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I have recently bought the Ultimate Campaigns PDF. I'm not usually to much of a stickler for realism or artwork but the cover is just bad. The weapons and armor are starting to look very very silly.
This has been a recurring theme through out your products. I love the Inner Sea World Guide due to it interior art and the cover is ok.
Anyway as I said doesn't have to be to realistic but please no more badly drawn meat cleavers.
Greatsword
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zweihaender_im_historischen_Museum_Basel. JPG
Viking blades
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Viking_swords.jpg
Longsword (maybe bastard sword in game terms)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Espadon-Morges.jpg
It is a little Warheimer, isn't it?
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The cover's fantastic. Wayne Reynolds is a genius who's existence is a blessing to all who love fantasy art. 'Nuff said.
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I like the overly broad blades and heavy looking armor. It's part of Wayne Rexnolds's style and by extension and even more importantly part of PFRPG's visual style. Yes it's unrealistic and actual swords like that would handle like steel girders, but it still looks good.
Wayne (and any other well known illustrator for that matter) did not gain the status he has today by drawing things that look realistic, but by drawing things that look good. That is the point of the illustrator's profession.
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Yar!
uhm... this is the same art we've been getting from paizo for the entire pathfinder line. It has not changed. At all.
The swords have always been thick. exhibit A: Valeros (one of the earlier pieces of pathfinder art we have has the same thick swords)
Heck, Seelah, who is featured on the cover, is exactly the same as when she first appeared in the CRB! exhibit B: Seelah. Same armor. Same sword.
This IS what pathfinder art looks like. It has not changed. As you said: "This has been a recurring theme through out your products." Why yes, yes it is. You just nailed it. This IS a theme with their products. This IS a theme with their art. This is a part of what makes it "Pathfinder".
That is a good thing.
~P
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Exactly. Never forget the RPG rule, "Realism Is Bad."
Incorrect, the actual rule is: "Realism is negligible"
Better known as the "Rule of Cool".
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I'm a fan of Wayne Reynolds' art, but I am also a fan of realistic weapons and armor. I just think they look better.
Those two things are not mutually exclusive. There are some earlier history books on ancient warriors that Mr. Reynolds illustrated to a higher degree of realism, and they're really cool.
I mean, I "get" the over-the-top fantasy heft of his Pathfinder style. It's a superhero game and he makes the characters look like comic-book superheroes. I just wouldn't complain much if there were a touch more grit.
There's something aesthetically pleasing to me about slightly goofy yet utilitarian arms and armor. The anime influence has its place, but it would be a shame if we lost that reverence for history that was present in force in the earliest editions of the game.
my .02.
Historically accurate weapons are easy to find. Just google, hunt, and have fun.
What you aren't going to find many of are magic weapons or armor. Cuz they don't exist- until an artist pens them. Mr. Reynolds does an excellent job of bringing that non-existent thing to life in his art.
Zomg why isn't that broadsword a broadsword? Cuz its a +3 Broadsword of Whoopass and he couldn't find any in the historical data to base his drawing off of- so he made it up. And he did a dang good job too.
The Pathfinder art brings the world to life. It brings monsters to life that don't exist except in the minds of the creators and it brings life to the items they bring into and wield in combat.
Keep up the good work.
-S
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Zomg why isn't that broadsword a broadsword? Cuz its a +3 Broadsword of Whoopass and he couldn't find any in the historical data to base his drawing off of- so he made it up. And he did a dang good job too.
The Pathfinder art brings the world to life. It brings monsters to life that don't exist except in the minds of the creators and it brings life to the items they bring into and wield in combat.
I freely condede the point that Mr. Reynolds did a dang good job. It was a stylistic choice I personally didn't like, and although I'm not alone there I'm quite willing to believe I'm in the minority. I'm certain Mr. Reynolds' fans far outnumber the "meh"-sayers.
That said, here's why I don't like such depictions and chose to reply to your comment: all magic weapons and armor begin as mundane (if masterwork) weapons and armor. They have the size and weight appropriate to the mundane weapon, factoring in special materials if any.
