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So with recent discussion about how to get FAQs answered and a side note I made in another thread found here, I've decided to post an "FAQ this please thread" regarding the use of power attack while wielding a two-handed weapon in one hand since I couldn't find an official answer elsewhere. (Hopefully I didn't just miss it.)
For those who are not familiar with this concern (and are therefore wondering why I am asking you to click the FAQ button), please consider the difference between the wording for increasing your strength bonus to damage when wielding a weapon in two hands, compared to the wording for the same concern for power attack
When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands. Emphasis, Mine.Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage. Emphasis, Mine.
So the problem is that wielding a two-handed weapon in one hand (which is achievable in a few different ways) leaves you getting 1 times your strength score, but 1 1/2 times the power attack bonus (+3 to damage rolls instead of +2 to damage rolls).
The following are examples of ways in which to utilize a two-handed weapon in one hand:
A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount. While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand.Benefit: You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon. When using an earth breaker in one hand and a klar in your off hand, you retain the shield bonus your klar grants to your Armor Class even when you use it to attack. Treat your klar as a light weapon for the purposes of determining your two-weapon fighting penalty.At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like.
The lance makes no mention of whether it's to be considered a one-handed or two-handed weapon for the purposes of strength bonus to damage (which is currently clear, actually) or power attack damage bonuses.
The Thunder and Fang feat says that you can use the earth breaker as if it were one handed, which seems to suggest that you should only get +2 damage from power attack, not +3, but it is not completely clear.
The most recent addition to the game of the above examples, Jotungrip, does address this problem by stating that "the weapon is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like."
I personally believe that the way Jotungrip works is correct and that either all ways to utilize a two-handed weapon in one hand should be clarified as such, or the wording of power attack should be changed to match the wording used in the combat section when referring to wielding a weapon in two hands.
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I don't think there is any ambiguity in any of this. None of these cases give any indication of getting the 2hd power attack benefit despite being wielded in one hand. Perhaps lance and thunder and fang could stand to have the same clarifying line as jotungrip, but just because it's not specifically called out, it doesn't mean the opposite is true.
I don't think there is any ambiguity in any of this. None of these cases give any indication of getting the 2hd power attack benefit despite being wielded in one hand. Perhaps lance and thunder and fang could stand to have the same clarifying line as jotungrip, but just because it's not specifically called out, it doesn't mean the opposite is true.
As far as I understand the rules, you follow the general rule first unless a specific rule states otherwise. The lance's complete lack of wording regarding power attack and strength bonus while using it mounted and one handed means that no specific rule over-rides the (probably poorly worded) general rule.
Don't get my wrong, I agree with you 100% that it SHOULD work that way, and I gladly house-rule it at our table, but this comes up often enough and seems like a pretty easy one to address, so I figured I'd give it a shot.
Thanks for clicking the FAQ button - assuming you did so.
So with recent discussion about how to get FAQs answered and a side note I made in another thread found here, I've decided to post an "FAQ this please thread" regarding the use of power attack while wielding a two-handed weapon in one hand since I couldn't find an official answer elsewhere. (Hopefully I didn't just miss it.)
Do you, really, honestly believe that there's any likelyhood, whatsoever, of the answer being +3 per -1?
My rule as a DM would be that if you are using a weapon one handed, you don't get the benefit of the bonus Power Attack damage.
A bastard sword allows you to use it with one hand as an exception, rather than the rule.
the RAW is clear you are stil using a two handed weapon it's in genaral larger heavyer and doese more damage than a one handed weapon so it is normal powerattack would alow 3 points of damage per -1 ATK
although the 1.5 times STR specificly states wielding two hands wich is normal if you use 2 hands you got more power behind the weapon and it doese more damage!
Not sure if you read the whole original post, but I mostly addressed t his question near the bottom...Do you, really, honestly believe that there's any likelyhood, whatsoever, of the answer being +3 per -1?So with recent discussion about how to get FAQs answered and a side note I made in another thread found here, I've decided to post an "FAQ this please thread" regarding the use of power attack while wielding a two-handed weapon in one hand since I couldn't find an official answer elsewhere. (Hopefully I didn't just miss it.)
I personally believe that the way Jotungrip works is correct and that either all ways to utilize a two-handed weapon in one hand should be clarified as such, or the wording of power attack should be changed to match the wording used in the combat section when referring to wielding a weapon in two hands.
I think the likelihood is low - however, it's possible that it will be answered that the text as written is the correct rule. It would be a mistake IMO, but it could be ruled that way.
