Nope, you don't need those things. You walk and talk and hit stuff still. Sure makes it easier to do those things though. Good at what they do is subjective, but hey if its full attacking them with a whatever and your full BAB your probably safe. I do like my haste.So you never need heals, raises, condition removal, teleport or any sort of spell help ever?
The thing about buffs is they are not needed.There is no martial class that actually "needs" buffs to remain good at what they do. Buffs just make your job easier.
This is the worse way to spin what you just said but: So teamwork is unnecessary and casters are superfluous to the party. Well I don't see why everybody doesn't just play barbars
Maybe that one guy was right and all the characters on this board are for PFS where teamwork is hard to come by...
DISCLAIMER: Yes that was the worse way I could spin it.
Why does that section of UM specifically say, "Optional?"
If it is intended to just be the rules that are available to everyone all the time without specific GM permission, then why do they feel the need to put that O-word there?
According to you, "optional" doesn't actually mean anything. According to everyone else, it means exactly what it says: "Not standard."
Or better yet, let's go crazy and (only for the sake of argument) assume that WoP is a ruleset that is a standard part of the game that any player can take without specific GM fiat.
Nothing about that spell says, "May only be cast on the Fighter class."
The complaint about Fighters is that while they're effective, they're not as effective as other "heavy melee" options (ie: Barb/Pally/Ranger).
So, assuming that WoP spell is available, it can be cast on any class. So now the Fighter, Barb, Paladin, and Ranger all have Pounce. We're back to square one: Why play Fighter over the others?
|
Oh, man. I almost can't remember what this thread is about, anymore, after all those posts...oh...yeah. Fighters really don't suck. By themselves.
Fighters don't do the burst stuff, but they're always ready...and they can do just fine...some will even be the heavy hitters at the end of the campaign, outdoing casters. That's rare, but I've seen it happen...not friggin' theorycrafted...you know...in one of those silly, meaningless situations where it can't be 'tested'...an actual...game.
Or better yet, let's go crazy and (only for the sake of argument) assume that WoP is a ruleset that is a standard part of the game that any player can take without specific GM fiat.
Nothing about that spell says, "May only be cast on the Fighter class."The complaint about Fighters is that while they're effective, they're not as effective as other "heavy melee" options (ie: Barb/Pally/Ranger).
So, assuming that WoP spell is available, it can be cast on any class. So now the Fighter, Barb, Paladin, and Ranger all have Pounce. We're back to square one: Why play Fighter over the others?
Oh thank god you and OP are ready to go.
So now everyone can move and full attack. Our fighter is once again the king of DPR if he take weapon focus feats or he is pretty close if he doesn't.
It is rare things for the Rangers FA to overcome fighter weapon training.
The paladin smite is WAY better, but is very limited in use. The paladin also has spells and all sorts of other things going for him. In the hands of a good player he will outshine the fighter. Key word is good player. Anti-paladins lose most of those advantages by having negative energy lay on hands and smite good. Not everyone wants to be a LG melee brute. This roleplaying restriction is not an great way to balance the classes but it is effective at preventing many gamers from playing paladin.
The one flaw with the paladin class is that he burns through resources very fast and can't play conservatively. So if your campaign has a lot of dungeon crawling or more than 3 encounters a day that fighter could be mechanically 'better'. But yeah the pally is more awesome as the encounters per day go to one.
If everyone has a pounce-like option the barbar is either ignoring that to get pounce later or giving up his massive save advantage to enjoy this buff. Assuming he likes buffs the barbar now has 4 or more rage powers to work will. It's hard comparing this barbar to fighters since 90% of the rage powers I see mentioned scale off the beast totem or superstitious tree.
The barbar makes the better solo option, and rage is better than weapon training alone unless the fighter takes the weapon focus tree.
So if DPR isn't the real issue here the fighter still needs to do something with feat better than what can be done with rage powers, spells, and skills.
Now I've seen Lemmy post whole threads of interesting fighter builds, but aside from that where do feats excel.
