Post a level 8 PFS legal barbarian so we can compare real numbers
Here's a level 8 barbarian for comparison purposes. He's built with Superstitious/Spell Sunder for utility, and the first two Beast Totem powers so that he's set up to get pounce at level 10.
Sample Barbarian 8
Human Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager, Beast Totem) 8
CG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +11
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Defense
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AC 23, touch 10, flat-footed 22 (+9 armor, +1 Dex, +4 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 111 (8d12+50)
Fort +14, Ref +5, Will +7; +6 morale bonus vs. spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities but must resist all spells, even allies'
DR 4/—, 8/lethal; Resist fire 1, extreme endurance (fire)
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 Furious Greatsword +16/+11 (2d6+24/19-20/x2) and
. . Claw x2 (Beast Totem, Lesser) +8 x2 (1d6+7/x2) and
. . Masterwork Dagger +14/+9 (1d4+14/19-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Composite longbow (Str +10) +8/+3 (1d8+9/x3)
Special Attacks rage (21 rounds/day), rage powers (beast totem +3 ac, beast totem, lesser, spell sunder, strength surge +8 [1/rage], superstition +6, witch hunter [+3])
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Statistics
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Str 26, Dex 12, Con 22, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +8; CMB +16 (+18 Sundering); CMD 26 (28 vs. Sunder)
Feats Extra Rage Power, Extra Rage Power, Improved Sunder, Power Attack -3/+6, Raging Vitality
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +9, Climb +9, Craft (tattoo) +8, Escape Artist -2, Fly -2, Handle Animal +3, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (nature) +4, Perception +11, Ride +2, Stealth -2, Survival +5, Swim +9
Languages Common
SQ fast movement +10, heart of the fields +4 (craft [tattoo]) (1/day)
Combat Gear Oil of bless weapon, Potion of cure light wounds, Potion of enlarge person, Potion of protection from evil; Other Gear +3 Breastplate, +1 Composite longbow (Str +10), +1 Furious Greatsword, Arrow, durable (20), Masterwork Dagger, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of giant strength +2, Cloak of resistance +2, Ioun torch, Ring of protection +1, Misc. mundane gear, 22 GP
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Special Abilities
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Beast Totem +3 AC (Su) +3 Natural Armor while raging.
Beast Totem, Lesser (Su) Gain 2 d6 claw attacks while raging
Damage Reduction (4/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Damage Reduction (8/lethal) You have Damage Reduction against non-lethal damage
Damage Resistance, Fire (1) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Fire attacks.
Extreme Endurance (Fire) (Ex) At 3rd level, the invulnerable rager is inured to either hot or cold climate effects (choose one) as if using endure elements. In addition, the barbarian gains 1 point of fire or cold resistance for every three levels beyond 3rd. This ability
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Heart of the Fields +4 (Craft [tattoo]) (1/day) 1/day, ignore an effect that would make you fatigued or exhausted. +1/2 character level to the selected Craft or Profession skill.
Improved Sunder You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when sundering.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rage (21 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Raging Vitality +2 CON while raging, Rage does not end if you become unconscious.
Spell Sunder (Su) Once per rage, the barbarian can attempt to sunder an ongoing spell effect by succeeding at a combat maneuver check. For any effect other than one on a creature, the barbarian must make her combat maneuver check against a CMD of 15 plus the effect's
Strength Surge +8 (1/rage) (Ex) Once per rage, add the listed bonus to a STR check, CMB or CMD.
Superstition +6 (Ex) While raging, gain bonus to save vs magic, but must resist all spells, even allies'.
Witch Hunter (+3) (Ex) Bonus to damage spellcasters while raging
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Some critisim/questions on the builds provided.
1) Fighter is not using an archtype despite the fact that Barriche using fighter could benefit from them, while the monk is using one of the better archtypes. Then of coarse there is the fact that it's fighter in the first place.(Meaning that ranger/paladin/barbarian-trio is heads above said class) Naturally fighter level effectiveness could be the benchmark used.
Both the polearm master and phalanx soldier give up weapon training and armor training. No dualist gloves at higher level, no secondary weapon training at higher level, lower mobility and lower AC due to lower dex cap.
The phalanx soldier gains the ability to brace as an immediate action and the usage of the tower shield at a reduces ACP. He is wielding his polearm as a one-handed weapon: significantly reduced damage in exchange for higher AC. Not a bad exchange for a defensive build, but not what I was going for.
