Is the Witch broken (Op?)


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Question wrote:
I'm playing in a level 3 campaign where 3 out of the first 4 encounters have been totally immune to mind affecting effects. Slumber would not have been very helpful...

Whether Slumber Hex is a mind-affecting ability isn't clear, though. It does reference the sleep spell, but it doesn't say the ability as a whole is the same except for X. It's very much a case of interpretation, but by hard RAW I would say it isn't a mind-affecting effect.

Now, most creature types immune to mind-affecting are also immune to sleep so that doesn't always matter; the only exception seems to be vermin. Vermin are quite common at low levels though.


Wind Chime wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Witches with slumber hex is playing the game on easy mode.
Unless undead, constructs, oozes, dragons, elves,half-eleves plant monsters etc. Sleep immunity is incredibly common.

And many of you are forgetting that a Sorc or Wiz can spam their save or suck spells. If the foe saves vs slumber, he’s immune. Not to mention the witch needs to be within 30’.


K guys, on that wizard and spam. You get 4 Encounters per day. Each encounter last probabli no less than 3 round. At third/fourth level, how the f%!% your wiz get 12 sleeps in a single day that works against 5-6 hd creature like most of the CR 3 have? Even if he prepares nothing else he can't reach that number. And witch can do that and also have like 50 or more extra hp of healing if they prepare nothing else.

And btw on half-elve and elves, slumber is SU so immunity agains magical sleep doesn't work.


Dekalinder wrote:
K guys, on that wizard and spam. You get 4 Encounters per day. Each encounter last probabli no less than 3 round. At third/fourth level, how the f$#$ your wiz get 12 sleeps in a single day that works against 5-6 hd creature like most of the CR 3 have? Even if he prepares nothing else he can't reach that number. And witch can do that and also have like 50 or more extra hp of healing if they prepare nothing else.

Why does he need 12 Sleeps for 4 encounters?

Sleep lasts for a minute per level. So even at first level it lasts 10 rounds.

And why are you trying to pretend that Sleep is the entirety of the Wizard's arsenal? The Wizard has an all around better spell list.

Dekalinder wrote:
And btw on half-elve and elves, slumber is SU so immunity agains magical sleep doesn't work.

I think you might want to look up what the word "Supernatural" means because you obviously don't know it currently.


Supernatural =/= magical. Infact, supernatural ability can't be dispelled by dispell magic. to me, immunity to magical sleep means, in the same way immunity works on golems, immunity to everything that provokes sleep assuming it gives SR.

And on wizard, gimme a second or lower spells tha't more powerful than a slumber hex. If there is, chences is witch have it anyway. After all, witches have spells too, but it doesn't seems they prefer to use those instead of hexes. There must be something here, or not?


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I play a witch. When I looked up the witch class and came upon "slumber hex" my immediate reaction was "wow, what a crazy overpowered thing that is. I'll never use it."

And I think that reaction has been vindicated many, many times in game play and in commentary I've seen here and other places.

Slumber hex is witch easy mode. Period. Without slumber witches are a versatile and powerful class already. With slumber hex witches are walking coup de grace machines.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

I play a witch. When I looked up the witch class and came upon "slumber hex" my immediate reaction was "wow, what a crazy overpowered thing that is. I'll never use it."

And I think that reaction has been vindicated many, many times in game play and in commentary I've seen here and other places.

Slumber hex is witch easy mode. Period. Without slumber witches are a versatile and powerful class already. With slumber hex witches are walking coup de grace machines.

Why its a neat trick but has a limited range and some of the most common enemies in the game are immune to it. In fact the majority of a witches spell list are save or suck with common immunities. I can't list the number of times in the campaign I played one that I had access to create pit, mirror image, invisibility or some good damage spell besides lightning. Most of the time I end spamming summon spells, glitterdust, web and misfortune. Though I have to admit the few occasions I was facing enemies it worked on Slumber and Stinking Cloud worked gloriously.

Scarab Sages

I think summoners are more broken than witches. I've seen some eidilon designs, including one that I play with often with a friend of mine and it's insane. The thing gets almost 9-10 attacks per round...all shades of broken.


Dekalinder wrote:

Supernatural =/= magical. Infact, supernatural ability can't be dispelled by dispell magic. to me, immunity to magical sleep means, in the same way immunity works on golems, immunity to everything that provokes sleep assuming it gives SR.

