
Trogdar |

If you get both archetypes? Hmmm, I could see doing some kind of versatile character like a detective/Dervish of dawn. Good overall skills and interesting versatility in performances for both combat and out of it... I think that would be a reasonable gestalt.
Of course, a troubling outgrowth of this kind of gestalt would be the dreaded synthesist/ standard summoner. If I understand your meaning about blending archetypes, this fellow would have an eidolon suit and an eidolon companion.

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thematically, i like a lot of the oracle/sorcerer gestalt combos, but realistically they aren't that great until at least 10th level... adding oracle to sorc ups HD from d6 to d8 and BAB from 1/2 to 3/4, but in exchange you lose the ability to wear armor (and gain no new good saves), so from a survivability standpoint its not a great combo... the only big gain is in # of spells/day and even without that, after like 4th level the chance of even a caster/martial gestalt running out of spells is slim. starting at 10th they're more effective because they have enough high level spell slots to make good use of quicken spell, but honestly i think you'd be better off picking a second class that increases survivability and provides options for when casting is not a good choice.
a monk/time oracle with revelation strike (for aging touch) would be cool, and a lot of the revelations would be cool/thematic. you could take the monk of the 4 winds archetype for even more interesting time stuff (at 12th level). plus, that way you have all good saves, effectively full BAB when flurrying, are always armed, and have better skill options. a merfolk ranger/waves oracle will have d10 HD, full BAB, all good saves, extra skills, and bonus combat feats. just my 2cp- YMMV
You make a lot of good points here. Some of them are the reasons paladin/oracle gestalts (or even multiclasses) are so effective.
On the monk side of things, monk/empyreal sorcerer might work out well.

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the magus would be better,
from expirence I know that wizard/fighters are the weakest gestalt that doesn't have overlap, unless you take prestige classes like abjurant champion
hmm and as for the two archetype challenge, monk (four winds or zen archer and quinningog) maybe bard (arcane duelist and sandman)

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the magus would be better,
from expirence I know that wizard/fighters are the weakest gestalt that doesn't have overlap, unless you take prestige classes like abjurant championhmm and as for the two archetype challenge, monk (four winds or zen archer and quinningog) maybe bard (arcane duelist and sandman)
I agree the magus would probably be better. I'm drooling thinking about all those extra feats that the magus would have available. This character would almost have to be built as a Dervish Dancing magus, though, although you don't need quite as high a Con as a normal magus due to the fighter's d10 hit die, you don't need to put a whole lot in Wiw because of the magus' good will save, and you really don't need any points in Cha since neither class cares too much about social situations.
With a 20pt buy I could see either:
Str: 16
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 10
Cha: 8
or
Str: 12
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha: 7
These are pre-racial, and unfortunately there's no race that give +Str and +Int. There is a tiefling alternate heritage that gives +2 Dex, +2 Int, and -2 Wis, so that would work well for a Dervish Dancing magus.

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as to the two magi above I'd take the top one, but I'd try to pump inelegance a bit more, taking a race that helps it out,
and you are wrong on the no race gives +2 to both int and str, thing
human alternate race trait, gives up bonus feat for another +2 to any one additional feat
if you start that, could you do so on these boards and pm me an invite? that sounds really cool,
if everyone's a gunslinger, then DPS is covered against most everything (a party of gunslinger gestalts, I'm drooling)
if I were to make what I think would be the coolist party combo with the above
party of 4
paladin (holy gun)/gunslinger (gun tank maybe?)
ninja (glory rouge, maybe carnavalist, maybe not, maybe pet trainer)/gunslinger(either Pistolero or mysterious stranger)
alchemist (grenader)/gunslinger (mechanist)
sorcerer, bard or dread (it's a fear based psionic class)/gunslinger (either pistolero or mysterious stranger)

Atarlost |
You could get some fun tricks out of a lore warden wizard. Like being able to afford the support feats for maneuver spells.
For a two archetype self-gestalt it's usually going to be best to take very different archetypes.
-- Bard: Archaeologist/Chelish Diva
The only overlap are dirge of doom and well versed. You get normal performance, versatile performance, and full plate casting off the Diva and lore master, bardic knowledge, luck, trapfinding+, and rogue talents off the archaeologist.
-- Cleric: Divine Strategist/Evangelist
Both drop to one domain, which hurts, but the initiative bonus goes so well with sermonic performance.
-- Druid: Eagle Shaman/Storm Druid
The Storm Druid gets uninhibited wildshape and because they both alter nature bond you wind up with three domains. Take Nobility off the Eagle Shaman for Nobility and get the excellent Magic Vestment to patch up your defenses. Lion Shaman would also work, but I think Eagle has better bonus feats.
But I'll raise your synth/standard summoner and raise you a synth/master.

