I am struggling with random monsters and random encounters in my campaign that I am running.
On one hand, I want the world to be open to the PCs and not everything that happens to you will be relevant to the main hook or story plot. Also, having some random stuff might create some red herrings. However, I tend to shy away from running encounters or map areas that are not part of the story ... after all, we only have so much gaming time and I am always excited about moving the story forward.
So how do you feel about fillerr encounters? Do they sometimes become part of your main story? Do you leave them out?
Thanks for any comments you might have.
I love random encounters. Especially charts.
What is it about them? If you wander off into the woods in search of adventure who knows what you'll find. If the characters turn left instead of right like I was anticipating, random encounter chart for help.
Characters a little light in xp or treasure and the BBEG is coming up shortly, random encounter...
Players looking bored because the last 3 encounters have run out about the same way, random encounter...
You get the idea.
Also, they are great for inspiration. We've had reaccuring NPC, villains, stories have changed direction becuase of them.
They don't all need to be deadly killing machines out to wipe out the party either.
No. I *hate* filler encounters. I like big, set-piece, plot-important encounters.
Don't use 'em as a DM, find them irritating as a player.
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Random encounters, sometimes. Random monsters, no. I hate, both as a DM and player those d% charts that determine what monster you run into. I occasionally use random encounters if the session has been pretty RP heavy, and some of the players seem to be getting listless, but I usually draw them from a pre-preped list of encounters that are both level and setting appropriate.
Random encounters are terrible if they are truly random, disconnected nonsense. Most GMs run them this way--just rolling on a chart and throwing in a meaningless battle.
However, Random Encounters are pure gold if handled properly--they should be a jumping off point, not just an extra pile of XP/loot. They should fit into the game's overall story and flesh out the setting more.
Let's say you roll up a bandit attack. Run badly, this is just a random attack by some throwaway dudes the party whips and is done with. Done right, this is the start of an entire bandit related subplot--why are there bandits here? Are they part of a larger organization? Why did they attack such a well armed group of adventurers? Maybe they're desperate? Maybe some local political situation forced people into desperate banditry?
There are endless possibilities if you do it right.
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The way I do encounters that aren't set-pieces; I make up a handful of encounters that I can grab and stick in where appropriate. Normally, I use these to fill out the ranks of the storyline, such as for the kobold invasion I'm currently running--I have a couple of scripted encounters, and a handful of kobold bands that I can use whenever. It doesn't matter if the players turn left or right, because they don't know what's in store for them in either direction, so I can put things in front of them that I want them to see, or fight. There are choices, sometimes, between things they encounter, but most of the time I find that I can present choices that ultimately lead to the same conclusion while they still feel they have made a real choice.
For "random" encounters, like creatures in the wilderness, I'd just do the same thing with the idea that I'd drop in encounter X or Y after some amount of time has gone by, or when the players appear to be fading or some such. You know, make up a fight with a bear, a pack of wolves, maybe someone running through the woods fleeing from a hydra.
That's kind of how random encounter tables work, I guess, but I prefer to have a little more control over what happens and when than just rolling a d% every hour or so.
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You could keep it old school. Forests and hills are tremendously dangerous, but settled lands are mostly fine and safe.
As a dm, I like to work out the monsters of my region, and make it all make a form of sense. So it is less random, but they may rock up at the worst time.
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My main beef with the random encounter tables is the way old, badly designed ones would sometimes pit level 1 or 2 characters against stuff way out of their league. I know they're better now, but it's hardly any more work to make encounters that I know work, than roll on a table, and hope it works out.
It can still happen for kingmaker. Multiple groups have got the will'o'wisp way too early.
Ahh, but they can be great additions to the central plot, or lead to side-quests.
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When I GM, I don't use random encounters. Thematically, I don't like them. Also, I don't like to spend my group's precious gaming time on filler that isn't tied to the plot.
-Skeld
Depends on your goals. If the plot is the only thing that really matters to you, then that makes sense. But if you are interested in conveying the sense that the players exist in a dynamic world, extraneous encounters are fairly important.
Depends on your goals. If the plot is the only thing that really matters to you, then that makes sense. But if you are interested in conveying the sense that the players exist in a dynamic world, extraneous encounters are fairly important.When I GM, I don't use random encounters. Thematically, I don't like them. Also, I don't like to spend my group's precious gaming time on filler that isn't tied to the plot.