The polearm master gains a bonus on readied attacks, can shift grips as an immediate action and is more flexible in regards to flanking. Not worth what he is giving up.
2) Differences, I agree on the basic idea that you should build for comparison about the same build basics(Bardiche melee character in this case), but the fact that one is mounted and the other is not kind of defeat the purpose. This assumes the same basic fighting style was wanted, am I mistaken? If you wanted to compare mounted characters, look at paladin, ranger or cavalier.
Sohei receives class specific abilities regarding mounts. Fighter does not. Specifically, the Sohei build I posted can flurry while his mount is trampling as long as the mount moves 40' or less. This is an option not available to the fighter until much higher level and only with a significant feat investment.
3) Monks AC is wrong or all things are not mentioned in the statblock, AC comes 17 and with even assuming Mage armor it would be 21 not 23. So am I missing something or is it a typo/mistake?
Herolabs may have left something out of the statblock, but 23 is without mage armor. It is not the worst mistake in the statblock output. The big one is not showing the flurry with the bardiche.
4)Why is the fighter wasting it's point buy for INT 12? Monk is not human so 3+int vs 4+int so far but looking at the HP of the fighter it must have used favored class bonus to skills so they are equal then. So the INT could be 10 and the two builds would have same number of skill points. Why can't the fighter drop it's CHA to 7? If 5 is acceptable for monk it 7 should surely be for the fighter. This amounts for +4 points for the fighter.
Dropping CHA to 7 and INT to 10 would have raised STR and WIS by 1 point each. No benefit at the cost of reduced skills and social.
I was not making an effort to keep skills equal. I just believe in giving my fighters skills.
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Post a level 8 PFS legal barbarian so we can compare real numbersHere's a level 8 barbarian for comparison purposes. He's built with Superstitious/Spell Sunder for utility, and the first two Beast Totem powers so that he's set up to get pounce at level 10.
** spoiler omitted **...
Cool. I will take a look and try to generate a comparison during my lunch break.
So why are people comparing Sohei if people don't have a problem with Sohei? Shouldn't it be comparing vanilla fighter to Vanilla monk? If its a mounted build shouldn't the compared class be a mounted build? Personally, I don't think fighters are that great either, especially if your going to argue out of combat. It looked like Nicos's fighter got overlooked too.
Edit: I just realized... What's wrong with monks isn't about Sohei. When you think about monks, especially vanilla monk, is it an armored mounted warrior with a polearm?
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So why are people comparing Sohei if people don't have a problem with Sohei? Shouldn't it be comparing vanilla fighter to Vanilla monk? If its a mounted build shouldn't the compared class be a mounted build? Personally, I don't think fighters are that great either, especially if your going to argue out of combat. It looked like Nicos's fighter got overlooked too.
1. I already posted why I'm using an monk archetype opposed to a vanilla fighter, with a point by point breakdown. Simply put, I believe the vanilla fighter is more effective than the weapon specific archetypes.
It would hardly be fair to compare an offensive monk archetype to a defensive fighter archetype.
2. Feel free to post a cavalier build if you want to toss another class with mounted features in. The discussion is "can a monk hold his own vs other martial classes," not "monk is better than fighter."
with a point by point breakdown. Simply put, I believe the vanilla fighter is more effective than the weapon specific archetypes.
That's why your not using a Fighter archetype though. Not why your using a monk archetype is it? Or do you mean the monk is a weapon specific archetype and you think the vanilla fighter is better than him?
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with a point by point breakdown. Simply put, I believe the vanilla fighter is more effective than the weapon specific archetypes.That's why your not using a Fighter archetype though. Not why your using a monk archetype is it? Or do you mean the monk is a weapon specific archetype and you think the vanilla fighter is better than him?
I am using a monk archetype for the same reason I am not using a fighter archetype. System mastery means making the best choices using all available options.
The build I wanted was damage output with at least some versatility in other areas. Selections were made based on that criteria.
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I am using a monk archetype for the same reason I am not using a fighter archetype. System mastery means making the best choices using all available options.
It is like beating a dead horse cause nobody is arguing agaiinst the sohei.
I do have a complain however. The class description sells a kind of character, if the class mechanics can not deliver that concept I see it as a failure. Something is wrong if the only ways to make good monks is to make heavy armored mounted buidls or archers.
All of this. When someone wants to play the agile, unarmed, unarmored, "living weapon" martial artist, being told to play something else in order to be useful is more than a bit of a downer.
