I'm playing the Shattered Star AP with a monk in a party of 7. At level 8, We have: Sorcerer; Rogue/SD; Ranger/Sorc/AA; Cleric; Paladin; Barbarian. We've not all been in at the same time since the first few sessions, but we've got 5-6 players in a session consistently, between the 8 of us.
1) Because it's a large flying creature, it could move even after I grappled it (I didn't expect it to be able to, looking at grapple RAW, but I'll take it).
2) Because it was flying at 120 ft/round (whatever that equates to in normal speed), I couldn't do anything but hold on for dear life. - I expected to at least be able to make another grapple check to do something (pin a wing, make an attack; effectively grapple my way around the creature). I'm also somewhat curious as to why 120 ft/round would be so debilitating when my monk has a 50 ft base speed, for 200 ft/round at a flat out run.
I haven't seen anything in the mechanics (and I am fairly familiar with the rules for grappling) that deal with this situation, and I'm curious about what you all think about how the situation was handled.
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I'm playing the Shattered Star AP with a monk in a party of 7. At level 8, We have: Sorcerer; Rogue/SD; Ranger/Sorc/AA; Cleric; Paladin; Barbarian. We've not all been in at the same time since the first few sessions, but we've got 5-6 players in a session consistently, between the 8 of us.
Spoiler:In our last session, while ascending a staircase to the top of a broken tower, we were attacked by three wyverns. I jumped from the staircase and grappled one of the wyverns, which then (to my surprise), flew up and out of the tower, and out over the wilderness we had barely explored, taking full-round move actions each round, going higher and further from the party. I maintained my grapple check, but my GM wouldn't allow me to even attempt a second grapple check to try and pin one of its wings, or even attack it (which wouldn't under normal circumstances require a grapple check). He said, when I asked:1) Because it's a large flying creature, it could move even after I grappled it (I didn't expect it to be able to, looking at grapple RAW, but I'll take it).
2) Because it was flying at 120 ft/round (whatever that equates to in normal speed), I couldn't do anything but hold on for dear life. - I expected to at least be able to make another grapple check to do something (pin a wing, make an attack; effectively grapple my way around the creature). I'm also somewhat curious as to why 120 ft/round would be so debilitating when my monk has a 50 ft base speed, for 200 ft/round at a flat out run.
I haven't seen anything in the mechanics (and I am fairly familiar with the rules for grappling) that deal with this situation, and I'm curious about what you all think about how the situation was handled.
I guess it depends on the type of game your GM is running and how he/she envisions it. If this were to happen in my game I'd take the cinematic route and allow the PC to grapple, fight, or even use handle animal or ride to try to take control of the beast. I would probably also make the PC roll against relatively high DC climb or dexterity checks to see if they are able to hold on and not fall off while doing those things.
Taishaku - That's what I was envisioning when I leapt off the stairs (a semi-impressive jump in and of itself). Not so much taming it, but grabbing it and (eventually) beating it to the ground.
I just read flyby attack; I don't understand how that would allow it to move while grappled? It reads like Spring Attack to me, but less clear (allowing an attack before and after movement, or just one attack in between movement..?)
Definitely not snatch; these were only large size, not huge, and the other two would've been crushing the rest of the party
I agree with Mergy. If it matters I'm also running SS currently.
Your GM does make a good point though. Size should matter eventually between grappler and grapplee. I just don't see it between a large and a (assumed) medium creature.
if it has fly by attack and grab it can so it.
read the wording of flyby attack, carefully.. ADDITIONAL standard action
Grappled says you can not move. It doesn't matter how many move actions you get in a turn you still can't physically move if you're grappled.
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Fly-by Attack does not allow a flying creature to move while grappled. The DM should have had the wyvern attempt to break free using its +16 grapple CMB to take control of the grapple. It would then have had the ability to move at half speed with a successful CM check.
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Benefit: When flying, the creature can take a move action and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.
ANOTHER standard action. not it's standard another standard.
grapple lets you move an opponent up to half your speed with a successful check. this allows 2 standard actions a round
Size should matter eventually between grappler and grapplee. I just don't see it between a large and a (assumed) medium creature.
