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as far as point buy goes, what do you reccomend? I want to nip minmaxing, but I want to make the PCs a little bit tougher than your average bandit, but I want combat to still be tough. like, more brains less power gaming, trying to keep it away from the anime/video game realm and more into the way fantasy roleplaying used to be. So, what points do you reccomend?
Depends. For Council of Thieves, I gave my players a 20-point buy. In the Rise of the Runelords AP I played in, we had a 18-point buy. For Reign of Winter, I'm only doing a 15-point buy for various reasons. My players for that game have ended up making rather well built and well rounded characters.
By level 4-5, the differences between 15- or a 20-point buy pretty much disappear. All that said, I'll probably not do a 20-point buy game again--18 seems to be a nice compromise.
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10 are weak characters with stats no better and sometimes worse than even simple NPCs
These characters will still be strong from levels and gear. This point buy would be like playing on hard mode.
15 is the same used by the iconics and I recommend the minimum for PCs.
20 is heroic as in expect the pcs to be the equal and often the better of every NPC stat wise. This is also the number used by Society Organized Play. I encourage this amount.
25 is uber power.
that's true, what do you reccomend for finding players? ones who are more about the atmosphere of the game and into the setting as opposed to people who are only there for vulgar displays of power
Talk to the players before you even touch a pencil and paper to make a character. Tell them what kind of game you want to run, get some input from them, a little give-and-take, but let them know that's what you want and the kind of game you'll be running. At that point, they can either leave, or have no excuse to complain when you tell them to dial it down.
Bloodhammer, I think the way you worded the question in your most recent post belies your own true feelings. One play style is about atmosphere and setting of the game, the other is merely a vulgar display of power.
Your lines, Sir, have been drawn. Your preferences are clear.
So stick with what YOU prefer. No reason for us to sway you.
Well, first off, putting it that way is likely to drive people off as a matter of principle.
Secondly, it depends on where you're playing. Online you've got a wide pool to pull from and can put an ad in the recruitment forums I believe looking for players interested in an "Atmospheric and roleplay heavy experience".
IRL meetups take a bit more work. I have no clue where you live, or how easily you can contact people that way.
It seems to me that when ever someone plays PFS they try to max out what ever character they are playing as much as possible (or that is what I have seen on this board). As far as making characters "tough"? We have started them out at higher level. Of coarse, this gives the power gamers more room to 'play'. It also gives you more room to look at said characters to see just what they are trying to pull and hand it back with a shake of the head.
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true true. if not treating my game with the respect I ask is too much for a player then he/she doesn't need to play in my game. I'm going to be putting hours and hours into this and I want to give a genuine experience. Not a hack and slash game where the players actions don't have conciquences. if you want that you can stay home and play skyrim on easy. so, 20 points is the general verdict?
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Simple. 20 pt buy, but assigning a stat under 10 doesn't get you back any points. Viola!
Decent well rounded buys. No drooling idiots with a int of 7 or ugly stammering social misfits with a CHA of 7 just because the character doesn't "need" that stat.
Mind you, if they want a 8, they can still have one. They just don;t get any points for it.
I'd suggest at least 25 point buy.
A spellcaster can easily afford a high casting stat no matter what you pick; higher point buy means classes like monk can afford to have decent scores in multiple abilities and levels the playing field a bit.
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The problem with class-based is that you're free to multiclass however you want in PF. If all that mattered was class at level 1, people could game the system; if you tried to adjust it for each level up and where it was in, it would be a giant ugly mess of a houserule.
EDIT: I guess the most powerful caster classes (Wiz, Sorc, Cleric, Druid, Witch, Oracle, and Summoner) would be loathe to dip out and lose a caster level even if there was a big point buy difference at stake, so maybe it could work if you had a 2-tiered set up. A lower point buy for the really strong caster classes and a higher one for everyone else.
Lad, Just as a heads-up, Your comments border on trolling.
-Skyrim easy mode-
-Vulgar display-
-More brains, less power gaming-
Are you trying to be deliberately inflammatory? Because you come off that way.
I'm use to playing with a 20 PBI, but I've come to like the 15 PBI after a few sessions of Rise of the Runelords. The one problem I find with it is that creative character concepts tend to suffer, as they lack the stats to do what the want to do well.
If you have a group that just like to talk about their max theoretical damage, go for the 15 PBI. If your party likes to craft characters for the sake of roleplaying, give them a 20 PBI for a bit more creativity.