And on wizard, gimme a second or lower spells tha't more powerful than a slumber hex. If there is, chences is witch have it anyway. After all, witches have spells too, but it doesn't seems they prefer to use those instead of hexes. There must be something here, or not?

Just to get some rules in this discussion:

"Slumber (Su): A witch can cause a creature within 30 feet to fall into a deep, magical sleep, as per the spell sleep. The creature receives a Will save to negate the effect. If the save fails, the creature falls asleep for a number of rounds equal to the witch's level. This hex can affect a creature of any HD. The creature will not wake due to noise or light, but others can rouse it with a standard action. This hex ends immediately if the creature takes damage. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day."

"Sleep

School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting];
...
Sleep does not target unconscious creatures, constructs, or undead creatures."

"Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table: Special Ability Types for a summary of the types of special abilities."

"Elven Immunities: Elves are immune to magic sleep effects and get a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells and effects."

So, Slumber functions as the spell sleep. So it cannot target unconscious, construct, or undead at all. Additionally, it is an enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting] effect. Second, Slumber is a Supernatural ability. It still is explicitly magical in nature. Therefore, elves, half-elves and other things immune to magical sleep or magic specifically, can not be affected by the slumber hex.


Belladonna Blayze of Andoran wrote:
I think summoners are more broken than witches. I've seen some eidilon designs, including one that I play with often with a friend of mine and it's insane. The thing gets almost 9-10 attacks per round...all shades of broken.

While this is getting off the topic of witches, eidolons have a restriction on the number of natural attacks they can have. It's in the book. You should show your friends that. ;)

/sorryforgettingofftopic


gracefulArmageddon wrote:
Belladonna Blayze of Andoran wrote:
I think summoners are more broken than witches. I've seen some eidilon designs, including one that I play with often with a friend of mine and it's insane. The thing gets almost 9-10 attacks per round...all shades of broken.

While this is getting off the topic of witches, eidolons have a restriction on the number of natural attacks they can have. It's in the book. You should show your friends that. ;)

/sorryforgettingofftopic

Unless Rend/grab abuse or using a natural and manufactured weapons at once.


Wind Chime wrote:
gracefulArmageddon wrote:
Belladonna Blayze of Andoran wrote:
I think summoners are more broken than witches. I've seen some eidilon designs, including one that I play with often with a friend of mine and it's insane. The thing gets almost 9-10 attacks per round...all shades of broken.

While this is getting off the topic of witches, eidolons have a restriction on the number of natural attacks they can have. It's in the book. You should show your friends that. ;)

/sorryforgettingofftopic

Unless Rend/grab abuse or using a natural and manufactured weapons at once.

Most eidlons like this that I have seen once posted to the boards are ripped apart by the rules experts.


Dekalinder wrote:
After all, witches have spells too, but it doesn't seems they prefer to use those instead of hexes. There must be something here, or not?

There is something there. The spell, when cast, is gone for the day. The hex can be used again, although it must be used on a different target. Witches also do not get a 'free spell of any level per day' item like a wizard's focus, nor can they get an extra spell slot of each level via becoming a specialist. So while they have hexes, they have fewer spells to back them up. Additionally, a witch may also have a few spells prepped as healing magic, further limiting the offensive options they have.

*the following is a personal experience anecdote, and your games may vary from the ones I have either played a witch, or seen one played*

When I play a witch, I tend to keep the spells in reserve for things that the hexes cannot affect, or for spells that might not always be useful, but are devastating when the situation arrives. Most other people I know play the class the same way.


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Grey Lensman" wrote:
When I play a witch, I tend to keep the spells in reserve for things that the hexes cannot affect, or for spells that might not always be useful, but are devastating when the situation arrives

Funny, I use exactly the same tactic when playing any spellcaster, except replace "things that hexes cannot affect" with "situations that overwhelm the party's mundane abilities".

I love witches. I think they are the best non-core class from pretty much any perspective. They are powerful, versatile, flavorful and unique.

Too bad they get "slumber" hex which I see so many players turn into a spam-key every encounter.


Assuming_Control wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Wind Chime wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Witches with slumber hex is playing the game on easy mode.
Unless undead, constructs, oozes, dragons, elves,half-eleves plant monsters etc. Sleep immunity is incredibly common.
Those monsters are rare enough that sleep is not normally an issue, and half-elves are not immune to sleep. They don't get "everything" elves get. They should however get the immunity to the ghoul's paralysis since it calls out elves.

