They last as long as it takes for the DM to realise that to all intents and purposes he can just ignore the monk.They sit right beside the threads complaining about the monk being overpowered.
The overpowered monk thread tend to pop up whenever a DM realizes there is no effective way to damage a well built monk without wiping the rest of the party.
Not with the recent change allowing a single weapon to be used for flurry. That basically gives you TWF like a full martial class only investing in a single weapon.
For unarmed, I don't completely disagree, although the clarification about bonuses applying to DR and the price drop for AoMF helped.
That is not enough to make a difference with the monk being ignored.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Okay, quick little thought-experiment monk here:
Let's say I'm an oni-spawn tiefling (+2 STR/WIS, -2 CHA) on a 20pt buy (such as PFS, but also fairly middle-of-the-road in home games, or so I hear).
Here's an idea:
STR 18 (16+2)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 09
WIS 16 (14+2)
CHA 05 (7-2)
First level feat is Armor of the Pit for +2 natural armor. Take the Monk of the Four Winds archetype, replacing Stunning Fist with Elemental Fist, usable 1/level per day. Qinggong to taste.
First monk bonus feat will be Dodge, putting our AC at 18 even as we spring naked into the world at 1st level with no gear. Our Flurry is +3/+3 for 1d6+4 each. That seems very reasonable for first level.
As a starting point, how does this shape up? Would you use your neck slot for mighty fists or natural armor? Is it viable with the right subsequent feat selections?
So the big problem with Monks is that they are hard to build and play correctly....???
I reckon nobody has EVER seen a Cleric or Wizard with the wrong spell set prepped for the day.
Nobody ever saw a fighter with 1 weapon at a table.
Chaotic Stupid, anyone??
You can pretty much make a $#!tty character with any class/race combo, or have someone at the table who is high/drunk/stupid ruin any well built character.
But the monk is a terrible class, I guess.
You know that is not the common arugment being made. I have seen you in enough threads to know that unless you have simply forgotten. If so I can remind you.
PS: You were supposed to post another monk build in another thread IIRC, not to long ago. Where is it?
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Its always funny when GM's bring this up to me and i show them they don't know what they're talking about.
So your assuming the presence of specific classes expending limited class abilities to keep your superstitious barbarian alive.
Can I make the same assumptions when discussing the viability of monks?
Its always funny when GM's bring this up to me and i show them they don't know what they're talking about.So your assuming the presence of specific classes expending limited class abilities to keep your superstitious barbarian alive.
Can I make the same assumptions when discussing the viability of monks?
In my opinion we shouldn't for either...
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Okay, quick little thought-experiment monk here:
Let's say I'm an oni-spawn tiefling (+2 STR/WIS, -2 CHA) on a 20pt buy (such as PFS, but also fairly middle-of-the-road in home games, or so I hear).
Here's an idea:
STR 18 (16+2)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 09
WIS 16 (14+2)
CHA 05 (7-2)First level feat is Armor of the Pit for +2 natural armor. Take the Monk of the Four Winds archetype, replacing Stunning Fist with Elemental Fist, usable 1/level per day. Qinggong to taste.
First monk bonus feat will be Dodge, putting our AC at 18 even as we spring naked into the world at 1st level with no gear. Our Flurry is +3/+3 for 1d6+4 each. That seems very reasonable for first level.
As a starting point, how does this shape up? Would you use your neck slot for mighty fists or natural armor? Is it viable with the right subsequent feat selections?
AoMF
Qinggong can get Barkskin at 4th level.
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It wouldn't break the game to make the monk more user-friendly.
As is, it takes a disproportionate amount of system mastery to make your monks function properly AND resemble the actual concept you want to play.
I have no issue with different classes requiring different levels of system mastery to use effectively.
In my opinion we shouldn't for either...Its always funny when GM's bring this up to me and i show them they don't know what they're talking about.So your assuming the presence of specific classes expending limited class abilities to keep your superstitious barbarian alive.
Can I make the same assumptions when discussing the viability of monks?
I forgot the /sarcasm.
Okay, quick little thought-experiment monk here:
Let's say I'm an oni-spawn tiefling (+2 STR/WIS, -2 CHA) on a 20pt buy (such as PFS, but also fairly middle-of-the-road in home games, or so I hear).
Here's an idea:
STR 18 (16+2)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 09
WIS 16 (14+2)
CHA 05 (7-2)First level feat is Armor of the Pit for +2 natural armor. Take the Monk of the Four Winds archetype, replacing Stunning Fist with Elemental Fist, usable 1/level per day. Qinggong to taste.
First monk bonus feat will be Dodge, putting our AC at 18 even as we spring naked into the world at 1st level with no gear. Our Flurry is +3/+3 for 1d6+4 each. That seems very reasonable for first level.