It has also been asserted that a lance used in one hand while mounted would get the benefit of 1.5 x Str bonus to damage on the grounds that it is categorised as a two-handed weapon.
This is another possibility, though I believe a very low one.
I'm pretty sure it's easily discerned that if you're not using both hands you don't get the two handed bonus.
seriously unnecessary to FAQ every question presented
Let's see, in the 6 responses that have expressed their thoughts on the subject thus far, 4 people seem to think it best to assume power attack only gives +3 to damage rolls when a two-handed weapon is actually used two handed, while the other two assert that the rule as written is clear (which, they are correct on) and that you should get the bonus from power attack. One person even states that it could be argued that the strength bonus part is incorrect, though he may just be playing devil's advocate.
In any event, yeah, there have been enough questions raised on this one that it does warrant an FAQ. If you don't agree, that's your prerogative.
the RAW is clear you are stil using a two handed weapon it's in genaral larger heavyer and doese more damage than a one handed weapon so it is normal powerattack would alow 3 points of damage per -1 ATK
although the 1.5 times STR specificly states wielding two hands wich is normal if you use 2 hands you got more power behind the weapon and it doese more damage!
I agree that the RAW is clear, I just think it's a poor use of wording resulting in unintended consequences. Hence why I want an FAQ response.
i dont think it is a poor wording and RAI it is plausable.
Going to push this back to the first page.
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I'm pretty sure that the RAI is that you have to use two hands to get the two-handed bonus.I think you are confusing RAI with how many happen to read the rules. That doesn't make it intended.
My first thought on this:
1. Did the original designers (as this goes back to 3e) intend characters to wield a lance in two hands for more effective use?
That doesn't make sense. Likewise I see the lance as being a very strong weapon, so it doesn't seem out of line for it to have these benefits.
My next thought, let's see what the rules say:
2. They are fairly silent. They do not mention the caveats that they mention with one handed weapons.
From this, it does seem clear that a two-handed weapon gains 1.5x STR and 3:1 power attack by RAW.
Where is it grey? If the two-handed weapon is also an offhand weapon.
For power attack, it is clear: BOTH special cases for power attack apply and the ratio is adjusted back to 2:1 by stacking.
For STR bonus, it is not clear which is to take precedence over the other.
However, in the case the OP mentioned it's clear.. it is by the category of the weapon and not the number of hands. This is confusing to many, as the number of hands for a one-handed weapon alters this, but that is the special case only for one-handed weapons.
Flip the question around: can one wield a light weapon in two hands for added bonus? No, of course not.
Seems clear. But like many errors in the rules, they have been propagated at the table level for long enough to still seem murky in our guts until we cleanly read the rules.
-James
No, I'm not.
I'm making the assumption that the devs meant that the weapon needed to be wielded in two hands for the bonus, thank you. Please do not assume I mean something other than what I posted.
I would think simple common sense would dictate that the lance should get the two-handed bonus to damage on a mounted charge (after all, you do have the mass and speed of the mount behind the charge), but then again common sense doesn't always factor into the rules...
Otherwise, there's really no ambiguity on whether or not a weapon is being used one handed or two handed.
My first thought on this:
1. Did the original designers (as this goes back to 3e) intend characters to wield a lance in two hands for more effective use?
The 3.5 FAQ stated that the only thing that mattered for power attack was the manner in which the weapon was wielded, rather than what classification of weapon was used (except in the case of light weapons, which didn't benefit either way).
So, at least in the case of the 3.5 FAQ author, the intent is clear.
FAQ'ds, it will wonderful to have this never show up as another endless thread on the boards, and shut down the "but it says this" powergamers in my area.
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Otherwise, there's really no ambiguity on whether or not a weapon is being used one handed or two handed.
You are not getting the heart of the question. While is clear when a weapon is used one handed or two handed, the PA feat reads
This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls
Emphasis mine. To restate, it specificall calls for a THW, not a weapon wielded with two hand (with would also qualify light weapon wielded two-handed). So, by the RAW a thw, however is wielded, qualify for the extra damage.
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It could only be my opinion, but I believe the whole reason a two-handed weapon is called a two-handed weapon is because everyone actually wields it in two hands.
If you wield a weapon in one hand, you treat it either as a light weapon if it is a light weapon or a one-handed weapon if it is one-handed or heavier and you somewhat have a way to wield it this way (Core example: oversized weapons, the only mention of such occurence in Core and pretty clear on the whole topic being a no-issue).
Also, it has been clarified (by Jason, I believe) that a lance wielded in one hand during a charge does NOT deal 1,5x damage as a two-handed weapon.