They actually are immune.

PRD wrote:

Half-Elf Racial Traits

+2 to One Ability Score: Half-elf characters get a +2 bonus to one ability score of their choice at creation to represent their varied nature.

Medium: Half-elves are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.

Normal Speed: Half-elves have a base speed of 30 feet.

Low-Light Vision: Half-elves can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light. See Additional Rules.

Adaptability: Half-elves receive Skill Focus as a bonus feat at 1st level.

Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.

Elven Immunities: Half-elves are immune to magic sleep effects and get a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells and effects.

Keen Senses: Half-elves receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception skill checks.

Multitalented: Half-elves choose two favored classes at first level and gain +1 hit point or +1 skill point whenever they take a level in either one of those classes. See Classes for more information about favored classes.

Languages: Half-elves begin play speaking Common and Elven. Half-elves with high Intelligence scores can choose any languages they want (except secret languages, such as Druidic).

I read that before I made my post. I guess I failed my perception check.


Question wrote:

I'm playing in a level 3 campaign where 3 out of the first 4 encounters have been totally immune to mind affecting effects. Slumber would not have been very helpful...

I think the witch is too squishy personally. Given the range limitation, this is what should happen most of the time when fighting intelligent enemies :

>Witch uses evil eye, cackles
>All intelligent enemies in the vicinity realise the guy in the backrow, within 30 ft, wearing no armor and cackling, is some kind of spellcaster
>???
>Dead witch

It is not that easy. If he is in the back you have to get to him/her, and that is not easy without ranged weapons.


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Any DM who says X class is broken is lazy.

If X class is breezing through your game you need to take time to look at the class and figure out how to moderate them through game play not through nerfing.

Just because your old tricks of handling the existing characters are stale and don't work for a new class is not an indication of broken it is a challenge to be taken up.

Get off your arse and be creative. NPCs and monsters arent stupid.


The 8th Dwarf wrote:

Any DM who says X class is broken is lazy.

If X class is breezing through your game you need to take time to look at the class and figure out how to moderate them through game play not through nerfing.

Just because your old tricks of handling the existing characters are stale and don't work for a new class is not an indication of broken it is a challenge to be taken up.

Get off your arse and be creative. NPCs and monsters arent stupid.

Lazy, or possibly inexperienced. Being adaptive in encounter design is key. Pretty much every class out there can shine given the chance, and have 'abuses' of their abilities - so the key is to remember to occasionally throw in encounters that are going to force them to use other abilities.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
buddahcjcc wrote:

I was playing a game as a Witch, basic build, I really cant remember it right now but the part I DO remember is having picked the Sleep hex.

I voluntarily retired the character after we got to the leader of the band of bad guys (the boss fight), I got within 30 feet, Sleep Hexxed him, he rolled a 1 on the Will, the rest of the party walked up and coupe-de-graced him to death

Now I get you play as a spellcaster , you can get the Sleep spell, but that has a hard limit of 4 HD. The Sleep Hex doesnt.

There was another guy who made a Witch who knew every single first level spell (I cant remember how but it was all legal, our DM went over it with a fine toothed comb when he say how thick his spell list was).

This class seems to need some fine tuning to make it in line with the rest. Is that just our limited experiences?

Most of the new classes seem to have this issue. They just dont seem to scale well in comparison with the rest of the base classes

I am uncertain. Usually when I see "new class/combo OP" I invariably compare it to basic (Core) abilities.

There are powerful combinations from Core. That bring said, Su > SLA > spells. Mainly because if all other things being equal, they cannot be interrupted, ignore Silence and Somatic limitations, and ignore SR.

So a save or die effect that is Su would be better than save or die spell. That certainly makes it superior, but not necessarily OP.

So far my level 1 wizard (int 20) has cast Sleep on close to 2 dozen targets. It has worked on 2, total. Everyone else made their save. The witch can run into the exact same streak. I am also running a new campaign so I am curious to see how much more effective this class is. As a full progression-caster I expect it to compare well to the wizard, but the witch's spell list is limited so I suppose the Su abilities make up the difference?

