So, tell us what happened, if anything did.
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HotLanta, I would recommend looking for Pathfinder Society play in your area. Not only are there a lot of great people playing, but I know several home groups that have come about as a result of people meeting at PFS.As a resident OF the Atlanta area, I second this. The Georgia Pathfinder Society is quite active and has events all around the area every month.
I'm highlighting this to mention that some people might not prefer organized play, but I want to say "dont dismiss it" if you play a couple times with PFS people, and say you're looking for an AP or home game, MANY PFS player's play home games as well, it's an excellent way to network :)
Oh yeah, and it's addictive and fun :)
I'm of two minds on this one. On the one hand, the rules do state that the wyvern should not have been able to fly while grappled. On the other hand, that's an asinine rule. Can't you just picture a wyvern (or dragon, hippogriff, whatever) flying away with a hero gripping it tightly around the neck? A better rule would be that if you are larger than the creature grappling you, you can move at half speed.Can you picture an eagle flying away with a 20 pound weight on one wing?
Can you picture an eagle flying away with a 4 pound rat hanging onto it's leg? :)
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Can you picture an eagle flying away with a 4 pound rat hanging onto it's leg? :)
Depends. Is that 4 pounds ten percent of the eagles body weight? (Not to mention the wyvern's Medium Load is 117lbs.)
But you bring my point right to the fore. Nothing was done to see where the character had grabbed the wyvern. No check to take control of the grapple (move him from the wing to the claws), no checks allowed to contest the grapple. Just straight fiat without cause.
After you played out every damn roll from Hawkeye, I somehow doubt you'd do what this GM did.
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Can you picture an eagle flying away with a 4 pound rat hanging onto it's leg? :)I'm of two minds on this one. On the one hand, the rules do state that the wyvern should not have been able to fly while grappled. On the other hand, that's an asinine rule. Can't you just picture a wyvern (or dragon, hippogriff, whatever) flying away with a hero gripping it tightly around the neck? A better rule would be that if you are larger than the creature grappling you, you can move at half speed.Can you picture an eagle flying away with a 20 pound weight on one wing?
Sure I can picture it.
Eagle
Small animal
Str 10
Carry capacity 33 lbs. or less|34–66 lbs.|67–100 lbs.
Fly +8
CMB –1; CMD 11
Melee 2 talons +3 (1d4), bite +3 (1d4)
Rat
Tiny animal
AC 14
hp 4 (1d8)
CMB +0; CMD 6
So, 20 pound weight? Oddly enough, sure, that's fine in the rules for an eagle to fly with. If a rat grappled an eagle, the eagle could full attack, and would more than likely land at least 1 attack, which has a pretty good chance of outright killing the rat. Even more so if it lands 2.
Can you picture an eagle flying away with a 4 pound rat hanging onto it's leg? :)Depends. Is that 4 pounds ten percent of the eagles body weight? (Not to mention the wyvern's Medium Load is 117lbs.)
But you bring my point right to the fore. Nothing was done to see where the character had grabbed the wyvern. No check to take control of the grapple (move him from the wing to the claws), no checks allowed to contest the grapple. Just straight fiat without cause.
After you played out every damn roll from Hawkeye, I somehow doubt you'd do what this GM did.
Oh, absolutely. I wasn't defending the GM in question. I was just pointing out that the Wyvern was just as likely to be a leg grapple as a wing grapple (one of my pet peeves about the system is the lack of specificity on hits and grapples for situations like this).
Just to be pedantic though... A Wyvern weighs 2000 lbs on average, making a man 10% of his weight.
A golden eagle weighs from 7 - 13 lbs (Male) to 9 - 17 lbs (Female). A bald eagle weighs from 9 - 15 lbs (Male) to 12 - 20 lbs (Female).
So, 10% of their weight is 0.7 to 1.7 lbs for a golden eagle, or 0.9 to 2.0 lbs for a bald eagle.
So, the more appropriate situation would be an eagle taking off with a rat around their leg (Average US Rat weighs 0.88 to 1.5 lbs). :)
Yeah, not seeing an issue physics wise with it. Just needs to do the right rolls to make the grapple be it's leg or neck or whatever. :)
...Can you picture an eagle flying away with a 20 pound weight on one wing?Can you picture an eagle flying away with a 4 pound rat hanging onto it's leg? :)Now, MDT, you're deliberately conflating TriOmegaZero's example of a grapple with one that suggests a creature that's merely holding on, not actively trying to prevent escape. The entire point of 'initiating a grapple' is to limit an opponent's movement: you wouldn't attempt to 'hold down' an animal by grabbing a random body part. You're going to try to lock up the most vital moving parts. I can grab a pig by the tail* or a rhinoceros by its nostrils**, but that's not an attempt to grapple or immobilize them. Since stopping movement is the point, you'd go for the body parts that allow movement; wings being an obvious favorite.
