.
If you bother with using the summoner's buffs, the thing can have 8 more arms with evolution surges for 20 mins/spell, or do other crazy crap, like fly or completely respec after or before battle.
1400 dpr!!!! Unbuffed!
Also, it's AC is like 41 as well, so it's pretty darn hard to hit too. And it's +14 initiative makes for quick kills if it gets in range.
I'd be happy to complete the build and post it if people want more detail.
Do I win the internet?
@Dr. Calvin: Cheestastic! Considering the size and insane rate of fire, how about naming it "Mini Gundolon"?
IMO, the most disgusting things about your glass cannon are that a) it uses ranged weapons, b) it cannot die while the eternally laughing summoner still stands, c) it can share all that DPR love with up to 84(!) different targets, and - especially - d) the summoner can buy another 28 revolvers and double the fun (Twin Eidolon). The KPR (kills per round) potential is utterly sick. Probably needs a bunch of cohorts/followers to carry the ammo and do the reloading though...
So yes, you win the internet. *applauds*
Enjoy before we find or someone posts something even worse! ;-)