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I am wondering why "enlarge" could appear so underpowered ?
The benefit from it is not that great compared to the drawbacks :
- +2 strength, larger size (reach inside !), larger weapons
- -2 dex, -1 AC & -1 attack due to larger size
Indeed, you receive, tax included :
Pros :
* reach
* let's say about +2 to +4 damage per attack (depending on weapon)
* +0 on attack rolls
* bonus on grapple checks
Cons :
* -1 ref saves
* -1 on some useful combat skills (escape, acrobatics, sometimes stealth)
* -2 on range attacks
* -2 AC
* -1 initiative
So, everytime I propose to enlarge a friend (I am a sorcerer with "enlarge" as a bonus spell), he just tells me he prefers not to be enlarged.
Is it me, or is that spell underpowered for a 2nd level spell ?
If there was not that -2 on dex and say a -4 on stealth checks (keeping the -1 on att. and CA), it would be really OK and not that powerful (no malus on ref saves, skills other than stealth, initiative and only -1 on AC and attacks including range attacks).
What do you think about that spell ?
Is there really a problem with that spell ?
Well, it's a 1st level spell, not a 2nd level one.
Negating the reach advantage for large enemies is probably the best use for this spell. The only thing i would drop, personally, is the cating time of 1 round.
I assume you mean enlarge person, which is a 1st-level spell.
Until he died, we had a transmuter wizard in the party, whose big trick was to cast that spell on the ranseur-weilding barbarian. When that combined with his rage, the barbarian had 20-foot reach and was regularly dishing out 15+ hp / round at level 1!
the downside was the hit to AC, meaning that Giant Barbarian usually got hit several times-- but an individual attacker rarely hit more than once-- or was even able to close to melee.
In short, at low levels, its a pretty good tactic!
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Enlarge is liked by many of us. It makes you stronger and the weapon base damage in increase. It also gives you reach.
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No, it's a good spell.
Think for a second on some of your cons. The -1 Ref save is fairly negligible (though a small debuff).
The -1 on skills is canceled out by the fact that you are LARGE. Escape Artist is balanced out by your higher CMB and CMD (to avoid getting grappled in the first place) because of size. Acrobatics you have less need of (and probably weren't good at anyway) sinc eyou have Reach, and Stealth...seriously? Stealth simply does not work in combat. At all. Especially since the guy you're casting it on probably has 0 ranks in it and has a penalty due to armor anyway.
-2 on ranged attacks is insignificant. Any spellcaster with half a brain will only use it on the big 2H Fighter or similar, not the bowman (that's who REDUCE Person is for).
The -2 AC is meh. Rage does the same.
-1 on attack rolls and Initiative ain't much either. Initiative hurts a bit more than attack rolls.
In exchange, you've got more damage, Reach, a better CMB/CMD and an effective no loss of attack. It's perfect for a melee brute.
And it's a 1st level spell, not a 2nd level spell.
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While enlarge does come with drawback, you usualy cast it on a character who dosen't care about them - see Haladir's example above. Why would a barbarian care about -2 on range attacks and a -1 on skills like acrobatics? he's all about attacking, and in lower levels, enlarge person helps that greatly.
I had a fight for my group where a dragon blooded sorcerer with 4 mooks enlarged his mooks during combat, and that was a very challenging encounter, nearly killed a couple PC's. They were level 3 at the time, and I believe no other spell the sorcerer could have had would have been more powerful.
-1 to initiative is negligible if you cast it during combat anyways.
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The benefit from it is not that great compared to the drawbacks :
I'm going to change up your list a little:
Pros:
NATURAL REACH!
Cons:
WHO CARES? YOU HAVE NATURAL REACH!
Seriously, the stat bonuses don't matter at all. Reach is the entire point of the spell and why people should always want it. Reach controls the battlefield and either grants extra attacks or prevents the enemies from getting them. It's a huge deal. All the little +1s and -1s are irrelevant compared to that.
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Pretty much. Reach man. Hell, the very existence of enlarge person is one of the reasons you might think twice about playing a small-sized martial. The fact it also causes melee damage to skyrocket for the duration doesn't hurt either.
So you're some guy with a 16 strength (say a dwarf) with a greatsword/greataxe and a 5 ft. reach. Dude casts this spell on you and you become a 2x2 space on the grid (super defender) with a 10 ft. reach that deals 3d6+6 damage per swing.
There is very, very little in the early game that can stand up to a hit from an enlarged meatshield for long. The -2 to AC is pretty negligible in most cases compared to the offensive buff.