Well most feats are not a limited resource. Stand Still is decent battlefield control if you can hit and the casters are funneling mobs away from then into you. Now apparently some people how taunt? Which would be way better, but I question how many times per day or rage that they can use it. Stand still works during the surprise round (combat reflexes allows you to AOO while flat footed).
Then their are fighter only feats like disruptive and spell-breaker. At higher levels fighters can tree up the crit focused builds and cause blindness and deafness with every crit (successful saves reduce the effect). Or you can grab the fort-save or stun or exhausted or combine them both. The save is not bad either being +1/BAB not ability score mod but it does cap at 30 by level 20. Better than stunning fist (20+wis).
The real question is whether or not there are enough feats that you couldn't get everything you wanted from another class. It really depends, but the fighter will always get all the feats you wanted before anyone else could.
But if the fighter still fails to stack up against other classes then this becomes more of a problem with feats and less so of the fighter.
Out of combat the Fighter has his high strength score and unlimited resources. Being the heavy in out-of-combat situations can be very rewarding. Now the Fighter won't have anything over anyone else in this arena unless he makes feat investment. My personal favorite way is to grab Focused Study on a Human (once again not a fighter class feature). But fighters are more likely to trade the human bonus feat than others since their feat progression is already so much more faster than everyone else's.
So to answer your question of why play the fighter. I say feats and training in his weapons and armor.
We can say that rage powers are just better than feats, but most of the time I heard that they were talking about pounce or the pounce tree or the superstitious tree. Both of which are way less powerful when one second level buff spell becomes available.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oh, man. I almost can't remember what this thread is about, anymore, after all those posts...oh...yeah. Fighters really don't suck. By themselves.
Fighters don't do the burst stuff, but they're always ready...and they can do just fine...some will even be the heavy hitters at the end of the campaign, outdoing casters. That's rare, but I've seen it happen...not friggin' theorycrafted...you know...in one of those silly, meaningless situations where it can't be 'tested'...an actual...game.
Dude, last time you brought one of your "actual game experiences", you wound up revealing your fighter was "awesome", because he killed 12, or maybe it was 8, or 10, or 6, commoner kobolds, who you got by surprise and just stood there trying to fight you in melee, or maybe run, past a trap, except there were no traps, except maybe, you don't really remember, and they were probably unarmed and had int0. But you don't really remember, it might have happened in one of the half dozen ways you told, or been a fever dream. You managed to amass such credibility there. Now tell us about how the fish that escaped was thiiiiiis big.
And even if any of it is true, it only shows your benchmark for awesome is set pretty low. Killing a dozen kobolds in melee is a chore not a combat, even at first level. Unless you're a caster with 1/2BAB.And I bet you were outdamaging the casters alright, thats easy when the casters probably are doing battlefield control or buffing or any of the dozen other things they can do that totally ignore HP. A fighter that can outdamage a caster is in the same ballpark as being able to outdamage a non smiting paladin. That is the one thing he is supposed to do, you can do it by accident if the group is not good at optimizing r you're the only martial in the group. Do you also feel awesome for making a bard that can sing or a cleric that prays to a god?
|
|
Oh, man. I almost can't remember what this thread is about, anymore, after all those posts...oh...yeah. Fighters really don't suck. By themselves.
Fighters don't do the burst stuff, but they're always ready...and they can do just fine...some will even be the heavy hitters at the end of the campaign, outdoing casters. That's rare, but I've seen it happen...not friggin' theorycrafted...you know...in one of those silly, meaningless situations where it can't be 'tested'...an actual...game.
Dude, last time you brought one of your "actual game experiences", you wound up revealing your fighter was "awesome", because he killed 12, or maybe it was 8, or 10, or 6, commoner kobolds, who you got by surprise and just stood there trying to fight you in melee, or maybe run, past a trap, except there were no traps, except maybe, you don't really remember, and they were probably unarmed and had int0. But you don't really remember, it might have happened in one of the half dozen ways you told, or been a fever dream. You managed to amass such credibility there. Now tell us about how the fish that escaped was thiiiiiis big.
