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Instead of the usual higher attack bonus, blah, blah -- all of which is worth discussing, but it's been done in several other threads -- I'd like to focus on giving the rogue things he can do that other people can't. You know, like, an actual niche.
Rogue talents are piddly things not really worth writing down, for the most part, and skills aren't all they're cracked up to be. And for some reason no one will tolerate a spellcasting rogue (maybe because that would kind of make you a bard). See below, and you can tell where I'm headed: the rogue becomes a rascal who can't be captured, paralyzed, charmed, or whatever, and who can sabotage his/her enemies' spells, items, and defenses.
Slippery Mind (Ex): At 2nd level, you are immune to charm effects. Starting at 8th level, you are immune to compulsions.
Rogue's Luck (Ex): Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. Starting at 4th level, once per day you can force a reroll of any d20 roll that occurs within 10 ft. per class level of you (including one of yours). You must declare the use of this ability after the roll is made, but before the results are announced. This does not require an action on your part. For every 4 class levels you attain, you gain another daily use of this ability.
Shady Character (Ex): At 6th level, you are difficult to spy on, even with magical means. You are constantly under the effects of nondetection, with an effective caster level equal to your class level.
Slippery (Ex): Starting at 8th level, you are continuously under the effects of freedom of movement. This is a consequence of your extremely honed ability to slip free of restraints and cannot be dispelled.
Network of Contacts (Ex): By 10th level, you are assumed to be a notorious underworld figure, with contacts and “friends of friends” all over the world. Whenever you are in any settlement, town, or city, once per week you may call in favor from someone you know, or who knows someone you know. The maximum CR of this NPC is equal to half your rogue level. The NPC will try to accomplish any task that is not suicidal, doesn’t seriously affect his or her resources, and takes up to one day. Exact details on how calling in the favor works, who the NPC is, etc., are subject to player and referee agreement.
If you have the Leadership feat, your contacts are partly in response to you being a major crime lord, Guildmaster of Thieves, etc. Your followers permit illegal activities to occur close to your home base only with your approval; you are entitled to “wet your beak” and collect a 10% “tax” (which is sufficient to pay for the housing and upkeep of your followers, and for gifts to visiting crime bosses from elsewhere). This puts considerable narrative power into your hands (as opposed to the referee’s), insofar as you can declare what illegal activities are undertaken in your area, and how they are run.
Sabotage Item (Ex): Starting at 12th level, you can use the Disable Device skill to cause a magic item to malfunction, either on its next use (DC 10 + caster level), for a short period (up to 1 round per class level; DC 15 + caster level), or until repaired (DC 20 + caster level). By adding 5 to the DC, you can cause the item to backfire on the user (if applicable) rather than simply not working. By adding 10 to the DC, you can cause the item to work normally for you, in addition to not functioning (or backfiring) for others. This takes 1 round for an unattended object. You can perform this task on an object in someone's possession, but this requires a successful Sleight of Hand check on your part and provokes an attack of opportunity.
Master of Deception(Ex): Starting at 14th level, when you attempt a Bluff check, your target cannot attempt an opposed check to see through your lies until 1 round after your skill check. For that round, he or she automatically believes your deception. Targets who succeed at the check are not affected by this talent from you for the rest of the day: they are now on guard against you and suspect of everything you say. You can still trick them, but they no longer delay their counterchecks.
If you use this ability to feint, you always get at least one attack against your opponent with their active defense denied: they automatically believe your feint long enough for you to make that attack. You only gain the benefit of this ability once per opponent per encounter, but may feint normally against them (without this benefit) as often as you like through the rest of the encounter.
Bypass Spells (Ex): Starting at 16th level, you can use the Disable Device skill on active spell effects as if they were magical traps. For example, if trapped in a telekinetic sphere, you might spend a full-round action determining how to bypass it, thus freeing yourself. Alternatively, you might spend a full-round action figuring out how to attack an opponent guarded by a prismatic sphere without being affected by it. The DC is 10 + the caster level of the spell + the level of the spell.