* Don't try this.
** Especially don't try this.
Wasn't conflating it at all. ToZ merely asked if an eagle could take off with a rat on his wing, I asked if he could with a rat on his ankle. To me, it's important where the grapple is. To me, it's a failure of the system to not have anything to do with where you're grappled. Especially based on size, say a small halfling trying to grapple a large dragon, he might not be able to reach a wing. :) And I never said the GM shouldn't go through all the rolls. But, just to show your point isn't the begin and end all, may I suggest you try to grapple a full grown giraffe? And it only counts if you grapple him around the neck so he can't eat my tree tops. :)
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I would pay to see someone grapple a giraffe.
True Story:
When I was 10-12 I visited Silver Springs. They had a safari area with giraffes walking around a large area with a 7 ft tall fence separating them from park visitors. I was carrying a large plastic bag of cotton candy when I was walking near the Giraffes. One of them walked to the edge of the fence, put their neck over the fence and bit the bag of candy I was holding, and raised their neck. I didn't let go, and was lifted a foot off the ground before the plastic bag ripped. The giraffe then ate the candy, bag and all.
TL;DR, The giraffe will win
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I would go with the movement rule:
If a creature is 3 or more sizes smaller than the creature it is grappling, the grappled creature can move at half speed.
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Offering my two cents here:
Your GM played fast and loose with the rules here, and the important question is, "Why?" Until you know the why, it's not likely that you'll be able to resolve the situation, so the first thing that you need to do is to ask your GM about it privately. I can see a few "reasons" for your GM making this call.
- "I'm just not that familiar with grapple rules. Sorry." If this is the case, then your GM should brush up, especially if you're going to be using them frequently. If your GM isn't a fan of the grapple rules, then I would hope that he would allow you to rebuild your character to avoid their use.
- "I think that the grapple rules do not accurately reflect how the mechanics should work." In this case, the GM should inform you how the grapple rules are going to play, and should have done so in advance. Hopefully, your GM will work with you to design more consistent and appropriate rules to use at your tabletop.
- "I hate the grapple rules. They suck, and you spoiled my plans." On the bright side, at least the GM had a plan... Perhaps it was to separate you from the rest of the party for some story-driven purpose. On the other hand, the GM was blatantly "cheating", and while story-driven purposes don't necessarily excuse that kind of behaviour, you can decide whether to overlook this in favour of the story or if it's an issue that needs to be addressed.
- "This way is more fun." Perhaps for your GM, but that's pure douchebaggery there. Your GM is allowed to have (and should be having) fun too, but not at the expense of the players (nor should the players have fun at the expense of the GM). If you cannot have fun together, then perhaps it's time to seek out a new GM.
I hope that you find adequate resolution to your problem. Best wishes!
Shouldn't size matter as much as strength? After all, Batman might not be able to grapple a dragon the size of Texas and keep it from flying, but I imagine Hulk or Superman would have an easier time of it.
Hulk and Superman both routinely break the laws of physics while performing their feats of strength. As Oops points out, at a certain point strength doesn't matter, leverage does.
I agree with Mergy. If it matters I'm also running SS currently.
Your GM does make a good point though. Size should matter eventually between grappler and grapplee. I just don't see it between a large and a (assumed) medium creature.
I would house-rule it and say that if a grappled creature is 3 size categories larger than the creature it is being grappled by, it can then still move while grappled. Of course, the creature wishing to move while grappled must still be strong enough to lift the smaller grappler, but STR usually isnt a problem for bigger creatures.
For example, if a medium sized fighter grapples a Gargantuan red dragon then the dragon is still grappled but can move.
This is a kludge. A man attempting to "grapple" a horse cannot prevent the horse from moving if the horse really wants to move. If you've ever ridden a horse, you know this to be true. Grab it around the neck, the torso, the legs... You're in for a bad time without some assistance or the knowhow on how to break a horse.
Still, the grapple rules aren't perfect.