Oh regarding the boss fight...he was all alone? Not a single minion was available to use a standard action before the entire party walked up and performed coup de grace?

Just curious.


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The 8th Dwarf wrote:

Any DM who says X class is broken is lazy.

If X class is breezing through your game you need to take time to look at the class and figure out how to moderate them through game play not through nerfing.

If you need to modulate your game to accommodate for a single class (and your encounters were already well designed) that is pretty much the definition of broken.

This is effectively saying that nothing in the game is broken because it can be fixed.

But if it needs to be fixed, that implies it was broken, no?


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You have an excuse if you are new and inexperienced. But if you are a long time GM and you can't cope with the random stuff that players pull the you need to take a good look at yourself.

When there are new players on the field with different tactics, you can't keep going back to your old play book and having a big cry when your well trodden old plays are stomped on by switched on players.

You adapt, there is no broken only different and different requires you to think and some people don't like troubling the little grey cells so they moan.

If you can't come up with your own answers ask others there is no shame in that. This not a gentleman's game of cricket with all the politeness and FairPlay. It's meant to be challenging and exciting and DMs are supposed to play dirty within the rules to make it fun for all.


Artanthos wrote:
Undead, constructs and oozes are very common, even in level 1 dungeons.

LOL, example is the PFS First Steps. Not terribly Slumber friendly.

I also note that there is a curious coincidence that the people who seem to take the greatest umbrage with the Slumber hex also seem to have an odd grasp of the Sleep/Slumber rules, per the above post about it effecting elves etc and I think Tarantula did a good job of clarifying a lot of the odd misunderstandings.


The 8th Dwarf wrote:

You have an excuse if you are new and inexperienced. But if you are a long time GM and you can't cope with the random stuff that players pull the you need to take a good look at yourself.

When are new players on the field with different tactics, you can't keep going back to your old play book and having a big cry when your well trodden old plays are stomped on by switched on players.

You adapt, there is no broken only different and different requires you to think and some people don't like troubling the little grey cells so they moan.

If you can't come up with your own answers ask others there is no shame in that. This not a gentleman's game of cricket with all the politeness and FairPlay. It's meant to be challenging and exciting and DMs are supposed to play dirty within the rules to make it fun for all.

So is that a reasoned assessment of the official PF ruleset? Or is it a general statement about all RPGs? Or at least all D&D variants, including 3pp?


Life in general.


Elves are immune to the slumber hex. so are dragons and anything with immunity to mind affecting effects.

but you can't always expect a character to remember every niche racial ability.


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The 8th Dwarf wrote:

You have an excuse if you are new and inexperienced. But if you are a long time GM and you can't cope with the random stuff that players pull the you need to take a good look at yourself.

When there are new players on the field with different tactics, you can't keep going back to your old play book and having a big cry when your well trodden old plays are stomped on by switched on players.

You adapt, there is no broken only different and different requires you to think and some people don't like troubling the little grey cells so they moan.

If you can't come up with your own answers ask others there is no shame in that. This not a gentleman's game of cricket with all the politeness and FairPlay. It's meant to be challenging and exciting and DMs are supposed to play dirty within the rules to make it fun for all.

I'm not entirely sure if you read my post and are trying (and failing) to reply to it, or are just ranting because you can.

You seem to be of the opinion that anybody who would like something to be officially fixed by Paizo is some sort of crybaby who should "man up" and pretend nothing's broken by fixing it themselves.

But as a I said before, IF IT REQUIRES FIXING, IT'S KINDA OBVIOUS IT'S BROKEN, YEAH?


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I got to 13th level with a witch, my main tricks, were slumber, misfortune, and fortune. It threw the GM a few times allowing us to take out two of his BBEGs in a few rounds.

The GM had never GM'ed Pathfinder before and was a bit flummoxed, he didn't moan about my character being broken, he got pro-active.

He did some research, the evil organisation we were fighting had already thrown hit squads of assassins against us, suddenly there were elves, half elves and monks in the hit squads.

Our enemy started using intellegent undead, it became more difficult.

The enemy had assessed our tactics, one would delay until after I acted and kick awake anybody I slumbered.

I had to change my tactics... Feeblemind is my best friend.


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Rynjin wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:

You have an excuse if you are new and inexperienced. But if you are a long time GM and you can't cope with the random stuff that players pull the you need to take a good look at yourself.