Unfettered (Ex): At 18th level, you are immune to mind-affecting effects. In addition, you are immune to any form of imprisonment; by succeeding at an Escape Artist check (DC 20 + caster level) as a full-round action, you can step out of a forcecage, walk through a wall up to 1/2 foot thick per class level, break a binding or imprisonment effect, etc. You can use this ability even if the effect normally renders you unable to act. If an attempt fails, you must wait 1 day before trying again.
sold
wait where are the other 62 pages
Think of this as the "lite" version for people who don't read that quickly!
I like it... Although I'm not sure i understand how Master of Deception works...
Out of combat, what's the advantage of delaying the Sense Motive check by 1 round? What's the difference between guards attacking you now or in 6 seconds?
The immunity to charm/compulsion and eventually mind-effects is pretty nice, but doesn't sound like Rogue-ish ability. is it because they are supposed to excel on escaping all sorts of prisons?
The immunity to charm/compulsion and eventually mind-effects is pretty nice, but doesn't sound like Rogue-ish ability. is it because they are supposed to excel on escaping all sorts of prisons?
Yeah, and they don't like being told what to do -- that's why they're rogues.
Out of combat, what's the advantage of delaying the Sense Motive check by 1 round? What's the difference between guards attacking you now or in 6 seconds?
A LOT can happen in 1 round when you're 14th level. Most fights I run are over in 1-2 rounds by that point.
Yeah, and they don't like being told what to do -- that's why they're rogues.
I see... That's what I thought, just wanted to be sure.
Although I think I'd prefer something like being capable of using Escape Artist to break compulsion effects... But your idea is simpler and more useful.A LOT can happen in 1 round when you're 14th level. Most fights I run are over in 1-2 rounds by that point.
I see. It's a more combat-focused feature.
I kept twitching when I read (Ex) after (Ex) that were clearly (Su) or (Sp). I should get that checked out...
I see. It's a more combat-focused feature.
Not necessarily -- that was just an example. A free round is worth infinity gp when you have 14th level full caster friends around who can use it to play an "I win" card against any given sentient annoyance or obstacle you're facing.
Well it's different, that's for sure... Couple tweaks to wording and maybe upgrade from (ex) to (su), but I like it. It seems that most classes get different abilities later on, while the rogue has the same 4lvls over and over. A it of diversity helps break that up.
Very interesting--I definitely like the direction these are going in. Some do seem less critical to the core concept of 'rogue' and might be better suited as talents, such as Sabotage Item. Though being able to rig an item to backfire if anyone else uses it does seem awfully rogue-y...
Very interesting--I definitely like the direction these are going in. Some do seem less critical to the core concept of 'rogue' and might be better suited as talents, such as Sabotage Item. Though being able to rig an item to backfire if anyone else uses it does seem awfully rogue-y...
In my home game, that's a talent, but rogues are pseudo-casters who get [Strike] feat effects added to their sneak attacks, so they don't need the boost.
The core rogue definitely needs it, and the core rogue talents are for the most part so lame that I'm ashamed of even mentioning then (yay, I can move at normal speed while balancing -- I'm sure that might come up once in a 20-level campaign...).
Shady Character, Slippery, Bypass Spells and Unfettered look like they ought to be (Su). I can see an argument for Shady Character being (Ex) I guess.
I strongly dislike Network of Contacts. It makes so many assumptions about what a rogue is and what he is like and you don't get the full benefit without taking a feat that's already really powerful but doesn't fit everyone's concept.
All that said, I really like what you're trying to do here. This is a cool idea and most of these effects would be improvements.
Would you give this stuff to the ninja too?
While I agree the rogue is weak and needs some changes, I think these go too far into making the rogue supernatural. I like the rogue as an 'everyman' hero, one who does not necessarily use magic or divinity to get what they want.
I also don't understand why you don't push these as rogue talents. Yes, you don't like rogue talents, and they are weak. Surely the answer to weak rogue talents is to make better ones?
