Dear Paizo (Art)


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Liberty's Edge

Calybos1 wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Most people who complain about Amiri's sword don't realize that it is actually a frost giant's weapon, she gets attack penalties for using it (even in the stat blocks we give her), and really can only effectively wield it with her Strength bonus from raging. It's part of her character concept. Her backstory explains why she carries it.

But... but that's not optimized! Hasn't Amiri read the forums? She's got a suboptimal build and shouldn't be allowed to exist!

Harsk used a crossbow, even before APG.

Valeros is a TWF Fighter with 2 different weapons.

I believe it is on purpose that some (maybe all) Iconics are not optimized.

Maybe it is so that we, unoptimized players and GMs, can identify with them :-))

More on topic, one of my friend had a commission done by Wayne Reynolds several years ago. I will make sure to tell her how lucky she is :-)


I can't stand WAR's style (and, by extension, the Pathfinder "signature" style). That said, I accept that I'm an old grognard, and that all the kids seem to love the rad spikey hair, characters hyperkinetically flying in all directions like Tinkerbell, and weapons that look like they weigh at least 27 tons. If that's what sells, so be it. I don't have to like it, as long as the rest of the fanbase does.

Shadow Lodge

Dear Paizo,

The level of violence and gore in your artwork is appalling. Please remove all blood and viscera from future art orders. Thank you.

TOZ


Yar!

TOZ wrote:

Dear Paizo,

The level of violence and gore in your artwork is appalling. Please remove all blood and viscera from future art orders. Thank you.

TOZ

...but then... where will they put it? It has to so somewhere!

... or... are you volunteering to take care of it all? Yes, that must be it!

Paizo! Mail all of your violence, gore, blood and viscera to TOZ... today!

;D

~P


I must have a special edition of Ultimate Campaign that comes with this super awesome cover. I haven't seen the standard edition with this terrible cover you speak of.


Some of WAR's art annoys me (the iconic witch comes to mind), but I generally appreciate it. I rather like the cover of Ultimate Campaign. I particularly like the banners. The one Ezren is holding in the top-left corner is really cool. I've adopted it, as it reminds me of Llael (from the Iron Kingdoms), and will be using it in a homebrew world. Indeed, it's inspired me to come up with many other banners which I will also be using, lending some verisimilitude to my setting. Cheers!


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

People who complain about fantasy artwork not being realistic enough are missing the point of fantasy artwork.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I've been reading this thread and wondering, what is a cloud strife sword?

Digital Products Assistant

Removed a post and the replies quoting it. Please don't use the word "gay" as a negative descriptor.


Alzrius wrote:
People who complain about fantasy artwork not being realistic enough are missing the point of fantasy artwork.

Not at all. They simply recognize that the presence of fantasy elements does require a total disregard for basic physical principles.

I reject the notion that the point of fantasy artwork is to depict a universe where there are no constants.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

However, those constants do not have to be the same constants that exist in our world.

Shadow Lodge

Zaister wrote:
I've been reading this thread and wondering, what is a cloud strife sword?

Cloud Strife is the main character of Final Fantasy VII. He uses an extremely oversized two-handed broadsword/zweihaender referred to in-game as a "Buster Sword", pictured in the article.


Why are his feet bigger than his head?
And is he on stilts under those Army pants?

Shadow Lodge

idk
and no I dont think so

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Don't ever show Kirth anything by Clamp.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Don't ever show Kirth anything by Clamp.

Are those the ones where all the characters look like Hummel figurines?

Those ones seriously creep me out!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

No, but I admit that I had a hard time watching xxxHolic due to the character designs.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
No, but I admit that I had a hard time watching xxxHolic due to the character designs.

OK, I Google Imaged "xxxHolic" and actually kind of like what I saw. Sure, the characters are all lank and bent and ghoulish-looking, but the art quality seemed very good - not like a lot of them where it seems like the main driver for character appearance is "can you sketch and ink a frame in less than 14 seconds." Also, there was a nod to ambient light conditions, and a hint at physical depth (vs. the aggressively 2-D style that seems to dominate the genre).

Spoiler:
(In case anyone hadn't guessed, I studied art before I realized I sucked at it and went into the sciences instead.)

Shadow Lodge

Kirth Gersen wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Heh. I started in on an art/animation school but when I realized it wasn't what I wanted to do I think I promptly forgot everything I'd learned...


