The Bard is not OP. Countersong is not OP. But it is BROKEN, because in certain circumstances it wins everything forever and in some it is completely and utterly WORTHLESS.FIFY
I'd be inclined to agree, actually. It's broken in the opposite direction. The vast, vast majority of the time it's completely and utterly useless.
But then some guy starts Suggesting your party...
I'm disagreeing with your use of the term "broken" to mean "situational." The rulebooks are full of things that are situationally useful but otherwise useless. They make the game interesting.
It's more than situational, however.
It IS situational, but more than that it's only useful in a VERY niche situation. Countersong only fits that part of it. I explained the other "criteria" across other posts as I got my thoughts together.
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If the other criteria are that it changes fundamental rules of the game, then most feats, spells, and class abilities are also broken.
I think that's not what "broken" means. I think it means "makes the game unplayable." I think it's excessive hyberbole to use the term to refer to things that work just fine in play. Just because somebody at some point made a houserule about it doesn't make it broken. Just because it's situational doesn't make it broken. Just because it changes or circumvents another rule doesn't make it broken.
Just to get some rules in this discussion:"Slumber (Su): A witch can cause a creature within 30 feet to fall into a deep, magical sleep, as per the spell sleep. The creature receives a Will save to negate the effect. If the save fails, the creature falls asleep for a number of rounds equal to the witch's level. This hex can affect a creature of any HD. The creature will not wake due to noise or light, but others can rouse it with a standard action. This hex ends immediately if the creature takes damage. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day."
"Sleep
School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting];
...
Sleep does not target unconscious creatures, constructs, or undead creatures." *snip*So, Slumber functions as the spell sleep. So it cannot target unconscious, construct, or undead at all. Additionally, it is an enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting] effect. Second, Slumber is a Supernatural ability. It still is explicitly magical in nature. Therefore, elves, half-elves and other things immune to magical sleep or magic specifically, can not be affected by the slumber hex.
This is one possible interpretation of the rules, however, it isn't the only one (elves being immune to it is clearly RAW though). However, it does not say "this ability works like the sleep spell", it says they _fall asleep_ as the sleep spell. This could just as easily be interpreted as the specific sleep effect (there's not an "asleep" condition, which is why sleep abilities generally refer to the sleep spell) of the ability working like it does with sleep, in regards to waking and such. It does not necessitate that the school, subschool and designations of the ability are the same as that of the spell.
(Su) abilities that are effects of a certain school are fairly rare in the game and seem to be explicitly stated as such where they appear. It would not be unreasonable to rule that Slumber is a supernatural ability without a school, subschool, designation or spell level.
It was years back but we walked into a werecked ship, the big baddie was a Goblin with support crew. Their leader was back row, I walked within 30, sleep hexxed him, the rest of our group ran to him and CDG, the rest of the crew gave up and fled ...or something, I cant remember
So, in other words, “years ago” you had one encounter where your DM didn’t run the minions properly AND got a natural one on a save, and from this single encounter- that you don't remember well- you have decided this class is broken beyond repair…..??
To be fair, you can move, then standard action (start a full-round action CdG) and your next turn standard action (finish full-round action CdG).
Regardless, plenty of time for a henchgoblin to wake up the boss before he is impaled.
Sorta...
Round 1 you cast a hex that hits, and move to the opponent.
Round 2 you begin your CDG - and at L1 the opponent wakes up and stops it.
Round 3 If level >1, you complete your CDG.
OR
A level 2 Fighter has now killed 2-3 creatures in the same time on average.
It's just not THAT sexy.
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If the other criteria are that it changes fundamental rules of the game, then most feats, spells, and class abilities are also broken.
Not quite. Most Feats, spells, and class abilities change no fundamental assumptions of the game. For the most part, no Feat or class ability requires a change of tactics (the big exception being some Combat Maneuvers), while spells that fundamentally change the game when they are acquired are assumed to be available by the game when they would normally appear, and most official material goes forward with the assumption that those will be available.
I think that's not what "broken" means. I think it means "makes the game unplayable."
