I'm about to start up a campaign and I'm attempting to create an evasive tank to some extents. In comes the Dervish Dancer which I've decided to break away from straight martial classes. So far my plan is to dip into MoMS for 1 or 2 levels to get the WIS to AC and Crane Style feats. Taking things like Dodge and Osyluths Guile, Combat Expertise to get my AC as high as possible and just taunt enemies around the battlefield (proceeding to flank a lot with the rogue).
It's a different kind of concept from traditional support and tank but the whole idea is to be impossible to hit (even if I'm gonna suck at hitting back).
To give some context, the character was originally a servant at a bath house and then when she was attacked by a mob she was snuck out of the city. A patron taught her to dance and thus she uses that ability to fight (or at least wear the enemy out). She's not very confrontational, nor is she trying to kill anyone, in fact she'd rather avoid it. All this leads up to my current concept.
So, now the question is, is it worth it to dip Monk, are there any feats I'm missing? Anything I should consider to help my output a bit or improve battlefield control?
Stats are:
STR: 8
DEX: 16
CON: 7 (I know, but she's a frail character so I'll deal)
INT: 13 (combat expertise)
WIS: 16
CHA: 20 (due to +2 from Human and +2 from other campaign specific buffs).
So what do you guys think? how can i guarantee she won't be swathed off the map like a fly? If I feel she's too low on HP I'll certainly be getting the Toughness feet to offset the issue, and I think my favored class ranks are going straight into HP.
Halfling with a 20 dex and 16 cha has 3 more AC at lvl 1. Your feats should go like this. Dodge, power attack, imp unarmed strike, crane style, crane wing, crane riposte.
(...) traditional support and tank but the whole idea is to be impossible to hit (...)
I should warn you: No PC that you could create will be (nearly) "impossible to hit". A high AC will let the (the most) DM(s) choose foes with a higher attack, that´s all ;-)
In comes the Dervish Dancer
As Origami says, making a PC 'impossible' to hit is a b&*%&. However, an alternative is to negate attacks or otherwise dodge them. Thus I'd suggest playing as a Monk, taking the Crane Style feats, and perhaps one of the archetypes which can block attacks (can't Flowing Monk do that?).
Well, first off I should probably mention the following:
- Homebrew world and races, no Halfling race available.
- Dervish Dancer, not Dawnflower.
@byrdology: that's pretty close to what I had in mind, with a dip in 1 level of monk to add my WIS to AC on top of getting Improved Unarmed Strike and Crane Style started at the same time. So far my feat list is:
1: Weapon Finesse, Dodge (human bonus)
2: Crane Style (Monk)
3: Dervish Dance
5: Combat Expertise
7:
9: Osyluths Guile (CHA as Dodge)
This way, when fighting defensively I have:
10+3(DEX)+3(WIS)+4(Armor)+1(Dodge)+3(Defensive Fighting) = 24 AC at level 5 without any real magic items, at level 9 I can grab Osyluths guile and bump that up by another 6 (religious buff gives me +1 to CHA every 4 levels) vs a single opponent (30AC) and that's while wearing light armor and not including dex ups (which at 9 would probably only be 2, so add another +1). This also does not include the Bard bonuses to AC from the Dervish Dancer class, which I think if all was said and done, at level 9 fighting against a single opponent I'd have around 32AC not including the buffs I can give myself from spells like Eagle's Splendor and Cat's Grace (all at once bumping me up another 4AC).
Now I could also dip Duelist, but I feel doing so may not be worth it just for AC. Although the BAB would be a nice substitute for the one I lost dipping monk.
At least that's what I'm thinking. I know it is impossible to make something that will never be hit. But the idea is to distract while moving around the battlefield.
But why would anyone hit on a hard to hit low threat character?
yeah a tank needs to make a treath or he wont be worth hitting let him jimmy arouind the battlefield lets kill the glas canon first! or just put a nice spell on him or graple him!
its not all about AC
I understand that, I plan to couple this with enchantment and compulsion spells. But if you have more specifics about how I can change it up to get this luring type of character working I'm open to it. But I have to say the class is restricted to Bard and Dervish Dancer atm (mostly because it is worked into the backstory already). If there is a different way you would play it then I'm open.