Size should matter, yes, but not merely as a modifier to the rules. I think that they should be cleaner; more precise to handle this sort of issue in a more realistic manner. A wyvern should be able to be grappled, but it should be a wild ride and it should still be able to move (because you've either grappled its wings or you've grappled its legs). Anything of a larger size category than you should have some (or all) of its movement. Grappling the leg of a behemoth might not slow it down at all in the same way that a kitten grabbing on to your leg doesn't stop you from walking (or even slow you down).
Its not a case of STR. Its a matter of weight. You can have a fighter with a STR of 40 who has an absolute deathgrip on a dragon's leg, but that fighter still weighs about 300 pounds, so that gargantuan dragon can easily pick him up even though the fighter refuses to lose his grip (grapple).
Thanks, exactly my thoughts and the reasoning for how I do grappling vs larger creatures in the post I made above, =) What do you think of those if you have read them? Constructive criticism is always welcome! I also have a Strength Chart for Carrying Capacity made all the way out to 90 Strength (I run a mixed genre game we call Superpath also; superheroes pulled inot Golarion from a portal and trying to find their way home, so needed the higher Strength Chart).
But couldn't the 40 strength fighter break that Dragon's leg while holding on? Or, like, tear the skin/scales and rip at the meat and stuff?
Here is my post from above for ease of reference:
I use the creatures light load carrying capacity, modified by it's size and type, as per the carrying capacity rules. If the grappler weighs less than the creature's light load, the creature can move at half speed, but is considered "Heavily Encumbered" for penalties. If the grappler weighs less than the creatures passive light load (light load calculated at 5 strength less), than the creature can move at half speed but is now "Medium Encumbered" for penalties.
Further, under this system, if you effectively pin the larger creature, it moves the grapple up one category. So a passive capacity grapple moves up to the light load grapple, with the Heavily Encumburance penalties, and a light load grapple now moves up to the normal grapple rules. I further allow the grappler to now try to really pin the creature, each time moving up the scale with an additional pin attempt. So, the grappler can indeed eventually pin a larger creature, it just takes more successful grapple attempts.
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Not a precise synch, but a useful precedent to build a baseline house-rule around. Thanks, Tarantula.
Oh, and Imbicatus: I'll bet if I went to Silver Springs today they'd have a big sign on the pen saying Please Do Not Feed The Giraffes Cotton Candy, so thank you for that. I like to think there's a little icon of a giraffe suffering acute digestive distress on the sign too, but that may just be wishful thinking.
I didn't feed him, the thieving critter stole it! Serves him right. :)
@Lincoln Hills
So far, my house rules have basically been 'Hey, you're a halfling, you can't reach the huge dragon's wings, you want to grapple his tail or legs?' and that's been about it.
If I had to come up with a house rule, I like the one above about light load vs grappler's weight, but also adding in that if the grapplee's size in squares is greater than double your natural reach, you can only grapple the section you can reach (so, medium grappling large, no problem, grapple huge, you need to pick a 'corner' of the creature you can reach). Then, if you want to stop movement, you 'pin' the target to stop a mode of movement (like legs or wings) and then make a third one to pin them to the ground. So, halfling grappling huge dragon would grapple foot on the first attempt, then move to 'pin' the wings on his second grapple attempt, then move to 'pin' the dragon's snout to his wing tips, gaining full control. Why? Because it should be hard for a 14 str Halfling to pin a 24 str adult dragon. :) And when he succeeds, he should feel like he really accomplished something rather than rolling a 20 on the CMD attempt and holding the 8000 lb dragon by a toenail due to a lucky roll. :)
I didn't feed him, the thieving critter stole it! Serves him right. :)Not a precise synch, but a useful precedent to build a baseline house-rule around. Thanks, Tarantula.
Oh, and Imbicatus: I'll bet if I went to Silver Springs today they'd have a big sign on the pen saying Please Do Not Feed The Giraffes Cotton Candy, so thank you for that. I like to think there's a little icon of a giraffe suffering acute digestive distress on the sign too, but that may just be wishful thinking.
You still in the area? Because we could totally game sometime, if you are!
(I'm presuming the one you're talking about is in central Florida.)
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I didn't feed him, the thieving critter stole it! Serves him right. :)Not a precise synch, but a useful precedent to build a baseline house-rule around. Thanks, Tarantula.
Oh, and Imbicatus: I'll bet if I went to Silver Springs today they'd have a big sign on the pen saying Please Do Not Feed The Giraffes Cotton Candy, so thank you for that. I like to think there's a little icon of a giraffe suffering acute digestive distress on the sign too, but that may just be wishful thinking.
You still in the area? Because we could totally game sometime, if you are!