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just realized pistolero and mysterious stranger overlap,
if everyone's a gunslinger, then DPS is covered against most everything (a party of gunslinger gestalts, I'm drooling)
if I were to make what I think would be the coolist party combo with the above
party of 4
paladin (holy gun)/gunslinger (gun tank maybe?) focus dex followed by cha followed by con and wis lowest stat: int
ninja (glory rouge, maybe carnavalist, maybe not, maybe pet trainer)/gunslinger(either Pistolero or mysterious stranger) focus dex followed by cha followed by int lowest stat con or str
alchemist (grenader)/gunslinger (mechanist) focus int followed by dex followed by con (lowest stat cha and wis)
sorcerer, bard or dread (it's a fear based psionic class)/gunslinger ([mysterious stranger, maybe also pistlero) cha followed by dex, maybe pump con after that

nate lange RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |

bigdaddy- for the wildwest campaign ideas that i think would be cool:
oath of vengeance paladin/mysterious stranger (great Cha synergy)
preacher inquisitor/guntank (great Wis synergy)
weaponmaster 3|sohei/pisolero (can flurry with a pistol starting at 9th)
also, any Wis based full caster will end up with good stat synergy, all good saves, d10 HD, full BAB, etc.- a cleric with the right god, an empyreal sorcerer, or a druid could work (druid doesn't seem thematic if you think of the european origin, but if you think of him more like a native american shaman it fits much better).

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Lord Foul, it has been stated that the overlap of Mysterious Stranger and Pistolero is a mistake that is going to be fixed, as Pistolero's Pistol Training is supposed to replace Gun Training, but the last line was left off of the ability.
As far as running that game, it will be a home game. I have no clue how to run a game on the boards, and I don't think I'd want to. And yes, all 4 characters can do insane DPS, so I would almost certainly have to double or even quadruple the HP of the mobs. CR 1/2 goblins running around with 30 or 40 HP, hahaha.
And yes Nate, I've thought about it a lot and realized there were a lot of classes that synergized well with the gunslinger. The only question is, do I want to create, from scratch, an entire game world, including NPCs, locations, and encounters. That is a lot of committment.
I've already decided if I run this campaign, the BBEG is going to be a musket master/inquisitor of some evil god. Because who doesn't want to get nailed by a ranged attack line something like +40/+40/+40/+40/+35/+35/+30/+30/+25/+25 for 1d12 + 4d6 + 50 on each attack, lol.

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dang it,
double dang it
I could show you how, it's not hard
I've not done one myself, but it's not hard, I just don't have time to DM in any setting, are you anywhere near the Chattanooga/Cleveland area?
this looks like such an awesome thing and I've not gotten my fix of gestalt in a while (huh, gestalt wouldn't be a bad drug name, the tagline could be,"makes you feel like there's two of you" hmm needs work,)

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ok I'm going to turn various characters into level 20 gestalts first off the webcomic order of the stick
Elan
Bard 20/sorscerer (maestro) or wizard (enchantment or illusion) 10/dashing sordsman (in universe PrC, call it a suped up duelist if it makes you feel better)
V
Wizard 10 (evoker)/ cleric 10/psion 10/ mystic theurge 10
Durkton
cleric 20/paladin 20
Haley
Rouge 20/ranger 20
Roy... hmm roy is tricky as is he's a strait fighter (and proud of it) but he has a higher total mental stats than any of the casters in the party, and his father wanted him to be a wizard, he's LG and sympathizes with the paladins, hmm
fighter 20/paladin 5/wizard (illusionist) 5/eldritch knight 10
belkar
also tricky, ranger (two weapon fighter) is is his primary class and he has at least 3 levels of barbarian, but he is shown to have considered bard as an option (for the purpose of demoralization) and his intimidate check is through the roof, so he has a more than decent cha, though he has a wisdom of 12 or less,
Ranger 20/ either barbarian 20 or barbarian 9 oracle 1 rage prophet 10 or ranger 20 barbarian 10 bard 10