Slippery Mind (Ex):
OK, thinking of the number of stories of thieves tempted to steal, this doesn't make sense. Yes, rogues have weak Will saves. Yes, they need some improvement. No, I don't think they rate immunity, though. Why not an Intelligence bonus to their Will saves instead? Or a static bonus? Or good Will saves.
Rogue's Luck (Ex):
Horribly strong, given a feat is generally worth a single re-roll a day - one per level? on ANY roll? That's very strong.
Shady Character (Ex):
I like the concept of this, but not the implementation. Why not give them a second save, or a boost to saves?
Slippery (Ex):
VERY powerful! Why not let them have a boost to CMD & Escape artist instead, and save this for higher levels?
Network of Contacts (Ex):
I really like this one!
Sabotage Item (Ex):
Love this!
Master of Deception(Ex):
So an auto-success on any feint, no matter how good the other guy is at spotting tricks? No. Love the concept, but not the implementation.
Bypass Spells (Ex):
I like this idea.
Unfettered (Ex):
Capstones are for 20th level, and this is definitely a capstone ability!
I like the rogue as an 'everyman' hero, one who does not necessarily use magic or divinity to get what they want.
And that's fine up until about 5th level. After that, you're not playing a game about 'everyman' heroes; you're playing a game in which people can bend time and space to their will, raise the dead, and survive orbital re-entry naked. If you insist that some classes remain "everyman" heroes, then cap them at 5th level and be done with it (E6, for example, is the system you want for that -- not Pathfinder.)
I also don't understand why you don't push these as rogue talents. Yes, you don't like rogue talents, and they are weak. Surely the answer to weak rogue talents is to make better ones?
That's how I did it in my home game -- AFTER nixing and/or massively buffing the existing ones. But given a choice between one of these and, say, "move at full speed while balancing" -- that's not a choice at all ("Your salary will be either $50,000/year, or else 1 egg yolk per year, your choice."). The existing talents can all be given away as door prizes. The point of these is that they're worth actual class features.
That's very strong.
When you have a class as weak as the rogue is -- who has no niche, no real class features worth mentioning, and no combat ability -- then I'd say this is about what he needs to make him at all useful.
Network of Contacts should maybe be made a bit more general; I like the information network idea, but don't hardcode being a crime lord into it. The rogue class is also a vehicle for all sorts of detective/inquisitor/loner/scout type characters.
Yes! Then you simply re-fluff it for those rogues; that's a 5-second process.
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Slippery Mind: immunity is way too much. A saving throw every round would be more reasonable. I agree about the Ex though.
Slippery: first off, try not to have two different abilities with the same name. Second, this ability makes Escape Artist irrelevant. Why not allowing Escape Artist checks as a swift action instead?
Would you give this stuff to the ninja too?
I would roll the ninja into the rogue. I see no point in having two nearly identical classes when you can just have one class with a different selection of talents.
Second, this ability makes Escape Artist irrelevant.
The existing spell, which has wide availability, already makes Escape Artist irrelevant. Just as levitate makes Climb irrelevant. For better or worse, the game is set up so that skills are meaningless except at very low levels. So think of this as you just being able to Take 20 on swift Escape Artist checks, and it falls into place.
Let me add that I don't particularly like the very limited shelf-life of most skills in the core rules, which is why some of the higher-level class features I've proposed are skill-dependent. Having ranks in Escape Artist would pay off when you get the Unfettered ability.
Regarding the massive nerdrage over some of these not being (Su): As soon as anyone proposes any (Su) class features for rogues or fighters, 75% of the Paizo fanbase freaks out that it's the end of the world and that you're "destroying D&D" and then massive accusations of 4e edition wars badwrongfun fly thick and fast -- and if you think I'm exaggerating, I've seen it more than once before. By sticking an (Ex) tag you can sometimes get people to actually read the abilities before dismissing them out of hand in a fit of rage. Also, I don't think it's unrealistic that a guy who's spent his whole life disregarding laws and other people's orders, for example, would become resistant to magical commands as well, without that ability needing to be "magical."
If that destroys "realism" for you, then, yeah, dragons.
Slippery: first off, try not to have two different abilities with the same name.
This is a good point.