When there are new players on the field with different tactics, you can't keep going back to your old play book and having a big cry when your well trodden old plays are stomped on by switched on players.

You adapt, there is no broken only different and different requires you to think and some people don't like troubling the little grey cells so they moan.

If you can't come up with your own answers ask others there is no shame in that. This not a gentleman's game of cricket with all the politeness and FairPlay. It's meant to be challenging and exciting and DMs are supposed to play dirty within the rules to make it fun for all.

I'm not entirely sure if you read my post and are trying (and failing) to reply to it, or are just ranting because you can.

You seem to be of the opinion that anybody who would like something to be officially fixed by Paizo is some sort of crybaby who should "man up" and pretend nothing's broken by fixing it themselves.

But as a I said before, IF IT REQUIRES FIXING, IT'S KINDA OBVIOUS IT'S BROKEN, YEAH?

I am ranting because I can :-)

And I like it when I get people to shout at me on the Internet.

None of the classes need fixing if you can't adapt don't punish your players.


The 8th Dwarf wrote:
I am ranting because I can :-)

Ah, fair enough.

The 8th Dwarf wrote:
And I like it when I get people to shout at me on the Internet.

Think of it as italics. I find it a lot easier to just hold the shift key rather than take the time to use the [i] tags.

The 8th Dwarf wrote:
None of the classes need fixing if you can't adapt don't punish your players.

Quite a few of the classes need fixing, and fixing them doesn't "punish" the player any more than adapting your campaign specifically to marginalize their abilities punishes them (less so even, I would say).

What I've been trying to get across is that if you need to adapt to it, it's obviously broken in some small way, or in some certain situations.

The Witch is not OP. Slumber is not OP. But it is BROKEN, because in certain circumstances it wins everything forever and in some it is completely and utterly WORTHLESS.


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While you are at it, get the nerfbanhammer out for Barbarians, Fighters, Samurai, Cavalier, those Pesky Paladins... and probably the clerics.

At LEVEL 1 they have this unlimited use ability where they can simply one shot any creature they come up against 60-70% chance, AND IT DOESNT EVEN GET A SAVE! They can do this over and over reliably, EVEN AGAINST A CR2 creature, just dice down and BAM! and IF, and I do say a big IF here, the creature manages to miraclaously NOT get one shotted by the first attacker, his mates come in and DO THE SAME THING.

Now if that isn't unbalanced, any creature weathering this storm by some kind of miracle, faces the Melee'r simply DOING IT AGAIN next round, and this works on every creature at CR2.

I can't believe this is so much more OP than my fragile level 1 witch having to get in close, chuck on a Slumber, pray that the thing is a valid target in the first place, pray it saves its fail, then pray I can kill it in a shot... I'd coup de grace it myself, but I can't because of the stupid action economy. Oh and if I fail any of these things, next round the creature gets up and wears my head as a hat.

This game is SO BROKEN.

Ermergerd!


But changing your tactics to specifically counter it is identical in effect to nerfing it, is what I'm saying.

It's two routes to the same goal, except one is the direct route and the second pussyfoots around it but ends up at the same goal ultimately.


Considering a Witch has to be within 30' to use most of her abilities and she's squishy as heck, I would say the Witch is far from OP. I love playing Witches, though, great fun.


Shifty wrote:

While you are at it, get the nerfbanhammer out for Barbarians, Fighters, Samurai, Cavalier, those Pesky Paladins... and probably the clerics.

At LEVEL 1 they have this unlimited use ability where they can simply one shot any creature they come up against 60-70% chance, AND IT DOESNT EVEN GET A SAVE! They can do this over and over reliably, EVEN AGAINST A CR2 creature, just dice down and BAM! and IF, and I do say a big IF here, the creature manages to miraclaously NOT get one shotted by the first attacker, his mates come in and DO THE SAME THING.

Now if that isn't unbalanced, any creature weathering this storm by some kind of miracle, faces the Melee'r simply DOING IT AGAIN next round, and this works on every creature at CR2.

I can't believe this is so much more OP than my fragile level 1 witch having to get in close, chuck on a Slumber, pray that the thing is a valid target in the first place, pray it saves its fail, then pray I can kill it in a shot... I'd coup de grace it myself, but I can't because of the stupid action economy. Oh and if I fail any of these things, next round the creature gets up and wears my head as a hat.