-Skeld
This is a good post. The campaign I am running now is story driven without room for random encounters. Everything has a purpose or advances the story. The PCs have choices and encounters can turn out differently or not occur depending on the order in which they are performed, but I still have no encounters that are not tied to the plot.
As this campaign winds down, I was wondering if I could just set up a world and let the PCs explore it. If they run into life forms that happen to exist but have nothing to do with the story, then so be it. This type of adventure would require a lot of creativity and quick reactions on my part. I am not sure really how it would turn out, but I want to try it.
Yes. As a player and as a GM I enjoy random encounters.
As a GM I use them less than I'd like. Usually because I take the time to make my own random encounter charts and I don't always have the time.
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Like many things, random encounters can be used for good or ill.
Bad
- Slavish devotion to the random result on any list.
- Wildly random encounters, common in older material, that have vastly underpowered, vastly overpowered, or nonsensical enemies.
"Don't cross the Grey Woods at night!"
"Why not? I thought they were just full of hobgoblins."
"Because the nighttime encounters table has a 1% chance per hour of encountering Orcus, the Chaotic Evil Lord of the Underworld." - Random encounters that interrupt the players' sense of progress toward their goals. (Interrupting the characters' progress is fine, since it's frequently those difficulties which make the story interesting for the players.
Good
- The exercise of good judgement when using lists. Sometimes the best "random" encounter is one the GM chooses from a list.
- Variety for the players! If the plot is all about fighting demons in caves, then finding a place to fit in an outdoor battle lets the character with flight stretch his wings, and encountering a dire animal gives the ranger or druid the spotlight - If the plot is all about humanoids, fit in some outsiders for the Paladin,
- Variety for the GM! Sometimes you just get a brilliant idea for an encounter. Great, use it!
- Ideas. Reading or rolling on a list can be a great way to brainstorm encounter ideas. Take inspiration wherever you can get it.
- Filler. Sometimes the players just want to smash some faces; sometimes the GM just wants to give out some treasure. One or both of these conditions can occur when "the plot" isn't ready for it.
I have mixed feelings as a player, they can be fun and switch things up, and lead to the "Holy crap, I wasn't expecting to fight 6 Hyrdas on my way to town!" but on the other hand, our "travelling" sessions usually consist of rolling for random encounters every 10 miles we travel, on a 200 mile jaunt, that's 20 random encounters, back to back to back to back to back to back, none of which get us any closer to the plot, we essentially just wander around killing lots of things, for very little reason, where as I would prefer not to waste 4 gaming sessions walking from point A to point B.
They're great for netting us xp and loot, but on the flip side, sometimes they make things stupidly fatal, especially since due to the random nature of them you may go from one big fight to another, with your dailies nearly tapped. Once we reached our destination after 4 high-risk, encounters, we only survived because we pulled out all the stops, used some consumables, etc... then had to choose whether we camped and rested up at the entrance to the necromancer's lair, or if we pressed on. I'm not a fan of them in that case.
Truly random encounters rarely work all that well, but having either a chart or a list of potential side encounters appropriate to the overall situation is very helpful in fleshing out the world, especially when the players and/or DM feel like random exploration and/or the plot needs in game time to brew before advancing it farther. Done well, they add a lot to the campaign and world, even if you never touch the material from that encounter again directly. One thing I've noticed that helps these a lot is not assuming that encounter = combat, something a lot of the older charts were strongly guilty of. Some of the more interesting encounters are environmental challenges or random NPCs that are simply going about their daily business.
[...] our "travelling" sessions usually consist of rolling for random encounters every 10 miles we travel, on a 200 mile jaunt, that's 20 random encounters, back to back to back to back to back to back, none of which get us any closer to the plot, we essentially just wander around killing lots of things, for very little reason, where as I would prefer not to waste 4 gaming sessions walking from point A to point B.
Wait... so your DM doesn't just say "Ok, so you travel for [x] days and *roll dice and pretend to look at the result as if it matters* you encounter no threats"?** I thought that was standard issue in the DMG.
(**or insert similar false randomness for if he's planning to do an encounter on the way)
As my friend once told me when I was learning to gamemaster "90% of DMing is rolling dice behind the screen, and looking at them as if they matter"
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[...] our "travelling" sessions usually consist of rolling for random encounters every 10 miles we travel, on a 200 mile jaunt, that's 20 random encounters, back to back to back to back to back to back, none of which get us any closer to the plot, we essentially just wander around killing lots of things, for very little reason, where as I would prefer not to waste 4 gaming sessions walking from point A to point B.Wait... so your DM doesn't just say "Ok, so you travel for [x] days and *roll dice and pretend to look at the result as if it matters* you encounter no threats"?** I thought that was standard issue in the DMG.