And even if any of it is true, it only shows your benchmark for awesome is set pretty low. Killing a dozen kobolds in melee is a chore not a combat, even at first level. Unless you're a caster with 1/2BAB.
And I bet you were outdamaging the casters alright, thats easy when the casters probably are doing battlefield control or buffing or any of the dozen other things they can do that totally ignore HP. A fighter that can outdamage a caster is in the same ballpark as being able to outdamage a non smiting paladin. That is the one thing he is supposed to do, you can do it by accident if the group is not good at optimizing r you're the only martial in the group. Do you also feel awesome for making a bard that can sing or a cleric that prays to a god?
Congratulations, you come off like an idiot.
I gave you the basic situation that occurred something like 8 years ago. My fighter killed about 8 or 9 of about a dozen. I have never posted otherwise. They were not 'commoner kobolds', that's a conclusion someone else decided to jump to. As I stated, they were straight out of the book. As often happens, they were taken from their homes and forced to work for a more powerful monstrosity. It was a Dungeon magazine scenario, so if you have issues with that, have at.
There was a trap, a pit trap, and yes, I did run past it...I followed the kobolds that survived. That may be difficult for you, but for me, it's basic logic. Yes, they were armed...with javelins...something I've stated since the beginning as well. If every 1 HD creature in the games you play is some sort of tactical perfectionist, you've made me happy I don't play at your table.
Now, seeing as you, and others, fail to understand this simple fact...those same kobolds could have KILLED the first level casters...and we had both a sorcerer and a wizard...in about 1 round, with initiative, which they had. As it was, I did get hit...took maybe half my hp...a number which would have killed either of them...and their AC wasn't as good as mine, either.
Now, take your foot out of your mouth, and proceed.
@EldonG
Just flag the post and move on. Instead of contributing to the conversation he used ad-hominem and attack your credibility.
Which even if he was right that doesn't make you wrong. It's a huge cluster-F of a a post that serves little more than a personal attack on you.
It is rare things for the Rangers FA to overcome fighter weapon training.
How so? What about the animal companion or spells? He also has 2 good saves, four more skill points per level, and evasion to help him survive.
The one flaw with the paladin class is that he burns through resources very fast and can't play conservatively. So if your campaign has a lot of dungeon crawling or more than 3 encounters a day that fighter could be mechanically 'better'. But yeah the pally is more awesome as the encounters per day go to one.
You get more as you level. Oath of vengeance is possibly an excuse to do it all day. Theres also all the other goodies paladins have like bonuses to saving throws, spell casting, lay on hands, channel, a mount or weapon, and immunity to fear that buffs everyone else in the party. His first aura compared to bravery is almost unfair.
We can say that rage powers are just better than feats, but most of the time I heard that they were talking about pounce or the pounce tree or the superstitious tree. Both of which are way less powerful when one second level buff spell becomes available
Again with the thinking that if we have a specific buff from an optional rule all the other rage powers cease to matter. Superstitious is a massive bonus that the fighter doesn't get, as is spell sunder, magic eater, ghost rager, or witch hunter. The fighter cannot replicate any of these powers. A second level buff does not make any of those moot. How about fiendish or celestial totem if you want to look at another set of totems?
|
|
@EldonG
Just flag the post and move on. Instead of contributing to the conversation he used ad-hominem and attack your credibility.
Which even if he was right that doesn't make you wrong. It's a huge cluster-F of a a post that serves little more than a personal attack on you.
Yeah...I'm used to posting over at a political forum, where that would be so minimal...and I never go to the mods there (we don't have a 'flag', per se.) at any rate.
It stuns me when people understand that their argument is so weak that they think their only recourse is personal attacks...that aren't even meaningful, so they have to twist words...and even lie, to give them some gravitas.
Or better yet, let's go crazy and (only for the sake of argument) assume that WoP is a ruleset that is a standard part of the game that any player can take without specific GM fiat.
Nothing about that spell says, "May only be cast on the Fighter class."The complaint about Fighters is that while they're effective, they're not as effective as other "heavy melee" options (ie: Barb/Pally/Ranger).
