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Okay, for the first time ever I am choosing to play a paladin whose deity is LN instead of LG... specifically the goddess of vengence. I'm trying ro make a party friendly paladin who is much more lenient with the otner party memebers, and doesn't mind if THEY set traps, use poison, or kill prisoners... So long as the target is evil. Thia paladin does indeed believe that as long as evil is being punished for its crimes, that these measures are fine, and worshipping rhe goddess of vengence supporfs this belief.
Is this roleplayable? I mean, 'standard' paladins wouldn't put up with this, but I see this character as more of a Judge Dredd.
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I believe Michael is speaking of Dranngvit, the dwarf goddess of vengeance. According to the blurb I'm reading, very few dwarfs would take this goddess as a patron, and most that would are 'consumed by hatred and nothing else'.
I'm not sure if that's a good paladin fit, but if you think you can make it work with the code, go for it!
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I think a paladin of a LN god would take the god's teaching, and then try and apply them in a goodly fashion.
However, if you want a Judge Dread like character, take a look at the Hellknight Prestige Class. It's pretty much a LN version of a paladin.
I was going to suggest this, as well as inquisitor.
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I believe Michael is speaking of Dranngvit, the dwarf goddess of vengeance. According to the blurb I'm reading, very few dwarfs would take this goddess as a patron, and most that would are 'consumed by hatred and nothing else'.
I'm not sure if that's a good paladin fit, but if you think you can make it work with the code, go for it!
TECHNICALLY I could make it work witht he code, but roleplay-wise it would be hard... Is there any way that I could avoid playing a paladin that's a pain in the *ss for everyone else? Possibly a paladin of Abadar?
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Okay, for the first time ever I am choosing to play a paladin whose deity is LN instead of LG... specifically the goddess of vengence. I'm trying ro make a party friendly paladin who is much more lenient with the otner party memebers, and doesn't mind if THEY set traps, use poison, or kill prisoners... So long as the target is evil. Thia paladin does indeed believe that as long as evil is being punished for its crimes, that these measures are fine, and worshipping rhe goddess of vengence supporfs this belief.
Is this roleplayable? I mean, 'standard' paladins wouldn't put up with this, but I see this character as more of a Judge Dredd.
I'm going to disagree with the bolded party. It just bugs me whenever I see this assumption that paladins have to be unrealistic "I must prevent anyone from ever doing anything even remotely not un-saintly" lawful stupid machines.
You mention setting traps, using poison, and killing prisoners. My paladin of Iomedae would deal with a party member wanting to set traps or use poison with "I've been trained to confront evil head on, with my sword and bow, not such trickery. But if this is the most effective means you have for fighting the forces of evil, then I won't argue with it." And as far as killing prisoners, as long as they're involved in evil activities, and you're not some place near a prison to turn them over to proper authorities, she has no problem with being judge, jury, and executioner. But if you've got prisoners in the middle of Absalom, she'll probably lean towards turning them over to the city guard instead of killing them.
And really, that's what I expect from all paladins, though that's not how most people play them. Paladins of Sarenrae might be an exception on the killing prisoners thing. Being a NG goddess of redemption, she'd be more likely to want her paladins to offer enemies a chance to redeem themselves, though even Sarenrae knows a lost soul when she sees one.
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I think a paladin of a LN god would take the god's teaching, and then try and apply them in a goodly fashion.
However, if you want a Judge Dread like character, take a look at the Hellknight Prestige Class. It's pretty much a LN version of a paladin.
I actually haven't thought about that. Though it looks like I'm going to have to do so with a fighter. (the hellknights don't seem to roleplay well with paladins...)
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Okay, for the first time ever I am choosing to play a paladin whose deity is LN instead of LG... specifically the goddess of vengence. I'm trying ro make a party friendly paladin who is much more lenient with the otner party memebers, and doesn't mind if THEY set traps, use poison, or kill prisoners... So long as the target is evil. Thia paladin does indeed believe that as long as evil is being punished for its crimes, that these measures are fine, and worshipping rhe goddess of vengence supporfs this belief.
Is this roleplayable? I mean, 'standard' paladins wouldn't put up with this, but I see this character as more of a Judge Dredd.
I'm going to disagree with the bolded party. It just bugs me whenever I see this assumption that paladins have to be unrealistic "I must prevent anyone from ever doing anything even remotely not un-saintly" lawful stupid machines.