As a starting point, how does this shape up? Would you use your neck slot for mighty fists or natural armor? Is it viable with the right subsequent feat selections?
Seems like a good start, but something occurred to me about Qinggong; can you use it to replace powers that other archetypes replace? Like for Monk of the Four Winds could you swap out Slow Time? RAW would seem no, but I was wondering if there any special FPS ruling.
Also AoMF definitely. As Artanthos said, you can get Barkskin if you really wanted to. Even without that option I'd go AoMF; offense is a better defense then defense most of the time.
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I have no issue with different classes requiring different levels of system mastery to use effectively.It wouldn't break the game to make the monk more user-friendly.
As is, it takes a disproportionate amount of system mastery to make your monks function properly AND resemble the actual concept you want to play.
I like things to be intuitive myself, or at least not counter intuitive.
Its always funny when GM's bring this up to me and i show them they don't know what they're talking about.So your assuming the presence of specific classes expending limited class abilities to keep your superstitious barbarian alive.
Can I make the same assumptions when discussing the viability of monks?
Most barbarians kill things fast enough that them needing a heal is not going to be an issue.
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I have no issue with different classes requiring different levels of system mastery to use effectively.It wouldn't break the game to make the monk more user-friendly.
As is, it takes a disproportionate amount of system mastery to make your monks function properly AND resemble the actual concept you want to play.
I have a lot of issues with it. Getting to play a mystical martial artist shouldn't be restricted to "expert mode", if that's what one wants to sell the current monk as.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Seems like a good start, but something occurred to me about Qinggong; can you use it to replace powers that other archetypes replace? Like for Monk of the Four Winds could you swap out Slow Time? RAW would seem no, but I was wondering if there any special FPS ruling.Okay, quick little thought-experiment monk here:
Let's say I'm an oni-spawn tiefling (+2 STR/WIS, -2 CHA) on a 20pt buy (such as PFS, but also fairly middle-of-the-road in home games, or so I hear).
Here's an idea:
STR 18 (16+2)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 09
WIS 16 (14+2)
CHA 05 (7-2)First level feat is Armor of the Pit for +2 natural armor. Take the Monk of the Four Winds archetype, replacing Stunning Fist with Elemental Fist, usable 1/level per day. Qinggong to taste.
First monk bonus feat will be Dodge, putting our AC at 18 even as we spring naked into the world at 1st level with no gear. Our Flurry is +3/+3 for 1d6+4 each. That seems very reasonable for first level.
As a starting point, how does this shape up? Would you use your neck slot for mighty fists or natural armor? Is it viable with the right subsequent feat selections?
There's a FAQ about it. Can't use Qinggong to gain back things that another archetype trades away.
So you think the starter build I posted is a viable start, eh? Would you go unarmed or weapon?
There's a FAQ about it. Can't use Qinggong to gain back things that another archetype trades away.So you think the starter build I posted is a viable start, eh? Would you go unarmed or weapon?
About as viable as a level 1 build can be :p. I assumed the weapon decision was already made in favor of Dragon Style.
One thing I had considered for a Tiefling Monk was to take Maw or Claw for the two claw attacks, the feat that lets your natural weapons count as unarmed strikes, and MoMS; I was also under the impression there were a few traits that gave a bite attack, though I could be wrong as I never used traits as a default character building step so I'm not terribly familiar with most of them. Ideally I was thinking it could work out to three attacks all at full BAB and then you add style feats on top of them.
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I have no issue with different classes requiring different levels of system mastery to use effectively.It wouldn't break the game to make the monk more user-friendly.
As is, it takes a disproportionate amount of system mastery to make your monks function properly AND resemble the actual concept you want to play.
In the case of the monk, it's not a case that with enough system mastery you can make an awesome monk. It's a case that with enough system mastery you can make a monk that does not suck and can perform at least a few of his actual role functions.
My own frustration with playing a monk came down not to having made the wrong decisions, but in that there were no right decisions. I kept ending up in situations where no matter what I did, no matter what build choices I made, I still couldn't function effectively in a situation where every other character had options that could work.
Good God, this.I like things to be intuitive myself, or at least not counter intuitive.
Absolutely.
It wouldn't break the game to make the monk more user-friendly.
As is, it takes a disproportionate amount of system mastery to make your monks function properly AND resemble the actual concept you want to play.
I have no issue with different classes requiring different levels of system mastery to use effectively.
.In this thread you are saying that YOU have the system mastery to make great monks. That would be great, If I am making a mistake building monks and you can show me how to do it I would apreciate that.
But so far you still have to show us how an expert do it.
Don't hold your breath. He will come back with one of the good monk archetypes or a multiclassed monk if it is able to hold its own. If he tries to use the core monk even with feats that are not core the monk will suffer. It will either be good at defense or offense, but not really decent at both. At best I am expecting for it to shine in corner case situations.