That is a game breaker, it is something different. If the Slumber Hex could affect multiple targets, had no range limit, and required no save, it would be a game breaker.
I think it's excessive hyberbole to use the term to refer to things that work just fine in play. Just because somebody at some point made a houserule about it doesn't make it broken. Just because it's situational doesn't make it broken. Just because it changes or circumvents another rule doesn't make it broken.
Forget Slumber for a second. I was trying to work it into what I was saying and it didn't work at all.
The point was that if it does NOT work fine in play BECAUSE it subverts a fundamental assumption of the game, then it is broken.
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The point was that if it does NOT work fine in play BECAUSE it subverts a fundamental assumption of the game, then it is broken.
Many options can be considered broken by some group some where if that is the case.
Working fine in play is also a group to group issue which takes us back to one of my other post stating that what is ok for one group may not be ok for another group.
To be fair, you can move, then standard action (start a full-round action CdG) and your next turn standard action (finish full-round action CdG).
Regardless, plenty of time for a henchgoblin to wake up the boss before he is impaled.
Sorta...
Round 1 you cast a hex that hits, and move to the opponent.
Round 2 you begin your CDG - and at L1 the opponent wakes up and stops it.
Round 3 If level >1, you complete your CDG.OR
A level 2 Fighter has now killed 2-3 creatures in the same time on average.
It's just not THAT sexy.
Round 1, You probably have to move then hex to get within 30'. (Most combats I've seen have the combatants between 30-60' away)
Round 2, you move up and standard action CdG.Round 3, standard action finish CdG, move away.
Alternate
Round 2 you move up and standard action CdG.
Round 2 henchman of BBEG moves up and standard action wakes him up, interrupting the CdG.
well at least this is not about fighters, rogues or monks
I was playing a game as a Witch, basic build, I really cant remember it right now but the part I DO remember is having picked the Sleep hex.
I voluntarily retired the character after we got to the leader of the band of bad guys (the boss fight), I got within 30 feet, Sleep Hexxed him, he rolled a 1 on the Will, the rest of the party walked up and coupe-de-graced him to death
Now I get you play as a spellcaster , you can get the Sleep spell, but that has a hard limit of 4 HD. The Sleep Hex doesnt.
There was another guy who made a Witch who knew every single first level spell (I cant remember how but it was all legal, our DM went over it with a fine toothed comb when he say how thick his spell list was).
This class seems to need some fine tuning to make it in line with the rest. Is that just our limited experiences?
Most of the new classes seem to have this issue. They just dont seem to scale well in comparison with the rest of the base classes
I don't feel like reading the whole thread so I'll answer your question real simple.
There are threads on this form every single day asking if X class is OP, the answer is always the same. It depends on who is playing the character and if they have min/maxed uber-optimized and tried to utilize loopholes in the rules to get what they want.
The witch class by itself with the sleep hex is NOT OP.
Alternate
Round 2 you move up and standard action CdG.
Round 2 henchman of BBEG moves up and standard action wakes him up, interrupting the CdG.
Alternate 2
Witch moves up and begins CDG, all the BBEG's bodyguards AOO Witch; Witch dies, bodyguards wake BBEGIt just isn't that sexy is it?
Protracted, risky, all comes down to one saving throw that is made half the time or better...
OP? I think not.
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Ive seen some hideously broken Gunslingers for instance (I was a mage casting a 6D6 fireball, the Gunslinger was using alchemic rounds or something and douing about twice my max damage - per shot), Magus who somehow got more HP than the Barbarian in the party at the time -.-Yeah, guns are extremely unbalanced. How good or weak they are depends on "tech level" and wealth far far more than any other combat style or weapon, and the random misfire chances are completely arbitrary and aren't felt if they never happen.
Being able to full attack touch attack and deadly aim it is just insane.
Is it just me, or can a Gunslinger actually get a full attack with a gun? I mean I don't see any way to speed up loading a musket quicker than a move action.
I could see how the Gatling rifle could be powerful if there aren't reload costs associated with it.