So, assuming that WoP spell is available, it can be cast on any class. So now the Fighter, Barb, Paladin, and Ranger all have Pounce. We're back to square one: Why play Fighter over the others?
Oh thank god you and OP are ready to go.
So now everyone can move and full attack. Our fighter is once again the king of DPR if he take weapon focus feats or he is pretty close if he doesn't.
It is rare things for the Rangers FA to overcome fighter weapon training.
The paladin smite is WAY better, but is very limited in use. The paladin also has spells and all sorts of other things going for him. In the hands of a good player he will outshine the fighter. Key word is good player. Anti-paladins lose most of those advantages by having negative energy lay on hands and smite good. Not everyone wants to be a LG melee brute. This roleplaying restriction is not an great way to balance the classes but it is effective at preventing many gamers from playing paladin.
The one flaw with the paladin class is that he burns through resources very fast and can't play conservatively. So if your campaign has a lot of dungeon crawling or more than 3 encounters a day that fighter could be mechanically 'better'. But yeah the pally is more awesome as the encounters per day go to one.
If everyone has a pounce-like option the barbar is either ignoring that to get pounce later or giving up his massive save advantage to enjoy this buff. Assuming he likes buffs the barbar now has 4 or more rage powers to work will. It's hard comparing this barbar to fighters since 90% of the rage powers I see...
You want to challenge the barbarian rage powers? Come at me bro.
Or better yet, Come and Get Me, bro. I get to make my full attack and then hit you back for every one of your attacks, at full BAB. What feat allows you to do that?Not satisfied? Intimidating Glare and Boasting Taunt allow me to Demoralize with a move action and keep you shaken until you hit me with a melee attack. Antagonize without all the brokeness and being banned.
Strenght Surge. At level 5 and beyond it's better than all the maneuver feats combined. I still take the AoO but I'm king of maneuvers.
Knockback. Quick, Improved Bullrush that also deals damage and you can launch the opponent instead of moving with him. Equivalent to three maybe four feats.
How about another totem? Spirit Totem. 20%miss chance, adjacent enemies take 1d8 damage at the start of my turn and I can make a ranged slam for 1d6 damage up to 15 feet once a round. Thats all without using an action, so I can full attack on top of that.
|
|
...Or better yet, let's go crazy and (only for the sake of argument) assume that WoP is a ruleset that is a standard part of the game that any player can take without specific GM fiat.
Nothing about that spell says, "May only be cast on the Fighter class."The complaint about Fighters is that while they're effective, they're not as effective as other "heavy melee" options (ie: Barb/Pally/Ranger).
So, assuming that WoP spell is available, it can be cast on any class. So now the Fighter, Barb, Paladin, and Ranger all have Pounce. We're back to square one: Why play Fighter over the others?
Oh thank god you and OP are ready to go.
So now everyone can move and full attack. Our fighter is once again the king of DPR if he take weapon focus feats or he is pretty close if he doesn't.
It is rare things for the Rangers FA to overcome fighter weapon training.
The paladin smite is WAY better, but is very limited in use. The paladin also has spells and all sorts of other things going for him. In the hands of a good player he will outshine the fighter. Key word is good player. Anti-paladins lose most of those advantages by having negative energy lay on hands and smite good. Not everyone wants to be a LG melee brute. This roleplaying restriction is not an great way to balance the classes but it is effective at preventing many gamers from playing paladin.
The one flaw with the paladin class is that he burns through resources very fast and can't play conservatively. So if your campaign has a lot of dungeon crawling or more than 3 encounters a day that fighter could be mechanically 'better'. But yeah the pally is more awesome as the encounters per day go to one.
If everyone has a pounce-like option the barbar is either ignoring that to get pounce later or giving up his massive save advantage to enjoy this buff. Assuming he likes buffs the barbar now has 4 or more rage powers to work will. It's hard comparing this barbar to fighters since 90% of
I'm just going to wait until the rage is gone and pick you apart at my leisure.
How's that?
Again with the thinking that if we have a specific buff from an optional rule...