Most of the problems with monks can be easily demonstrated by lining up an equal number of orc warriors and 1st level PC monks. It's rather jarring that the monk has a greater shot at being one-shotted than the orc, for most builds.
Zen Archer; flurry with a bow FTW
Sohei; requires 6 levels of sucking before you can flurry with a bow, Zen Archer's slightly weaker baby brother
Quinggong; crappy list of options, has a few amazing gems, like restoration without a material component, making removing negative levels or ability drain easier and ki leech, which helps the Ki problem.
Martial Artist; able to blatantly ignore DR as a swift action at 4th level with a tacked on bonus to hit.
Tetori; so many pieces of utility to assist grappling
Flowing Monk; a support archetype that cares less about damage
Sacred Mountain; free toughness, gain DR
Ironskin Monk; hobgoblin exclusive without DM permission, actually loses nearly nothing from wearing armor.
Master of Many styles; usually a 2 level dip to acquire style feats without meeting requirements. works better for multiclassed nonmonk characters.
Sensei; inspire courage with a wis base helps alleviate a 3/4 bab a little. not a proper bard substitute, but the fighter will still thank you for inspire courage
Drunken Master; Infinite Ki, lotsa damage
Hungry Ghost; weaker version of drunken master with more conserved encumbrance
Monk of the 4 winds. elemental stuff
The sad thing is that the archetypes look good only because we compare them to the core monk. Look at anything else that does that role and they are underwhelming.
Look at the Zen Archer - great at archery, right? OK what else can he do...not that much actually. Now look at other archer builds:
Zen Archer - is a great archer.
Fighter - is a great archer, and has enough feats to be a switch-hitter, so is pretty good in melee as well as archery.
Paladin - smite at range, acts as healer, casts spells.
Ranger - a great archer, has spells, has animal companion, has more skills.
Not all of them are quite as good at archery as the Zen Archer, but all can so do much more in other arenas.
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Fighter - is a great archer, and has enough feats to be a switch-hitter, so is pretty good in melee as well as archery.
Zen Archer can shoot from melee without penalty, therefore doesn't need to switch hit. Before they get that ability, they still threaten with an Unarmed Strike melee while using a bow, can switch hit in a pinch even then.
Paladin - smite at range, acts as healer, casts spells.
Zen Archer can use Stunning Fist from range (Using a feat to pick it back up after losing it as a class feature and a Ki Focus Bow), and can mix in some Qinggong abilities to self-buff.
Ranger - a great archer, has spells, has animal companion, has more skills.
Again, the Zen Archer can mix in Qinggong abilities to cover weak spots, and will have better damage and saves.
While all these builds can do more in other areas, none of them will be able to change the damage die of a bow to a monk's unarmed damage, get Flurry with a Bow, Weapon Specialization with a bow, and ignore total cover. And they can do this while retaining the Fast Movement and several of the class abilities that give the monk flavor.
Zen Archer can shoot from melee without penalty, therefore doesn't need to switch hit. Before they get that ability, they still threaten with an Unarmed Strike melee while using a bow, can switch hit in a pinch even then.
Fighter - is a great archer, and has enough feats to be a switch-hitter, so is pretty good in melee as well as archery.
a fighter with a cestus or spiked gauntlet can threaten melee while still being able to fire a bow. there is also a feat that lets the
fighter do the same thing, this thing called the 5-foot stepand oh, clustered shots isn't on your bonus feat list,
it is however, on the fighter's
Zen Archer can use Stunning Fist from range (Using a feat to pick it back up after losing it as a class feature and a Ki Focus Bow), and can mix in some Qinggong abilities to self-buff.
Paladin - smite at range, acts as healer, casts spells.
stunning fist as a feat requires a BAB of +8. monk isn't getting it back till 11th level. the DC, is still a joke, because it not only requires an easy fortitude save, but because just about everything has a fairly decent fortitude unless it deliberately dumped constitution, where then it is now also a joke
self buffing requires expenditure of limited precious ki, which are nearly as limited a resource as 8th level spells, and provide nowhere near the same benefit.
monks also can't swift action heal followed by a full attack
nor do they have a lot of hit points either
Ranger - a great archer, has spells, has animal companion, has more skills.
Again, the Zen Archer can mix in Qinggong abilities to cover weak spots, and will have better damage and saves.