Also, the only reason I chose this route was because the party lacked a frontliner. The problem here is I traditionally play martial classes, which would work here. But I'm attempting to play less direct characters. But once I learned the party was a Rogue/Witch I needed to change that thinking up a bit. So I went Dervish.
That being said, I MAY be able to switch to Sorcerer or possibly an Oracle if I play the cards right with my GM, and the Oracle may not be a bad idea considering the world. Regardless what we need is someone who can front line a bit as a caster/support and this was just one concept I came up with.
|
I am currently playing a Dervish Dancer 11 Fighter 2 in the Serpent Skull AP. I did go quite different with the concept than you did though. My DD is a high STR low DEX build that uses a Falchion and does nice damage with power attacks and cleave.
I have at this point basically disregarded AC all together as the monsters and NPC's all have massive bonuses to hit and as a light armored character my ac has never been above 20.
My tactics at this point make my character very much unhittable against most attacks, Mirror Image and Displacement and being fairly mobile while dancing. It took quite some time for me to get to the defenses I have and at low levels I was pretty much a auto hit. It just took me trying to play a smarter upfront fighter which failed miserably on many occasions.
Male Human (Keleshite) Bard (Dervish Dancer) 11 Fighter (Lore Warden) 2
NG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +16
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 20, touch 12, flat-footed 19 (+7 armor, +1 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 126 (2d10+11d8+42)
Fort +11, Ref +11, Will +10; +4 vs. bardic performance, sonic, and language-dependant effects
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 Holy Adamantine Falchion +17/+12 (2d4+8+2d6 vs. Evil/15-20/x2) and
. . +1 Scimitar +16/+11 (1d6+6/18-20/x2) and
. . Kukri +15/+10 (1d4+5/18-20/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Composite shortbow (Str +2) +12/+7 (1d6+2/x3)
Special Attacks bardic performance: countersong, bardic performance: distraction, bardic performance: fascinate (4 targets) (dc 19), bardic performance: inspire competence +4, battle dance: inspire courage +3, battle dance: inspire greatness
Spell-Like Abilities Light (At will)
Bard (Dervish Dancer) Spells Known (CL 11):
4 (3/day) Invisibility, Greater, Freedom of Movement, Shield of the Dawnflower
3 (5/day) Good Hope, Invisibility Sphere, Displacement, Charm Monster (DC 17), Arcane Concordance, Thundering Drums (DC 17)
2 (5/day) Allegro, Versatile Weapon (DC 16), Rage, Tongues, Mirror Image, Cure Moderate Wounds, Invisibility
1 (6/day) Liberating Command, Saving Finale (DC 15), Identify, Comprehend Languages, Charm Person (DC 15), Cure Light Wounds, Feather Fall (DC 15), Feather Step (DC 15), Windy Escape
0 (at will) Resistance, Mage Hand, Detect Magic, Prestidigitation (DC 14), Message, Light
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 20, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 18
Base Atk +10; CMB +15; CMD 27
Feats Arcane Strike, Cleave, Combat Expertise +/-3, Critical Focus, Furious Focus, Improved Critical (Falchion), Improved Initiative, Power Attack -3/+6, Spellsong, Toughness +13, Weapon Focus (Falchion)
Traits Get the Cargo Through, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +25, Appraise +6, Bluff +8, Climb +9, Diplomacy +20, Disable Device -1, Escape Artist +5, Heal +2, Intimidate +8, Knowledge (arcana) +5, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (geography) +4, Knowledge (history) +4, Knowledge (local) +4, Knowledge (nature) +6, Knowledge (planes) +5, Knowledge (religion) +4, Linguistics +7, Perception +16, Perform (act) +9, Perform (dance) +25, Sense Motive +4, Spellcraft +14, Stealth +5, Survival +4 (+6 to avoid becoming lost), Swim +9, Use Magic Device +15
Languages Aklo, Azlanti, Common, Draconic, Kelish, Polyglot
SQ battle dance (swift action) (28 rounds/day), battle dance: rain of blows +2, battle dance: razor's kiss, fleet, glamered, jack of all trades: trained skills, masterpieces (the dance of 23 steps), well versed
Combat Gear Litheria blossom, Potion of barkskin +2, Potion of cure light wounds, Potion of cure moderate wounds, Potion of cure serious wounds, Potion of invisibility, Potion of resist fire 10, Potion of restoration, lesser, Potion of shield of faith +2, Wand of Charm Animal, Healer's kit, Oil (4); Other Gear +3 Glamered Mithral Chain shirt, +1 Holy Adamantine Falchion, +1 Scimitar, Kukri, Masterwork Composite shortbow (Str +2), Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of giant strength +2, Cloak of resistance +3, Handy haversack (11 @ 836.24 lbs), Headband of alluring charisma +2, Ring of protection +1, Wayfinder (empty), Bedroll, Belt pouch (1 @ 0 lbs), Belt pouch (1 @ 0 lbs), Belt pouch (empty), Continual Flame bullseye Lantern, Flint and steel, Mug/tankard, Sewing needle, Signal whistle, Spell component pouch, String or twine (3), 41237 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Bardic Performance: Countersong (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sound.