This game is SO BROKEN.

Ermergerd!

Yes, because melee attacks never miss and force a save vs death (effectively) an unlimited number of times per day.

The is a good reason that the sleep spell has an HD limit. removing the hd limit means that, unless you are an elf, there is a 5% chance that any witch with slumber hex can simply effectively one round you!

1. Take slumber hex.
2. Carry a scythe.
3. ???
4. Profit!

I'm not saying the witch is overpowered, I think wizards are better, but hexes are very abusable.


Rynjin wrote:

But changing your tactics to specifically counter it is identical in effect to nerfing it, is what I'm saying.

It's two routes to the same goal, except one is the direct route and the second pussyfoots around it but ends up at the same goal ultimately.

No it isn't - I don't know about American football, but I will talk about it anyway.

Let's say Washington runs the same formation against you game in game out. You have your defensive moves worked out and your counters are perfect. So it's all down to the skill of the players, the bounce of the ball and the direction of the wind.

All of a sudden the Red Skins go from a throwing game to a running game. You keep running the same defensive plays as before, and you wonder why you are loosing.

Washington are still playing within the rules of the game - nothing they are doing is broken. It's you as defensive coach that has failed because you failed to adapt your plays.

It no point crying to the ref and asking for them to change the rules and stop the running game because you can't cope and taking out you crayon mid game and scribbling out the rules you don't like is dickishness as well.


Assuming_Control wrote:

Yes, because melee attacks never miss and force a save vs death (effectively) an unlimited number of times per day.

The is a good reason that the sleep spell has an HD limit. removing the hd limit means that, unless you are an elf, there is a 5% chance that any witch with slumber hex can simply effectively one round you!

1. Take slumber hex.
2. Carry a scythe.
3. ???
4. Profit!

I'm not saying the witch is overpowered, I think wizards are better, but hexes are very abusable.

Right, because everyone plays solo and has no backup at all to prevent a CdG from happening.

BBEG never have henchman that might have a chance to spend a standard action to wake the boss up before the fighter finishes scything him right in the neck.


Rynjin wrote:


Quite a few of the classes need fixing, and fixing them doesn't "punish" the player any more than adapting your campaign specifically to marginalize their abilities punishes them (less so even, I would say).

What I've been trying to get across is that if you need to adapt to it, it's obviously broken in some small way, or in some certain situations.

The Witch is not OP. Slumber is not OP. But it is BROKEN, because in certain circumstances it wins everything forever and in some it is completely and utterly WORTHLESS.

Quite a few? Monk? Rogue? Summoner? Maybe fighter?

And 3 of those are maybes.

As for a power being broken because it only has situational value, but when it has value it's quite valuable, I disagree. Most SODs fall under this description, but to remove them from the game or to nerf them would be silly: spells that kill with a word, or turn you into a frog, or put you in a magic slumber are classic tropes, and to remove or "fix" them would harm the game.

If people have issues with SODs, the easiest fix is to give some to martials and the game becomes wonderfully deadly.

If you don't like wonderfully deadly games, go play 4e.


So overlooking all the 'if you disagree with me you're a bad DM' rubbish, I still think the witch is awesome, though balanced when compared to other casters. That said, The sleep hex, I feel, is kind of a lamentable design choice as it's a needlessly contentious option and was always going to be.


Assuming_Control wrote:

1. Take slumber hex.
2. Carry a scythe.
3. ???
4. Profit!

Can't really do that at level 1 though can you?

Even at Level 2 it is problematic.

Also assumes the creature doesn't have nearby friends that AOO you to pieces when you try it.

As opposed to say an 18str Melee smacking away with a two handed weapon, I dunno, Falchion for example. 2d4+6? On average that outright drops any CR1, and would have a pretty high chance of dropping a CR2.
Weapon Focus, 1 bab, +4 Str means you have an average roll of 16-17, whats the average AC at that level on the creatures?

Yeah I thought so, you have better than average odds of not having to worry about spending 2 rounds or more killing one creature when you have the same or better odds of killing one every round.


The 8th Dwarf wrote:

-Football snip-

It no point crying to the ref and asking for them to change the rules and stop the running game because you can't cope and taking out you crayon mid game and scribbling out the rules you don't like is dickishness as well.

It's not really the same scenario.