....But then again, imagine bringing a gun to a swordfight.
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The point was that if it does NOT work fine in play BECAUSE it subverts a fundamental assumption of the game, then it is broken.
OK, I'll bite, what do you consider the fundamental assumptions of the game?
EDIT: I disagree with your definition of "broken" vs. "game breaker," but that's not something we're going to be able to resolve.
One other thing to keep in mind about witches is that a LOT of their abilities are very short-ranged. Lots of their best spells are Close range; lots of their hexes are "within 30 feet", and cackle both takes a move action AND requires you to be within 30' of the targets whose hexes you are extending. While this isn't (much) of a problem if all of your adventuring is in dungeons with only 20'x20' rooms, if you are up against mobile opponents or ones that start the encounter at a long distance, it's not easy at all to get and stay in range and still do a lot of your best abilities.
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One other thing to keep in mind about witches is that a LOT of their abilities are very short-ranged. Lots of their best spells are Close range; lots of their hexes are "within 30 feet", and cackle both takes a move action AND requires you to be within 30' of the targets whose hexes you are extending. While this isn't (much) of a problem if all of your adventuring is in dungeons with only 20'x20' rooms, if you are up against mobile opponents or ones that start the encounter at a long distance, it's not easy at all to get and stay in range and still do a lot of your best abilities.
More importantly, unlike most other full casters, Witches are truly stymied by Darkness, Invisibility and line of effect. ALL offensive hexes and nearly all of their spells are targeted and the witch can't see them (Darkness, Invisibility) or doesn't have line of effect (A single plane of glass) the witch can't do a thing to them.
With the witches poor AoE spell list and so few none target spells and extremely limited buff/utility spells any prepared enemy can easily shut down most of this classes power.Throw on top of that their inability to handle undead, constructs and the class is seriously hosed. (I personally rank them a tier 2 class no matter how fun to play they are).
The point was that if it does NOT work fine in play BECAUSE it subverts a fundamental assumption of the game, then it is broken.OK, I'll bite, what do you consider the fundamental assumptions of the game?
EDIT: I disagree with your definition of "broken" vs. "game breaker," but that's not something we're going to be able to resolve.
There are really too many to name. "To kill something with weapons you must do HP damage." "One shot kill spells and abilities necessitate a save for at least partial effect." and so on.
There are really too many to name. "To kill something with weapons you must do HP damage." "One shot kill spells and abilities necessitate a save for at least partial effect." and so on.The point was that if it does NOT work fine in play BECAUSE it subverts a fundamental assumption of the game, then it is broken.OK, I'll bite, what do you consider the fundamental assumptions of the game?
EDIT: I disagree with your definition of "broken" vs. "game breaker," but that's not something we're going to be able to resolve.
So wait, what about slumber subverts an assumption about the game? It requires a will save. Any arcanist can match it, and often with more potency. With 3-5 encounters a day, this isn't a big issue for the old spell list.
Doesn't does it? ;p
So wait, what about slumber subverts an assumption about the game? It requires a will save. Any arcanist can match it, and often with more potency. With 3-5 encounters a day, this isn't a big issue for the old spell list.There are really too many to name. "To kill something with weapons you must do HP damage." "One shot kill spells and abilities necessitate a save for at least partial effect." and so on.The point was that if it does NOT work fine in play BECAUSE it subverts a fundamental assumption of the game, then it is broken.OK, I'll bite, what do you consider the fundamental assumptions of the game?
EDIT: I disagree with your definition of "broken" vs. "game breaker," but that's not something we're going to be able to resolve.
It subverts the assumption that any possible instant encounter ending spells or abilities generally have a limited use.
But like I said, Slumber was poorly worked in as an example.
Note that Coup de Grace is a full round action so the opposition would have a chance to wake him up before the PCs killed him
That's why you don't use it until an ally is already in melee with the enemy.
Or, ready to use it when the foe moves into melee with someone, thus robbing him of his attack/action *and* leaving him ripe for the picking by whoever he was trying to go attack.