(I'm presuming the one you're talking about is in central Florida.)
I'm in the Orlando area now, grew up in Daytona Beach.
I'm in the Orlando area now, grew up in Daytona Beach.I didn't feed him, the thieving critter stole it! Serves him right. :)Not a precise synch, but a useful precedent to build a baseline house-rule around. Thanks, Tarantula.
Oh, and Imbicatus: I'll bet if I went to Silver Springs today they'd have a big sign on the pen saying Please Do Not Feed The Giraffes Cotton Candy, so thank you for that. I like to think there's a little icon of a giraffe suffering acute digestive distress on the sign too, but that may just be wishful thinking.
You still in the area? Because we could totally game sometime, if you are!
(I'm presuming the one you're talking about is in central Florida.)
I started in DeLand.
Some really good gamers in Daytona/Orlando....
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you can standard, move, another standard, then move again
Quick note - I made a thread HERE about this very topic. Please feel free to go there and click the FAQ button if you like :)
FYI, Jason Buhlman clarified that the Flyby Attack feat should NOT give the creature an additional standard action - that is an error. The creature still only gets one move action and one standard action - the feat simply allows the creature to take his standard action at any point during his move ...
I'm in the Orlando area now, grew up in Daytona Beach.
Ah. I know Daytona pretty well. We're actually over in Ocala, so, it'd be something like an hour (at best) for either of us to commute, and I don't know of anywhere really in between to meet, sadly.
EDIT: Anyway, when I go to Silver Springs, I'll check for a sign. :)
I started in DeLand.
Some really good gamers in Daytona/Orlando....
I started in Cocoa, FL.
You still in DeLand, Franko a? Because my brother in law and a number of other friends still live there.
I don't, actually.
But sigh. My quest for finding people here in Ocala continues unabated.
()
Still. Solo games are pretty fun, too. Not the same, mind you, but fun. :)
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I don't, actually.
But sigh. My quest for finding people here in Ocala continues unabated.
()Still. Solo games are pretty fun, too. Not the same, mind you, but fun. :)
It's Sci-Fi City, nowadays...I was there in the late 70s...when it was 1701. :)
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I'm playing the Shattered Star AP with a monk in a party of 7. At level 8, We have: Sorcerer; Rogue/SD; Ranger/Sorc/AA; Cleric; Paladin; Barbarian. We've not all been in at the same time since the first few sessions, but we've got 5-6 players in a session consistently, between the 8 of us.
** spoiler omitted **
I haven't seen anything in the mechanics (and I am fairly familiar with the rules for grappling) that deal with this situation, and I'm curious about what you all think about how the situation was handled.
Your GM is making things up. The flying thing I can understand even if the rules disagree, but not allowing you to make the 2nd grapple check makes it seem like he was caught off guard by what you did. If you made the first check you should have been able to make the 2nd one.
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I do. The store still exists, but in a different location and with a different name. It's Sci-Fi city now. I still visit occasionally, but it's not what it used to be.Orlando.
Not there, not for a long time, but I was...who remembers the old Enterprise 1701? :)
It's definitely a lot bigger...not as friendly?
It's definitely a lot bigger...not as friendly?I do. The store still exists, but in a different location and with a different name. It's Sci-Fi city now. I still visit occasionally, but it's not what it used to be.Orlando.
Not there, not for a long time, but I was...who remembers the old Enterprise 1701? :)
Ah... that saddens me. I remember that place from my Navy days, a looooonnnnnggggggggg time ago.
The issue is more than body weight percentage though. It's positioning. I can (and have) marched with a 100 lbs pack on. Hell, I've jogged with it. I wasn't happy, but it was possible. But if you strapped 100 lbs to my wrist, I'd be almost completely immobilized. If you put a 50 pound weight in my shoe, I probably couldn't move.
Which is entirely besides the point. You probably weight 150-300 lbs. So, 100 lbs tied to your wrist is 1/3 to 2/3 your weight. Let's assume 200 lbs, it's 1/2 your weight. I weight about 280, if you strapped 140lbs to my wrist you'd probably break my arm or wrench it out of the socket. If you strapped 1000 lbs to a wyvern's leg I have no issues with him not being able to fly or walk.
You state it's not about weight percentage but positioning, and then you throw out huge giant weights.
Let's try another weight. Let's try 20 lbs. Do you think you could walk while having four 5 lb lead bars strapped to your forearm? How about to your shin? I'm absolutely certain I could. I couldn't necessarily run, but I could hustle right along, and even jog for a short while before tiring out (con check). In fact, I routinely do this when I get home from the store (carrying in 5 or 6 bags of groceries in one hand at the same time).