Size grants a +2 bonus to CMB and CMD for grappling, per size category of difference. So that +2 difference doesn't mean a whole lot (medium to large), but +4 can be significant, and +6 means grappling the thing that is four times bigger than you is probably a bad idea.
The DM should have had the wyvern attempt to break free using its +16 grapple CMB to take control of the grapple.
I was half-expecting to fail the initial check and drop to the floor below, but the potential awesomeness couldn't be denied.
I'm almost positive the GM got pissed when everybody started cheering after I did it, and just wanted to "teach me a lesson." So the Wyvern "flies 120 feet up and out of the tower, moving out over the forest." Period. No discussion. F you I'm in charge.
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Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so. If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit.
CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifierCMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier
Determine Success: If your attack roll equals or exceeds the CMD of the target, your maneuver is a success and has the listed effect. Some maneuvers, such as bull rush, have varying levels of success depending on how much your attack roll exceeds the target's CMD. Rolling a natural 20 while attempting a combat maneuver is always a success (except when attempting to escape from bonds), while rolling a natural 1 is always a failure.
The only allowance for the Wyvern being large was built in to it's CMD. Once you successfully grappled it, it can't move. DM Fiat overrules all else, but it wasn't RAW.
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So the Wyvern "flies 120 feet up and out of the tower, moving out over the forest." Period. No discussion. F you I'm in charge.
He did not follow the rules for grapple. As the GM, that's his prerogative. Pointing out the rules rarely works in such cases. Good luck.
If I were playing your character, I would be annoyed with the GM's ruling on grapple. It states very clearly in the rules for grappling that, "Grappled creatures cannot move. . ."
Now, during play, with six people at the table, it is sometimes best to just play along. Now that the night has passed, and you're still playing a character who intends to use grappling as a strategy, I suggest that you privately and politely discuss grappling with your GM. Hopefully avoiding situations like this in the future.
Size grants a +2 bonus to CMB and CMD for grappling, per size category of difference. So that +2 difference doesn't mean a whole lot (medium to large), but +4 can be significant, and +6 means grappling the thing that is four times bigger than you is probably a bad idea.
Yeah but you would think a huge or gargantuan creature, at least, would be able to do something like fly even if a monk had a knee in some weird hold or somesuch.
The bonuses make sense. I just think other options should open up the greater the size disparity.
Yeah but you should think a huge or gargantuan creature, at least, would be able to do something like fly even if a monk had a knee in some weird hold or somesuch.
The bonuses make sense. I just think other options should open up the greater the size disparity.
Truf
privately and politely discuss grappling with your GM
I actually hadn't thought of that.... Much better idea than trying to make an appeal before god while all of his other supplicants are watching.
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I'm of two minds on this one. On the one hand, the rules do state that the wyvern should not have been able to fly while grappled. On the other hand, that's an asinine rule. Can't you just picture a wyvern (or dragon, hippogriff, whatever) flying away with a hero gripping it tightly around the neck? A better rule would be that if you are larger than the creature grappling you, you can move at half speed.
Anyway, the larger issue was that your GM violated the Rule of Awesome. I will chuck rules out the window if my PC's attempt something awesome like this. If I have a very strong reason not to permit the rules to break, or to break them in a way that disadvantages the PC's, I will tell the players that flat out and offer to let them try something else, but this I almost never do, because who cares about my plans? The Rule of Awesome should always prevail.
In your case, I would have said that by grappling the wyvern you had seized it tightly and it was now taking you on a perilous journey from which you might plunge to your death! And then I'd say that if you succeeded in making that grapple into a pin you would have fouled the wyvern's wing and set it to plummeting. And then I'd have awarded you a Hero Point for the coolness of the attack. If your PC survived, that is.
Note that I would have broken the rules as written, but I would have done it to enhance and encourage the awesome.
It's the GM's prerogative to alter the rules, and its the player's prerogative to find himself another GM if the present one is a wet blanket.
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I'm of two minds on this one. On the one hand, the rules do state that the wyvern should not have been able to fly while grappled. On the other hand, that's an asinine rule. Can't you just picture a wyvern (or dragon, hippogriff, whatever) flying away with a hero gripping it tightly around the neck? A better rule would be that if you are larger than the creature grappling you, you can move at half speed.