(**or insert similar false randomness for if he's planning to do an encounter on the way)
As my friend once told me when I was learning to gamemaster "90% of DMing is rolling dice behind the screen, and looking at them as if they matter"
That's one school of thought on DM'ing.
There's another school, which I subscribe to, which holds that you should play it straight as a DM. If you say you're going to to use dice to determine a result, use dice to determine a result. Otherwise use GM fiat to determine a result.
I think it leads to greater GM-Player trust and a better experience.
Depends on your flavour.
There is something to be said about meeting Orcus at midnight, though that might derail your main plot. But if your game is a looser set of adventures, this meeting with Orcus becomes a fantastic plank to launch an adventure.
As would the bandits (as mentioned above) or whatever. An old school game of noble mercs wandering around the land, seeking out adventure can be a ton of fun, and random encounters can be a great part of that. You create a map, start the characters off in an inn somewhere in the middle, offer them 3-4 dungeon hooks and let them go where they please, having a few preplanned hooks in each region and just free form it, building a BBEG with his mark on a few of the adventure (the bandits have a couple of magic swords with his insignia, the necromancer that's been raising the village cemetery has a chest of gold from him, etc.). This creates an essentially random set of encounters that you macguyver into an epic.
The old school ethic also acknowledges that sometimes you gotta run away. Expeditious retreat is called such because it was designed to give you more combat maneuverability.
But if you like to keep a tight reign on the plot and like delicate threads of intrigue and more immersive role-playing, I agree, randoms can be a time sink.
You really got to play to your group's sensibilities: if they think it's awesome to stumble across and kick the snot out of a hill giant hunting party while their looking for the entrance to an ancient ruin, let'er rip. If they think that it's a waste of precious resources and dull, don't bother.
I know a dm that did that. Once a foolish lone wizard charged something way about his pay grade. The dm didn't want him forced into combat, but in he went.
I don't think it works very well in pathfinder, although I like them in AD&D/etcetera. In games where gold is worth experience, wandering monsters are to be avoided as an unprofitable resource drain. It basically stops you from walking around the dungeon checking for traps every ten feet and requires a little more judicious thought in that regard.
In games (like PF) where defeating monsters has more (relative) reward, there's less reason to avoid them, meaning they lose their motivational value.
If there are rumors that Orcus will occasionally visit a certain forest in the middle of the night, then I would probably avoid the forest at night too, or I would bring sacrifices worthy of a god to appease him, just in case. As long as the option exists in the game to discover this information, then having above APL encounters is fine.
One of the main expectations of PF is that when monsters are encountered, fights happen. The fact that there is no system to determine distance away an encounter begins sort of shows that they are not expecting groups to, say, see a group of strong enemies in the distance and run away before getting attacked.
Also, the random encounters can be tied to a main plot pretty easily. I rolled up a tiger in the middle of some Baltic-esque woods. The question is then raised: How did a tiger get here? This leads to a little more connection to the world. There was a Druid academy near by, so maybe it was actually a companion, and the Druid was nearby. Maybe there was an animal enclosure so the trainee druids could develop that knowledge nature as a class skill, and this specimen escapes. While it is still a minor side-quest, it should not feel like it is not possibly attached to your story unless you choose not to try to attach it.
While I dont know if they actually need to be 'random' I think non set peice encounters are an important part of the game. First and foremost not every encounter can be something dms spend hours planning. That just isnt a rational use of a dm's time. Sometimes you just need to pop a few monsters in a clearing and let the party go at it. Its important in fact to do this given the expections of 3-4 encounters a day. If the party starts retreating after 2 encounters every day to rest, its time to park a few 'random' encounters their way to keep their resources appropriately taxed for the day.
In one mid-level game, to avoid random encounters I had my character dig a hole. Place their bag of holding down, jumped inside and rest with their head out, but comforted and hidden.
zzzzzz
Dm was amused, no random encounters that night.
Later though, another night, there was. So it was amusing when someone strode into a seemingly abandoned camp, and a ninja moved the covering aside, stood up silently, and asked the visitor how they were on this fine night. From a few rocks and leaves, suddenly a ninja!
