If I'm summoning elementals, I'll summon air elementals to deal with flight, water elementals against boats or sharks, and earth elementals if I want Earth Glide. But to mess up regular, non-flying foes not particularly resistant to flame, I'd expect a fire elemental to be my go-to guy. Destruction is the very core quality of Fire, after all.
But the stats...
The Small Fire Elemental, if it hits with a +4 attack, and the target fails all saves, an average of 1d4+(1d4*1d4)= 8,75 damage. Giving the average opponent a +0 reflex save modifier and assuming he wont bother to spend an action putting out his burning pants drops this to 5,625.
Meanwhile, the small earth elemental attacks at +7 for 8,5 damage - not damage over time, no saves involved, just more damage. He also has +1 AC and +2 Hp over the fire elemental, just to rub it in.
For the medium elementals, it's +7 to hit for 8,875 damage against ref save +3, vs +10 for 12,5 damage.
With the large fire elemental, it's +12 to hit, assuming ref +5 for easy math, for 24,25 damage, but the Earth elemental has +15 for 30 points.
The earth elemental outperforms the fire elemental by a lot. And i'm not even going into fire resistance or the suckiness of damage-over-time.
Don't discount damage over time effects. Also, you're comparing hard, granite-style stone hitting your face compared to fire. The stone is going to do a lot more up front damage. It makes sense.
While the fire elemental is on the weak side, it's still within the CR guidelines. Probably the biggest problem is that it doesn't get a cool special ability like the other elementals. It gets burn on attack, but as you've pointed out that's offset by its low strength score.
Don't discount damage over time effects. Also, you're comparing hard, granite-style stone hitting your face compared to fire. The stone is going to do a lot more up front damage. It makes sense.
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. The fire elementals damage-over-time, even assuming you don't waste time putting it out, is less than the earth elementals up-front damage.
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Reasons I can think of:
1) Need for speed! If you want more power than an air elemental but more speed than an earth elemental, fire is your middle road.
2) Enemies that are vulnerable to fire.
3) Enemies that are using fire attacks.
4) Perhaps you want to burn something down?
Not useless, although certainly not as good as an earth elemental in most situations.
It's not just a raw damage comparison.
The fire elemental is also more than twice as fast (50' vs 20' -- it can catch stuff the earth elemental can't), with enough Acrobatics it can maybe dodge an AoO from minor monsters, and it's immune to fire (which might be handy in some circumstances, like retrieving something from a lava pool or a burning house).
Also, if you want to set things on fire (say, a lot of houses) the earth elemental can't do anything; the fire elemental can wreak a LOT more havoc on anything dry. No reason for objects to stop burning once they're aflame, if it's dry and warm and conditions are right.
Maybe you're up against a plant or ice creature that's vulnerable to fire and takes extra damage from it.
Maybe you want a circumstance bonus on your negotiations with the efreet and you want a few fiery servants to feed his ego?
Not all mooks are created equal in damage. It's up to you to find creative uses for them other than head-to-head combat.
Continuous damage from burning also forces a concentration check for a caster trying to use spells.
Concentration DC is only 10 + spell level + half the damage dealt with continuous damage, such as from Burn (rather than full damage such as with a regular attack).
It's a rather easy check to make as far as Concentration checks go.
Damage over time.
You realize that the fire elemental is capable of dishing out way more damage than you're giving it credit for?
Round 1: 2d4
Round 2: 3d4
Round 3: 4d4
Round 4: 5d4
Round 5: 6d4
That's 20d4 in 5 rounds. An average of 50 damage.
The earth elemental does:
Round 1: 1d6+4
Round 2: 1d6+4
Round 3: 1d6+4
Round 4: 1d6+4
Round 5: 1d6+4
That's 5d6+20. An average of 37.5 damage.
Yes, given that the fire elemental hits less often and given that a lot of that damage can be offset by REF saves, the numbers won't add up quite so nicely for it, but it is capable of that kind of output.
Then again, sick that fire elemental on any creature with Fire Vulnerability and you could be looking at around 75 damage - they are truly the bane of Ice Mephits the world over...
Damage over time.
You realize that the fire elemental is capable of dishing out way more damage than you're giving it credit for?
Round 1: 2d4
Round 2: 3d4
Round 3: 4d4
Round 4: 5d4
Round 5: 6d4That's 20d4 in 5 rounds. An average of 50 damage.
Your assumption is that Burn stacks?