We're done here. If you won't except the premise, I'll spend my time talking with people who do.
You have some points that I would love argue, but are pointless when you can't get past point one.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Fighters are actually pretty good at levels 1~5. Then they start lagging behind.
I'm not surprised or amazed a 1st level Fighter or whatever killed a dozen kobolds or whatever happened.
I don't think EldonG is lying or exaggerating (although, the description of events is a bit confusins). His argument at least makes sense (unlike Marthkus and his idiotic "Pounce is useless because this very rarely used set of rules who are in no way a Fighter class feature can give it to everyone. Even if it won't happen 99,9% of the time".
Fighters are not masters of fighting. They're masters of standing still and killing stuff. If the game was about standing still and punching a sandbag 'til it was destroyed, Fighter would be awesome.
Unfortunately, adventuring includes a lot more than that, and Fighter are pretty bad at all the rest.
Again with the thinking that if we have a specific buff from an optional rule...We're done here. If you won't except the premise, I'll spend my time talking with people who do.
You have some points that I would love argue, but are pointless when you can't get past point one.
When I accepted it you got onto me for not accepting it. Its hard to accept things when this happens. Why don't you argue the other points anyway that way you can continue the discussion.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
We're done here. If you won't except the premise, I'll spend my time talking with people who do.
You want him to ignore your premise, leaving it out of his thinking? Or do you want him to accept your premise?
You want to challenge the barbarian rage powers? Come at me bro.
Or better yet, Come and Get Me, bro. I get to make my full attack and then hit you back for every one of your attacks, at full BAB. What feat allows you to do that?
Not satisfied? Intimidating Glare and Boasting Taunt allow me to Demoralize with a move action and keep you shaken until you hit me with a melee attack. Antagonize without all the brokeness and being banned.
Strenght Surge. At level 5 and beyond it's better than all the maneuver feats combined. I still take the AoO but I'm king of maneuvers.
Knockback. Quick, Improved Bullrush that also deals damage and you can launch the opponent instead of moving with him. Equivalent to three maybe four feats.
How about another totem? Spirit Totem. 20%miss chance, adjacent enemies take 1d8 damage at the start of my turn and I can make a ranged slam for 1d6 damage up to 15 feet once a round. Thats all without using an action, so I can full attack on top of that.
If you have Come and Get Me it is a long time before you grab the others. What is that a 4 rage power dump to grab AC and pounce (which everyone gets anyways). Meh for that much investment the Fighter grabs weapon focus and beats you out at DPR and is more of threat than the caster anyways. The caster is a big threat but the fighter is taking down equal CR creatures in 2 rounds.
PvP is not a good comparison.
Demoralizing as a move action is weak. Fighters can get that as free action whenever they knock down opponents or as a standard action they can demoralize everyone and not just one target.
AOOs end most combat maneuvers so your barbar still needs the feats to do them.
How do you get spirit totem and beast totem trees with all that other stuff. What level does all this take? 10? 15? 20?
I can accept 3-4 rages powers being better than a feat.
We're done here. If you won't except the premise, I'll spend my time talking with people who do.You want him to ignore your premise, leaving it out of his thinking? Or do you want him to accept your premise?
your just effecting there discussion
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@EldonG
Just flag the post and move on. Instead of contributing to the conversation he used ad-hominem and attack your credibility.
Which even if he was right that doesn't make you wrong. It's a huge cluster-F of a a post that serves little more than a personal attack on you.
Yeah...I'm used to posting over at a political forum, where that would be so minimal...and I never go to the mods there (we don't have a 'flag', per se.) at any rate.
It stuns me when people understand that their argument is so weak that they think their only recourse is personal attacks...that aren't even meaningful, so they have to twist words...and even lie, to give them some gravitas.
The point is, in-game experiences are meaningless in the context of a forum. They can be misremembered, misinterpreted, too different from the normal game because of houserules and optional rues noone else uses and worst of all, they cannont be proven. One could say fighters suck because they've seen a commoner do more damage in a round with a spoon than a fighter did with his +5 sword, and it would have as much weight or proofability as any in-game experience yanyone else has to offer.