Can you picture an eagle flying away with a 20 pound weight on one wing?
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Well, I believe things should make sense so I’m normally alright making judgment calls like this or playing with others that do. However, in this case I have two problems. First, any time I make such a call I always allow the player(s) to change their action. This is only fair since they have a right to expect things to more or less follow RAW unless informed otherwise ahead of time. I’d like to have everything in house rules but that simply isn’t realistic. There will always be occasions that you didn’t think of so you have to be able to deal with them and move on.
Having said that, your GM seems confused. The way he envisions a wyvern isn’t accurate. First, a wyvern is only 8 feet tall, the other 8 feet is just tail, and it’s entirely possible to wrestle and pin someone that big, very difficult of course, but still possible, so you should definitely have been able to pin a wing and ground him or at least severely restrict its movement. Having it do nothing was not only a blatant disregard for RAW but also how things should have worked.
Second 120 feet per round is all of about 14 miles per hour… uh, yea that wouldn’t have impeded you at all, especially when you can move at nearly 23 miles per hour yourself.
So in any case, as a GM I’d probably have kept to the RAW on this one, though I may have said you couldn’t completely pin it. Still it wouldn’t have been going anywhere fast. Now having said that, as a player I’d have politely objected and give my reasons why and, if he still kept to his ruling which did not follow RAW and was not at all what I expected, asked to change my action. Then I’d have argued more after the game once I figured out things like its actual size and speed in hopes or reversing any future ruling to that effect.
How did the encounter end. Did the GM have a reason?
While I was making grapple checks to not die as the sole action available to me, the ranger/aa hopped on a pegasus he just got (summoned with a figurine), and flew as fast as possible to catch up. I failed my 6th grapple check (wasn't allowed a reflex save or anysuch to use an Immovable Rod I had on my person), and "Falling from 250 ft takes 3 seconds... You fall and take 25d6 damage.... Except wait the ranger is just close enough... He gets 3 perception checks, 3 ride checks and 2 reflex saves to catch you (Oh and you get one reflex save to land on the pegasus too). You both take enough damage to almost kill the two of you and the mount." The End.
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Gotta run for a bit. I'm really grateful for the fast and balanced responses I'm getting. I'm new to pathfinder, and this is an awesome community I'm seeing here.
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I really don't understand the GM's reasoning in this situation. Perhaps I could have considered it justified if it had been something like a Gargantuan or Colossal creature, but not just a Large one.
Even if the grapple wouldn't hinder its ability to fly (which it clearly does), it's especially difficult to see how the Wyvern could keep flying upwards at 120 ft per round, considering it's pretty poor at actual flight. It only has a Fly skill of +5, and without making a DC 20 Fly check it can at best fly up at half speed at a 45 degree angle.
Plus, there's certainly no basis for claiming that you couldn't deal damage to it or try to pin it. Sure, once you were hundreds of feet in the air, I could see the argument for "holding on for dear life", but it would take many, many rounds for the wyvern to get that high. Keeping the aforementioned half speed and 45 degree angle in mind, its altitude would only increase by 30 ft per round.
Ignoring that, as well, I think the wyvern's tactics weren't particularly sound, either. It should have attempted to take control of the grapple in order to conduct free rake attacks every round, or simply performed full attacks (the poison could be rather troublesome if you fail).
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So the GM needs to read his rulebook, or you guys need to have a discussion about house rules.
Fall damage is capped at 20d6.
Grappled opponents cannot move without taking control of the grapple.
You are fully able to take things out as a move action while maintaining a grapple. Standard action to maintain the grapple, and a move action to take out your immovable rod; there should have been no problem doing that as soon as you were flown out.
You grapple the wyvern, despite the size bonus to CMD that the wyvern has. You might have pinned a wing, or you might just have gotten a good hold of one of its claws. Either way, it can no longer move, and needs to make a DC 15 Fly check to hover. I'm having trouble finding the penalty for failing, but if it were to fail by 5 or more, the wyvern would plummet to the ground, along with your character.