While all these builds can do more in other areas, none of them will be able to change the damage die of a bow to a monk's unarmed damage, get Flurry with a Bow, Weapon Specialization with a bow, and ignore total cover. And they can do this while retaining the Fast Movement and several of the class abilities that give the monk flavor.
ignoring total cover? there is probably a splatbook weapon enchantment or feat tax for that.
flurry is no different from using rapid shot and many shot.
the base damage of the bow is irrelevant compared to the static bonuses you apply
and the monk doesn't have many static bonuses
Fighter - is a great archer, and has enough feats to be a switch-hitter, so is pretty good in melee as well as archery.Zen Archer can shoot from melee without penalty, therefore doesn't need to switch hit. Before they get that ability, they still threaten with an Unarmed Strike melee while using a bow, can switch hit in a pinch even then.
Zen Archer can use Stunning Fist from range (Using a feat to pick it back up after losing it as a class feature and a Ki Focus Bow), and can mix in some Qinggong abilities to self-buff.
Paladin - smite at range, acts as healer, casts spells.
A paladin's smite, a fighter's weapon training, or a ranger's favoured enemy bonus don't need to pick up a weapon feature and an extra feat to function through a bow. Paladins and rangers self-buff way better than a quingong monk. Stunning fist is "meh" as combat abilities go - it's rare that it works well if it works at all.
Oh, and paladin also gets better saves than the zen archer.
Again, the Zen Archer can mix in Qinggong abilities to cover weak spots, and will have better damage and saves.
Ranger - a great archer, has spells, has animal companion, has more skills.
One better save, and hunter's howl means the ranger will out-hit and out-damage him by applying favoured enemy bonus to whatever he is shooting at if it isn't his favoured enemy. Quingong abilities don't match spells and an animal companion, which can get between a ranger and an attacker and both the companion and he can keep attacking them.
Fighter can mix in melee combat almost as effectively as at range, while the Zen Archer loses his flurry-of-Blows in melee and is using unarmed strike which isn't that good a weapon.
While all these builds can do more in other areas, none of them will be able to change the damage die of a bow to a monk's unarmed damage, get Flurry with a Bow, Weapon Specialization with a bow, and ignore total cover. And they can do this while retaining the Fast Movement and several of the class abilities that give the monk flavor.
Yes, but even if they score better as archers (which they don't always once you factor in smites, favoured enemies, weapon training et al.), the other classes still get to do more things better. The monk's mobility is nice, but mobility is not actually that important to an archer build.
In other words, the Zen Archer is OK. It's not brilliant, it's good at archery, but it can't do as much in non-archery as the other archers, who are in some situations better than the Zen Archer even at archery.
It is still amusing when the superstitious barbarian realizes he cannot accept heals. It is a self-correcting problem.Superstitious is so good that I roleplay making saves against everything.
It makes it much more fun to save against the puny cleric's dc 13 channel with my +24 will save.
Not accepting heals is fine, you still heal for half. I trade that for not dying to the many many many save or suck/die spells
the only thing you need to save against is spells
channel is a supernatural ability and thus does require you to save
nor does the healing hex
the only thing you need to save against is spells
Yes, which is why I said "I roleplay superstitious to save against everything"
which makes getting healed more difficult.
because the few things that heal you needn't save against, are a great buff to your survivability.
having halved healing is dangerous in combat
even if you laugh off the save or dies.
Zen archer out-feats the Fighter until 19.
His innate class abilities leave nearly all his mid and late game feat slots open for whatever you want.
Clustered shots hurts, but you can usually get a weapon buff to pierce DR. Like blunt arrows.
In melee, no problem. ZA can pew pew at 5 feet no problem.
Sunders suck for all archers.
Highest perception in the game.
What are those good archetypes?Zen Archers take advantage of the overwhelming superiority of ranged combat.
Maneuver Masters have done very well at debilitating enemies so they cannot harm the party.
Masters of Many Styles are good with the right choices as Crane Style can make you an excellent blocker.
The last two have trouble actually finishing a fight without someone else to deal the damage for them however.
I second the Master of Many styles. But mostly because you can make a build that is a 'not monk'. I mostly look to it for a 2 level dip for a duelist style character that doesn't need to be DEX focused. With the loss of flurry of blows, and the bonuses to speed and AC being zilch at low levels, I can just forget Wisdom entirely and wear a set of leather (0 armor check penalty). I'd easily be mistaken for a rogue just based off of equipment if I chose to use of of their few weapon proficiencies (since unarmed strike without the ki ability might not end well without a lot of planning). Stat wise in a point buy, I can look like a fighter afraid of dump stats without a problem. With Crane Style... I might be able to compete with the party fighter in AC if they aren't sword and board. But after all that, am I really playing a 'monk?'