You mention setting traps, using poison, and killing prisoners. My paladin of Iomedae would deal with a party member wanting to set traps or use poison with "I've been trained to confront evil head on, with my sword and bow, not such trickery. But if this is the most effective means you have for fighting the forces of evil, then I won't argue with it." And as far as killing prisoners, as long as they're involved in evil activities, and you're not some place near a prison to turn them
over to proper authorities, she has no problem with being judge, jury, and executioner. But if you've got prisoners in the middle of Absalom, she'll probably lean towards turning them over to the city guard instead of killing them.And really, that's what I expect from all paladins, though that's not how most people play them. Paladins of Sarenrae might be an exception on the killing prisoners thing. Being a NG goddess of redemption, she'd be more likely to want her paladins to offer enemies a chance to redeem themselves, though even Sarenrae knows a lost soul when she sees one.
I did want to avoid lawful stupid (my god, did I want to avoid that). Personally, I think that the paladin would act as an executioner if need be, but I wasn't sure what most DMs thought of this. The last time I had a paladin execute an evil prisoner, he immediatly converted me to Lawful Neutral. I tried to explain that he was doing what his god would have wanted him to do, but the DM seemed like he WANTED me to play into lawful stupid.
AND we were in a dungeon in the middle of the wilderness. Not a city for miles. I couldn't just let the prisoner's free, and I definitely couldn't leave them tied up to a tree to starve to death. I don't know, maybe it was just him.
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Michael, your GM was being a jerk.
Take a look at the paladin codes in Faiths of Purity. Paladins of Torag are specifically forbidden from taking prisoners: "Against my people's enemies I will show no mercy. I will not allow their surrender, except to extract information."
As for hellknight paladins, I have a friend who did that. But she also dumped her wisdom and intelligence down to 7 each so she could afford to start with a 20 charisma, and she really role played the character's stupidity, which made following contradictory codes surprisingly easy. :lol:
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Michael, your GM was being a jerk.
Take a look at the paladin codes in Faiths of Purity. Paladins of Torag are specifically forbidden from taking prisoners: "Against my people's enemies I will show no mercy. I will not allow their surrender, except to extract information."
As for hellknight paladins, I have a friend who did that. But she also dumped her wisdom and intelligence down to 7 each so she could afford to start with a 20 charisma, and she really role played the character's stupidity, which made following contradictory codes surprisingly easy. :lol:
Hm... Maybe I should have noticed my GM was a douche when in our CoC campaign, he put us up against Cthulhu himself... twenty minutes in.
And hehehe. Roleplaying stupidity. Never thought to do that. I just might try it. As for the paladin, I decided to make the patron god Ragathiel. My cause is worthy enough for vengence...
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Hm... Maybe I should have noticed my GM was a douche when in our CoC campaign, he put us up against Cthulhu himself... twenty minutes in.
... Wait wait wait. WHAT?! That's one of those moments where someone needs an application of the pimphand. Kidding aside though, ... WHAT?! I'm assuming you either A.) only fought his fingernail or B.) it was a fight where you were meant to get insta-pwnd and somehow survive. Classic unwinnable story battle. Otherwise that GM is on several illegal substances. >_>
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... Wait wait wait. WHAT?! That's one of those moments where someone needs an application of the pimphand. Kidding aside though, ... WHAT?! I'm assuming you either A.) only fought his fingernail or B.) it was a fight where you were meant to get insta-pwnd and somehow survive. Classic unwinnable story battle. Otherwise that GM is on several illegal substances. >_>
Hm... Maybe I should have noticed my GM was a douche when in our CoC campaign, he put us up against Cthulhu himself... twenty minutes in.
He went with the whole "somehow survived" method. It was a shame too because he used that as an excuse to take away all the money/explosives we had stored away in an isolated bunker in Nevada. Because apparently when six people simultaneously go insane, it doesn't matter whether or not they were planning to stop the end of the world, the government really just needs to take your guns away. Needless to. Say that we were TPKd three hours in.
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The only Neutral god with Paladins in Golarion is Abadar.
It's in Player Compagnon Faiths of Balance
There's a prestige class for Monks/Paladins of Irori, so this isn't actually true. It is true that Abadar's the only LN deity with an expanded Paladin Code in Faiths of Balance (since Irorans are to find their own path to perfection, and that path is never the same for each person.)
Sidenote: The Paladin Codes in Faiths of Purity/Balance are not PFS-legal, so a paladin of Torag isn't going to fall for escorting goblins anywhere. Needless to say, he can feel awkward about it and express his concern the whole trip, but he's not losing class abilities for not smiting them.
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The only Neutral god with Paladins in Golarion is Abadar.
It's in Player Compagnon Faiths of Balance
There's a prestige class for Monks/Paladins of Irori, so this isn't actually true. It is true that Abadar's the only LN deity with an expanded Paladin Code in Faiths of Balance (since Irorans are to find their own path to perfection, and that path is never the same for each person.)
Sidenote: The Paladin Codes in Faiths of Purity/Balance are not PFS-legal, so a paladin of Torag isn't going to fall for escorting goblins anywhere. Needless to say, he can feel awkward about it and express his concern the whole trip, but he's not losing class abilities for not smiting them.