A better rule would be that if you are larger than the creature grappling you, you can move at half speed.
Definitely agree with you there. That's why I didn't really argue against the movement. I didn't know a wyvern's base speed, and it still flying seemed reasonable enough to me that there would be some caveat in the rules for such a case.
After reviewing the rules for grapple later, I realized that, with there being no such caveat, even if it's allowed to move at full speed, there's no way that it simply gains control of the grapple to the point that I cannot make anything but a "hold on" check.
At this point, I'd opt for leaving this GM, if I had any other group to play with right now.
An interesting anecdote about the GM's take on playing Pathfinder:
These two play with another group they've known for some time, with a GM I don't know. They're complaining about something with that group, and when I ask what, they explain it as:
"(The Other GM) keeps allowing players to make characters that he knows my witch won't work with. I don't know why he's acting like this, just creating situations that are going to result in inter-party conflict. Especially with how long we've been friends."
This is just after the last session, in which my monk got pooped on for being awesome.
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Considering the spoiler, I wonder how your GM manages to consider "the other GM" the bad guy for, essentially, allowing non-human characters, when he is the one who has made a character that is unwilling to work alongside anyone that isn't human.
Especially considering that he apparently plays the same character in multiple campaigns. One would think one campaign would be sufficient to satisfy the concept, without needing to impose "all characters must be human, or there will be inter-party conflict" on a second campaign as well.
A better rule would be that if you are larger than the creature grappling you, you can move at half speed.
I agree with this, but actually have it written up to allow for some variance.
I use the creatures light load carrying capacity, modified by it's size and type, as per the carrying capacity rules. If the grappler weighs less than the creature's light load, the creature can move at half speed, but is considered "Heavily Encumbered" for penalties. If the grappler weighs less than the creatures passive light load (light load calculated at 5 strength less), than the creature can move at half speed but is now "Medium Encumbered" for penalties.
Further, under this system, if you effectively pin the larger creature, it moves the grapple up one category. So a passive capacity grapple moves up to the light load grapple, with the Heavily Encumburance penalties, and a light load grapple now moves up to the normal grapple rules. I further allow the grappler to now try to really pin the creature, each time moving up the scale with an additional pin attempt. So, the grappler can indeed eventually pin a larger creature, it just takes more successful grapple attempts.
True Shiz
I could understand writing the character in order to creat some interesting conflict within a party that could lead to unique relationships between characters and interesting (and sometimes difficult) dynamics in interactions, but to create a conflict-creating character and then demand a lack of conflict as a standard in the campaign is hypocrisy incarnate.
Here's how I would have run it.
1. After being grappled, the wyvern spins around with a started shriek and attempts to take control of the grapple as a standard action, pulling your character off its back and into its claws. It rolls 1d20+16 vs your monk's CMD. It cannot move this round, but beats its wings furiously to maintain its position (Fly DC 15 check to hover). If it fails, (something happens - the Fly rules are unclear, but I assume it drops by 10'). If it fails by 5 or more, it drops to the ground (in this case both would suffer falling damage, though I'd probably allow the wyvern to count for Slow Fall).
2. Monk's action. If the monk is still in control of the grapple, he gains a +5 bonus on grapple checks against the wyvern this round. To maintain the grapple, he must make a grapple check to do something (move, damage, pin, or tie up). If he's not in control of the grapple at the beginning of his action, he can make an attempt to gain control of the grapple.
3. Wyvern's action. If it is in control of the grapple, it gains a +5 bonus to the grapple roll and makes a grapple check as a standard action to move half its speed. If it's not in control of the grapple, it can make a CMB check to gain control. It could also make a full attack including a bite, which has the Grab ability, so it could in theory try and full attack then take over the grapple again with Grab, assuming that hits. All of those attacks would suffer the penalties for the Grappled condition, though.
I would drop him like a rock. (or a monk?)
Life is too short to put up with bad gaming.
Unfortunately, he provides our group with all of our source material. Books, gaming location, figs, dice, and for all the other players, a basis for the "rules."
Obviously some of those things are cheap (and/or free), but to get all of those resources adequately would be a significant investment in both time and money. To add to it, none of us (with the exception of the two GMs) know anybody else that plays (my experience comes from electronic D&D games and old friends).