Many of us still want to play the character promised in the core monk's flavor. Being told "play a sohei/zen archer/BEEFMONK" in order to keep up and that the monk is okay because those specific variants work doesn't help us get there.
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DRP (assuming a full attack): APL +1 avg AC = 21
Bardiche Flurry +13/+13/+13/+8/+8
Sohei - Bardiche - lvl 8
3((22.5*.65)+(22.5*.65*.2)) + 2((22.5*.4)+(22.5*.4*.2) = 74.25
Average defenses(can increase; matches highest fighter build if using mage armor; highest AC if using mage armor+ki, highest touch AC, highest CMD, evasion, elemental resists, mount not included in damage; grants superior mobility outdoors, ineffective indoors. Can charge through teammates and difficult terrain. Has 10' reach + combat reflexes.
Iterative attack +19/+11
(29.5*.95)+(29.5*.95*.2)+(29.5*.55)+(29.95*.55*.2) = 53.1
AC par for course, slightly higher than baseline monk or barbarian, worse than fighter #2. Worst saves. 10' reach. Combat reflexes, Superior mobility and battlefield control once engaged in melee (following step + stand still). Lowest DPR.
Iterative Attack +18/+10
(26.5*.9)+(26.5*.9*.3)+(26.5*.5)+(26.5*.5*.3) = 59.26
Highest AC, saves roughly equal to monk, can lower AC to gain 10' reach. Higher DPR than fighter 1 and barbarian, immune to evil mind control, some battlefield control via step up.
Iterative +16/+11 2d6+24
+
Toe Claws +8(x2) +8 1d6+7
(31*.8)+(31*.8*.1)+(31*.55)+(31*.55*.1) = 46.035
+
2((10.5*.4)+(10.5*.4*.05)) = 9.665
=
55.7
Lowest AC, best saves vs spells, otherwise second worst. Highest HP by a large margin. DR effective against opponents with a large number of small attacks. Toe claws pull build out of being lowest DPR. Lowest CMD. Very difficult to heal (requires specific classes using limited class features.), Can sunder weapons and spells.
All four builds were roughly equal on skills.
If anybody wants to raise additional points, feel free. I would love to see alternate viewpoints.
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Well I did not spesify either of those archtypes. Two-handed Fighter would be my choice and Weaponmaster is not bad either. Armor trainings only good feature is no momement penalty wich can be taken care of via mithril(also raises the max dex bonus high enough).
Mithral does not negate the movement penalty of full plate armor.
Even with medium armor, the cost of mithral at this level range is not trivial.
Rigged set up is rigged. It only helps prove that the best monk isn't a monk if anything. Worse, its not a great setup for evaluating the monk as a whole if you use archetypes that change who he fundamentally is. Archetypes are great in that they allow variance and different ideas, but they're hardly a defense for problems that lie in the core of the class.
When I think of a monk I want to play of an unarmed character. I get told to play some sort of fighter or swordsage instead if I want unarmed, or an archetype that doesn't use fist, or just dip and get out.
Just because they are underpowered, doesn't mean you can't have fun playing them.
Oh I agree, but if I and some friends are on a touring holiday, and I am cycling while they all have Harley-Davidsons, it gets a bit tiring trying to keep up for me, and they may feel I am holding them back sometimes even if I am enjoying the holiday.
When someone wants to play the agile, unarmed, unarmored, "living weapon" martial artist, being told to play something else in order to be useful is more than a bit of a downer.
Many of us still want to play the character promised in the core monk's flavor. Being told "play a sohei/zen archer/BEEFMONK" in order to keep up and that the monk is okay because those specific variants work doesn't help us get there.
Pretty much this. The sohei is great at level 8, right in his "sweet spot". Try the comparison at level 3 for example and the sohei sucks donkey-balls compared to the other classes.
And why are we looking at the sohei? Everyone agrees the sohei is one of the better monk archetypes. No one has not argued that a few monk archetypes are pretty good, after all - they are. But here's the thing, they are not the monk that monk-lovers want to play, so the point proves precisely nothing.
Rigged set up is rigged. It only helps prove that the best monk isn't a monk if anything. Worse, its not a great setup for evaluating the monk as a whole if you use archetypes that change who he fundamentally is. Archetypes are great in that they allow variance and different ideas, but they're hardly a defense for problems that lie in the core of the class.
When I think of a monk I want to play of an unarmed character. I get told to play some sort of fighter or swordsage instead if I want unarmed, or an archetype that doesn't use fist, or just dip and get out.