The Brothers of the Seal prestige class for monks might be worth mention too though. Besides the abilities of a core only level 1 monk, it only requires 5 ranks knowledge arcane. It continues most of the offensive abilities of the monk, although it doesn't do so for the AC bonus. Besides a few rogue like features, the main draw is that the monk's unarmed strike is treated like he was one size larger (is that 4d8 at level 20? Sorry, few tables handle these numbers). They can also use the Awesome blow maneuver, but I cannot say how effective a re-positioning might be. I bring this prestige class up since it might exemplify some of the draws and problems of monks: cinematic abilities and abilities that look good by themselves, but might have problems in practice. Still....an enlarged Brother of the Seal doing a flurry of blows is at least impressive in how many dice they would end up rolling. It makes the comparison between static and random damage a bit murky.
Fighter can mix in melee combat almost as effectively as at range, while the Zen Archer loses his flurry-of-Blows in melee and is using unarmed strike which isn't that good a weapon.TO be fair Zen archers have almost no need to go melee. The same goes for fighters afther point blank master.
This is true, but having the option is nice.
I second the Master of Many styles. But mostly because you can make a build that is a 'not monk'. I mostly look to it for a 2 level dip for a duelist style character that doesn't need to be DEX focused. With the loss of flurry of blows, and the bonuses to speed and AC being zilch at low levels, I can just forget Wisdom entirely and wear a set of leather (0 armor check penalty). I'd easily be mistaken for a rogue just based off of equipment if I chose to use of of their few weapon proficiencies (since unarmed strike without the ki ability might not end well without a lot of planning). Stat wise in a point buy, I can look like a fighter afraid of dump stats without a problem. With Crane Style... I might be able to compete with the party fighter in AC if they aren't sword and board. But after all that, am I really playing a 'monk?'
Exactly.
The only way to be a decent monk is to not be a monk.
He realized Monks were underpowered, got sad, and left.
In short, the reason why everyone says that monks are underpowered...is because they are.
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Just for fun, I built a monk. Now, it's been a while since I built one...I'd like him critiqued. He's 20 points, should be PFS legal...a half-orc drunken master. Tons of flavor.
Sorch the Sot:
Male Half-Orc monk 8
LG medium humanoid (orc, human)
Init +6; Senses Darkvision (60 ft.), Perception +15,
Languages Common, Orc
AC 22, touch 20, flat-footed 20
hp 56 (8HD)
Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +10
Defensive Abilities Evasion,
Speed 50 ft. (10 squares), Fast Movement, High Jump, Slow Fall
Melee flail +1 (heavy) (two handed) +12/+7 ((two handed) 1d10+8/19-20)
Melee masterwork aklys (medium) +12/+7 (1d8+5)
Ranged masterwork aklys (medium/thrown) +9/+4 (1d8+5)
Ranged shuriken +8/+3 (1d2+5)
Melee flurry of blows +11/+11/+11/+6 (1d10+5)
Face 5 ft. Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +6; CMB +13 (+15 bullrush) (+17 grapple); CMD 33 (35 vs bullrush) (35 vs grapple)
Atk Options Improved Bull Rush, Improved Grapple, Stunning Fist, Ki Pool,
Special Actions Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist, Abilities Str 20, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 8
Special Qualities AC Bonus, Chain Fighter, Darkvision, Drunken Ki, Drunken Strength, Fast Movement, High Jump, Maneuver Training, Orc Blood, Orc Ferocity, Scavenger, Slow Fall, Wholeness of Body,
Feats Defensive Combat Training, Deflect Arrows, Greater Grapple, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Scorpion Style, Stunning Fist
Skills Acrobatics +18, Acrobatics (Jump) +34, Bluff -1, Climb +10, Diplomacy -1, Disguise -1, Escape Artist +7, Fly +2, Heal +4, Intimidate -1, Perception +15, Perform (Untrained) -1, Ride +2, Sense Motive +4, Sleight of Hand +10, Stealth +18, Survival +4, Swim +5,
Possessions amulet of natural armor +2; headband of inspired wisdom +2; flail +1 (heavy); ring of protection +2; belt of giant strength +2; cloak of elvenkind; boots of elvenkind; masterwork aklys (medium); shuriken (x6); flurry of blows; AC Bonus (Ex) When unarmored and unencumbered, you add +4 to your AC and your CMD. In addition, you gain a +2 bonus to AC and CMD. These bonuses apply even against touch attacks or when you are flat-footed. You lose these bonuses when you are immobilized or helpless, when you wear any armor, when you carry a shield, or when you carry a medium or heavy load.
Bullied You were bullied often as a child, and you are now constantly ready to defend yourself with your fists when an enemy comes near. You gain a +1 trait bonus on attacks of opportunity attack rolls made with unarmed strikes. Note that this trait does not grant the ability to make attacks of opportunity with your unarmed strikes.
Chain Fighter Some half-orcs have escaped from slavery and reforged the chains of their imprisonment into deadly weapons. Half-orcs with this racial trait are proficient with flails and heavy flails, and treat dire flails and spiked chains as martial weapons. This trait replaces the weapon familiarity racial trait.