While I dont know if they actually need to be 'random' I think non set peice encounters are an important part of the game. First and foremost not every encounter can be something dms spend hours planning. That just isnt a rational use of a dm's time. Sometimes you just need to pop a few monsters in a clearing and let the party go at it. Its important in fact to do this given the expections of 3-4 encounters a day. If the party starts retreating after 2 encounters every day to rest, its time to park a few 'random' encounters their way to keep their resources appropriately taxed for the day.This argument always bothers me.
If the party feels their weakened enough after 2 encounters that they need to rest, but finds when they do so they're threatened by a couple more encounters, why is the expected reaction to push on farther so that they're even more weakened when they retreat to rest? Shouldn't they be saving even more resources for the now expected randam encounters?
That is the point, the party should be forced to concerve resources. Too often encounters are 'too easy' because characters will expend large amounts of resources on a single encounter, then retreat to rest. They are SUPPOSED to need to concerve their resources for unexpected encounters and not be able to dictate the pace of the adventure. That's the dms job.
If you are saying that the party will stop even earlier because they now feel they have to concerve more, the point of random enocunters is to shock them out of the behavior. After they have been forced to deal with a couple encounters past their 'comfort zone' they will realize that they can better manage their resources (hopefully) and go longer over the course of the day without having to rest every 15 minutes.
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Random encounters serve numerous purposes.
1. Reminding the party that the world is active. ("Man, why did Grogmar the Destroyer send this ankhegs at us." "I think they just lived here, pal, he's not responsible for everything."
2. Representing a disincentive against the "nova." If you spend the rest of the day with no resources, it'll be tough when those random encounters show.
3. Wider breadth of experience. DMs tend to fall into ruts. Every DM I've ever seen has preferences, giants, outsiders, humanoids. The random encounter lets things get shaken up a little.
Being a 40k fan, I'm used to the gamists of that particular hobby complaining about randomization throwing off 'the game.' Random encounters should do the same. They should stymie attempts to mathematize the Pathfinder experience. They should throw things like encounter design, pacing and the like off kilter at times.
One time, I flubbed up a teleport roll, winding up in a "similar area" to the trackless jungle I was trying to find. The DM decided to roll on the random encounter chart and got the vaunted 00 - roll twice and combine. My wizard faced a dire boar and a mummy. (The DM figured the boar was its pet or something.) I ended up teleporting away, but not before getting gored a few times. The mummy didn't actually join the encounter, probably mercifully.
It was a good story, and definitely led to safer teleporting habits. I think random encounters have their place. It's probably not slavish adherence to the charts and the hourly percent rolls, but they can be nice sometimes.
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Something I might note is that in a tabletop RPG an "encounter" - random or not - doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to break down into combat. My players frequently find characters (including monsters) doing their own thing out in the wild. Sometimes it's just nice to see that the world is alive around you. For example, I once had a party that was 1st level and traveling through the wild. They saw an Ettin (the two headed giants) hunting deer off in the distance (this actually wasn't a random encounter but just some scenery I decorated the trip with, but random encounters are good for this sort of thing too). Unfortunately the monk player (he was new I admit) decided that Ettins are monsters and if they saw one it must mean they can fight and defeat it and should do so. The monk shall be missed. The Ettin didn't even have to finish his deer hunt, for clearly his gods had delivered a meal right into his arms. XD
In another adventure, a pair of adventurers were traveling and saw some worgs in the distance. They shot at them and caused them to run off. Later during their camping period they heard what sounded like a woman screaming for help. When the pair rode out towards the edge of the forest to investigate the worgs sprang their trap and slaughtered their horses. Frantically the two adventurers scrambled up a tree. They sat in that tree as the worgs teased them for days, living off the trail rations and water in their backpack. The worgs were taking shifts waiting for them to come down from the tree, and would eat their latest hunts in front of the very hungry pair ('cause they're jerkasses like that :P).
However the unusual worg activity attracted the attention of the forest unicorns who came and curbstomped them some worgs and drove them off and allowed the pair to get down. They still talk about that adventure with great glee, laughing about them being stuck in that tree and chucking alchemist bombs at the worgs when they got too close.
Random encounters can be great tools for creating more fun-filled and harrowing adventures. It's really just how you choose to use them.
The purpose of random encounters is to keep players on their toes if you think they've read the adventure.
Personally, I prefer 'random' encounters where I choose an encounter that isn't too similar to what the PCs have fought recently or what's coming up next. If you I what the random encounter will be, I can look it up in advance and prepare properly.