Also just because you pissed me off and I wound up venting my bile it doesn't mean I don't have an argument. Only that your inability to listen to others arguments has passed my tolerance.
We're done here. If you won't except the premise, I'll spend my time talking with people who do.You want him to ignore your premise, leaving it out of his thinking? Or do you want him to accept your premise?
What? No he refuses to accept WoP as a legit thing. Which is the whole basis of my argument. There is no point talking with him when other people are further along in the dialog.
What? No he refuses to accept WoP as a legit thing. Which is the whole basis of my argument.
Then you should have used that word -- and not what, in context, is a near-antonym.
Fighters are actually pretty good at levels 1~5. Then they start lagging behind.
I'm not surprised or amazed a 1st level Fighter or whatever killed a dozen kobolds or whatever happened.
I don't think EldonG is lying or exaggerating (although, the description of events is a bit confusins). His argument at least makes sense (unlike Marthkus and his idiotic "Pounce is useless because this very rarely used set of rules who are in no way a Fighter class feature can give it to everyone. Even if it won't happen 99,9% of the time".
Fighters are not masters of fighting. They're masters of standing still and killing stuff. If the game was about standing still and punching a sandbag 'til it was destroyed, Fighter would be awesome.
Unfortunately, adventuring includes a lot more than that, and Fighter are pretty bad at all the rest.
Everyone can more and full attack. I won't waste more time arguing that point. If you don't like rules that help balance the game that is your problem.
What? No he refuses to accept WoP as a legit thing. Which is the whole basis of my argument.Then you should have used that word, and not an antonym.
Oh I get it now. My grammar was bad. Woosh that went over my head.
What? No he refuses to accept WoP as a legit thing. Which is the whole basis of my argument. There is no point talking with him when other people are further along in the dialog.We're done here. If you won't except the premise, I'll spend my time talking with people who do.You want him to ignore your premise, leaving it out of his thinking? Or do you want him to accept your premise?
Would you like me if I just said "He's using words of power. Lets all not talk to him. He won't accept the premise that this is an optional rule that not everyone uses!"? I could also start claiming that you just don't want to answer me. Its a legit argument if everyone used words of power. Or if even half the people used it or it was something common, but its not.
Everyone can more and full attack. I won't waste more time arguing that point. If you don't like rules that help balance the game that is your problem.
Not in every game. Not in most really. Not in any if you don't have someone to buff you... unless of course you have the pounce feature. Which is usually NPC only.
When I accepted it you got onto me for not accepting it. Its hard to accept things when this happens. Why don't you argue the other points anyway that way you can continue the discussion.Again with the thinking that if we have a specific buff from an optional rule...We're done here. If you won't except the premise, I'll spend my time talking with people who do.
You have some points that I would love argue, but are pointless when you can't get past point one.
If your going to keep taking cracks at the premise then there is no point to continue the conversation. Other people are. You're not. I've already been over why WoP is legit a dozen or so times in this thread. If that hasn't convinced you then there is no point in following my train of thought.
What? No he refuses to accept WoP as a legit thing. Which is the whole basis of my argument. There is no point talking with him when other people are further along in the dialog.We're done here. If you won't except the premise, I'll spend my time talking with people who do.You want him to ignore your premise, leaving it out of his thinking? Or do you want him to accept your premise?Would you like me if I just said "He's using words of power. Lets all not talk to him. He won't accept the premise that this is an optional rule that not everyone uses!"? I could also start claiming that you just don't want to answer me. Its a legit argument if everyone used words of power. Or if even half the people used it or it was something common, but its not.
Everyone can more and full attack. I won't waste more time arguing that point. If you don't like rules that help balance the game that is your problem.Not in every game. Not in most really. Not in any if you don't have someone to buff you... unless of course you have the pounce feature. Which is usually NPC only.
And this is why a conversation with you is pointless now.
YOU'RE
YOUR
THERE
THEIR
GET HIM STUFFY GRAMMARIAN
MAKE HIM RUE THE DAY