Even with the fact that each +1 adds to the hardness and hit points of weapons and armor, there is nothing anywhere to suggest that applying any number of enchancement bonuses or armor/weapon qualities should affect the dimensions or mass of the item. If there were, then "light, one-handed or two-handed" rules and "light, medium, heavy armor" would have to be expanded to consider whether or not the item were magical.
Arrgh. I accidentally favorited my own first message in the thread, went to my account to attempt to remove the favorited status, and deleted the message itself.
Sigh. Well, it was mostly a list of fantasy and sci-fi artists whose work is both excellent and realistic. And challenging Gorbacz's apparent suggestion that Pathfinder rulebooks are available in less popular "non-Wayne Reynolds" variant covers.
Zomg why isn't that broadsword a broadsword? Cuz its a +3 Broadsword of Whoopass and he couldn't find any in the historical data to base his drawing off of- so he made it up. And he did a dang good job too.
The Pathfinder art brings the world to life. It brings monsters to life that don't exist except in the minds of the creators and it brings life to the items they bring into and wield in combat.
I freely condede the point that Mr. Reynolds did a dang good job. It was a stylistic choice I personally didn't like, and although I'm not alone there I'm quite willing to believe I'm in the minority. I'm certain Mr. Reynolds' fans far outnumber the "meh"-sayers.
That said, here's why I don't like such depictions and chose to reply to your comment: all magic weapons and armor begin as mundane (if masterwork) weapons and armor. They have the size and weight appropriate to the mundane weapon, factoring in special materials if any.
Even with the fact that each +1 adds to the hardness and hit points of weapons and armor, there is nothing anywhere to suggest that applying any number of enchancement bonuses or armor/weapon qualities should affect the dimensions or mass of the item. If there were, then "light, one-handed or two-handed" rules and "light, medium, heavy armor" would have to be expanded to consider whether or not the item were magical.
I would light-heartedly assert that the +X goes somewhere.. arguably into the build/weight/etc. of the weapon. Hey, its magic. Of course it doesn't alter the light/one/two handedness. :)
-S
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We are talking about a personal preference, I don't think we need to bother too much with logic here.
It boils down to: some folks really don't like it. A lot of folks do. And I'm somewhere in the middle, where I think it's okay but there's a style that I feel is missing and I wouldn't mind seeing more of it.
Interestingly, that new artist they have onboard for the internal illustrations in Ultimate Campaign has a really photorealistic style.
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I can see both sides of this. This isn't a question of realism as much as it is a question of the scope of the picture. The Ult. campaign picture is zoomed out enough that if you did realistic weapons, it would look like some of the weapons were sticks. You can see the same exact thing happen in all art showing these type of weapons. Even do a google image search on St George... the old pictures from the 1600s all show a more realistic weapon, and it looks like he's holding a pipe or a staff, and not a spear. The more recent pieces embellish the spear and make it bigger, so that you can tell what it is.
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Art tends to be generational. The younger artists and audience look to find an independant art style. I think Wayne rides a fine line between traditional and new school.
IMO the covers to the Core Rule book, Box set & Ultimate series are bursting with excitment. Excitment is an awesome sales pitch!
Arrgh. I accidentally favorited my own first message in the thread, went to my account to attempt to remove the favorited status, and deleted the message itself.
Sigh. Well, it was mostly a list of fantasy and sci-fi artists whose work is both excellent and realistic. And challenging Gorbacz's apparent suggestion that Pathfinder rulebooks are available in less popular "non-Wayne Reynolds" variant covers.
If you have time to redo that list I would be interested to see it.
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If we're voting, I'll say that in general, I don't think super huge weapons look cool, they look funny. Even by superheroic standards, the Pathfinder house style feature some huge, blocky weapons. I'm more "buh?" than "awesome." But different strokes for different folks. It is sort of funny that the characters look like paintings of miniatures.
If you have time to redo that list I would be interested to see it.Arrgh. I accidentally favorited my own first message in the thread, went to my account to attempt to remove the favorited status, and deleted the message itself.
Sigh. Well, it was mostly a list of fantasy and sci-fi artists whose work is both excellent and realistic.