A lot of people have posted their opinions in the last three hours, many of them diverging from one another, but only 2 or 3 people have hit the FAQ button. This is exactly the reason TO hit the FAQ button, so please do so.
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The reason to hit the FAQ button is "not knowing how a specific mechanics is supposed to be ruled because of too much contradiction or not enough information". And we already have:
- a RAW, core example ("wielding a 2H weapon undersized by one category is treated as wielding a one-handed weapon -2 for all purposes despite being a two-handed weapon"),
- a RAI, official ruling on a similar subject from a Paizo developer ("a lance wielded in one hand is a one-handed weapon for all purposes despite being a two-handed weapon")
... so there is more than enough matter to see that the RAI is clear enough about the fact that in PFRPG, a heavy weapon you can somewhat wield in one hand is always treated as one-handed, which should also strike you as the most logic interpretation. You already get a damage boost by wielding a two-handed weapon over a one-handed.
I don't see the need to waste the time of Paizo officials again on this matter.
I hit the FAQ. My opinion tough is that without using two hands you dont get the 1.5. Its just simple physics and logic. Yes those weapons are heavy but if you cant bring the right momentum, if you cant put all of your strenght behind the swing, you just wont be effective. I think people who read it any other way are blatantly misreading on purpose because it supports whatever built they have in mind. As in law, the spirit of the rule is what is important.
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I'm making the assumption that the devs meant that the weapon needed to be wielded in two hands for the bonus, thank you.Why on earth would you make that assumption?
This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls.Here they specifically separate out a two-handed weapon from a one handed weapon using two hands. If your assumption were to be true, then they've purposefully obfuscated things here AND made the wording more convoluted than it would need to be for no reason.
Likewise the section on weapon categories: if two-handed weapons were to be different based on the number of hands used to wield them, then simply taking the SAME text from one handed weapons would work.
Lastly, again in the spirit of 'does it make sense modeling' do you feel that the designers intended characters to use a lance more effectively with two hands rather than just one?
To me the last seems silly, though perfectly within the rules and something that most everyone would do with your assumption in place.
This part of the rules is crystal clear. Whether it is palatable to you or not, depends on how you feel about encouraging characters to use a lance with two hands while mounted.
Again the only ambiguity in my mind is what happens when a two-handed weapon (used in two-hands) is the off-hand weapon in terms of STR bonus to damage.
-James
It is a holdover from 3.5, and perhaps they only wanted it to work with weapons that were meant to be used in 2 hands, and not weapons meant for one. You single out the lance, and for good reason...it is, in fact, singled out, and does double damage when used from horseback, in a charge.
Remember, when they wrote the core book, that was the one exceptional case...and they specified what happened when it was used in one hand.
The game has defined terms of two-handed weapon (a weapon that requires 2 hands to wield), a one-handed weapon (a weapon that requires 1 hand to wield, and that may be wielded in two hands for additional bonuses), and light weapons (one-handed weapons with some special rules and that cannot be wielded in two hands for additional bonuses).
The game then has effects and abilities that work with these different types of weapons. In the core rules, it is fairly clear that wielding a weapon in 2 hands uses 1.5x your Str for damage, while wielding a weapon in 1 hand uses just your Str bonus. Then, wielding an off-hand weapon deals 1/2x your Str bonus.
Power Attack, as written, works in basically the same way: using 2-hands gives you 1.5x PA damage, while using 1 hand gives you just the flat bonus. The writer specifically calls out using a 1-handed weapon wielded in two hands because that is a likely possibility and they want to ensure that people doing so will gain the benefit they intend. Finally, Power Attack provides only 1/2 the bonus on off-hand attacks. In this way, Power Attack mimics your Str bonus to damage based on how you wield a weapon.
In the core rules, there's almost no way to wield a 2-handed weapon in one hand, so the developers probably didn't feel the need to further "clarify" that point (remember: at least part of the writers' job for these things is to make things readable, and to pare stuff down to a manageable length). If Power Attack works the same way as Str bonus for 2-handed weapons, 1-handed weapons, 1-handed weapons wielded in two hands, and weapons used to make off-hand attacks. If it exactly mirrors the way Str gets applied to your damage in all other ways, why would it work differently for two-handed weapons wielded in 1 hand?
Note also that the core rules don't make mention of using a two-handed weapon in 1 hand, or how doing so would reduce the Str bonus you're adding to your damage, again, because the situation doesn't come up in the core rules. Yet, in the non-Core, basically every example of wielding a two-handed weapon in 1 hand states that you only receive your Str bonus, not 1.5x Str.