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Damon Griffin wrote:
Alzrius wrote:
People who complain about fantasy artwork not being realistic enough are missing the point of fantasy artwork.

Not at all. They simply recognize that the presence of fantasy elements does require a total disregard for basic physical principles.

I reject the notion that the point of fantasy artwork is to depict a universe where there are no constants.

TriOmegaZero wrote:
However, those constants do not have to be the same constants that exist in our world.

TOZ has the right of it.

I'm of the opinion that the mere presence of fantastic elements does not, unto itself, mean that there's ground to say that any given element of realism isn't true in a particular context.

However, in this case, we have a meta-contextual element - the game rules - that the artwork in this case is supposed to be modeling. Since the game rules do directly address equipment, but deliberately exclude issues like item weight and balance or cosmetic alterations impacting functionality, it seems fair to say that there's at least credible reason for assuming that things don't necessarily work in the Pathfinder game world the way they do here.

After all, this is a world where, without any magic at all, barbarians can see in the dark by getting angry (the night vision rage power).


Alzrius wrote:
Since the game rules do directly address equipment, but deliberately exclude issues like item weight...

Did Pathfinder finally get rid of encumbrance and weight allowance? I know most people never bothered to track them...

That said, envisioning the entire world of Golarion as ultra-low-gravity would make the art suddenly seem to perfectly fit the setting, and would provide a rationale for why people can jump off of 1,000-foot cliffs and live. Hmmm, you might definitely be on to something there. People NEED those giant weapons just to get some impact in!

Silver Crusade

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Why are his feet bigger than his head?

And is he on stilts under those Army pants?

Someone please show Kirth a link to the character design portrait for Nooj! (on a phone at the moment)

Somewhere along the way, Nomura forgot what the word "restraint" means. It's especially frustrating considering his early work in Parasite Eve.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Did Pathfinder finally get rid of encumbrance and weight allowance? I know most people never bothered to track them...

If you'd read the next two words in my post that you quoted, that would have removed your confusion (since distribution of weight is part of balance).


when anybody looks at "Giant swords" and attributes them to "Anime" as if it were a bad thing, it offends me.

Fantasy is over the Top in general.

it isn't just the Japanese stuff

even in the bible, there were accounts of humans who lived to be nearly 1,000 years old and powerful giants whom stood taller than 10 feet.

hell, a boy survived living inside a whale for nearly a decade

if this stuff isn't as over the top as a human wielding a sword forged for a giant, then i don't know what you think would be.

hell, Jedi in star wars, deflect blaster rounds with freaking lightsabers

and both, lightsabers, and blasters, are weapons way beyond our realistically achievable tech level.

now, we can fake a lightsaber by using a sword that can burn some kind of fuel supply into a form of superheated plasma, but it isn't anything like George Lucas. the problem is, finding a metal that can survive the heat of the plasma

blaster rounds, would require in our world, some kind of process i don't know, but the rounds sure as hell, aren't pure energy.


Yeah, but...

It was rather popularized by Japanese games and comics.

I can't think of an "oversized" sword in western media prior to FFVII, or rather, they'd have a big claymore or something.


Evil Lincoln wrote:

Yeah, but...

It was rather popularized by Japanese games and comics.

I can't think of an "oversized" sword in western media prior to FFVII, or rather, they'd have a big claymore or something.

The Claymore and Flamberg are both massive weapons. The Chinese had a Zhanmadao sword that was used for chopping heads off horses. The Mayans had a Macuahuitl. A weapon was comprised of sharp obsidian and was said to be as tall as a man and could decapitate a person. One of the conquistadors wrote that his horse was decapitated by one.

Let's also not forget that the average height of people was around 5 foot 8.

Even in the Conan movie Thulsa Dooms guard has that MASSIVE hammer.

But I agree with your assesment that Pathfinder weapons are inspired by anime.


Muad'Dib wrote:
Evil Lincoln wrote:

Yeah, but...

It was rather popularized by Japanese games and comics.

I can't think of an "oversized" sword in western media prior to FFVII, or rather, they'd have a big claymore or something.

The Claymore and Flamberg are both massive weapons. The Chinese had a Zhanmadao sword that was used for chopping heads off horses. The Mayans had a Macuahuitl. A weapon was comprised of sharp obsidian and was said to be as tall as a man and could decapitate a person. One of the conquistadors wrote that his horse was decapitated by one.