We're talking about something that is actually broken. As in, doesn't work properly, is poorly designed, etc.

To continue with the (somewhat wonky, but who am I to judge since my middle name is "Weird analogy") analogy, a broken item is when the rules simply don't work properly.

This is not a strategy that works until something counters it. That is a something very much like a First Order Optimal Strategy (or, FOO Strategy). It gives the most power out from effort in, but is not necessarily THE most effective possible strategy nor is it necessarily easily countered. The Slumber Hex is a (extremely mildly) broken example of this, since it is TOO optimal when effective, and ENTIRELY useless when not.

This is as if the game of football had a rule that in some way made it an auto-win scenario (in a more colloquial sense) or actual caused the game to become unplayable (in the literal sense).

But we'll talk about the colloquial first. Let's say that there's some loophole in the rules that allows you to remote control the ball, thus allowing you to never fail passes and make the ball fly farther than it ever would (making touchdown passes almost a given). It is an extremely optimal strategy.

Now, there is a good counter to it that would make it entirely useless: Tackle the guy with the remote, and it can't be used at all. Thus the tactic isn't OVERPOWERED, but it is BROKEN (it fundamentally breaks the unwritten "rules" of the game by shortcutting natural limitations, whether it be an HD limit, round-per-encounter limit, damage-to-kill limit, or anything else).

Does that make any sort of sense?

Your scenario is simply good tactics being overcome by good counter-tactics. In essence, the FOO strategy is being beaten by simply running up against something that will require more effort to defeat. The "broken" scenario is one which has a completely unbalanced skill/reward ratio (no throwing or catching skill needed) but is entirely able to be shut down with ease as well. It's an auto-win button that also has an auto-fail built into it, which is inherently poor design. Nothing should ever be an automatic win or fail in a game besides the obvious "I forfeit" type actions. And strategies/abilities/etc. that do this are broken. They do not work as intended or according to the unwritten rules of the game.

And if the thing is broken, it needs at best an official fix or at least a houserule to cover it.

Dr. Calvin Murgunstrumm wrote:


Quite a few? Monk? Rogue? Summoner? Maybe fighter?

And 3 of those are maybes.

Any class that relies on spellcasting needs fixing. Most especially full casters, the 6/4 level casters are pretty okay, but full casters gain far too many rewards for far too few drawbacks in the current system.

But yes, Monk/Rogue/Fighter (Fighter slightly less so) need fixes.


Rerednaw wrote:
buddahcjcc wrote:

I was playing a game as a Witch, basic build, I really cant remember it right now but the part I DO remember is having picked the Sleep hex.

I voluntarily retired the character after we got to the leader of the band of bad guys (the boss fight), I got within 30 feet, Sleep Hexxed him, he rolled a 1 on the Will, the rest of the party walked up and coupe-de-graced him to death

Now I get you play as a spellcaster , you can get the Sleep spell, but that has a hard limit of 4 HD. The Sleep Hex doesnt.

There was another guy who made a Witch who knew every single first level spell (I cant remember how but it was all legal, our DM went over it with a fine toothed comb when he say how thick his spell list was).

This class seems to need some fine tuning to make it in line with the rest. Is that just our limited experiences?

Most of the new classes seem to have this issue. They just dont seem to scale well in comparison with the rest of the base classes

I am uncertain. Usually when I see "new class/combo OP" I invariably compare it to basic (Core) abilities.

There are powerful combinations from Core. That bring said, Su > SLA > spells. Mainly because if all other things being equal, they cannot be interrupted, ignore Silence and Somatic limitations, and ignore SR.

So a save or die effect that is Su would be better than save or die spell. That certainly makes it superior, but not necessarily OP.

So far my level 1 wizard (int 20) has cast Sleep on close to 2 dozen targets. It has worked on 2, total. Everyone else made their save. The witch can run into the exact same streak. I am also running a new campaign so I am curious to see how much more effective this class is. As a full progression-caster I expect it to compare well to the wizard, but the witch's spell list is limited so I suppose the Su abilities make up the difference?

Oh regarding the boss fight...he was all alone? Not a single minion was available to use a standard action before the entire...

It was years back but we walked into a werecked ship, the big baddie was a Goblin with support crew. Their leader was back row, I walked within 30, sleep hexxed him, the rest of our group ran to him and CDG, the rest of the crew gave up and fled ...or something, I cant remember


Rynjin wrote:


IF IT REQUIRES FIXING, IT'S KINDA OBVIOUS IT'S BROKEN, YEAH?