Wouldn't it follow, then, that Power Attack, which thus far as worked exactly the same way as Str to damage has, would work the same way in THIS instance as well? Note that most of the verbiage in both cases refers to HOW the weapon is wielded, rather than the size-designation of the weapon. This is merely a case of the game using the same terms or expressions for multiple purposes, is in the same way the word "level" gets used (character level, class level, spell level, caster level, the [class] level at which you gain X level of spells, the level of the ground, and the level of the dungeon). It's a little ambiguous, yes, but not so much so that the WAI shouldn't be obvious. I realize that some people don't find it so obvious, but I think that they are either misreading things because they WANT it to work that way, or because they just can't see the forest for the trees.
As for the lance, yes, it is the most prominent example in the core rules of a two-handed weapon being wielded in 1 hand and sadly is missing any clarifying language on how it works with Str and Power Attack, BUT if you apply the logic that went into the rules for applying Str and Power Attack to weapons based on how you wield them, you'll see that you treat it as a one-handed weapon for those purposes. The ability to wield the thing in one hand is there for specific purposes: to allow you to mimic the image of the jousting knight, allowing you to use a shield at the same time, and so you can use a hand on the reins of your mount if you want rather than having to guide it with your knees. You're already getting other bonuses for using a lance upon a charging mount (double damage, and the possibility of triple damage with a feat). It doesn't also need to gain further bonuses that aren't called out in the rules anywhere to be rather excellent.
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So, the damage from the horse charge...F = 10M x A
So in our freindly example, a man weilding a lance one handed from horseback does 10 times more damage when he hits, than a man weilding it two-handed from foot.
As for logic, have you ever seen a lance charge?
Sure, D20 is a system known to provide F.A.T.A.L amounts of reality simulation.
FYI, a lance used by a 18 Str, 1st-level PA fighter would deal 1d8+6+3 = 1d8+9 damage, average 13,5. The same lance used while mounted and one-handed would deal 2x(1d8+4+2) = 2d8+12, average 21 damage.
Wielding it two-handed would deal 2x(1d8+6+3) = 2d8+18, average 27 damage.
Ho, now you spend a single feat and you deal 3x damage.
While mounted and one-handed, you would deal 3x(1d8+4+2) = 3d8+18, average 31,5 damage. Wielding it two-handed would deal 3x(1d8+6+3) = 3d8+27, average 40,5 damage.
With a single feat, you already deal more than 2,5 times your normal 2Hded damage despite using it in a single hand, and you most likely have a shield to gain durability, unlike the same fighter on foot, + 1 to attack rolls for being on higher grounds. THIS is how the lance is mechanically and thematically balanced over the guy using it like a giant rapier; not with some ridiculous mc^2 calculation.
Wielding a 2-handed weapon in one hand follows the exact same logic : you promote your 1d8 longsword to 2d6 and still retain your ability to wield a shield, meaning you deal 3d6 when enlarged and still have awesome AC... which is supposed to be the whole spirit behind the Titan Mauler if editing didn't neuter it to sheer, sad brokenness.
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Could you link that? I don't recall seeing it and I can't find it in the FAQ, where would it be?
Also, what then happens when someone wields the lance in TWO hands during a charge?
Jason Nelson on the RAI behind wielding 2Hded weapons in one hand (which you will recognize as the designer and writer of both the Titan Mauler and the Phalanx Soldier, the only ones able break the Core handleness limitations).
James Jacobs on wielding a lance in one hand.
Lastly, you seem to be confusing the rules in regards to inappropriate sized weapons vs hands on the weapon. To whit: a large sized longsword *is* a two-handed weapon for a medium sized wielder, whereas a medium sized longsword wielded in two hands is STILL a one handed weapon.
I'm not confusing the rules. It is clearly said you may wield a smaller two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon, albeit at a -2 penalty, like the archetypes allow you to do by treating a 2H weapon as a one-handed weapon instead.
=> Core already shows us that a 2H weapon in one hand is not a 2H weapon anymore, and thus you don't get to deal damage as if using a weapon wielded in two-hands. Unless obviously you decide to wield this small, two-handed weapon which you treat as a one-handed weapon by gripping it as a two-handed, one handed weapon ; exactly like if using a Phalanx's or Titan Mauler's grip.|
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My first thought on this:
1. Did the original designers (as this goes back to 3e) intend characters to wield a lance in two hands for more effective use?
The 3.5 FAQ stated that the only thing that mattered for power attack was the manner in which the weapon was wielded, rather than what classification of weapon was used (except in the case of light weapons, which didn't benefit either way).