Burn doesn't seem all that different than bleed so I would stack it, but if you wouldn't, the elemental might hit 5 different enemies, the damage is the same, and if I am sending it after mooks and I know the burn won't stack, I'll try to set as many on fire as I can - and I think a fire elemental would too, it's sort-of its thing.
Atarlost, I was only counting 4 "additional" rounds of burn, assuming a the 1d4 turns up a 4 on the first round, a 3 or 4 on the second, a 2, 3, or 4 on the third, and not worrying about the 4th round since it will get at least a 1 - that's actually average rolls for the duration but in a lucky order. And it's only 5 consecutive hits (if you summon a creature that attacks once per round and gets 10 consecutive hits, you obviously didn't waste your best spells summoning a small fire elemental when you could have summoned anything on the Summon Monster V table instead).
Of course, the 20d4 also assumes 5 consecutive hits with a low attack bonus and 4 failed REF 11 saves and nobody takes any actions to put out the fire. Which is why I said that the numbers usually won't add up quite so nicely.
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Side note:
None of this even considered the fact that anything attacking the Fire Elemental risks taking additional burn damage. Which means they can freely provoke AoOs since many things won't want to hit them and anything that does might take damage itself.
Now if only they grappled...
I just realized that it doesn't matter if burn stacks. It's still less damage, at a loer attack bonus, than the earth elemental.
Don't forget that :
- some creatures/objects are vulnerable to fire
- their immunity might be very useful
- they are faster than most elementals and have spring attack giving them considerable mobility
- any creature that attacks them with natural weapons also suffers fire damage and risk of burning
- augment summoning does little to help it's attack bonus but it does help the burn DC so it is not a complete loss
- energy damage penetrates DR, which might be useful at times
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Except it doesn't stack : same effects from the same source does not stack UNLESS it is precised otherwise.
It's not just a raw damage comparison.
The fire elemental is also more than twice as fast (50' vs 20' -- it can catch stuff the earth elemental can't), with enough Acrobatics it can maybe dodge an AoO from minor monsters, and it's immune to fire (which might be handy in some circumstances, like retrieving something from a lava pool or a burning house).
Also, if you want to set things on fire (say, a lot of houses) the earth elemental can't do anything; the fire elemental can wreak a LOT more havoc on anything dry. No reason for objects to stop burning once they're aflame, if it's dry and warm and conditions are right.
have it center a wand of fireballs spell on itself.....
There's another concern too, weight. Granted it doesn't come up very often, but perhaps it should, more powerful Earth Elementals very quickly become extremely heavy, a Large is 6000 lbs, a huge 48,000 lbs, a greater 54,000 lbs and an elder 60,000 lbs. There's plenty of situations I can think of where that kind of weight won't be supported.
There's another concern too, weight. Granted it doesn't come up very often, but perhaps it should, more powerful Earth Elementals very quickly become extremely heavy, a Large is 6000 lbs, a huge 48,000 lbs, a greater 54,000 lbs and an elder 60,000 lbs. There's plenty of situations I can think of where that kind of weight won't be supported.
-Caverns where the floor under your feet may be very thin
-The second floors of towers/dungeons-Houses
A few.
Fire Elementals are based more on "annoyance combat" than sheer efficiency. Mostly due to their Spring Attack feat + high speed. They may even be able to outright strike and kite slower characters completely. And if it's a large or stronger elemental, it can use the spring attack to force attackers to keep entering its reach.
It's a slow, tedius, mostly annoying tactic on the opposition rather than a particularly lethal kind. Which makes it great for the DM to mess with the party, but for the party...seldom if ever worth using. They want to end the battle quickly and move on, they don't really care that much about how survivable the summon is vs. how much damage it can inflict immediately, and they tend to want to use them as meat shields or flankers for the rogue (which means they just want something to mostly hold one spot and block off enemies - spring attacking is the worst possible attack form for that!). So for the PCs, summoning fire elementals is pretty awful.
(Elemental Body is even worse... "I NEVER get fire immunity, just dinky res 20 that's inferior to a level 2 spell, but I DO get to enjoy cold vulnerability? ...Can I just pass on that 'bonus', please?")
...I swear I posted in this thread...
I've been summoning them in a campaign when attacked at night. They may not pack the punch of the earth elementals, but they're obviously a source of light.
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I've been summoning them in a campaign when attacked at night. They may not pack the punch of the earth elementals, but they're obviously a source of light.