Let's see, it was more or less Larry Elmore, Keith Parkinson, the Brothers Hildebrandt, Darrell K. Sweet, Bob Eggleton, Vincent DiFate, David Cherry, John Berkey, Boris Vallejo, Julie Bell, Wayne Barlowe, Michael Whelan...
That's obviously not a comprehensive list of fantasy/sci-fi artists whose work leans more toward realism than anime/exaggeration for effect. It's not even a complete list of the ones I really, really like. I was just trying to make the point (mainly to Threeshades and The floor is lava, at that point in the thread) that "realistic" vs. "cool" is a false dichotomy: lots of artists manage both quite handily.
And again, I make no suggestion that Wayne Renolds couldn't do the same, or is any less talented than those I listed. He's chosen this style for his Paizo work, and I'm in (I believe) a minority of pepole who wish he hadn't.
I remember about a hundred years ago, reading Marvel's New Mutants and thinking what a horrible artist Bill Sienkiewicz was -- how did this guy even get a job drawing comics? Then I got a look at some of his earlier work, which was much more to my taste, and was horrified to realize he'd chosen to adopt the weird expressionistic style.
If we're voting, I'll say that in general, I don't think super huge weapons look cool, they look funny. Even by superheroic standards, the Pathfinder house style feature some huge, blocky weapons.
"By superheroic standards?" Hey, not all superhero comics artists (or even most, thank God) draw like Rob Liefeld. :)
Dear Paizo, I like what you're doing with the cover. Keep up the good work!
I cannot favorite this enough!
And again, I make no suggestion that Wayne Renolds couldn't do the same, or is any less talented than those I listed. He's chosen this style for his Paizo work, and I'm in (I believe) a minority of pepole who wish he hadn't.
I think you got that wrong. Paizo chose Wayne for his style of work not the other way around.
I remember about a hundred years ago, reading Marvel's New Mutants and thinking what a horrible artist Bill Sienkiewicz was -- how did this guy even get a job drawing comics? Then I got a look at some of his earlier work, which was much more to my taste, and was horrified to realize he'd chosen to adopt the weird expressionistic style.
As a comic book fan Bill Sienkiewicz's work on the electra series is groundbreaking. Using oil, and collage....crazy stuff. Maybe New Mutants was an odd comic for Jim Shooter to assign him too but Bill is an artist's artist.
I'll pull a quote from Jim shooters blog on Bill
Bill Sienkiewicz. I love Bill. Great guy. Brilliant, amazing, world-class artist. One time, back in my Marvel days, we needed a New Mutants poster. Bill was the obvious choice. We described to him what we wanted, a classic group shot, the definitive, iconic image of the New Mutants. Man, we could just picture the poster image we’d all agreed upon painted by the amazing Bill. When he brought the finished painting in, however, it was nothing like what we had proposed and he had agreed to execute. Completely different. Brilliantly painted, yes. Actually, it was a collage. It had some radio parts glued onto it. Not what we had intended.
Publisher Mike Hobson’s reaction was “I’d love to have this hanging in my office, but it isn’t what we commissioned.”
Still a pretty good poster, though. We went with it. Sigh.
That got me way off topic. lol
Anyway I enjoy Wayne's art and am looking forward to his book.
-MD
PS: Great list of artists you listed Damon. The art of Dragonlance books is one of my all time favorate art books and have a lot of the artists you listed in it.
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[Let's see, it was more or less Larry Elmore, Keith Parkinson, the Brothers Hildebrandt, Darrell K. Sweet, Bob Eggleton, Vincent DiFate, David Cherry, John Berkey, Boris Vallejo, Julie Bell, Wayne Barlowe, Michael Whelan...
Good list! Negative points to you for posting Boris and not Frazetta though. ;-)
Sigh...I'm sad there will no more work from Sweet and Parkinson.
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I think the guy who I like the best is the "T.D." guy from the 2nd edition monstrous compendium. I think maybe it's this guy
Yep, it's Tony DiTerlizzi. All time favorite D&D artist. His Planescape work and those entries in the Monstrous Manual just sang to me.