Also, if you don't want your PC's getting crushed at first level, give them the option of starting with an extra NPC class level (excluding commoner or warrior). It gives a bit of flavor to the character, and helps pad out HP and skill points at lower levels. It also makes it a bit less punishing for giving them a 15 PBI. Don't make them have to gain extra EXP to level because of it though. They only need EXP to take levels in PC classes, so the NPC classes don't count towards what level they are (e.g. an expert 1 / fighter 2 isn't a level 3 when determining how much exp he has and needs to level up, he is a level 2)
I like the idea of limiting what they can and can't do with their point buy. My Kingmaker group was told they had 20PB, but couldn't have below 8 or above 18 after racial modifiers. It meant they were a little more well rounded.
Arrays are also a good idea, but people still like to be flexible and make their own choices.
I end up using 20 pt buy because I like them to have above average stats, and it *generally* stops the 7 Cha 18 Str type min maxers.
But I also have a week of recruiting on the PbP boards and have the people submit their characters. Generally, the minmax crowd gets put to the side unless I see some compelling writing in their character background.
It is always possible to rebuild encounters so that the monster/person has a 20 pt buy too. It is more work but it makes it more challenging.
Whatever, Bloodhammer. The kind of min-maxing that you seem to despise is a function of the player, not of the point buy. Giving that kind of person more points to spend isn't going to stop them.
I hope you have fun.
10 are weak characters with stats no better and sometimes worse than even simple NPCs
These characters will still be strong from levels and gear. This point buy would be like playing on hard mode.
15 is the same used by the iconics and I recommend the minimum for PCs.
20 is heroic as in expect the pcs to be the equal and often the better of every NPC stat wise. This is also the number used by Society Organized Play. I encourage this amount.
25 is uber power.
Correct all but for one item, the Iconics actually use a 20 point buy, stated directly in the Npc codex.
I don't know.
Not every low score is sign of Minmaxing.
My current Oracle/Barbarian has a wisdom of 7.
This was a key choice made to accent the "batsh*t crazy" aspect.
True , but would you have that 7 if you didn't get back points?
The hero with a low con is a meme: Elric, Doc Holiday, etc. but I have never seen a D20 PC with a low con.
Thus, my system allows for the player to make that choice and have a wiz of 7 as they are crazy, but other than cool RPing stuff, there's no other reward. The cool RPing stuff should be reward enuf.
I go with 25 point buy with a minimum of 8 for dump stats. (Although really with a 25 point buy I haven't seen anyone go down to an 8 yet.)
Edit: I should also make clear that the pre-racial max in my games is still 18.
I'm setting up for 15 as a PC start, 10 for NPCs, with one point per level to buy stats up. This helps MACs who are the ones most hurt in the games I'm watching. SACs are still progressing as normal.
Stat array is my personal favorite, it makes character creation a lot faster, and usually you get a lot less whining from players who want things like stat boosting items at early levels.
I like taking the Heroic NPC stats and bumping them a little, my current games I give my players:
18 16 15 13 12 10
2 good stats, 2 mediocre stats, 2 meh stats, and one dump, essentially I took the Heroic NPC stats and added 2 to all of them, and modified a little bit to give them an 18.
Actual stats from the Heroic NPCs are 15 14 13 12 10 8, you can work from that to see if your players need more/less power. Personally, I feel like both when I play, and when I DM, that spending too much time worrying about above average stats leads to a lot of wasted time that really doesn't break the game in the grand scheme of things.
Use a Heroic Predetermined Array
Kyrt uses 18, 16, 14, 14, 12, 10
another route is to use a 50 point buy with the stipulation that no starting attribute can fall below 12 or rise above 18 After Racial Modifiers.
and example of how the 50 point can be used
16 (10) 17 (13) 12 (2) 14 (5) 15 (7) 17 (13)
the character wouldn't be allowed to turn the 17s into 19s or use a penalty to turn a 12 into a 10 or below but they can do some of the following
use a 17 to cushion the penalty of a -2 and end up with a 15 or use the 14 for a 12, the 16 for a 14 or the 15 for a 13.
use a race to transform the 16 into an 18, the 15 into a 17 or the 14 into a 16. even turn the 12 into a 14.
As an Example of how the 50 point array above can be used
Human Fighter (+2 strength)
Str 18
Dex 17
Con 17
Int 15
Wis 14
Cha 12
the power of a character's attributes matters not about their secondary and tertiary attributes, or even their dump stats, but the power of their primary attributes. though such an array or point allotment makes a skilled fighter or combat oriented rogue a little more viable.
as far as point buy goes, what do you reccomend? I want to nip minmaxing, but I want to make the PCs a little bit tougher than your average bandit, but I want combat to still be tough. like, more brains less power gaming, trying to keep it away from the anime/video game realm and more into the way fantasy roleplaying used to be. So, what points do you reccomend?