Child of the Streets You grew up on the streets of a large city, and as a result you have developed a knack for picking pockets and hiding small objects on your person. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Sleight of Hand checks, and Sleight of Hand is always a class skill for you.
Darkvision (Ex)
Darkvision
Drunken Ki (Su) At 3rd level, a drunken master can drink a tankard of ale or strong alcohol and gain one temporary ki point. The act of drinking is a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The monk can have a maximum number of drunken ki points equal to 1 plus one additional point for every two levels thereafter (5th, 7th, and so on). The monk can gain this temporary ki even before he gains a ki pool at 4th level. These drunken ki points last for 1 hour or until spent, whichever is shorter. As long as he has at least 1 drunken ki point, the monk can spend 1 ki point as a move action to move 5 feet without provoking attacks of opportunity. This ability replaces still mind.
Drunken Strength (Su) At 5th level, a drunken master can spend 1 point of ki as a swift action to inflict 1d6 extra points of damage on a single successful melee attack. The monk can choose to apply the damage after the attack roll is made. At 10th level, the monk may spend 2 drunken ki points to increase the extra damage to 2d6. At 15th level, the monk may spend 3 drunken ki points to increase the extra damage to 3d6. At 20th level, the monk may spend 4 drunken ki points to increase the extra damage to 4d6. The monk must have at least 1 drunken ki point to use this ability. This ability replaces purity of body.
Evasion (Ex) You can avoid damage from many area-effect attacks. If you make a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, you instead take no damage. Evasion can only be used if you are wearing light armor or no armor. If you are helpless, you do not gain the benefit of evasion.
Fast Movement (Ex) Your gain a +20 feet enhancement bonus to your land speed. If you wear armor or carry a medium or heavy load, you lose this extra speed.
Flurry of Blows (Ex) You can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so, you may make two additional attacks using any combination of unarmed strikes or attack with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feats. For the purpose of these attacks, your base attack bonus is equal to your monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, you use your normal base attack bonus.
High Jump (Ex) You can adds +8 to all Acrobatics checks made to jump, both for vertical jumps and horizontal jumps. In addition, you always count as having a running start when making jump checks using Acrobatics. By spending 1 point from your ki pool as a swift action, you gain a +20 bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a pool of 8 ki points, supernatural energy you can use to accomplish amazing feats. As long as you have at least 1 point in your ki pool, you can make a ki strike. Ki Strike allows your unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. By spending 1 point from your ki pool, you can make one additional attack at your highest attack bonus when making a Flurry of Blows attack. In addition, you can spend 1 point to increase your speed by 20 feet for 1 round. Finally, you can spend 1 point from your ki pool to give yourself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round. Each use of these powers is activated as a swift action. The ki pool is replenished after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive.
Maneuver Training (Ex) A monk uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus when calculating his combat maneuver bonus. Base attack bonuses granted from other classes are unaffected and are added normally.
Monk Bonus Feat
Orc Blood (Ex) Half-orc count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
Orc Ferocity (Ex) Once per day, when a half-orc is brought below 0 hit points, but not killed, he can fight on for one more round as if disabled. At the end of his next turn, unless brought to above 0 hit points, he immediately falls unconscious and begins dying.
Scavenger Some half-orcs eke out a leaving picking over the garbage heaps of society, and must learn to separate rare finds from the inevitable dross. Half-orcs with this racial trait receive a +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks and on Perception checks to find hidden objects (including traps and secret doors), determine if food is spoiled, or identify a potion by taste. This racial trait replaces the intimidating racial trait.
Slow Fall (Ex) If you are within arm's reach of a wall, you can use it to slow your descent. You takes damage as if the fall were 40 feet shorter than it actually is.
Stunning Fist (Ex) You gain Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. You can choose to make the target of your Stunning Fist fatigued, or sickened for 1 minute. This condition replaces stunning the target for 1 round, and a successful saving throw still negates the effect. You must choose which condition will apply before the attack roll is made. These effects do not stack with themselves, but additional hits do increase the duration.
Wholeness of Body (Su) You can heal your own wounds as a standard action. You can heal 8 hit points of damage by using 2 points from your ki pool.
As a child, he lived on the streets, pretty much all of his young life...until he was caught stealing. His martial arts training came from a very similar origin as capoeira, and finally one day he was able to free himself.
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Most of the problems with monks can be easily demonstrated by lining up an equal number of orc warriors and 1st level PC monks. It's rather jarring that the monk has a greater shot at being one-shotted than the orc, for most builds.
If all classes were judged by their level 1 performance, the barbarian would be hideously overpowered compared to every other class and there would be no point in even rolling an arcane caster.