You may want to peruse this thread which explains that all LG, LN, and NG deities can have paladins
As for the sidenote: that's a tricky argument. If you're playing a Paladin, you have to hold true to something. Saying "my Paladin of Shelyn would ordinarily refuse to destroy artwork but fortunately this is PFS so I'll deface this mural like my faction leader wanted me to and not suffer any consequences" is exploiting a perceived loophole. I probably would have that Paladin fall (after explaining to the player the consequences of her actions and letting her change her mind).
As many threads will attest, playing a Paladin is HARD! If you are truly playing a Paladin and not just "this guy with armor who smites things;" sometimes you have to walk away from a table or play another character.
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Sidenote: The Paladin Codes in Faiths of Purity/Balance are not PFS-legal, so a paladin of Torag isn't going to fall for escorting goblins anywhere. Needless to say, he can feel awkward about it and express his concern the whole trip, but he's not losing class abilities for not smiting them.You may want to peruse this thread which explains that all LG, LN, and NG deities can have paladins
As for the sidenote: that's a tricky argument. If you're playing a Paladin, you have to hold true to something. Saying "my Paladin of Shelyn would ordinarily refuse to destroy artwork but fortunately this is PFS so I'll deface this mural like my faction leader wanted me to and not suffer any consequences" is exploiting a perceived loophole. I probably would have that Paladin fall (after explaining to the player the consequences of her actions and letting her change her mind).
As many threads will attest, playing a Paladin is HARD! If you are truly playing a Paladin and not just "this guy with armor who smites things;" sometimes you have to walk away from a table or play another character.
And again, I'm going to have to disagree with this stereotype about paladins.
Yes, they have to hold themselves to a code of honor. But it's not that hard, and they don't have to be perfect. It's all about striving to follow the code, not being perfect in all things. The PC is still supposed to be human(oid), with all the strengths and weaknesses of personality that entails. Yes, if they screw up a few times, they'll fall, but they shouldn't fall for doing something that's against their code one time, unless it's blatantly "I kill the orphan for no reason" evil. Especially since most of the time, they'll have a good reason for being conflicted about obeying their code, and their god(dess) will understand that they're just trying to do the right thing, obeying the spirit of being lawful and good instead of the exact letter of the law. Except maybe Abadar, since obeying the exact letter of the law is his whole schtick.
In the case of the Silver Crusade faction mission to destroy a piece of art that you hinted at, if I were the GM for a paladin (or cleric or inquisitor, for that matter) of Shelyn, I might remind them that their goddess probably wouldn't approve of the destruction of any art, even if it's so offensive. If they did it anyway, I might put a warning on their chronicle sheet about it, but I certainly wouldn't have them fall if it's a first offense (though I would check their past chronicle sheets for past warnings).
For a paladin of Torag, I always took the thing about not taking prisoners to refer to immediate threats. ie No taking prisoners at the end of a battle, but once the enemy is defeated, you don't have to go around slaughtering anyone who was even remotely associated with them.
For the goblin prisoner escort mission referenced above, I wouldn't see that as even remotely against Torag's code. First of all, they were captured for the sake of extracting information, which is explicitly allowed in Torag's paladin code. Second, they're not in the immediate threat category. They worked for enemies of the Pathfinder Society, but we don't know exactly what their role was. They may never have raised a weapon against any Pathfinder.
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Hail and well met, my comrades. I am Gennadi, chosen warrior of Torag, and I could not help but overhear questions about the Forefather's code.
Some of our friends here, they ask if we are blood-thirsty? They wouldn't ask such questions if they carried the Code in their hearts. We are men of honor and action, protectors of our kith and kin. Do we basely slay the non-combatant? Of course not. But you should instruct them on the fundamentals of "take no quarter".
Let the paladin of lovely Shelyn embrace her foes once she has beaten them. Let her teach them beauty, and pray they learn from her and not the other way 'round.
Let the paladin of Iomedae demand surrender from her foes, and then support them as her wardsmen. The shield maiden's champions demand the respect due a warrior, but sometimes forget how to give it in return.
But explain, my stout brother-in-arms, how it is the will of the Forge-father that we carry the hammer to our foes, and how, once battle is joined, it is sacred. We would no sooner accept surrender from a foe than we would accept spoiled food or shoddy armor. If a foe throws down his weapon, we demand he take it up again. Should he refuse, we finish the fight.
But tell those Pathfinders over there that Torag demands that we work his will with honor. I've cured a foe's diseases, and once kept one safe from poisons, even as my blows laid him low. May Pharasma never say that a woman I fought had died of affliction, or slow bleeding, or old age. If a drunkard threatens my folk, let him speak his words again when his head is clear. And if his heart is unchanged, let him take up his sword and die.