Let's also not forget that the average height of people was around 5 foot 8.

Even in the Conan movie Thulsa Dooms guard has that MASSIVE hammer.

But I agree with your assesment that Pathfinder weapons are inspired by anime.

oversized weapons?

the sword Beowulf found upon the ground and used to slay Grendel's mother, was a powerful magic weapon forged by Giants, it was pretty oversized if it were forged by Giants

the hammer; Mjiolnir, was so heavy, that even among the gods, thor was the only man whom could wield it. even if it weren't oversized, it still had too much condensed mass to be practical.

to defeat the Persian army, King Alexander of Macedonia, armed his soldiers with spears 20 feet in length, an 18 foot handle with a 2 foot long blade. these spears, quadrupled the Macedonian action economy and allowed their Phalanx to devastate Persia's, because king Darius' men wielded spears 1/4 of the length.

and so far, i listed 2 Nordic examples of overly massed weapons and one Greek example

every culture had an oversized anti-cavalry melee weapon of some kind

but while, japan over popularized oversized weaponry

i note 3 european examples. not all of which were swords, but most of which, had some kind of mass related issue.

but IRL, such weapons are impractical, even against cavalry, for whom they were intended to slay.

the Only Reason Alexander's men could wield their spears in that battle was because the phalanx was bearing the burdens as a team.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Whatever historical precedence you quote, traditional western fantasy art that resonates with D&D gamers (read: Elmore, Easley, Otus and everybody else who did 0E-2E artwork) had "realistic" weapons, armor and proportions. And that's what many gamers are used to.

The first time oversized weapons were featured prominently in the western gaming popculture was when FFVII made it big time. And since then they're associated with anime. If you show an average gamer a small guy wielding a big sword, 9/10 will quote Cloud Strife as the influence.

If you take Wayne Reynolds (who often goes oversized for the dramatic effect) you'll find many people who are fine with his style, but you'll find a strong group of folks who think that his "wuxia anime" style is a sign of all the bad things that happened to D&D.


Gorbacz wrote:

Whatever historical precedence you quote, traditional western fantasy art that resonates with D&D gamers (read: Elmore, Easley, Otus and everybody else who did 0E-2E artwork) had "realistic" weapons, armor and proportions. And that's what many gamers are used to.

The first time oversized weapons were featured prominently in the western gaming popculture was when FFVII made it big time. And since then they're associated with anime. If you show an average gamer a small guy wielding a big sword, 9/10 will quote Cloud Strife as the influence.

If you take Wayne Reynolds (who often goes oversized for the dramatic effect) you'll find many people who are fine with his style, but you'll find a strong group of folks who think that his "wuxia anime" style is a sign of all the bad things that happened to D&D.

true

even though i am not a fan of heavily oversized weapons like what cloud wields

i have had characters that wield somewhat unusually large weapons looted from larger corpses, just not cloud size.

the original incarnation of Lumiere Dawnbringer was 5'1" and wore loose fitting billowing white garments, without armor, her weapon of choice, that she carried in her left hand, was a holy sabre designed as a hand and a half weapon for her deceased mentor, St. Eclair, whom was a 6'6" left handed female celestial blade dancer.

a celestial blade dancer, is akin to being a paladin, but they are focused on mobility, eschew armor, and focused on a fighting style that moves with the grace of a dancer and the precision of an assassin, whilst using momentum to great force.

now, both of them were pretty darn strong, but i find Lumiere Wielding St. Eclair's sword in her left hand, a lot more feasible than some of the Anime huge swords.

oh wait, hand and a half Sabre could easily be swapped for 'Katana' just as well. so it is no different than using a katana for someone sized a foot and a half taller than you. the extra reach, is a little akward, but one could grow accustomed to it.

and Lumi, required both excessive levels of strength, and of agility.

but Lumi wasn't human, she was a nymph of potent celestial heritage born from a beaker.

Liberty's Edge

In the first Conan movie, he looted his sword from the tomb of what appears to be a giant king. And he used it two-handed.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Gorbacz wrote:
The first time oversized weapons were featured prominently in the western gaming popculture was when FFVII made it big time. And since then they're associated with anime. If you show an average gamer a small guy wielding a big sword, 9/10 will quote Cloud Strife as the influence.

I think Warhammer did that already in the early 90s, before this Final Fantasy stuff (which I must admit I have never seen and I've never heard of Cloud Strife before this thread).