So how do you feel about fillerr encounters? Do they sometimes become part of your main story? Do you leave them out?
Thanks for any comments you might have.
I like them sparingly. And as has been mentioned, they're encounters, not battles. We met a unicorn once who was helpful off a rolled encounter. The DM was cool enough to fold it into the story. One of our paladins was sex attacked by a nymph on one while some party members got blinded. They can be fun if they're used right. Used wrong and they slow down the game and burn the PC's resources and the players' time at the table.
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Yeah, I kind of get that's the theory, I just can't see how it works. At least without some metagame assumption that you won't use random encounters if they keep pushing on long enough to make you happy.
Except the whole 15 minute work day is already a metagame concept. No one in any story ever has walked through the woods for 10 minutes, got into a fight with a bear and then some wolves, and then said Oh...well...time to rest... Yes you are countering metagame with metagame but it works, so long as you know, you talk to your players.
I much prefer reactive settings to random encounters as a way to set the pace. I'd rather have the party worrying about what the inhabitants of the dungeon are doing to refortify or seek them out while they're resting, than about something unrelated wandering upon them in the night.
If there's always a good chance something dangerous will hit them while they're resting, then they won't dare even use up resources in the serious encounters where they're supposed to. After all, even after 5 or 6 encounters and then beating the epic BBEG fight, you could roll a couple APL+ encounters while trying to rest.
Keep in mind when i say random, i dont mean actually rolling for them, i just mean non-plot relavent encounters. It is reasonable to make clear to your players that you will maintain appropriate encounter pacing whether they try to rest or not. And if they clear two rooms and retreat from a dungeon, something new might be in those rooms the next day.
That said, I dont see players suddenly going into super hoard mode just because they are uncertain. When facing an impossible encounter they'll expend resources, they just will think twice about blowing their whole wad in any one fight.
Is the thought process really supposed to be: We fought a couple of fights, were low on spells, so rested and got smeared by some randoms in the night. Obviously we need to use up less in each fight, but then do more fights so we're still just as used up when we get attacked in the middle of the night?
Random encounters dont have to just happen in the night. They could for instance be waiting for you in the next room that you already fought in yesterday. But again, the thought process is 'yea if we stop after 2 hours of adventuring our dm may very well drop another owl bear on our heads. Maybe we should keep going and see what we can get done today.'
Noblejohn, look up Hex Crawl type supplements. I know Frog God games has a line. Here's a big map, a bunch of stuff that happens in certain hexes when the PCs enter it, and it doesn't have to tie to a specific plot.
I do like random encounters, because the world is random. You're going to the grocery store, get stopped at a red light, get rear-ended by someone not paying attention. You go to the airport heading to PaizoCon, and you get picked for the random "let's get the exam gloves out" check. You're walking to the library and see a $10 bill on the ground.
Not every battle is one of their choosing, on the perfect battleground, against a "fair" opponent(s).
Now, I also don't run Pathfinder. I go with more old-school games (Castles & Crusades is my current game). Combats go a lot faster when players don't have to look over a list of feats or a tactical battle grip trying to decide what trick to pull out next and where to maneuver to maximise AOOs, reach weapons, and flanking bonuses.
As for the "15 minute" adventuring day . . . well, intelligent adversaries take advantage of the downtime. Goblins can sneak and scout too, you know.
No.
Random encounters don't feel random at all if the "table" you draw them from is closely tied to the environment. Also, it is up to you, the GM to turn that 4= Brigands into something unique. Again if the chart is well designed and the "encounters' entries (note the use of encounter instead of monsters) has some clues as to how to operate with the rolled result, you can have real fun and enrich your campaign.
In this regard I do like very much how the guys at Frog God Games design their random encounters.
They are long posts but here you have two brilliant ways of managing random encounters in the same adventure: Rappan Athuk.
http://paizo.com/campaigns/GMBloodsRappanAthukPF/gameplay&page=17
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pn6y&page=last?Abandoned-Arts-Runs-Rappan- Athuk-Campaign
Nice, LazarX. Niiice.
Reminds me of the Futurama in which Gary Gygax turns to Fry and says, "It's a..." (rolls 1d20+1d6, and consults it) "...pleasure to meet you."
Also the episode where we learned Al Gore is a level 10 Vice President. Unfortunately for him, he didn't meet the requirements for the President Prestige Class, so he went on to take levels in Druid.