Really loved Brom, Elmore, and Parkinson and many others as well. There's plenty of room for both the realistic and the stylized in fantasyland. :)
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In case Paizo is tallying opinions on this:
I am willing to live with some exaggeration in features so long as it does not cross over into territory I will describe as "Astoundingly dumb." Most of the weapons depicted in Pathfinder art are exaggerated, but I'm willing to believe that elite humans/humanoids (which the Pathfinder iconics are) can wield them. They're a little bit beyond what I'd expect realistic people to be using, but not so far out that I go "Pfft, no. Wrong and dumb."
The iconic Barbarian on the other hand goes so far into exaggerated range that even as I acknowledge it's well done art, I just have to shake my head and laugh. It's implausibly big, it dominates the character's aesthetic such that I have trouble noticing other aspects about them, and just goes too far.
I prefer realistic weapon and armor depictions, but I'm fully willing to live with 'semi-exaggerated but we're keeping it somewhere vaguely plausible.' That's fine, and most Pathfinder art does this. If the majority wants semi-exaggerated, I'll come along for the ride with no real complaints. So long as characters don't wind up looking like they'd fit in with the 'SOLDIER Divisions' of Final Fantasy VII, it's fine by me.
That said, good art is part of why I buy these products. Chronicle of the Righteous was a fairly decent book for my needs as a player (it didn't have everything I expected, but what it did have was interesting)... yet you know what made me happiest about it? Quality art of a Silvanshee Agathion. The previous art of this creature made it look like it was going to star in the latest episode of Jackson Galaxy's "My Cat from Hell." The new art makes it look calm and noble, like I'd expect a Holy Cat of Benevolent Enlightenment to be! Now I have a nice picture of this for when/if my characters summon them, acquire them as Familiars, and so on. This one thing, this piece of quality art, made me feel notably better about my purchase. Nice pictures really help your products.
I actually like Amiri's sword because of the backstory, I just with that there was a standing order for artists that unless she's actively swinging it with both hands, she's dragging it along the ground. How cool would that be?
Even as a member of the realistic-is-cool camp, I'll embrace oversized weapons if they look oversized. I've seen many Amiri shots where it just looks like the sword is made of foam rubber, which diminishes her coolness to me. I want to see veins popping!
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Most people who complain about Amiri's sword don't realize that it is actually a frost giant's weapon, she gets attack penalties for using it (even in the stat blocks we give her), and really can only effectively wield it with her Strength bonus from raging. It's part of her character concept. Her backstory explains why she carries it.
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I've actually read over Amiri's history. It is for the most part an interesting tale, and one I could see leaving a character bitter and prone to occasional fits of rage. It's quite fitting to her!
Her sword remains aesthetically jarring even if one factors in all those justifications and "she's actually taking penalties for it." It is this huge chunk of metal that takes the worst parts of Tetsuya Nomura's character-art design trends and runs with it. It takes attention away from the character, and thrusts it onto her weapon. The object comes across as more important than the wielder.
Yes, it's true that Amiri's art is full of detail on the character herself for those who choose to look that way. This is a nod to the generally skilled artists you work with. I still dislike how her sword detracts from her, and seeing art of Amiri like that will slightly diminish my opinion of a product. (Rarely enough to prevent me from buying it, mind you. I'm not that much of an 'art snob')
I'm aware of why Amiri has a Cloud Strife Sword, that it's justified in-system and has associated penalties and benefits, and I still don't like it.
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I'd argue that in-world, the sword detracts from her as well: she feels guilty for her kinsmen she killed, though they had set up her to be killed, and the sword is a constant reminder of her actions. It is a burden. Her sword is, in effect, her cross to bear.
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That is a pretty neat story piece! I'll keep that in mind, and it does make the character a bit more interesting. Still, my opinion of it from an art perspective remains; it takes up about a full 1/3rd of her image, and the same general effect of "Oh my (deity)! That sword is almost as big as a Xbox!" could be accomplished even if it was significantly less wide and it'd even still be proportional for a Frost Giant to use.
Mind you, this is not a huge deal. I don't like it even with the justifications because I feel the picture becomes one of "a really big sword... oh, and there's its wielder" rather than primarily about Amiri, but its net impact on how I view the Pathfinder brand is really, really small. Most of the other things in Paizo's books are well within my tolerances...