Pretty much this. Nice set of numbers, Artanthos, but it actually just proves that the iconic unarmed class is better off armed, and that the core monk sucks by comparison to the archetypes.
Can you make a core monk that can perform? Or even a qinggong monk that can perform, as that is considered the new standard monk by some.
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Rigged set up is rigged. It only helps prove that the best monk isn't a monk if anything. Worse, its not a great setup for evaluating the monk as a whole if you use archetypes that change who he fundamentally is. Archetypes are great in that they allow variance and different ideas, but they're hardly a defense for problems that lie in the core of the class.
When I think of a monk I want to play of an unarmed character. I get told to play some sort of fighter or swordsage instead if I want unarmed, or an archetype that doesn't use fist, or just dip and get out.
So, all we have to do to demonstrate a class is under powered is remove any options or features that would contradict that opinion?
Sohei is not even the best choice for monk. Zen archer is better until very high level.
Zen archer out-feats the Fighter until 19.
His innate class abilities leave nearly all his mid and late game feat slots open for whatever you want.
Clustered shots hurts, but you can usually get a weapon buff to pierce DR. Like blunt arrows.
In melee, no problem. ZA can pew pew at 5 feet no problem.
Sunders suck for all archers.
Highest perception in the game.
It does not suck that much for switch-hitters. That was the point being made. They can fight without losing their bow to sunder.
Highest perception in the game?
I would hand that to a cleric, druid.
The monk can't get by on just wisdom unless every splatbook in the game is allowed. That means the cleric and druid will have a higher wisdom since it is their primary stat in most cases.
So, all we have to do to demonstrate a class is under powered is remove any options or features that would contradict that opinion?
Its fine, if everyone expected monks to flurry with polearms on mounts in heavy armor. Your not demonstrating the class, your demonstrating the sohei. Again, it only further proves peoples points about there being good monk archetypes but the monk being bad.
I'm not saying the sohei isn't a monk, but I'm saying its not anything like the monk advertises or what we can expect out of every other monk. People say repeatedly they're fine with Sohei and Zen Archer in the conversation, those are not the problem. The fact you have to go those archetypes to be a good monk, and give up what makes a monk a monk, is just proving the point over and over that the monk itself is awful.
A much better point to judge a class in level 7-8. This is the point where most classes start receiving their class defining abilities. It is also a point where martial and caster classes roughly equal out.
** spoiler omitted **...
Why does the fighter only have a 10 wisdom?
Knowing his will save is weak he should have a 12 to 14. That int is not need. The rest of the party can handle skills.
This event was done at a higher level (13) with a barbarian. The monk pulled even maybe 1 or 2 times, if that much. The rest of the time the party was better off choosing the barbarian.
You also chose an archetype that has already been given credit for being "decent", which only reinforces the fact that the monk is below standard barring certain archetypes.
Kudos for posting builds. But you still take one of the archetypes that people in the forum consider Ok. Why not a vanilla monk? you are using a vanilla fighter afther all.What the fighter archetypes give up is generally far better than what they gain. I choose the vanilla fighter because I believe it is the best choice.
If you have a better build, I invite you to post it. I don't claim to be the best, but I am willing to put things down in writing rather than debate the advantages and disadvantages of non-existent characters.
His point was that with this archetype most of us will agree with you so there won't be much of a debate.
So, all we have to do to demonstrate a class is under powered is remove any options or features that would contradict that opinion?
When the opinion is: "Core monks are underpowered, yes, although some archetypes are OK" then you don't disprove the opinion by using one of the archetypes that is agreed are OK, you reinforce the opinion by the fact that [b]the core monk is not an optimal choice[/i] as you yourself have stated.
You are basically saying loud and clear by this example that we are right, the core monk IS underpowered.
So why are people comparing Sohei if people don't have a problem with Sohei? Shouldn't it be comparing vanilla fighter to Vanilla monk? If its a mounted build shouldn't the compared class be a mounted build? Personally, I don't think fighters are that great either, especially if your going to argue out of combat. It looked like Nicos's fighter got overlooked too.1. I already posted why I'm using an monk archetype opposed to a vanilla fighter, with a point by point breakdown. Simply put, I believe the vanilla fighter is more effective than the weapon specific archetypes.
It would hardly be fair to compare an offensive monk archetype to a defensive fighter archetype.
2. Feel free to post a cavalier build if you want to toss another class with mounted features in. The discussion is "can a monk hold his own vs other martial classes," not "monk is better than fighter."