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I could understand writing the character in order to creat some interesting conflict within a party that could lead to unique relationships between characters and interesting (and sometimes difficult) dynamics in interactions, but to create a conflict-creating character and then demand a lack of conflict as a standard in the campaign is hypocrisy incarnate.
I think you should respectfully step out of the game. I want to say you should point these things out to him, but I can't see him taking them as anything but personal attacks. You could try pointing out that it takes two to have a conflict, and that his character is as much of the problem as the other players. But I don't think his ego will allow him to accept that.
Bottom line, this is not a person I would hang out with at the table.
Unfortunately, he provides our group with all of our source material. Books, gaming location, figs, dice, and for all the other players, a basis for the "rules."
Obviously some of those things are cheap (and/or free), but to get all of those resources adequately would be a significant investment in both time and money. To add to it, none of us (with the exception of the two GMs) know anybody else that plays (my experience comes from electronic D&D games and old friends).
I've been an Army soldier for twelve years. I know what it is like to have to build and rebuild a gaming group. I feel ya.
Guessing from your user name that you are in Atlanta. (Or from it?) I think if you are willing to do the work, there are other people out there for you to find.
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You don't need to play with this guy. There are probably communities all over the place. Do you have transportation? Can you go to gaming shops? Shop around, put yourself out there. Other players/DMs won't take you off the market if they don't know you're on the market.
Also, dress nice, use some nice cologne. Don't stare too long at the cleava...wait, what were we talking about?
There's a few game shops around here, I'll check them out and see what they have for table-top news. Thanks guys, I'm sure I'll be able to meet some people to play with. I'll just have to be a bit covert so that I can keep this game going for a bit yet (my patience has yet to run its course).
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I will add that the grappling rules are an abstraction. You might grab onto the guy with a grapple check, but grappling means you guys are struggling with one another. This means the Wyvery admittedly wouldn't be in good condition to do much of anything without interferance.
That being said, visually, I like the idea of a hero wrestling a winged dragon thing down.
I admittedly play fast and loose sometimes though. Like having a guy leap onto the back of a giant cockroach and then grapple it in order to compel it into battle.
Course part of that comes from liking stuff like The Redeemer where the eponymous character succeeds in directing an undead spider god into battle by virtue of ramming his chainsword into its brain.
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I would drop him like a rock. (or a monk?)
Life is too short to put up with bad gaming.
Unfortunately, he provides our group with all of our source material. Books, gaming location, figs, dice, and for all the other players, a basis for the "rules."
Obviously some of those things are cheap (and/or free), but to get all of those resources adequately would be a significant investment in both time and money. To add to it, none of us (with the exception of the two GMs) know anybody else that plays (my experience comes from electronic D&D games and old friends).
The PRD is free online, and gives you all the rules you need. Minis are optional, but even still you can get a flip mat and make paper counters dirt cheap. Most Friendly Local Gaming Stores will let you use store space for gaming if you don't have room at your house. If not, then local libraries usually have meeting/study halls you can reserve. Both options are usually free. If you have a smartphone I can guarantee there is a dice roller app for it that is free to use.
If you are looking for players, then the FLGS can help you there too, or you can check the ENWorld LFG forums.
Nothing can sour you on the hobby like feeling stuck with a bad GM or group, and there will always be other options.
I cam here initially to point out all the rules your GM violated, but it seems like he clearly doesn't care. If I were you I'd probably tell him to go screw himself because that is not the way grappling or fall damage works. That being said...a few points.
Fall damage caps at 20d6. This represents "terminal velocity" in the game world. At that point you just don't fall any harder. I forget where, but there is an established fall speed, and I don't recall it being 250ft per 3 seconds, though I can't remember exactly what the number is. You should have been capable (as the monk) of grappling and then on the next round pinning the wyvern. It's only one size category larger than you. I thought I had remembered something about not being able to grapple things more than 1 size category larger but I couldn't find it, even if it where true its not the case in the instance. If you grapple the wyvern it must make a fly check our fall 10ft, one would assume it was already close to the ground since jumping vertically in Pathfinder (even for a monk) isn't easy. If you pin it, I would argue it cannot fly at all and you both take fall damage. When a creature is grappled it cannot move, you as the grappler can choose to move both of you up to half your movement per the rules. However, you can't move in air (without magical flight or some other special ability) so you can't move while in the air.