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A much better point to judge a class in level 7-8. This is the point where most classes start receiving their class defining abilities. It is also a point where martial and caster classes roughly equal out.
sohei-bardiche_8
Oni-Spawn Tiefling Monk (Sohei) 8
LN Medium Outsider (native)
Init +8; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +15
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Defense
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AC 23, touch 20, flat-footed 20 (+2 Dex, +3 natural, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 67 (8d8+24)
Fort +9, Ref +9, Will +11; +2 bonus vs. sleep, paralysis, and stunning
Defensive Abilities evasion; Resist cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 Keen Adamantine Bardiche +13/+8 (1d10+17/17-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +10/+5 (1d6+10/x2)
Special Attacks flurry of blows +6/+6/+6/+1/+1, ki strike, cold iron/silver, ki strike, magic, weapon trainings (pole arms +1)
Spell-Like Abilities Alter Self (1/day)
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 5
Base Atk +6; CMB +14; CMD 32
Feats Armor of the Pit, Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round), Dodge, Dragon Style, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mounted Skirmisher, Power Attack -2/+4, Weapon Focus (Bardiche)
Traits Dangerously Curious, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +9 (+17 to jump), Climb +10, Perception +15, Ride +13, Sense Motive +8, Stealth +6, Swim +10, Use Magic Device +9
Languages Abyssal, Common
SQ ac bonus +6, devoted guardian +4, fiendish sprinter, high jump, ki defense, ki pool, ki weapon +2, maneuver training, monastic mount (16 hp), monk vows (vow of silence [+1 ki], vow of truth [+1 ki]), prehensile tail, unarmed strike (1d6), wholeness of body
Combat Gear Potion of enlarge person, Potion of mage armor, Wand of cure light wounds, Wand of Enlarge Person, Wand of Mage Armor; Other Gear +1 Keen Adamantine Bardiche, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of giant strength +4, Cloak of resistance +1, Ring of protection +1, 755 GP, 5 SP
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Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +6 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Damage Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Cold attacks.
Damage Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Damage Resistance, Fire (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Fire attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Devoted Guardian +4 (Ex) At 1st level, a sohei can always act in a surprise round even if he does not notice his enemies, though he remains flat-footed until he acts. In addition, a sohei gains a bonus on initiative rolls equal to 1/2 his monk level. At 20th level, a sohei's
Dragon Style +2 vs sleep, paralysis, and stun, first unarmed strike in a rd deals 1.5x Str, and can ignore difficult terrain/allies when charging.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fiendish Sprinter 10-ft speed bonus when using charge, run or withdraw.
Flurry of Blows +6/+6/+6/+1/+1 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full rd action.
High Jump (+8/+28 with Ki point) (Ex) +8 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Cold Iron/Silver (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as cold iron and silver to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Ki Weapon +2 (Su) At 4th level, as a swift action, a sohei may spend 1 point from his ki pool to grant any weapon he wields (including his unarmed strike) a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls, increasing by +1 per four levels after 4th to a maximum
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Monastic Mount (16 HP) (Su) At 4th level, a sohei may spend 1 point from his ki pool to grant his mount temporary hit points equal to twice his level for 1 hour per level. In addition, as long as the sohei and his mount are adjacent, including when mounted, the mount gai
Mounted Skirmisher You can take a full-attack action if your mount moves only its speed.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Prehensile Tail Your tail can retrieve small objects on your person as a swift action.
Unarmed Strike (1d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Vow of Silence (+1 Ki) The monk must speak no words and attempt to be quiet in his actions. Accidental noises and the sounds of battle (such as the sound of a fist or weapon striking an opponent) do not affect his vow, though most monks with this vow choose their weapons a
Vow of Truth (+1 Ki) The monk is not allowed to deliberately speak any lies, including bluffing, stating half-truths with the intent to deceive, exaggerating, telling white lies, and so on. This applies to all forms of communication. If presented with circumstances where
Weapon Training (Pole Arms) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Pole Arms
Wholeness of Body (8 Hp/use) (Su) Use 2 ki to heal own wounds as a standard action.
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Bison (Combat-Trained)
Herd Animal, Bison
N Large Animal
Init +0; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +8
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Defense
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AC 20, touch 9, flat-footed 20 (+3 armor, -1 size, +8 natural)
hp 42 (5d8+20)
Fort +8 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +4, Will +1
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee Gore (Herd Animal, Bison) +10 (2d6+12/x2) and
. . Trample (DC 20) (Herd Animal, Bison) +10 (2d6+12)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks stampede
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Statistics
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Str 27, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 4
Base Atk +3; CMB +12 (+14 Bull Rushing); CMD 22 (24 vs. Bull Rush, 26 vs. Trip)
Feats Endurance, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack -1/+2
Tricks Attack [Trick], Combat Riding [Trick], Come [Trick], Defend [Trick], Down [Trick], Guard [Trick], Heel [Trick]
Skills Acrobatics +0 (+4 jump), Fly -2, Perception +8, Stealth -4, Swim +8 (+12 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion)
Languages
SQ combat riding [trick]
Other Gear Masterwork Studded leather armor, You have no money!