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as an extra note roy alternativly could be depicted as a fighter 20/magus 20, I don't know,
next one
Dr McNinja
Dan McNinja
Barbarian 15/alchemist 5/Ninja 10/Assassin 10 (alchemist levels optional, he might just have 20 levels of barbarian)
Ms McNinja
Ninja 10/Assassin 10/fighter 9/crimson assasin 10/shadowdancer 1
Dark smoke puncher
Ninja 10/wizard illusionist 1/ arcane trickster 10/machinesmith 19
Gordito
Gunslinger 20/Alchemist 5/ninja 5/monk 5/... I don't know what to put for the remaining 5 levels... paladin (holy gun)?
Dr Mcninja
Paladin (oath against undead) 5/alchemist (Chirurgeon, possibly herbalist, possibly not) 10/scholar or monk 5/ninja 20

nate lange RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |

is it just me or would it be kind of awesome at higher levels to have a monk of the sacred mountain/mountain druid? nice thematic synergy plus you could spend all of your time as a storm giant monk with full caster progression (mountain druids get giant shape 1+2 instead of the plant shape abilities). a large monk's unarmed strike does 4d8 at 20th level... none of the charts go this high, but based on the listed progressions i think a huge one would do 8d6 per hit... toss Strong Jaw on yourself and your base damage is 16d6! lol.
edit: i forgot about the MoSM's vow of silence, that would screw up your casting... i guess you'd have to pick a different archetype, or dip 4 levels of something else and grab a monk's robe (4 levels of inquisitor would increase your wisdom synergy even farther or fighter would get you 3 bonus feats including specialization)

Petty Alchemy RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

How about this:
Gnome Empyreal Sorc//Hungry Ghost Monk (with a dip of Heretic of Heresy Inquisitor on the monk side)
Super Heresy gives you Bluff with double your Wisdom, sweet. You're a gnome to use Bewildering Koan for swift action single target lockdown, so that Bluff bonus helps.
And you use Hungry Ghost abilities to replenish ki. It doesn't say you need to punch people to steal ki, so let's steal it with fireballs instead.

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not bad all,
I recently built a stealth/theft focused build based off of the character sam starfield
I spent 3 levels for quickling then take 4 levels of ninja (glory rouge/mage slayer) gestalted with 7 levels of shadow sorcerer then take 10 levels of arcane trickster gestalted with arcane duelist bard then finish up with assassin and sorcerer (the original build was only level 10 instead of 20 but this was the plan)
it's got full sorcerer casting,
10 levels of bard casting (4th lvl spells) and other bard stuff,
9d6 sneak attack you can use on your spells
nice assassin goodies
super speed and nice racial defenses
all in all a decently powerful build, and a very fun one to play

lemeres |

How about this for a gestalt:
That Lucky B-----d
This is a gestalt of invulnerable rager barbarian and archaeologist bard, taking advantage of the fact that its luck ability is not a performance (I never quite saw a satisfactory conclusion on whether performance can be used in rage; this avoids the issue and goes on to compliment the barbarian).
The build is mostly based around your generic superstitious, CaGM, beast totem barbarian, but you add in the Fate's Favored trait plus the Lingering Performance and Extra Performance Feats. With just a mild CHA of 14, you get 36 effective rounds a day where you get a scaling bonus ranging from +2 to +5 to attack, damage, skills, and saves. With those kinds of numbers, you can use it just about every round where you are raging.
Combined with uncanny dodge and evasion from the archaeologist, you turn the already tanky and deadly barbarian (made more so by the perfect saves of the gestalt) into a downright pain in the rear for the GM. It works well flavorwise too, since some of the abilities the archaeologist are ones that come with the vanilla barbarian, and a reliance on luck seems generally more appropriate that music (sure, there is heavy metal...but not everyone wants to play a Dethklok member).

nate lange RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |

i like the barb/archaeologist, but why not take some dragon disciple levels on the bard side :)
also, i was thinking about my earlier monk/mountain druid idea and thinking about how funny it would be to add vital strike into that build... with improved vital strike you'd punch for 48d6 base (plus str/power attack/etc- add dragon style for 1.5 str and 3:1 power attack), that's worse than failing a save against disintegrate (and even more so if you're looking at adding mythic as well- tack on mythic power attack and mythic vital strike...)

lemeres |

i like the barb/archaeologist, but why not take some dragon disciple levels on the bard side :)
also, i was thinking about my earlier monk/mountain druid idea and thinking about how funny it would be to add vital strike into that build... with improved vital strike you'd punch for 48d6 base (plus str/power attack/etc- add dragon style for 1.5 str and 3:1 power attack), that's worse than failing a save against disintegrate (and even more so if you're looking at adding mythic as well- tack on mythic power attack and mythic vital strike...)
Certainly a valid option, since the luck rounds do not scale with level. And with fate's favored, the bonuses from luck are rather front loaded, and you are getting a +3 to...just about everything...by level 5. All you are really missing out on are a few spell levels...and that would hardly be your main concern since you would be melee death incarnate already.
Your reflex saves also would not be 'perfect' anymore either...but at that point with superstition and luck, you are just giving your GM a tiny glimmer of hope of getting a spell off on you.