We always do 20 point buys and have never had any problems - its a nice compromise between the slightly over-powered 25 point buys and the 15 point buys which often make feats difficult to qualify for. I also discourage attribute-dumping and 15 point buys seem to necessitate it.
Honestly to your point, you might better accomplish your goal by reducing the magic level of the campaign setting rather than limiting attributes. Its always better if characters accomplish things because of their abilities rather than because of their gear.
with the 50 point buy method i mentioned, i recommend not cutting wealth in half, but adopting the prestige/infamy rule of PFS to limit magic item access by item value.
another route is to use Kirthfinder's Mojo System, which limits the number of magic item related bonuses, not by the item slots and items you possess, but the amount of mojo.
for example, +2 enhancement bonus to strength, dexterity and constitution would cost 4,000 mojo each (12,000 mojo), which would interfere with the ability to get a +1 enhancement to attack and damage with weapons (2,000 mojo) and +1 resistance bonus to saving throws (1,000 mojo), which would eat up 15,000 of the 16,000 mojo of a 7th level character. but though mojo can never be stripped, it has the advantage of never being able to exceed it's cap.
as far as point buy goes, what do you reccomend? I want to nip minmaxing, but I want to make the PCs a little bit tougher than your average bandit, but I want combat to still be tough. like, more brains less power gaming, trying to keep it away from the anime/video game realm and more into the way fantasy roleplaying used to be. So, what points do you reccomend?
Min/maxing are not related to point buy. If someone is prone to do that, they will do it no matter the rule set you use. You can't 'rule it away.' The only thing you can do is have discussion with your players.
As part of that discussion, please clearly say what you do or do not want to see. Do NOT just say I don't want to see any min/maxing. There are a bunch of ambiguous terms like that used in this hobby and I have never seen two people define them the same.
So if you are in a discussion with them I would suggest you not even bother using the term. Just say what you really mean clearly. I will repeat that. Say it clearly. Switching to a different ambiguous insulting term does not count as clearly.
As far as point buy is concerned. I prefer 15 since that is what most of the AP, modules, bestiaries, etc... assume will be used. Then I don't have to spend a bunch of time modifying stuff.
I've recently changed my stance on point buy. I've come to the realization (after playing in 2 15 point buy games) that 15 points is just about right in terms of pure power the game expects. CR appropriate monsters are for the most part appropriate when your primary stat is right around a +3 to start. If its a +5, things skew in your favor, particularly at low levels, and ofcourse it can go up from there. 15 point buy makes it rather painful to have over a +3 in a stat. But it also encourages stat dumping, which i hate, and it favors single ability score depandent characters.
So for my upcoming game I am doing 25 point buy, however no stat can be bellow 10 before racial modifiers, and no stat can be higher then 17 after racial modifiers. Basically I want to give more points for MAD characters, or for to have non-mechanically focused positive abilities (like charisma for a wizard for example), without skewing the amount of 'power' the characters have (in terms of to hit bonus or save dcs) as compared to 15 point buy.
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I'm setting up for 15 as a PC start, 10 for NPCs, with one point per level to buy stats up. This helps MACs who are the ones most hurt in the games I'm watching. SACs are still progressing as normal.One per level? Ugh. Be prepared for a wizard with an Int in the mid-high 30s or even 40s.I think they meant 1 point as in point buy.
So, by level 10 they'll be at effectively 25 point buy, which isn't a bad option. The full casters tend not to be too bad until mid (5 or so) levels, while a 15 point buy paladin is perfectly capable of competing with low CR encounters. If they're using a two handed weapon they could even end up one shotting certain enemies. They can spend their initial points in strength and then buy up charisma as they level.
Ah. That makes more sense.
Ah. That makes more sense.
Oops, Elosandi wrote it better, but yes. It allows character builds that need multiple Stats to be more viable. Multiple GMs I am in contact with either use this or plan to.
15 point buy makes it rather painful to have over a +3 in a stat. But it also encourages stat dumping, which i hate, and it favors single ability score depandent characters.
So for my upcoming game I am doing 25 point buy, however no stat can be bellow 10 before racial modifiers, and no stat can be higher then 17 after racial modifiers. Basically I want to give more points for MAD characters, or for to have non-mechanically focused positive abilities (like charisma for a wizard for example), without skewing the amount of 'power' the characters have (in terms of to hit bonus or save dcs) as compared to 15 point buy.
Right. The problems with a 15 pt buy are as you said- it encourages or requires stat dumping (leading to hardly heroic builds) and is hard to do with a MAD build, which makes Monks, etc esp hard to play.