If Rogues needed any fixing, about 1/3 of the abilities proposed would do the job.
Atarlost,
I'm mostly agreed on the niche protection issue, but as long as we're playing in a class-based system, that means everyone needs something they're better at than their friends -- something actually relevant. Which is what I'm trying to give the rogue here. (That said, I'd be all in favor of making rogues into bard casters, but calling the spells "skill tricks" instead. Indeed, I did that in my home game. That way rogue abilities are scaled to 1st - 6th level spell effects.)
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@Kirth: let me be clear. I really like the direction you're going into: that high-level rogues use nonmagical acrobatics, tradecraft and so forth to achieve results on par with magic. I agree that the abilities should be Ex; above level 10 even nonmagical people reach skill levels that should be considered high fantasy; the sort of stuff you only get to do in action movies with lots of stunt teams and CGI.
But I'm not wild about part of the practical applications. Straight-out immunity to Charm/Compulsion invalidates other concepts (Enchanter wizard, bard, lots of Fey monsters). That's why repeated Slippery Mind checks strike me as a better; it's a matter of time before you'll escape, but you haven't just flat-out nullified entire types of character/monster.
My objection to "Slippery" is that first you take Escape Artist for seven levels, then get an ability that makes it obsolete, then eight levels later you need it again. That's a horrible way to work with a skill.
I'd much rather see the rogue start to get better at escape from very low levels - a Move action to use Escape Artist at level 3, a Swift at level 7, Free at 11.
I like your ability to escape spells, but if you chop it up into smaller bits you can start on it at much lower levels. Certainly by level 10 all PCs should be superhero enough that a rogue using Ex abilities to get out from under the casters' thumbs isn't unreasonable.
I see your logic with the (Ex) tags, its just the abilities seemed kinda magical. I would find it very difficult indeed to get worked up over the issue.
I will however join you in despairing at the 4e/death of D&D melodrama crowd. They are extremely frustrating.
While unrelated, these revisions were the thing that finally de-scattered a bunch of hitherto unrelated ideas for a class I've been wanting to make for a while. So thanks!
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One of the problems that I have with this is that it's too absolute in many areas. I understand that casters get some similar things with spells, but I think there's a difference between a caster, who uses some sort of resources (be it scrolls, or spell slots or whatever) to get an absolute effect such as freedom of movement. It seems wrong to give that to the rogue all the time. Also, the "Immune to [Insert condition]" thing about the Paladin made them feel Paladin-y. The rogue isn't like the knight in shining armor who can just shake off charms and compulsions. To me, the rogue is the weasely guy who always manages to use his wits and skill get out of the situation by the skin of his teeth. To me, I don't care a wink if the abilities are (Ex) or (Su). What I care about is making the rogue feel like the rogue.
I feel like this probably would best be served by some sort of pool. Others have suggested a "Guile Pool" based on Int, which I think could be used for things like rogue's luck, and also other stuff that allows rogues not to necessarily always be able to ignore charm effects, but maybe an ability that lets them immediately roll a bluff check when they succeed a will save for a charm or compulsion effect to make the caster believe that they have been affected, or something like that. That's probably not the best one, since it's so situational, but it should be powerful effects that feel like the rogue is using his wits to stay one step ahead.
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I like the rogue as an 'everyman' hero, one who does not necessarily use magic or divinity to get what they want.And that's fine up until about 5th level. After that, you're not playing a game about 'everyman' heroes; you're playing a game in which people can bend time and space to their will, raise the dead, and survive orbital re-entry naked. If you insist that some classes remain "everyman" heroes, then cap them at 5th level and be done with it (E6, for example, is the system you want for that -- not Pathfinder.)
Yet you kept these as Ex abilities rather than Su, implying they are extraordinary rather than magical. At the same time, though, you employed magical mechanics. What I am saying is that if you keep the non-magical theme through the abilities' actual mechanics you maintain the verisimilitude.
For example, rather than "Freedom of Movement," try: "The rogue adds their class level to Escape Artist and CMB checks to escape grapples, bonds, or other forms of restraint or imprisonment. They may make such attempts as a move equivalent action."