In case it was missed here is my 2nd post on this:
"1. Monks suck except for certain archetypes. You are using an achetype now."Just to be clear we are not asking you to make super-monk. We have said the same things in this thread the same things we say in EVERY monk thread. We are not saying it is impossible to build a decent monk.
WE are saying---->The monk sucks unless you take certain archetypes or multiclass, and then it can be decent, and "maybe" good.
--->So if your point is only to prove that a decent monk can be made then we already agree.<-----
If you are trying to say the class as a whole to include the base monk is decent then we disagree.
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The monk can't get by on just wisdom unless every splatbook in the game is allowed. That means the cleric and druid will have a higher wisdom since it is their primary stat in most cases.
The Zen Archer can. Wis to hit, Wis to buff AC, Wis to DCs. For a Zen Archer, Wisdom is the primary stat. Str should be 14 for a damage boost from Composite Bows. Dex is important for initiative and to really boost AC, but isn't needed for archery feats because Zen Archers get them for free without per-requisites. Con isn't needed as much because you aren't a front-liner.
This is from the APG, no splat books needed. Zens are also less likely to get sundered than other archers if they play smart. They can outrun any melee fighter holding a black metal weapon moving to engage them, and use hit an run tactics to whittle them down. If they cant run, they can blow some Ki points, and change the damage die of the arrows to unarmed, and thanks to perfect shot will likely get crits for massive damage that may kill the would-be sunder there.
This is all from the Archetype in the APG. No splatbooks needed.
+1 to Zen Archer I guess?
The monk can't get by on just wisdom unless every splatbook in the game is allowed. That means the cleric and druid will have a higher wisdom since it is their primary stat in most cases.The Zen Archer can. Wis to hit, Wis to buff AC, Wis to DCs. For a Zen Archer, Wisdom is the primary stat. Str should be 14 for a damage boost from Composite Bows. Dex is important for initiative and to really boost AC, but isn't needed for archery feats because Zen Archers get them for free without per-requisites. Con isn't needed as much because you aren't a front-liner.
This is from the APG, no splat books needed. Zens are also less likely to get sundered than other archers if they play smart. They can outrun any melee fighter holding a black metal weapon moving to engage them, and use hit an run tactics to whittle them down. If they cant run, they can blow some Ki points, and change the damage die of the arrows to unarmed, and thanks to perfect shot will likely get crits for massive damage that may kill the would-be sunder there.
This is all from the Archetype in the APG. No splatbooks needed.
He still won't have the highest perception check because there is a domain that grants half your class bonus to your perception check, and it can be taken by druids and clerics.
edit: This is also in the APG.
+1 to Zen Archer I guess?
No-one has complained the zen archer is weak, it's OK. I have pointed out that in some situations other archer builds can do more, but the ZA is solid.
It has also been remarked on that the sohei is good over level 6. Before then it's lacking.
The monk can't get by on just wisdom unless every splatbook in the game is allowed. That means the cleric and druid will have a higher wisdom since it is their primary stat in most cases.The Zen Archer can. Wis to hit, Wis to buff AC, Wis to DCs. For a Zen Archer, Wisdom is the primary stat. Str should be 14 for a damage boost from Composite Bows. Dex is important for initiative and to really boost AC, but isn't needed for archery feats because Zen Archers get them for free without per-requisites. Con isn't needed as much because you aren't a front-liner.
This is from the APG, no splat books needed. Zens are also less likely to get sundered than other archers if they play smart. They can outrun any melee fighter holding a black metal weapon moving to engage them, and use hit an run tactics to whittle them down. If they cant run, they can blow some Ki points, and change the damage die of the arrows to unarmed, and thanks to perfect shot will likely get crits for massive damage that may kill the would-be sunder there.
This is all from the Archetype in the APG. No splatbooks needed.
That hit and run tactic depends on an open area. Otherwise you can't assume it will work, and only one sunder attempt needs to succeed so killing the sunderer is nowhere near guaranteed. Otherwise a ranger could say the same thing with regard to the "keep away" idea.
The ranger would also do this without needing to go past the APG.
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I didn't say they had the best Perception, but they do have one of the highest ones in the game barring Domain powers. What I was saying is that Zen Archer fixes the problems with the Monk (MAD, Poor abilities, flurry not usable when moving) and makes them very competitive in the role of Archer when compared to Archers of any other class.
Zen Archer, Sohei, and other Archetype don't really help the main argument though, which is that core monks are a trap. The have conflicting abilities, and MAD issues leave them underpowered at 20 points, and unplayable at 15 point buy.