THAT could just have been the DM too; he seemed to think that guns got touch AC on any range, not just the first 30 feet.
If it was an advanced firearm, then it targets touch for the first five range increments. Advanced firearm reload requirements are also to reload the weapon to full capacity; it's a move action to reload the gun to full, and if they somehow reduce it further then they could arguably fire more frequently.
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I am playing a witch at the moment in a Carrion Crown Adventure Path and find the hexes to be fine. I have intentionally not taken cackle, evil eye, fortune and misfortune as I have a preference for other hexes.
The slumber hex has not been the smoking gun in that campaign as it was in our Curse of the Crimson Throne game as we have been mainly fighting undead. Still, it has been an effective tool, but not one I would say is anywhere near broken.
My biggest complaint with the witch is the spell list. It is a crap spell list (not because it lacks all the best spells) and even lacks some good thematic choices!
Yup. I still don't get why Hideous Laughter is not there. It's thematic AND fits into the "get all teh mind affecting spells!" mechanical aspect.
I see it like this is: wiz> sorc> clr> or> drd> ms> witch...so no. I don't think witch is broken. Weak yes. No niche? Yes. Broken overpowered HA!
Couldn't most classes if you made an entire party of them be devastating? 5 spring t mind that would ruin witches oh more as I type...inquisitor party, pally party , wizard party oracle party , druid party, sorcerer party, master summoner > cough< > cringe< party. In short it ain't putting but a gangster party and a witches cover are but favors to be passed around at said gathering.
Oh more forgot the poor clerics in all that drunken debauchery but yes...a party of wrathful God hammers and evangelists might extol AT LENGTH the error of the witches ways whilst exorcising/evangelizing/hammer dropping/ burning of heretics at stakes.
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Undead:: Dont even get to sleep when their dead. irony defined.
Elves and Drow: Long ears laughs at sleep hex. hee hee that tickles.
Construct: nope
Anything with good saving throw: prob not
Anything with a good saving throw that lived long enough to get balled by evil eye, cackle, misfortune, and finally sleeped. His pain is over. He had a good run. Let him be couped in peace.
Interesting fact:
Slumber, like the Sleep spell, does NOT render the targets unconscious.
They remain standing, holding their weapons.
Seriously.
They ARE helpless, but they don't drop their gear and fall over.
Slumber hex is pretty good, but it has limitations (like range). I've seen it in play, and it is very nice to have on our side, but our Fighter can just hit and kill stuff in one action anyway, so rendering an opponent helpless doesn't 'break' anything.
I suspect the intent is that sleep does cause prone. It's just that the current text doesn't explicitly say so. At any rate, that's a very contentious debate we've had too many times.
I suspect the intent is that sleep does cause prone. It's just that the current text doesn't explicitly say so. At any rate, that's a very contentious debate we've had too many times.
All they had to do was say it rendered the target unconscious. It doesn't say that.
I suspect it was deliberate, as a 1st level effect that renders you helpless, insensate, prone AND disarms you seems a bit much.
Most unconscious things that are standing up fall down.
Most unconscious things that are standing up fall down.
The Sleep spell definitely doesn't inflict the Unconscious condition.
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I fail to see how Slumber is broken imo. Possibly very strong it does have it's limitations.
From the SRD:
A witch can cause a creature within 30 feet to fall into a deep, magical sleep, as per the spell sleep. The creature receives a Will save to negate the effect. If the save fails, the creature falls asleep for a number of rounds equal to the witch’s level.
This hex can affect a creature of any HD. The creature will not wake due to noise or light, but others can rouse it with a standard action. This hex ends immediately if the creature takes damage. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
Sure the hex can target any creature. Unless it's alone anyone can walk it up with a standard action as well if it saves or fails is woken up. They are immune to the hex for 24 hours. Cast a area of effect spell like fireball and they wake up as well. Annoying as hell for a DM to be sure but hardly game breaking.
Most unconscious things that are standing up fall down.
Indeed. I would say almost all. From a rules perspective, I would say ALL.
Sleep (the spell) doesn't make you unconscious.