Read the Elric of Melnibone stories. He gets a buckler from a giant that is the size of his body....and uses it as a buckler. Not to mention it constantly mentions Stormbringer as a large broadsword that Elric almost always uses in one hand...(along with a giants buckler).

Silver Crusade

havoc xiii wrote:
Read the Elric of Melnibone stories. He gets a buckler from a giant that is the size of his body....and uses it as a buckler. Not to mention it constantly mentions Stormbringer as a large broadsword that Elric almost always uses in one hand...(along with a giants buckler).

OMG get your anime angsty pretty boys weilding giant swords out of my D&D-influencing fantasy literature that predates all that anime that uses that formula! ;)

Thank you so much for reminding me of that image. Keeping it on tap for any "genre purism" threads in the future and digging out some old Michael Whelan artbooks now. :)

FUN FACTS: Did you know that Yoshitaka Amano of Vampire Hunter D fame did artwork for the Japanese editions of the Elric novels before working as the lead artist for the Final Fantasy series?

====The More You Know===*

Edit: Also, for those ladies and gentlemen so inclined.

Seltyiel's spiritual lineage goes back quite a ways indeed.


havoc xiii wrote:
Read the Elric of Melnibone stories. He gets a buckler from a giant that is the size of his body....and uses it as a buckler. Not to mention it constantly mentions Stormbringer as a large broadsword that Elric almost always uses in one hand...(along with a giants buckler).

Yeah, but that was because of the sword. Elric himself was rather weak.

The Exchange

What do you expect when a solo-adventuring, low-level Witch suddenly lucks into finding a sentient unholy human-bane nine lives stealer? He dipped into Barbarian and never looked back!


My 1st look at Elric was from an old Heavy Metal mag that I got in a flea market or something when I was a kid- I must have been 12 or 13, so we're talking 1980 or so. I have no idea who did the art but it was awesome to see. As a nerdy little bookworm, it was a major influence in my view of fantasy artwork. Since then I've loved fantasy & sci-fi art. I have a Royo print up on the wall, and regularly troll Deviant Art for more great images & ideas for games. The weapon sizes change with artist style, as do things like the way the figures are portrayed (Frazetta anyone?) but that doesn't change my ability to admire the work, and take something away from the image that I can use, even if its just the tone or feeling of the piece. Reynolds work is stylistically fingerprinted, and I enjoy what he brings to the genre immensely. He delivers exactly what he should: a FANTASY picture. If I wanted realism I'd take up photography (and probably suck at that too).


Lumi was a freeform OC whom was part of a pair of twins

the other twin was a Shadow Nymph whom a lot of you should be highly familiar with.

the 2, i reiterate when i don't feel like making a new character at the time.

but in Umbriere's case, a gothic lolita dress is a highly impractical outfit for high profile assassination.

but you can blame anime for the twins.


Calex wrote:
My 1st look at Elric was from an old Heavy Metal mag that I got in a flea market or something when I was a kid- I must have been 12 or 13, so we're talking 1980 or so. I have no idea who did the art but it was awesome to see.

Frank Brunner illustrated an Elric story in Heavy Metal in '79. That's almost certainly who you're thinking of. Brunner's work on that piece almost got an Elric movie made on the strength of it.


Damon Griffin wrote:
Calex wrote:
My 1st look at Elric was from an old Heavy Metal mag that I got in a flea market or something when I was a kid- I must have been 12 or 13, so we're talking 1980 or so. I have no idea who did the art but it was awesome to see.
Frank Brunner illustrated an Elric story in Heavy Metal in '79. That's almost certainly who you're thinking of. Brunner's work on that piece almost got an Elric movie made on the strength of it.

Wow. You're awesome. I never expected to ever learn the artist's identity! I'm going to do some looking for more of the guys work, now that I have a name. thank you.

Sovereign Court

Gorbacz wrote:
...traditional western fantasy art that resonates with D&D gamers (read: Elmore, Easley, Otus and everybody else who did 0E-2E artwork) had "realistic" weapons, armor and proportions.

Yeah, totally realistic.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Nebelwerfer41 wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
...traditional western fantasy art that resonates with D&D gamers (read: Elmore, Easley, Otus and everybody else who did 0E-2E artwork) had "realistic" weapons, armor and proportions.
Yeah, totally realistic.

Which of those weapons do you have a problem with?

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