Majuba |

Hmmm... what about gestalt low-powered game? Say 5 point-buy, low-treasure. Maybe even a house-rule on spells to require an ability score modifier equal to spell level to cast a spell (so 10 + 2xlevel instead of 10 + level).
Probably end up with a lot of min/max characters, but it would be interesting.

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is it just me or would it be kind of awesome at higher levels to have a monk of the sacred mountain/mountain druid? nice thematic synergy plus you could spend all of your time as a storm giant monk with full caster progression (mountain druids get giant shape 1+2 instead of the plant shape abilities). a large monk's unarmed strike does 4d8 at 20th level... none of the charts go this high, but based on the listed progressions i think a huge one would do 8d6 per hit... toss Strong Jaw on yourself and your base damage is 16d6! lol.
edit: i forgot about the MoSM's vow of silence, that would screw up your casting... i guess you'd have to pick a different archetype, or dip 4 levels of something else and grab a monk's robe (4 levels of inquisitor would increase your wisdom synergy even farther or fighter would get you 3 bonus feats including specialization)
Drop 1 level of the druid for a single level of deaf oracle and you get to cast ALL of your spells as if affected by the Silent Spell feat with no change in spell level.

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Hmmm... what about gestalt low-powered game? Say 5 point-buy, low-treasure. Maybe even a house-rule on spells to require an ability score modifier equal to spell level to cast a spell (so 10 + 2xlevel instead of 10 + level).
Probably end up with a lot of min/max characters, but it would be interesting.
You're gonna get a lot of summoners, inquisitors, and bards, since they only ever need a casting stat of 22 to cast any of their spells. And with a 16 to start and a +6 item, you're at your 22.

Majuba |

Majuba wrote:You're gonna get a lot of summoners, inquisitors, and bards, since they only ever need a casting stat of 22 to cast any of their spells. And with a 16 to start and a +6 item, you're at your 22.Hmmm... what about gestalt low-powered game? Say 5 point-buy, low-treasure. Maybe even a house-rule on spells to require an ability score modifier equal to spell level to cast a spell (so 10 + 2xlevel instead of 10 + level).
Probably end up with a lot of min/max characters, but it would be interesting.
That could be an interesting consequence (though personally there wouldn't be any summoners). More likely a 14 to start and some level bumps, otherwise that leaves the rest of the stats at something like 7,9,10,10,10.
Pets might need to be toned down a slight bit. Edit: Ninja'd by nate :)

lemeres |

Majuba wrote:You're gonna get a lot of summoners, inquisitors, and bards, since they only ever need a casting stat of 22 to cast any of their spells. And with a 16 to start and a +6 item, you're at your 22.Hmmm... what about gestalt low-powered game? Say 5 point-buy, low-treasure. Maybe even a house-rule on spells to require an ability score modifier equal to spell level to cast a spell (so 10 + 2xlevel instead of 10 + level).
Probably end up with a lot of min/max characters, but it would be interesting.
Hmmm....considering that my archaeologist/barbarian idea gets bonuses out the wazoo, I think it could acutally rock that campaign.
Technically, a wizard/sorcerer/witch could be made on that build though. Not a very good one, but still possible. Just put everything into the casting stat and get a race with a bonus to that stat. No points left over for anything else, but meh. They might end up more survivable than usual since all the enemies would have to be nerfed to match the other classes. No hope for making anything gestalt though (unless you gestalt two full casters maybe), since you would not have anything leftover for phsyical stats.

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Antipaladin (Knight of the Sepulcher) & Ninja, Eldritch Heritage: Orc Bloodline
At lvl 20... something like +40 to all saves and on the first hit each round 1d10+50ish (physical damage) +72 (negative energy via Touch of Corruption, Conductive weapon) +DC ~37 for Stun/Paralysis (Cruelty) +Sneak attack (or 10 damage to an ability score; eg: Con, -100 hp effect).

christos gurd |

Could do a Paladin dip for Grace, but it seems like a squandered opportunity.
this would seem awesome with that link