I didn't say they had the best Perception, but they do have one of the highest ones in the game barring Domain powers. What I was saying is that Zen Archer fixes the problems with the Monk (MAD, Poor abilities, flurry not usable when moving) and makes them very competitive in the role of Archer when compared to Archers of any other class.
Zen Archer, Sohei, and other Archetype don't really help the main argument though, which is that core monks are a trap. The have conflicting abilities, and MAD issues leave them underpowered at 20 points, and unplayable at 15 point buy.
The post you replied to was me countering someone that did say it. That is why I mentioned wisdom in the post you countered, so I just assumed that since you quoted me you were disagreeing with the base argument I was making.
Here is the exchange I am referring to.
The monk can't get by on just wisdom unless every splatbook in the game is allowed. That means the cleric and druid will have a higher wisdom since it is their primary stat in most cases.
..........
Highest perception in the game.
My main point was that if all three classes use wisdom, and most monks have to split their stat points, why the druid and cleric do not, then their wisdom will likely be higher, and with equal ranks in perception they will also have a higher perception check.
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My main point was that if all three classes use wisdom, and most monks have to split their stat points, why the druid and cleric do not, then their wisdom will likely be higher, and with equal ranks in perception they will also have a higher perception check.
NP, in the case of the core monk, you're right. I was just pointing out that the Zen Archer doesn't need to split stats like a Core monk does, because the Archetype has no reason to not focus stats on Wisdom the same way a divine caster does.
I didn't say they had the best Perception, but they do have one of the highest ones in the game barring Domain powers. What I was saying is that Zen Archer fixes the problems with the Monk (MAD, Poor abilities, flurry not usable when moving) and makes them very competitive in the role of Archer when compared to Archers of any other class.
Zen Archer, Sohei, and other Archetype don't really help the main argument though, which is that core monks are a trap. The have conflicting abilities, and MAD issues leave them underpowered at 20 points, and unplayable at 15 point buy.
Actually I struggled to stay relevant in a party with a pure core monk on a point buy equivelant (we rolled for stats) that would be obscene. Stats (before racial bonus) were 15/17/14/14/16/14...the DM was tight on gear, and that crippled me. I wanted to see if core monk really did suck if I stuck with it. It did. With hindsight dipping two levels of paladin and using qingong would have made for a much more playable monk.
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Okay, quick little thought-experiment monk here:
Let's say I'm an oni-spawn tiefling (+2 STR/WIS, -2 CHA) on a 20pt buy (such as PFS, but also fairly middle-of-the-road in home games, or so I hear).
Here's an idea:
STR 18 (16+2)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 09
WIS 16 (14+2)
CHA 05 (7-2)First level feat is Armor of the Pit for +2 natural armor. Take the Monk of the Four Winds archetype, replacing Stunning Fist with Elemental Fist, usable 1/level per day. Qinggong to taste.
First monk bonus feat will be Dodge, putting our AC at 18 even as we spring naked into the world at 1st level with no gear. Our Flurry is +3/+3 for 1d6+4 each. That seems very reasonable for first level.
As a starting point, how does this shape up? Would you use your neck slot for mighty fists or natural armor? Is it viable with the right subsequent feat selections?
This is pretty close to the PFS Monk I made (but never got the chance to play yet, so take what I say with a grain of salt). At least, it was the plan until I got an Oread boon from Mike Brock, so I had to change it to an Oread instead :D
Some general advice for what I think you need as a Monk in PFS: Use one of your traits for Dangerously Curious. Put ranks into UMD every level. Use your other trait for Accelerated Drinker. Buy a Cracked Purple Prism Ioun Stone ASAP. Use 2 PP for a Wand of Shield, UMDing it into your Ioun Stone if no one can cast it for you. Walk around with a Potion of Mage Armour in your hand (works very well if your a Drunken Master, then you can roleplay it as being a bottle of booze).
At mid-levels, at the start of combat, you can drink your Potion of Mage Armour as a move action, and use your standard to activate your Ioun Stone. +8 AC. And if you're a Drunken Master, getting Barkskin as a Qinggong Ki Power @ 4th level gets you more AC. (Works very well if you're a Drunken Master, and you can get a Flask of Endless Sake, which is PFS legal). This way you can focus on Strength without sacrificing your AC too much. Use your cash to upgrade your main weapon to the best you can afford. (which may or may not be a Temple Sword, depending on Race). You may also get away with dropping Str to 17 after racials, but only if you care about a few extra skill points.