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The only Neutral god with Paladins in Golarion is Abadar.
It's in Player Compagnon Faiths of Balance
There's a prestige class for Monks/Paladins of Irori, so this isn't actually true. It is true that Abadar's the only LN deity with an expanded Paladin Code in Faiths of Balance (since Irorans are to find their own path to perfection, and that path is never the same for each person.)
Sidenote: The Paladin Codes in Faiths of Purity/Balance are not PFS-legal, so a paladin of Torag isn't going to fall for escorting goblins anywhere. Needless to say, he can feel awkward about it and express his concern the whole trip, but he's not losing class abilities for not smiting them.
You may want to peruse this thread which explains that all LG, LN, and NG deities can have paladins
As for the sidenote: that's a tricky argument. If you're playing a Paladin, you have to hold true to something. Saying "my Paladin of Shelyn would ordinarily refuse to destroy artwork but fortunately this is PFS so I'll deface this mural like my faction leader wanted me to and not suffer any consequences" is exploiting a perceived loophole. I probably would have that Paladin fall (after explaining to the player the consequences of her actions and letting her change her mind).
As many threads will attest, playing a Paladin is HARD! If you are truly playing a Paladin and not just "this guy with armor who smites things;" sometimes you have to walk away from a table or play another character.
After reading through the comments, I have to agree, sometimes the PALADIN would walk away from the party, but I would have to keep him there, at least for the duration of the game. Paladin's are allowed to associate with neutral or evil characters AS LONG AS he is fighting a greater evil.
I guess sometimes to fight that evil wizard, you need a rogue to stab him in the back.
Contributor
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One way of looking at it that helped me the first time I wanted to play a Paladin of a non-LG deity was to remember that, for a Paladin, Lawful Good means upholding his/her deity's ideals in the most Lawful and Good way possible.
In a home game, for instance, it would be possible to be a Paladin of Cayden Cailean (who is CG if I'm not mistaken?), but the Paladin would have to emulate that god's ideals rigidly while still ensuring that goodness and law are followed.
For a Paladin of Cayden, that would mean drinking but not letting himself get *too* intoxicated, making sure that no one drinks too much to get alcohol poisoning, makes sure that parties are fun but not rowdy enough to disturb the neighborhood, escort drunks home, keep thieves from taking advantage of drunken revelers, etc.
That's just one example...it occurs to me that Cayden might be NG, but I don't feel like deleting that last paragraph - and the general concept still holds. If you think about it enough when you're making a Paladin of a non-LG deity, you can make it work :)
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One way of looking at it that helped me the first time I wanted to play a Paladin of a non-LG deity was to remember that, for a Paladin, Lawful Good means upholding his/her deity's ideals in the most Lawful and Good way possible.
In a home game, for instance, it would be possible to be a Paladin of Cayden Cailean (who is CG if I'm not mistaken?), but the Paladin would have to emulate that god's ideals rigidly while still ensuring that goodness and law are followed.
For a Paladin of Cayden, that would mean drinking but not letting himself get *too* intoxicated, making sure that no one drinks too much to get alcohol poisoning, makes sure that parties are fun but not rowdy enough to disturb the neighborhood, escort drunks home, keep thieves from taking advantage of drunken revelers, etc.
That's just one example...it occurs to me that Cayden might be NG, but I don't feel like deleting that last paragraph - and the general concept still holds. If you think about it enough when you're making a Paladin of a non-LG deity, you can make it work :)
Cayden. He's CG. I remember playing a bard under him. Bloody useful too, until he walked right into a trap. Our rogue failed a spot check and, well...
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see this wer adnd was awsomme u could be apaladen and be a complete as long as u fallowed ethos ok to me if u are hb game then tell ur dm want to make ur own cod that u falllow and that is ok with the god u worshop because technecley paladens do't need gpods only in 4ed do they need gods and gain in pfs if u find a a giod u like as a paladen follower then as long as they are allowed whithin the rules fallow them because it says u cant poisen and sometimes in heat ofu can see everythin and if the ninja uses a poisen dart o well it wasnt u aot of my religion nornd asi don't know the ninja is careering posen he's not affending my code and even then hes nor freinds he his an expandabel assest that could get replace
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Eric, the Additional Recourses document has allowed the Hellknight prestige class ever since the first version was published back in AP 27, back in Season 1. The current version of the prestige class has been allowed ever since the Inner Sea World Guide was published the subsequent year.
Sir-Hitman-Heart, the Pathfinder role-playing game rules do not require a paladin to choose a church, but this organized play campaign is set in Golarion, and a paladin in Golarion does need to worship a particular god.