I understand your argument about positioning, and I even pointed out that the system doesn't handle it at all, so not sure what point your trying to make.
And this isn't a pack, it's a person actively trying to stop me from moving. If a 40 lbs Gnome were trying to grapple me, I might be able to reverse the grapple and win, but there's no way I could ignore it and move normally, even though I'm 3 times his height and 6 times his weight.
No, but I have and you could to, move with a 20 lb 2 year old grappling your leg or arm. Heck, I have done so more than once. :) Usually I just pick them up and keep going. Most of my slow down is more to do with not wanting to hurt them.
And if that Gnome has 10 monk levels and is a focused grappler? I'm totally at his mercy. My only hope against a guy like that is not letting him grab me.
Which is handled by skill checks, but no matter how skillful you are, if you can't reach the wing 15 foot off the ground, because your 3.5 feet high, you shouldn't automatically grapple the wing, yes? It's a flaw in the system.
Have you ever held a 10 cat that didn't want to be picked up and it's method of getting away was squirming onto your shoulders and jumping? That can easily make somebody stumble.
Bad example. I own 3 Maine Coons, the smallest of which is 16 lbs, all muscle (well, Callie is a bit on the pudgy side but she's mean). I routinely manhandle them into their carriers when they don't want to go. I get clawed up, but they go to the vet even when they don't want to, and I guarantee they are not happy about it and are experts at escapes. :) You can ask ToZ about them, he's seen them. :)
Similarly, an eagle can pick up 20 lbs, I don't really think that would be too tough. Or a Wyvern could fly off with a human in their claws. But they aren't picking it up and positioning in your scenario, they are being tackled and the monk is controlling the action. There's really no good reason a human monk couldn't force a Wyvern to the ground.
An eagle doesn't weight 20 lbs, unless it's a hefty female bald eagle. And nobody ever said it should be able to. Again, you're talking about positioning but you use weights 13x the posited weight (1.5 lbs for the eagle).
Frankly, this GM has control issues. He's railroading this campaign and he's forcing another campaign to his character concept. Take comfort in the fact that everyone else in his other game is saying "I'm so sick of that stupid witch. My next character is going to be a dwarf, just to piss him off."
On this I'll actually tentatively agree. We don't have his side of it, so we don't know what is going on for sure. But yeah, the rules were bent. Never argued against that, said the rules have a flaw in them.
Edit: I lied about my implied weight :P
Your implied weight was 1000 lbs. That not a lie, that's out and out disconnect from reality. :)
I'm in the Orlando area now, grew up in Daytona Beach.Ah. I know Daytona pretty well. We're actually over in Ocala, so, it'd be something like an hour (at best) for either of us to commute, and I don't know of anywhere really in between to meet, sadly.
EDIT: Anyway, when I go to Silver Springs, I'll check for a sign. :)
I started in DeLand.
Some really good gamers in Daytona/Orlando....I started in Cocoa, FL.
You still in DeLand, Franko a? Because my brother in law and a number of other friends still live there.
Nope in Oklahoma city
I play at games hq. some nice people here.
And I used to go 1701 many years ago...
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Ah... that saddens me. I remember that place from my Navy days, a looooonnnnnggggggggg time ago.It's definitely a lot bigger...not as friendly?I do. The store still exists, but in a different location and with a different name. It's Sci-Fi city now. I still visit occasionally, but it's not what it used to be.Orlando.
Not there, not for a long time, but I was...who remembers the old Enterprise 1701? :)
When, precisely? My Navy days, too...'78-'79...
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you can standard, move, another standard, then move againQuick note - I made a thread HERE about this very topic. Please feel free to go there and click the FAQ button if you like :)
FYI, Jason Buhlman clarified that the Flyby Attack feat should NOT give the creature an additional standard action - that is an error. The creature still only gets one move action and one standard action - the feat simply allows the creature to take his standard action at any point during his move ...
then they should publish errata, not make people dredge forums
I know that's the RAI of the rule, but that's not what it says it does
Nobody in Columbus? T_T That makes me sad.
Nope in Oklahoma city
I play at games hq. some nice people here.
And I used to go 1701 many years ago...
Ah. Alas. :)
It's Sci-Fi City, nowadays...I was there in the late 70s...when it was 1701. :)
Huh. And here I was starting to feel like an old-school gamer. NOPE. Nevermind. (I wasn't born until '82.)