As for a Neck slot, I would get an AoMF in case you need to do nonlethal, but otherwise wouldn't prioritize it. I'd also recommend Toughness, that d8 doesn't help a melee class too much.
Again, I haven't played my Monk in PFS, so take this all with a grain of salt.
EDIT: Jiggy, I loved your Cleric of Iomedae so much, that I used it as inspiration for when I was rebuilding my own Cleric. Hopefully I can repay you by providing some useful Monk suggestions. :)
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+1 to Z.A.
(who would also, due to high WIS would have a solid-to-very-good CMD vs maneuvers, sunder included)
EDIT: TAking into account that most monk, even vanilla monks, have the potentials to be Quinggongs I would be pleases if somebody show me a good unarmed Quinggong/whatever.
Init +2; Senses Perception +3
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Defense
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Unbuffed AC 21, touch 21, flat-footed 18 (+2 Dex, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 75 (9d8+27)
Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +9
Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune disease
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Offense
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Speed 60 ft.
Melee Constrict (Anaconda's coils) 2d6+6
. . Unarmed strike +12/+7 (2d6+6/x2)
Special Attacks ki strike, cold iron/silver, ki strike, magic
Spell-Like Abilities Barkskin (self only, 1 Ki), --------------------
Statistics
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Str 22 (+1 L4, +2 Anaconda Coil), Dex 14 (+1 L8), Con 14, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 7
Base Atk +6; CMB +17 (+27 Grappling); CMD 34 (36 vs. Bull Rush, 41 vs. Grapple, 36 vs. Reposition, 36 vs. Trip)
Feats Dodge, Final Embrace, Greater Grapple, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Snapping Turtle Clutch, Snapping Turtle Style +1, Stunning Fist (10/day) (DC 17), Stunning Pin
Traits Dangerously Curious
Skills Acrobatics +14 (+14 jump), +15 Perception, +14 Stealth (for giggles), +11 UMD
SQ ac bonus +6, break free +9, counter-grapple, fast movement (+30'), graceful grappler, inescapable grasp, ki defense, ki pool, maneuver training, monk vows (vow of silence [+1 ki], vow of truth [+1 ki]), purity of body, stunning fist (stun, fatigue, sicken), unarmed strike (2d6)
Combat Gear Anaconda's coils
b]Other Gear [/b]Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ioun stone (dusty rose prism +1 insight AC, +2 CMB/CMD), Monk's robe, Pauldrons of the serpent, Ring of protection +1, Wayfinder (Ioun Stone),
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Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +6 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Barkskin (self only, 1 Ki) (Sp) Self Only. Costs 1 ki point to activate.
Break Free +9 (Ex) At 5th level, a tetori adds his monk level on combat maneuver or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple. If a tetori fails a save against an effect that causes him to become entangled, paralyzed, slowed, or staggered, he may spend 1 point from
Counter-Grapple (Ex) At 4th level, a tetori wrestler may make an attack of opportunity against a creature attempting to grapple him. This ability does not allow the tetori to make an attack of opportunity against a creature with the Greater Grapple feat. At 6th level, he
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+30') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Final Embrace (-Choose-) Gain constrict and grab special attacks
Grab (Medium) (Final Embrace (-Choose-)) (Ex) You can start a grapple as a free action if you hit with the designated weapon.
Graceful Grappler (Ex) A tetori uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine CMB and CMD for grappling. At 4th level, he suffers no penalties on attack rolls, can make attacks of opportunity while grappling, and retains his Dexterity bonus to AC when
Greater Grapple Maintaining a grapple is a move action, allowing you to make 2 checks a round.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Inescapable Grasp (Su) At 9th level, a tetori can spend 1 point from his ki pool to suppress his opponents' freedom of movement and magical bonuses to Escape Artist or on checks to escape a grapple. At 13th level, this ability also duplicates the effect of {i
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Cold Iron/Silver (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as cold iron and silver to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Pauldrons of the serpent +2 to AC vs Attacks of Opportunity.