True, but sometimes it is the GM's tactics that require fixing.

Now personally I think a class can be broken for a group, but no class is broken across the board. It is no different than when PF's new and improved paladin was smiting BBEG's into submission, and GM's were not used to it so they were complaining.


Assuming_Control wrote:


*Woosh*

My post, over your head.

No, I got it, you didn't have a counter argument so you ran the Chewbacca Defence, all cool bro.

Dark Archive

Maybe


Nah, witches aren't broken. They're neat, but they're not broken.

Slumber hex is good, and it's nice that it actually remains useful through the life of the character, but it's not any more game breaking than, say, a sorcerer with color spray.

In my group's Kingmaker game, one of the other players took a witch from 1 to 20, and the character was fine all the way through. She was never overwhelming but she was always useful.

I did try to play a witch in another game, and I consciously chose to not take Slumber hex to "be nice" to the DM, who hadn't run a 3.X game in over 5 years. I wound up regretting that, as the only thing she could reliably do to disable enemies was Daze. That campaign ended shortly after my witch was killed at 3rd level by a weretiger.

Also, Witches are pretty easy to counter - a person with a protection from X or magic circle vs. X spell up is pretty much immune to most of what witches can do.


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wraithstrike wrote:
Rynjin wrote:


IF IT REQUIRES FIXING, IT'S KINDA OBVIOUS IT'S BROKEN, YEAH?

True, but sometimes it is the GM's tactics that require fixing.

Now personally I think a class can be broken for a group, but no class is broken across the board. It is no different than when PF's new and improved paladin was smiting BBEG's into submission, and GM's were not used to it so they were complaining.

This. Changes to class mechanics sometimes necessitate learning new tricks on the part of the GM. Altering the encounters you throw at your players to force them to try different tactics (and so that they avoid becoming one-trick ponies) is not the same as 'nerfing the class', because the rules for the class aren't changing - only the challenges the class is facing.

Adding on to the Slumber Hex that "the witch can only use this Hex 3 + her INT modifier times per day" is a nerf; modifying the make-up of some of your encounters to include creatures resistant to sleep effects (or even throwing in some Hex-resistance mechanics) is not.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Rynjin wrote:
The Bard is not OP. Countersong is not OP. But it is BROKEN, because in certain circumstances it wins everything forever and in some it is completely and utterly WORTHLESS.

FIFY


buddahcjcc wrote:
It was years back but we walked into a werecked ship, the big baddie was a Goblin with support crew. Their leader was back row, I walked within 30, sleep hexxed him, the rest of our group ran to him and CDG, the rest of the crew gave up and fled ...or something, I cant remember

Well, and see, this is just bad tactics by the DM- or he just wanted to throw you an easy one (which is OK once in a while). The “support” crew should have been able to stop you from CdG their boss, and also woken him. Remember, you can’t CdG after a move . So you must be within 5’ of the BBEG. So, after moving up, the minions coudl have gotten near, one of them woken him, the rest attack, etc.

So, just because the GM threw this battle, doesn’t mean the class is broke,
Wraithstrike is right when he sez “True, but sometimes it is the GM's tactics that require fixing. “


DrDeth wrote:
buddahcjcc wrote:
It was years back but we walked into a werecked ship, the big baddie was a Goblin with support crew. Their leader was back row, I walked within 30, sleep hexxed him, the rest of our group ran to him and CDG, the rest of the crew gave up and fled ...or something, I cant remember

Well, and see, this is just bad tactics by the DM- or he just wanted to throw you an easy one (which is OK once in a while). The “support” crew should have been able to stop you from CdG their boss, and also woken him. Remember, you can’t CdG after a move . So you must be within 5’ of the BBEG. So, after moving up, the minions coudl have gotten near, one of them woken him, the rest attack, etc.

So, just because the GM threw this battle, doesn’t mean the class is broke,
Wraithstrike is right when he sez “True, but sometimes it is the GM's tactics that require fixing. “

To be fair, you can move, then standard action (start a full-round action CdG) and your next turn standard action (finish full-round action CdG).

Regardless, plenty of time for a henchgoblin to wake up the boss before he is impaled.

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