I also don't understand why you don't push these as rogue talents. Yes, you don't like rogue talents, and they are weak. Surely the answer to weak rogue talents is to make better ones?That's how I did it in my home game -- AFTER nixing and/or massively buffing the existing ones. But given a choice between one of these and, say, "move at full speed while balancing" -- that's not a choice at all ("Your salary will be either $50,000/year, or else 1 egg yolk per year, your choice."). The existing talents can all be given away as door prizes. The point of these is that they're worth actual class features.
I understand what you mean - BUT running these as rogue talents has the advantage that you can plug them straight into the rogue as-is, no need to reprint, change, or adjust existing rogue write-ups or stat blocks.
That's very strong.When you have a class as weak as the rogue is -- who has no niche, no real class features worth mentioning, and no combat ability -- then I'd say this is about what he needs to make him at all useful.
The problem is that you have hyper-focussed the rogue abilities into an area he is already strong in. That's not where he needs strength.
Unless you plan to trim the class list down to fighting man/magic user/cleric/thief niche protection is the wrong direction to go in. In any given game a noncombat niche is either mandatory or overkill and ultimately a waste of a character slot.
To be balanced they should be brought into line with the other skill classes, not made some skill monkey version of Minmax. That means that most of what they need is combat utility to put them on par with the bard and inquisitor with only a little bit of skill enhancement to compensate for stuff like invisibility and silence.
That's what talents were supposed to do, but for some reason they were scaled to the skill focus feats rather than to first through fourth level spells.
I'm mostly agreed on the niche protection issue, but as long as we're playing in a class-based system, that means everyone needs something they're better at than their friends -- something actually relevant. Which is what I'm trying to give the rogue here. (That said, I'd be all in favor of making rogues into bard casters, but calling the spells "skill tricks" instead. Indeed, I did that in my home game. That way rogue abilities are scaled to 1st - 6th level spell effects.)
I don't think you are getting what Aterlost means, and WHY the rogue has been overtaken by other classes. Look at the options to the rogue when it comes to a scout/skill-monkey, in core these are the Bard and the Ranger. Looking at their utility and ability:
Rogue: Scouting 9/10 Fighting 5/10 Other Utility 4/10
Bard: Scouting 8/10 Fighting 7/10 Other Utility 8/10
Ranger: Scouting 8/10 Fighting 8/10 Other Utility 7/10
Giving the rogue 10/10 or 11/10 for scouting isn't going to change that the other classes are way better at other stuff and THAT's what makes them better than the rogue.
The rogue instead needs to be improved at combat and other stuff if he is going to compete with the other scouting classes. He doesn't need to be a better rogue, he needs to be a broader rogue.
Kirth, this wasn't make clear in initial post but are this abilities in addition to the standard rogue goodies, or do they replace some? And if so, which abilities are replaced?
I like the fixes, just figuring out how to implement.
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concerning the EX vs SU debate, the above proposals, whether or not you like them, are an extension of the logic of the rules that allow a 1st level rogue to, by virtue of her Trapfinding (Ex) ability, use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps.
also, Vindicator, it appears the intent is to tack these onto the current rogue (notice the strategic gaps at 4th, 8th, and 20th, which have other special abilities)
This build does seem interesting, but I kind of think Slippery and Shady Character are a bit powerful for their level. Conversely, I think that Master of Deception and Sabotage Item could be granted earlier for their effects. I'd maybe consider switching these around or something. Otherwise, this is a really interesting idea for Rogues.
Master of Deception says "Look behind you!"
I'm finally useful! says this Rogue Talent.
Loving the approach! This is exactly the mindset that we need when approaching a rewrite of these classes abilities.
If we are agreeing that there's a major issue with a class' narrative power and validity in CR, then we can't compare it to the original in any way. We have to compare to other things, such as: what other classes are capable of; what encounters he will face at a given level.
A bunch of what you have listed there looks like stuff the Spy Master prestige class does. Which is awesome! That class had some AMAZING abilities that almost never get seen because of the otherwise little used concept of a prestige.