It's actually pretty epic for rogues too. More reach means easier flanking. >.>
If your friend says no, cast it on yourself and outshine him in combat, getting in hits while he is still waiting for the enemy to close. Next time he will be begging you to cast "that spell" on him.
OC, it would depend on what weapon you use, Is there no melee characters in your party? a cleric who gets into combat for example? They could benefit from it.
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Usually the two-handed weapon fighting type loves reach while the finesse types do not. That is it put very simply.
I had a monk with a two-handed reach weapon, combat reflexes, and Enlarge Person go to town on a bunch of bad guys trying to run us down from horseback. I killed almost the entire group of foes on attacks of opportunity. When they did get close, I would just unleash on them with my unarmed strikes.
The other players just looked at me in stunned silence and began to ask questions about why everyone things monks are underpowered. I am a big fan of Enlarge Person!
Then you start doing funny things.
Say a 5th level human two-handed fighter with 20 str (not hard). Give him a +1 impact greataxe ( I know WBL, but this is an example) and vital strike. Have enlarge person and lead blades cast on him. All of a sudden his vital strikes are doing 12d6 +18 damage, average 60.
Want to do worse? Use a lance and charge from the back of a mount. Even worse than that? Make it a barbarian with furious finish. All damage die are maximized. You should do 68 damage all the time. Makes vital strike almost scary.
Wait wait wait! There are people who don't like enlarge person?
It's an absolutely awesome spell. You get reach! And +2 size bonus to strength! On a 1st level spell! Unless you're getting ventilated by ranged attacks, I don't see why a two-handed melee type would ever refuse this.
It's actually pretty epic for rogues too. More reach means easier flanking. >.>
Yeah. I've got a Half-Orc Rogue with a Fouchard and Accelerated Drinker who routinely chugs a potion of this on the first turn of combat.
Ain't nothing like getting 20' Reach for flanking with a 2d8+7+SA damage.
I'm going to join the enlarge person is an awesome spell crowd as well. Its a staple for virtually any melee character, but 2 handed weapon users really get the most mileage out of it. I wouldn't think of making a melee character without a ring of enlarge person (once it can be bought).
Ain't nothing like getting 20' Reach for flanking with a 2d8+7+SA damage.
Correction: 15-ft. reach, unless I'm seriously confused?
I assume the fouchard is a reach weapon, but I can't find it.
It is. I believe it is from Classic Horrors Revisted. Reach weapon, 18-20 crit range, trip property. It's quite a good weapon IMO, and worth the exotic weapon proficiency feat if you want something with reach and a great crit range.
Is it me, or is that spell underpowered for a 2nd level spell ?
What do you think about that spell ?
Is there really a problem with that spell ?
Definitely not underpowered and I'd say it's absolutely essential for upper tier play.
Really, it's all about reach. If the opponent has a longer reach, you take AoOs closing. If you have a longer reach, he takes AoOs closing.
Sometimes taking an AoO is like being attacked for another round. It can be game over that quickly.
But you know, to each their own.
PS. Enlarge goes on Str martials and Reduce goes on Dex martials. Obviously.
I assume the fouchard is a reach weapon, but I can't find it.
Yes. Reach weapon: 5 ft. to 10 ft.
Enlarge: 5 ft. to 10 ft.Both: 5 ft. to 15 ft. (doubled doubling is a triple)
Unless the fouchard normally provides 15 ft. of reach, which then gets enlarged to 20 ft.?
My GM had said that a doubled doubling is quadruple. I'd personally be happy with the 15' reach. I may pick up Lunge after all...
Can you find where it says that it only goes to 15'? (I'm happy with the reduction, it makes sense, but my GM may need convincing.)
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Reach Weapons: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren't adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.
I didn't realize it doubled instead of adding 5.
Yes reach adds 5 feet to the weapon reach. I am suprised so many regular posters got this wrong. Also enlarge person might not be the best spell to always cast if you are on slippery groudn or something but is awesome most of the time.
From the PRD ("Getting Started"):
Multiplying: When you are asked to apply more than one multiplier to a roll, the multipliers are not multiplied by one another. Instead, you combine them into a single multiplier, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. For example, if you are asked to apply a ×2 multiplier twice, the result would be ×3, not ×4.
Reach Weapons: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren't adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.I didn't realize it doubled instead of adding 5.
Even if it doubles, 10 ft. (normal) x 2 = 20 ft. (as cited), but
5 ft. normal (Medium character) x 2 (reach weapon) x 2 (enlarge) = 15 ft.The difference of 16 affected squares is pretty significant, assuming you're using a battlemat, so it would be good if everyone was on the same page here.