Using them against creatures with light blindness... not something I've thought of, but would totally work!
Yeah, Odraude, I had posted something too...odd...
Anyhow, the Druid in our Kingmaker game wildshaped into a Large fire elemental and summoned another one to fight some trolls, and it went splendidly. Obviously "they're great against trolls" is a bit of acorner case, but lots of monsters use natural weapons and therefore take damage every time they hit the fire elementals.
Regarding Elemental Body, the Huge fire elemental form gets a +6 Dex bonus which stacks with most other Dex bonuses. This can be a great benefit for AC, Reflex saves, CMD, and even attacks with Weapon Finesse.
Burn doesn't seem all that different than bleed so I would stack it, but if you wouldn't, the elemental might hit 5 different enemies, the damage is the same, and if I am sending it after mooks and I know the burn won't stack, I'll try to set as many on fire as I can - and I think a fire elemental would too, it's sort-of its thing.
Bleed doesnt stack.
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I find that I use fire elementals more for property damage rather than combat. Nothing can set fire to that orphana- I mean, villain lair quite like a fire elemental.
...I swear I posted in this thread...
Same...
The ghosts of Pompeii want to talk to you.There has been a tradition of hierarchy in dnd of earth elementals being on top with usually water next then fire then wind I believe
Think about how much damage each of them causes
Earth: earthquakes, mudslides etc.
Water: Floods, tsunamis,
Wind: Hurricanes
Fire: FirestormsWhile firestorms can cause a good deal of damage a large part of this has to do with really stupid public fire service policy and not the fire itself. It kind of makes sense that the essence of earth does more.
Though in fairness that was as much earth damage as fire damage.
Though in fairness that was as much earth damage as fire damage.The ghosts of Pompeii want to talk to you.There has been a tradition of hierarchy in dnd of earth elementals being on top with usually water next then fire then wind I believe
Think about how much damage each of them causes
Earth: earthquakes, mudslides etc.
Water: Floods, tsunamis,
Wind: Hurricanes
Fire: FirestormsWhile firestorms can cause a good deal of damage a large part of this has to do with really stupid public fire service policy and not the fire itself. It kind of makes sense that the essence of earth does more.
Flaming ash disagrees.
If an opponent is airborne or waterborne, the elemental takes a –4 penalty on attack and damage rolls.
Thats about the only reason
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Fire elementals can also be more effective against foes with Damage Reduction, since the fire damage, being energy, bypasses DR.
Fire elementals also have a better ground speed than Earth Elementals (granted, if you need speed, air elementals are probably the way to go, but if an air elemental would be overkill for speed, the fire elemental dishes out more damage.) Similarly, by default them come kitted out with mobility feats instead of power attack feats, which fits certain environments/foes much better. For instance, Huge fire elementals have Combat Reflexes and a +7 dexterity bonus, meaning they can make a lot of AoOs in the right circumstances.
Fire elementals have better Touch ACs, which matters quite a bit against some enemies.
Fire elementals have a better initiative: if your GM gives summoned monsters their own init, this can make a surprising difference.
By RAW, they should never have their own initiative. They arrive on your turn when the spell completes and act immediately, thus giving them your initiative by default.
Heck, if you did make them roll init for when they could act as a houserule, you'd actually hilariously reverse the utility of high initiative. Think about it. The summoning caster has init count of 12, say. He summons fire elementals, they get an init roll of 15. Because their init is higher than the summoner's, they have to wait for the entire round to go through before they can act, while as if they had rolled very low... say, a 6... they could have acted sooner. They werre not there let alone in combat at the previous init count 15, so they could not have delayed their turn. The houserule means you would WANT your summons to roll low...at least, lower than you did. And the fire elemental's high init bonus becomes a hindrance.
Could the elementals end up rolling lower than the summoner? Sure. But as long as their init modifier is higher than the summoner's, the odds are greater they will roll higher than him and lose a turn.
It's actually good when you summon something before combat, in which they'd get their own initiative. Had that come up recently.
I'm sure floods, tsunamis, etc... have killed more people than fires or earthquakes. What does any of this have to do with the thread topic, though?
I think a big rock hitting you in the face is why earth elementals hit so hard.
Historical context is not a factor.
How are you getting 1d4 X 1d4?
I see what you mean now, but you wont be getting 2d4 on top of the fire damage.
You get slam 1d4
fire damage 1d4
burn 1d4
The burn damage does not stack.