The only abilities I have a bit of quibble over would be the following:
Network of Contacts: Not really a mechanical quibble, but an impact to roleplaying one. It forces a particular concept onto every rogue build, and forces some assumptions on the game world. Feels better as an archetype ability to allow some rogue builds have access instead of requiring "the average" rogue this way.
Unfettered: Walking through walls. Walking through walls... I know, I know... it's 18th level. I just have to get my head around walking through solid matter. I could imagine a physicist using knowledge of string theory doing an EX version of that, and I can see escape artist skill of god like proportions letting you see that brief moment in a cyclical feedback loop of a sustained spell allowing you to slip through a gap in a forcecage...
But walking through walls.. argh.. yeah. I know. I should just accept it, but it's still nagging at me.
Haha.
Loving the approach! This is exactly the mindset that we need when approaching a rewrite of these classes abilities.
If we are agreeing that there's a major issue with a class' narrative power and validity in CR, then we can't compare it to the original in any way. We have to compare to other things, such as: what other classes are capable of; what encounters he will face at a given level.A bunch of what you have listed there looks like stuff the Spy Master prestige class does. Which is awesome! That class had some AMAZING abilities that almost never get seen because of the otherwise little used concept of a prestige.
The only abilities I have a bit of quibble over would be the following:
Network of Contacts: Not really a mechanical quibble, but an impact to roleplaying one. It forces a particular concept onto every rogue build, and forces some assumptions on the game world. Feels better as an archetype ability to allow some rogue builds have access instead of requiring "the average" rogue this way.
Unfettered: Walking through walls. Walking through walls... I know, I know... it's 18th level. I just have to get my head around walking through solid matter. I could imagine a physicist using knowledge of string theory doing an EX version of that, and I can see escape artist skill of god like proportions letting you see that brief moment in a cyclical feedback loop of a sustained spell allowing you to slip through a gap in a forcecage...
But walking through walls.. argh.. yeah. I know. I should just accept it, but it's still nagging at me.
Haha.
Seconded on all accounts. Network of contacts doesn't really force a niche on all rogues, just the ones who took Leadership (and that explanation is still reflavorable), it otherwise just says the rogue get contacts inside every decently established area/outpost/town; flavor was just the issue that rubbed people be it people found the contacts extremely quickly with their skillz or because for some in character reason they already had them. With unfettered, I would say switch this and the rogues capstone ability, the core rogue capstone is not a capstone and this is; walking through walls does seem somehow magical, and at worst it could just be a partial Su class ability, but still not something ridiculous or game breaking. Also, you seem to misunderstand what string theory is... what it would seem is more that the rogue uses quantum entanglement to reform himself on the opposite side of the wall from air particles (within a certain range) and as we know, the old particle that make up the rogue cease to exist as the new one forms; that also brings up the question of how the magic in the items transfer or what "magic" really is, but its still a fantasy game after all.
In an urban game the 10th level ability with leadership basically reads "I am the GM now."
In every game in any setting, the higher-level spell descriptions say the same thing.
leadership is banned as every sane GM should
I've never had a problem with it as GM.
The 10th level ability makes you explicitly a criminal, which means you can't be in the same party as a paladin unless he's comically obtuse.
Then reflavor it. You're a spymaster with MI-6, or whatever.
You may be immune to divination, but you run around with a wizard and a cleric who aren't.
A wizard who gets mind blank.
There's a reason rogue fixes aim at combat: that's where the rogue fails.
And there are already enough suggestions on how to do that: I don't need to add more. So the point of this particular thread is specifically not to focus on that, as you can see in the opening sentence.
I'm fine with buffing the rogue's combat potential, but simply making him better in combat isn't going to salvage the class.
They're serviceable out of combat even when overshadowed.
We clearly disagree on this point.
leadership is banned as every sane GM shouldI've never had a problem with it as GM.
The 10th level ability makes you explicitly a criminal, which means you can't be in the same party as a paladin unless he's comically obtuse.Then reflavor it. You're a spymaster with MI-6, or whatever.