...And I'll say this: I solely bought AP 68 (Shackled Hut) for your (as in "your, Sean", not "your, Paizo") article on Milani. The art ended up being a bonus. I haven't played the AP. I probably never will. Bought it just for the article you wrote, and walked away with some interesting points and was pleasantly surprised by the art that accompanied it. It hit most of my aesthetic tastes very well, and I was left saying "Hey, Milani and most of her followers look neat." Between the article and the art, I figured my $15 was decently spent!
If you have time to redo that list I would be interested to see it.Arrgh. I accidentally favorited my own first message in the thread, went to my account to attempt to remove the favorited status, and deleted the message itself.
Sigh. Well, it was mostly a list of fantasy and sci-fi artists whose work is both excellent and realistic.
Let's see, it was more or less Larry Elmore, Keith Parkinson, the Brothers Hildebrandt, Darrell K. Sweet, Bob Eggleton, Vincent DiFate, David Cherry, John Berkey, Boris Vallejo, Julie Bell, Wayne Barlowe, Michael Whelan...
Thanks! Some of my favorites in your list and some new names for me to look up too.
Thanks, CP, glad you like the article. :)
I do not mind exaggerated art and PF art is usually quite good. They just missed the bus with this one IMHO.
I wouldn't argue that PF's art is intended for total versimilitude, but if you compare it to the art found in White Dwarf and other Games Workshop products... Admittedly, they aim toward a little self-parody, but I always get a chuckle out of weapons that aren't merely so outsized that they would cause their bearer to fall over - regardless of strength - with one swing, but the fact that they're often dual-wielding these hilarious bits of ironmongery. Either they've invented a metal that's approximately as dense as a helium balloon, or tank armor in that universe is made of wrist tendons - a substance far stronger than adamantine.
A big part of that whole style is that those designs are easy to paint.
Space Marine armor doesn't make a lick of sense, so they have all sorts of in-world reasoning to force it to make sense. Even then it's a bit of a stretch.
Big blocky things are just easier to paint a bajillion of, which is a major consideration with GW products.
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Most people who complain about Amiri's sword don't realize that it is actually a frost giant's weapon, she gets attack penalties for using it (even in the stat blocks we give her), and really can only effectively wield it with her Strength bonus from raging. It's part of her character concept. Her backstory explains why she carries it.But... but that's not optimized! Hasn't Amiri read the forums? She's got a suboptimal build and shouldn't be allowed to exist!
I know, right? What was she thinking: character concept over optimization! Feh! She should be shamed from the boards! ;-)
On Topic, I can see both sides here even though I am a big fan of Wayne Reynolds style. All you have to do is check out the art from the current AP—Reign of Winter—to see realistic proportions and appreciate the beauty of that style of fantasy art. Dmitry Burmak's work in particular is amazing. The characters are vivid and beautiful. On the flip side, Dmitry Prosvirnin is providing artwork that looks drawn directly from a fairy tale. Truly superb!
So while Wayne Reynolds doing exaggerated equipment may not be everyone's cup of tea, it actually makes up a fairly small portion of the total art from the company. He will keep on doing the covers for their core rules set, but his work in the other areas is usually limited to the occasional Adventure Path cover.
In conclusion I have to ask you these questions, Zardnaar: Does your dislike of the exaggerated weapons make you less likely to buy? How many people are more likely to pick it up and look with the art as is? Your tastes are not in any way wrong, but they are not necessarily in tune with the majority. Ultimately this is a marketing decision, and there are far more fans of WAR's work than detractors. So I don't think they will be changing this anytime soon.
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I like big swords and I cannot lie. :)
Amiri's stomach scar is totally awesome. Just sayin'.
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Dear Paizo, I like what you're doing with the cover. Keep up the good work!
I love Wayne Reynolds art work, he's a really nice guy too once I met him at PaizoCon last year.
Thus, when I went looking to commission some art I thought to look him up and discovered he only does corporate art, not personal commissions. Then I saw you could get a personal commission for ... I think it was 10k in the Pathfinder Online Kickstarter. I was sad that I'm not richer, for I would absolutely pay that if I could to have Wayne do a piece of art for me.