So, at least in the case of the 3.5 FAQ author, the intent is clear.
Also, in 3.0, the lance was (the equivalent of) a one-handed weapon.
Sorry, I was unclear. If the lance is used couched under one arm in a classic armored knight charge, one hand on the lance the other holding a shield, is the lance treated as a two handed or a one handed weapon for purposes of Strength and Power-attack damage?Since you're using one hand, you treat it as a one-handed weapon.
The writing of the lance has not changed since 3e came out, and while the wording on feats like power attack have.. they still use the same phrasing to distinguish how the weapon is treated from how many hands are being used on the weapon.
In case you missed it above, the 3.5 FAQ stated that you didn't get two-handed benefits of Power Attack when wielding a lance with one hand.
So has it been concluded that no, you don't get two handed weapon damage bonus on power attack?
So has it been concluded that no, you don't get two handed weapon damage bonus on power attack?
I suppose it depends what you mean by, "concluded." If you mean, indicated strongly by a dev, then I believe so. If you mean, sussed out applying close reading, analysis and logic to prove the point, then yes. If you mean, proven to such a degree that no one who wanted to see it differently, and would use any bit of vague language to justify such a claim...then no.
It also depends on what your question is exactly.
No 2-handed Str or PA bonus on weapons wielded with one hand, whether they are 2-handed or 1-handed.
No 2-handed Str or PA bonus on a lance being wielded in one hand while mounted (which really should just be clear from the above).
I hit the FAQ. My opinion tough is that without using two hands you dont get the 1.5. Its just simple physics and logic. Yes those weapons are heavy but if you cant bring the right momentum, if you cant put all of your strenght behind the swing, you just wont be effective. I think people who read it any other way are blatantly misreading on purpose because it supports whatever built they have in mind. As in law, the spirit of the rule is what is important.Alright then.
Physics.
F = MA (Force = mass x acceleration)
Lets say force is equivalent to damage.
A man holds a lance in two hands and charages at you.
F = M x A
(M = Man's mass, A = Man's acceleration)A man holds a lance one-handed, sits on a horse and charges you. Let's assume the horse accelerates at the same rate as a man (it doesn't, it's accelerates faster, certainly than an armoured fighter). A heavy warhorse weighs near on a tonne. A man in fighting gear, lets round up and say 100kg.
So, the damage from the horse charge...
F = 10M x A
So in our freindly example, a man weilding a lance one handed from horseback does 10 times more damage when he hits, than a man weilding it two-handed from foot.
As for logic, have you ever seen a lance charge?
Whats your point? There are already rules about using a lance while charging, they deal double damage. When you know what your doing (read:with the right feat) it becomes triple damage. your not swinging the damn thing around either, you line it up and let the horse do the rest. Your goal when jousting is to hit a man somewhere vital, usually in the chest. I've never seen it in the flesh but i've seen my fair share done by professionals on documentary-like history programs.
Now i dont know exactly hom much a rider's strength should account for in this mix but i do know that using two hands to do this would not only be useless, it would be detrimental. Your posture would work against you. Adding 1.5 str damage to this? Why? How? Because your charging on a horse? Remember there are already rules on that it dosnt need more.
But we are not debating about how much the rules of charging with a horse makes sense here. We are talking about using a two handed wepon in one hand and power attacking. The reason why you deal 1,5 dam with a two handed weapon whike power attacking is because your entire body gets thrown in the mix. From the way your feet are positioned to the swing of your hips, the muscles of your calves, thighs bottocks, back and abdominals, pectorals, arms and forearms all participating together to bring the massive weapon to bear. You just dont fight the same way using just one arm. You dont solicit your muscle groups the same way. You dont get 1.5 and saying "but its a two handed weapon, its written right here" is bull ****. If your not using tow hands on it, it becomes one handed, plain and simple. What counts is how many hands are on the weapon, not what weapon category it was in.
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just to re-iterate a point from earlier
Jotungrip (Ex): At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
This seems to clearly change a two handed weapon in a one handed version it sounds to me is this is not specificly stated normal would be that you would stil get 3 point of damage per -1 atk
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Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.
It seems pretty freaking clear that in addition to having to wield a two-handed weapon, you must also be wielding in two hands.
-edit-
I'm sure some will point to the equipment section that says
One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
there are two difrent things powerattack and 1.5 times STR are not the same and dnot need to be handled the same
1.5 times str is only for wielding a weapon with 2 hands
3 damage per -1atk for powerattack is for wielding a two handed weapon!
they dont mix!