All said and done, you DM sounds like a douchecanoe.
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Unfortunately, he provides our group with all of our source material. Books, gaming location, figs, dice, and for all the other players, a basis for the "rules."
Not to mention he undoubtedly provides the ass out of which his rules are pulled.
I'm of two minds on this one. On the one hand, the rules do state that the wyvern should not have been able to fly while grappled. On the other hand, that's an asinine rule. Can't you just picture a wyvern (or dragon, hippogriff, whatever) flying away with a hero gripping it tightly around the neck? A better rule would be that if you are larger than the creature grappling you, you can move at half speed.
I absolutely disagree. If that's the case, why attempt to grapple something larger in the first place? It's just another way of saying "You can't be that heroic" when, really, it makes for some pretty cool action. Besides, with appropriate leverage, size can be overcome and grappling something larger is already harder because of the size modifiers - modifiers PF specifically reduced from 3.5's modifiers.
Spoiler:In our last session, while ascending a staircase to the top of a broken tower, we were attacked by three wyverns. I jumped from the staircase and grappled one of the wyverns, which then (to my surprise), flew up and out of the tower, and out over the wilderness we had barely explored, taking full-round move actions each round, going higher and further from the party. I maintained my grapple check, but my GM wouldn't allow me to even attempt a second grapple check to try and pin one of its wings, or even attack it (which wouldn't under normal circumstances require a grapple check). He said, when I asked:1) Because it's a large flying creature, it could move even after I grappled it (I didn't expect it to be able to, looking at grapple RAW, but I'll take it).
2) Because it was flying at 120 ft/round (whatever that equates to in normal speed), I couldn't do anything but hold on for dear life. - I expected to at least be able to make another grapple check to do something (pin a wing, make an attack; effectively grapple my way around the creature). I'm also somewhat curious as to why 120 ft/round would be so debilitating when my monk has a 50 ft base speed, for 200 ft/round at a flat out run.
I haven't seen anything in the mechanics (and I am fairly familiar with the rules for grappling) that deal with this situation, and I'm curious about what you all think about how the situation was handled.
I don't think very highly of the GM's decisions in this situation. Is he sleeping with the ranger's player? Because the resolution you posted in a follow-up sure looks like he's schmoozing someone. He makes it hard with lots of dice rolls, yet you all miraculously survive and the ranger looks like a freakin' god for coming to your aid.
For what it's worth, in a 3.5 game I ran a number of years ago, a situation came up with a monk and a wyvern. While protecting a column of refugees, the monk waited for the wyvern to swoop with a flyby attack with its stinger and got aboard. 3.5 was a little different from PF because there wasn't a single check (CMB vs CMD) to initiate the grapple. You had to make a touch attack to grab and then make a grapple check (grapple mod vs grapple mod). With the touch, I ruled the monk had grabbed on and was quickly taken on for a ride. He could have just held on, but he didn't want to be carried away so he started a grapple and won the check (stacked against him as it was - though he did have improved grapple which helped a lot). Since there's very little point in grappling just to hold on, I think restricting the creature's movement more than implied in the intent. So I ruled with the successful check, he had gotten a wing in a hold and the wyvern could no longer fly. So they plummeted to the ground - both taking damage. Then with the wyvern now within everyone else's reach, it didn't last long.
I'm not a big fan of The Rule of Cool. I won't say something succeeds just because the player thinks "It's kewl!" But I will think of how the proposed action fits within the fantasy action genre and assign reasonable chances of success based on the rules. And allowing a grapple of a larger creature to stop it in its tracks is entirely within genre, it's exactly handled by rules, and it has an easily determined chance of success. Had the monk failed, the wyvern would have continued stinging him as it flew around or until he dropped off and fell on his lonesome (possibly to his demise). But he didn't fail - he succeeded. And I adjudicated the results as appropriate based on the grapple rules and genre conventions.