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Special Abilities
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Combat Riding [Trick] The animal has been trained to bear a rider into combat.
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Improved Bull Rush You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when bull rushing.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Power Attack -1/+2 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.
Stampede (Ex) Trample improves with multiple tramplers.
fighter-bardiche_8
Human (Garundi) Fighter 8
CG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +12
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Defense
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AC 25, touch 14, flat-footed 22 (+11 armor, +2 Dex, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 68 (8d10+16)
Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +5 (+2 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities bravery +2
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 Adamantine Bardiche +19/+11 (1d10+24/17-20/x2)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (pole arms +1)
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Statistics
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Str 24, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +8; CMB +15; CMD 29
Feats Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round), Dodge, Following Step, Furious Focus, Improved Critical (Bardiche), Iron Will, Power Attack -3/+6, Step Up, Weapon Focus (Bardiche), Weapon Specialization (Bardiche)
Traits Defender of the Society, Tomb Raider (Perception)
Skills Acrobatics +7, Climb +9, Escape Artist -1, Fly -1, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +13, Perception +12, Ride +3, Sleight of Hand +0, Stealth -1, Survival +5, Swim +9
Languages Common, Osiriani, Osiriani, Ancient
Other Gear +1 Full plate, +2 Adamantine Bardiche, Belt of giant strength +4, Cloak of resistance +1, Ring of protection +1, 487 GP
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Special Abilities
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Bravery +2 (Ex) +2 to Will save vs. Fear
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Defender of the Society +1 trait bonus to Armor Class when wearing medium or heavy armor.
Following Step You may move 10' with Step Up, and still get a 5' step on your next turn.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Step Up When a foe makes a 5 ft step away from you, you can move 5 ft to follow them.
Weapon Training (Pole Arms) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Pole Arms
Some real numbers to discuss. There is more to a character than just raw DPR. We can also look at movement, battlefield control, AC, Saves, Skills, HP, etc.
If anybody else wants to post a level 8 build, feel free. The debate on monks is pointless without real numbers.
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Except the barbarian can afford to spend resources on A and B. The monk on the otherhand can spend every iota of his resources into offence and never match the barbarian in dpr EVEN when the barbarian has bought into those defensive options
Post a level 8 PFS legal barbarian so we can compare real numbers
and mobility is hugely in favor of the Barb. as he gets access to pounce.
There are options in the game that make pounce look like the poor mans choice.
Sohei happens to access one of those options at level 1.
The zen archer uses another.
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All the sohei gets at 1st level is a +1 initiative and the ability to act in the surprise round. That's nice and is better than pounce would be at first level, since you're not very dependent on multiple attacks at 1st.
Look at the level 1 bonus feats. Sohei is intended to be a mounted character and receives many benefits to support this, including:
Benefit: If your mount moves its speed or less, you can still take a full-attack action.
While mounted, the Sohei can move through allies, around corners, etc and still flurry.
If you choose the right mount, you can even move through opponents and still flurry. Combat trained bison make great mounts for the sohei.
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Kudos for posting builds. But you still take one of the archetypes that people in the forum consider Ok. Why not a vanilla monk? you are using a vanilla fighter afther all.
What the fighter archetypes give up is generally far better than what they gain. I choose the vanilla fighter because I believe it is the best choice.
If you have a better build, I invite you to post it. I don't claim to be the best, but I am willing to put things down in writing rather than debate the advantages and disadvantages of non-existent characters.
There are options in the game that make pounce look like the poor mans choice.
Sohei happens to access one of those options at level 1.
The zen archer uses another.
Can a sohei really expect to have a horse at level 1? They tend to be rather expensive. Sure, wealth by level 2 could cover it, but until then, you would be scrounging. I guess you could theoretically steal and/or 'acquire' one...but you are lawful. I guess maybe as a form of loot if you manage to catch if after dispatching the assailant that rode it.
But a barbarian has those same options. Can you say that at low levels a sohei still dealing with the comparatively heavy burden of the 'twf' penalties could beat a RAGELANCEPOUNCE in terms of damage? Remember, the only advantage a two handed weapon in a flurry has is the improved power attack damage. Worse yet, barbarians have an archetype for gaining an animal companion horse, so they would not have to go through the expense of acquiring a new mount every few levels. That is usually only practical if you have a druid around to help you catch new mounts, and this brings up problems of other monk builds.