Bardic Performance: Distraction (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sight.
Bardic Performance: Fascinate (4 targets) (DC 19) (Su) One or more creatures becomes fascinated with you.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Competence +4 (Su) +2 competence bonus for one ally on a skill check.
Battle Dance (swift action) (28 rounds/day) Battle dances can create bardic performance effects only on self.
Battle Dance: Inspire Courage +3 (Su) Morale bonus on some saving throws, attack and damage rolls.
Battle Dance: Inspire Greatness (Su) Grants self 2 bonus hit dice, +2 to attacks and +1 to fort saves.
Battle Dance: Rain of Blows +2 (Su) Gain dodge bonus to AC, Ref saves & extra attack as haste.
Battle Dance: Razor's Kiss (Su) All attacks with manufactured weapons count as Improved Critical.
Cleave If you hit a foe, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus but take -2 AC.
Combat Expertise +/-3 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Fleet (Su) Gain an enhancement bonus to speed when battle dancing.
Glamered Assumes appearance of normal clothes on command.
Jack of All Trades: Trained skills (Ex) You may use all skills untrained.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Spellsong Combine spellcasting and bardic performance
The Dance of 23 Steps This complex dance makes you difficult to strike.
Well Versed (Ex) +4 save vs. bardic performance, sonic, and language-dependent effects.
No matter your AC and saves, Con 7 is just a terrible idea. If partial damage from spells (evasion only helps you against spells with a reflex save) doesn't kill you, then poison and disease (or con drain if the GM is nasty) will. That's not considering the fact that either you won't protect the party because you'll be flat-out ignored or monsters will hit you anyway - through grapple, wolfpack tactics, trip, or whatever. DMs that want to can always hit you. So you get to choose between being dead and useless.
Pathfinder has no real threat mechanics apart from being actually dangerous. If you want to be the low-damage protector, play a sacred shield paladin or a life oracle - maaaaybe something like a reach / combat reflexes / trip specialist, but that trick quickly becomes less useful once monsters start to fly or teleport. It's pretty good at lower levels, though.
An azata blooded Aasimar bard (dervish of dawn/ sound striker) 12/ paladin ( oath of vengeance) 8 is a damn near unhittable/ unkillable dpr beast who can't be ignored. Put your fcb into inspire courage, and at lvl 12 you get the full +8 to hit and dmg, your weird words does 10d8 x cha dmg at range, and once you get a couple lvls of paladin... Well there is no better light armored tank in the game, and your "main gun" out dmg a the best blasty mages, with a highly deadly melee threat as well.
Archon Diversion, or In Harm's Way.
Pathfinder has no real threat mechanics apart from being actually dangerous.This isn't quite true in this case - Bards get a number of Enchantment/compulsion effects that can force an opponent to either attack you or waste actions otherwise, which can add up to enough of a hassle that you become a priority without dealing damage.
That said....honestly, the insistence on Wisdom-to-AC here means you're probably going to be spreading yourself too thin for most cases. If your GM will allow you to use Dervish Dance (the feat) you may be able to get away with dumping Strength instead of Con (I've done that in a theoretical Dawnflower Dervish build.)