As cited the Large character can hit targets 15 or 20 feet away.
Right, but as cited that's because the base 10 ft. reach was doubled. If your reach is a base 5 ft., and then gets doubled, and then doubled again, the multiplication rules mean it's only 15 ft. In other words, Medoum + enlarge person + reach weapon = very good, but not as good as Large + reach weapon.
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I actually tried out Enlarge Person for the first time recently, since my battle oracle gets it as a known spell from his mystery.
I intentionally built this guy as an AC tank, so I was a little worried about the -2 AC. But he has 20 AC at level 2, so going down to 18 in a tier 1-2 adventure is still a very good AC. And he now has enough money to upgrade to full plate, so he'll be 22 AC at level 2, so it'll only drop to 20. Adding +1 magic to his full plate and buckler will be cheap enough that I can probably do both at level 3, so he'll have 24 AC before being enlarged, which only drops to 22.
So as long as I keep my AC up for my level, the enlarge really shouldn't hurt much. Getting reach, and upgrading my long sword damage from 1d8+4 (avg 8.5 per hit) to 2d6+5 (avg 12 per hit) should be worth it. As a one handed weapon fighter, he's never going to be the heaviest hitter around, but I knew that when I decided to make him an AC tank by giving him long sword and shield instead of a two handed weapon.
If a Medium character is enlarged he becomes Large sized, and has a natural reach of 10 feet. It is the same calculation.
I see where you're coming from -- your interpretation is that reach when enlarged isn't doubled at all, but is totally reset from scratch.
I could go with that, too.
Any examples from APs? That would save us a FAQ request.
One hidden benefit of being a Large creature is that your Medium friend in the square between you and your target no longer provides cover.
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One hidden benefit of being a Large creature is that your Medium friend in the square between you and your target no longer provides cover.
Are you sure? I recently looked this one up, and it says anything up to half the height of the person hiding behind it still gives cover. I don't remember the details off the top of my head, but I think it was in the cover rules in the combat chapter of the Core Rulebook.
I was recently in a game where it was cast on my paladin, much to his dismay.
My halfling, archer paladin. Poof goes my AC size bonus, bye-bye to my excellent Dexterity in exchange for a minor Strength boost, my trivial sword damage (1d6) gets 'upgraded' to a mighty 1d8, PLUS we were fighting a mounted enemy... ugh. I asked the sorcerer to please not do that again.
Did you at least try to save against it?
It allows a Fort save for unwilling targets. And as a Halfling Paladin your saves should be next to godliness.
Wait wait wait! There are people who don't like enlarge person?
It's an absolutely awesome spell. You get reach! And +2 size bonus to strength! On a 1st level spell! Unless you're getting ventilated by ranged attacks, I don't see why a two-handed melee type would ever refuse this.
Well, in my current group, we have three melee people, basically.
1. A Halfling Cavalier who can no longer ride his mount if he becomes medium sized to do massive 2H lance charge damage.
2. A druid who is wildshaped and just plain can't be affected by size changing magic while in her combat forms.
3. Me, a dex-based goblin claw/bite alchemist, who would take attack and AC penalties, see no increase in damage nor reach, and have a harder time using Roll With It.
Our group no-likey Enlarge Person. DM had an NPC wizard join us at one point and he started casting Enlarge Person, ended his turn. We asked curiously WHO he was enlarging. DM said my character, I said he better not dare or I'll go smack him just to disrupt the casting. DM then said the Cav, he said, no way in hell is he dismounting. Over to the druid. Not a valid target.
Ended up enlarging himself (despite being the typical squishy stay in the back type of wizard, and thus doing himself no favors, either) out of frustration. :D
Enlarge Person likely only has one valid target in the group I just started in, too ... the Human Barbarian.
Rat Alchemist? Nah.
Rat Gunslinger? Nah.
Elf Wizard? Definitely not.
Kitsune Ninja? Nope.
Gnome Druid? Probably not.
Of course, if you're only gonna have one target for Enlarge Person ... Human Barbarian is probably the way to go.
From the PRD ("Getting Started"):
Multiplying: When you are asked to apply more than one multiplier to a roll, the multipliers are not multiplied by one another. Instead, you combine them into a single multiplier, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. For example, if you are asked to apply a ×2 multiplier twice, the result would be ×3, not ×4.
There's a flaw in this logic... I've done a bit to emphasize it - can YOU find it? =)