The ability almost explicitly states you don't even get the leadership people as followers, just as people you can reap benefits from (which is likely to bring in questions as to gold flow, but it also states most of that goes to maintaining the "guild". Atarlost's points are of closed-minded rules-lawyering.
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I like the idea.
I'd like to point out a few things:
Rerolls being too strong: take a look at the witch's fortune / misfortune hex. Which allows you to use the "better" roll for allies and force the enemy to take the worse roll.
I really like the "luck" idea, having luck is a part of the rogue in most stories.
I'd also like to give the rogue some more options, like allowing him to apply some status effects, esp. stuff that makes the opponent go "huh" and lose it's turn.
Some sort of shadow step (skip 10 feet as part of move action) that grants a sneak attack, if the enemy got "jumped through" might be interesting as well.
I really like the "luck" idea, having luck is a part of the rogue in most stories.
I'd also like to give the rogue some more options, like allowing him to apply some status effects, esp. stuff that makes the opponent go "huh" and lose it's turn.Some sort of shadow step (skip 10 feet as part of move action) that grants a sneak attack, if the enemy got "jumped through" might be interesting as well.
Those probably qualify as combat shenanigans and was intentionally left out of the thread.
The shadow step thing is already covered by a rogue talent and the acrobatics skill, so maybe just a boost to acrobatics since it gets pretty ridiculously underpowered later.
Are those actual arguments, you're complaining as if the GM is unable to do any rational thought, imbalances both across abilities in classes and on the overall power of classes don't already exist (the former being reasonable, the latter a design flaw), and level one spells don't already auto-succeed at things that a level 20 skill monkey only can do with a lucky roll.
The "thieves den" wont stop a tarrasque any better a 10th level character would, a GM recognizes that and also recognizes that the ability never said anything that implies what you are saying. The immunity to poisons and disease is probably more powerful that immunity to divination because which comes up in every other encounter and which comes up once a campaign if at all. All social magic does not become irrelevant as you say because not everyone gets the check, not everyone can pass the check, and it lasts for hours if not days which long after it would continue to matter anyway. (Are you seriously saying the skill is better when you do not get the time to talk? Diplomacy requires 1d4 hours combat or no combat, bluff requires enough time to form a complex lie that's believable or a standard to make them think you're dead (which still takes the -20 if you just possum it), and intimidate just makes them shaken; meanwhile, charm person is a standard action, a combat action, not 50+% of 6 seconds.)
The Tarrasque cannot murder or destroy property in your rogue's city without his permission.
If I divine it correctly amidst the diatribe, your issue here seems to be that the rules text is not sufficiently well polished yet. If that's the case, I agree. I think it's clear to almost everyone else that this thread represents an idea to be developed and discussed, not a finished rules amendment.
It's difficult for me to separate your comments of "this idea is fundamentally flawed because X, and will therefore never work" from your comments of "here's a bizarre loophole that can cause Y but only if I intentionally read things cockeyed, so that loophole needs to be closed." Both are useful comments, but they're useful in different ways and at different times, so lumping them all together makes it a lot more difficult me to sort out any useful recommendations.
you're complaining as if the GM is unable to do any rational thought
My opinion is that final rules text should indeed assume that as much as possible. But the OP is nowhere near the point of providing final rules text; it's a spitballing of ideas on how to bolster the rogues "schtick."
you're complaining as if the GM is unable to do any rational thoughtMy opinion is that final rules text should indeed assume that as much as possible. But the OP is nowhere near the point of providing final rules text; it's a spitballing of ideas on how to bolster the rogues "schtick."
The difference is someone being able understand how something works and being able to tell if something sounds reasonable: an ability granting you to a network of contacts is what's understood by the ability in question and also makes sense as to why the rogue gets it; Having a bunch of henchmen stand up to a rampaging tarrasque is understandable how it would happen, but is both not implicated by the ability and it is not reasonable that a rag-tag team of street thugs would be able to stop a tarrasque. Thus my point.
I don't like the Leadership NPC one but I love the rest.