Also, remember that a monk does not get their Wisdom bonus to AC while wearing armor. Strength(armor)+Dex is yielding a better return than Wis+Dex, so you may just want to drop that for more Cha and Dex.
I had actually forgot about that, and I am already going over my plans again. I'm more than likely going to drop Wisdom down a bit, bring CON up to at least 10/12 and give myself a 12 STR as well. That way I'll be fairly even across the board outside of DEX and CHA. So my final stats would be either:
25 Point Buy, +2 Human, +1 from Human Race variant, +1 CHA (+1/4lvsls) from religious affiliation.
STR 13, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 9, WIS 10, CHA 20
- or -
STR 10, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 13, WIS 10, CHA 20
- or -
STR 13, DEX 16, CON 10, INT 12, WIS 10, CHA 20 -> this one qualifies for Combat Expertise and Combat Expertise at level 5 after I drop my point into INT. So it would be:
1. Weapon Finesse, Arcane Strike or Dodge
3. Power Attack
5. Combat Expertise
7. Lunge
9. Vital Strike
Then I've considered going just standard bard, Arcane Duelist over Dervish Dancer. If all else fails, I can just go Dawnflower although I kind of want the Rapier for this particular character. In the end, I may just go for the Arcane Duelist or rough it as a Dervish Dancer and wait till level 3 for the Dervish Dance feat.
Yeah, it would be nice to have to lose the rapier proficiency, because if I go dervish there's little reason for Weapon Finesse and I may as well wait till level 3 to even worry about it.
So the question is, do I go Arcane Duelist with a Rapier, or Dervish Dancer with a Scimitar? Either way things work out fine, but the Arcane Duelist's utility will be far more apparent, and I can just put Agile on my Rapier at some point. In regards the party we have a Rogue and a Witch. The Witch will apparently be primarily support/control/debuff. Not doing any, or very little damage. Our rogue is a Knife Master... so maximizing Sneak Attacks. I on the other hand plan on being his flanking buddy and the distraction that keeps the enemy wanting to come at me specifically.
I know bards have the ability to do that, just need help accomplishing it.
I just popped into to say a highly defensive character without at least a solid threat to enemies is near useless. When the enemy realizes you can barely hit them or do negligble damage then they walk around you to the squishy guys behind you. Pumping up your AC to nigh invulnerable levels just means you die last.
Being the best defender in Pathfinder usually means having good saves and HP to stay standing, while being able to occupy and inflict good damage to your enemies so they have to focus on you and can't ignoer you.
I just popped into to say a highly defensive character without at least a solid threat to enemies is near useless. When the enemy realizes you can barely hit them or do negligble damage then they walk around you to the squishy guys behind you. Pumping up your AC to nigh invulnerable levels just means you die last.
Being the best defender in Pathfinder usually means having good saves and HP to stay standing, while being able to occupy and inflict good damage to your enemies so they have to focus on you and can't ignoer you.
Perhaps i should update the first post. I was never dead set on my character working this way. It was just the idea i came up with which had already changed through the course of thus thread. As it currently stands, I'm sticking with dervish, but what i plan on doing is instead of getting the Dervish Dance feat I'll just get proficiency in a rapier. Same number of feats expended. That, or I will talk with my GM about maybe foregoing the proficiency change. For now the character will be using kukris and a short sword.
Not sure how it would work out in a multiclass build, but I'm a big fan of the Spell Dancer "Dervish" build magus. AC bonuses when you're wearing light or no armor that increases as you level, additional AC bonuses against AoOs provoked by movement, huge movement speed bonuses, frequent crits because you're using a scimitar, good damage by using Shocking Grasp... Once I can find the money on my (currently) 10th level spell dancer magus to buy celestial armor, I believe with my buffs up I'll be darting around in light armor with an AC of about 31 (35 against AoOs).
The problem is that movement bonuses are a fallacy. After a few levels you are likely doing something wrong if you are not full attacking. Also, remember that an AoO can be a maneuver, so mobile builds need to pay attention to their CMD. Nothing quite as humiliating as getting tripped on the way to your target.