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Rapidd Grappler
Snapping Turtle Clutch Your shield bonus applies to your CMD and touch AC
Snapping Turtle Style +1 Gain +1 shield bonus to AC when at least one hand is free
Stunning Fist (10/day) (DC 17) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Stunning Pin Use Stunning Fist against pinned opponents
Unarmed Strike (2d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Vow of Silence (+1 Ki) The monk must speak no words and attempt to be quiet in his actions. Accidental noises and the sounds of battle (such as the sound of a fist or weapon striking an opponent) do not affect his vow, though most monks with this vow choose their weapons a
Vow of Truth (+1 Ki) The monk is not allowed to deliberately speak any lies, including bluffing, stating half-truths with the intent to deceive, exaggerating, telling white lies, and so on. This applies to all forms of communication. If presented with circumstances where
Wayfinder (empty)
AC 30
w/ Turtle Style, Mage Armor (via UMD and wand), Barkskin (qiggong)
+4 if using ki point
+6 if trigger AOO by provoking via movement
+6 if total defense
Grapple CMB: +27 pre-combat buffs
+29 if you swap out Headband of WIS for Gloves of Maneuver Master: Grapple (also, buy cracked purple Ioun Stone and put True Strike in it)
Grapple CMD: 41 vs grapple, high against others
Can make 3 grapple checks per turn, constrict 2d6+6 on every successful grapple check on creature equal or smaller in size. Can also trigger a grapple attempt on missed melee attack by foe via turtle style.
If use all 3 grapple checks in a turn to do damage (constrict + unarmed), 12d6+36. At L10, with pinning KO, can use all 3 checks in one turn to do 18d6+54 non-lethal. Buy a pot of enlarge person for 50 gp and you do 3d6+7 base damage...
At worst, you grapple a bigger foe and pin them so party can focus fire them down. At best, you grapple an equal-sized foe or two by yourself and destroy them.
Actually, at worst, you fight incorporeal creature and have to use back up weapon or drink elixir of spirit sight and act as high AC flank tank.
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If anybody wants to raise additional points, feel free. I would love to see alternate viewpoints.
For now I just want to point out that, with a polearm, step up and following steps are almost usseles for non- polearmmasters.
Step Up (Combat)
You can close the distance when a foe tries to move away.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: Whenever an adjacent foe attempts to take a 5-foot step away from you, you may also make a 5-foot step as an immediate action so long as you end up adjacent to the foe that triggered this ability. If you take this step, you cannot take a 5-foot step during your next turn. If you take an action to move during your next turn, subtract 5 feet from your total movement.
A valid point. I'll have to rethink what to do with those two feats. Perhaps Greater Weapon Focus and upgrade to using a Fauchard. It would put him ahead of the barbarian in DPR.
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Why exactly do you have 3 attacks at 13? I assume you're counting the ki attack but at level 8 you only have something like 6 rounds of that per day and you almost have to spend 1 on buffing your mount because any of the other characters on the list could 1 shot it definitely otherwise.
10 Ki per day. My mount, if I'm adjacent to him, automatically receives all ki powers as I use them. He also receives evasion and my monk bonus to AC.(HL did not include any of this in the stat block). I did not use the mount during my comparison other than as a footnote on mobility.
I'm really not concerned about somebody attacking the mount. As is, he has higher AC than the monk and barbarian before buffs and the vast majority of APL appropriate encounters are not going to deal any where near the damage these characters are. Given costs, the mount is about as disposable as the potions of mage armor.
If your not allowing the monk to use ki, we'll have to disallow the barbarian from using rage. Unless your are setting some arbitrary required value above the monks ki total and below the barbarians rage total. (The monk clocks in at 56.675 DPR without using ki, still higher than the raging barbarian).
Barbarians have 4+2xLvl+con in rage. Monks have 1/2xLvl+wisdom. Barbarians have much more rage than monks have wisdom. Ki is more like a pool of bonuses than the main class feature as far as I can tell. I wouldn't ban either from use because you do tend to spam both for the majority of the encounter in my experience.
Unrelated, how'd the parts about comparing to the Sohei monk not helping the monk get skimmed over.
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Pretty much this. The sohei is great at level 8, right in his "sweet spot". Try the comparison at level 3 for example and the sohei sucks donkey-balls compared to the other classes.
I picked level 8 for three reasons, none of which are class specific.
1. Levels 7 & 8 are where most classes get class defining abilities. (the sohei actually gets his at level 6)
2. Levels 7 & 8 are a point where martials and casters tend to draw even with each other in regards to effectiveness.
3. My play style in PFS. I switch to 1/2 xp at level 7. Level 8 means my character is exactly half way through his expected life span.
A great many builds have points where they are inferior to other classes.
Level 1 wizards tend to suck after the first or second encounter of the day. Assuming their spell are even capable of affecting their opponents. That same wizard a level 20 can play games with the gods.
Barbarians on the other hand are front loaded, receiving their class defining ability at level 1. They start out strong but are eventually surpassed in damage by the fighter.