OMG its like how different casters work differently. I should ban sorcerers too all this spont magic is too different.
But it isn't.
Are you being serious right now? Or are you trolling me?
I'm having a genuinely hard time figuring out whether you're really dense enough that you think Spontaneous casting (i.e. "Less spells known, more spells per day") is the same as Words of Power (i.e. "Spells are constructed and prepared ENTIRELY DIFFERENTLY) or if you're just f#@&ing with me.
I'm amazed how different rules are to complicated and game changes for you to use but summoners are legit. K
here is my suggestion. we build a group for teams of 5 characters each going through a series of problems to solve or whatever.
here would be my rules
Everybody posts a build each for one of 5 different categories
Judges Assign Each PC a lotto Number
Judges Roll once Per category
Each category determines which PCs you got stuck with
Same PC can belong to multiple parties, but only once per party
Solve Problems with Random group
Complain about how the rules work. Ignore new rules. Great formula! I hope it makes you happy.Man, you're using a OPTIONAL SET OF RULES! (Not in "you can ignore every rule" sense, but as in "the book itself says it's optional"!) that very few people ever use. A SPELL-CASTING system which NERFs casters because it has a lot less options than conventional spell casting.
And you're using this SPELL CASTING CASTER-NERFING OPTIONAL SYSTEM to argue that it amkes a class WITH NO SPELL-CASTING AT ALL is better than it actually is!
What are you going to say next?
"Fighter are versatile! They can rock social encounters, pounce, fly, become invisible, heal themselves and summon demons! All of that without even spending a feat or skill point! All they need is being friends with a Bard, a Wizard and a Cleric"
I'm sure you see the problem with this statement. You can't be that dense. Don't pretend you are.
We more arbitrary rules hate.
You don't understand words of power if that is how you think it works. No it doesn't do the same things as a normal caster, but they do do things that no normal caster can.
"Fighters aren't hands down worse than a barbar because instead of taking 3 rage powers he can get one 2nd lvl buff" Yep thats saying fighters are casters using their teamates.
here is my suggestion. we build a group for teams of 5 characters each going through a series of problems to solve or whatever.
Almost as crazy as making a thread with builds to try to examine how powerful every ones power is.
I still think the fighter does a fine job sucking on his own without the other martials showing him up.
"Fighters aren't hands down worse than a barbar because instead of taking 3 rage powers he can get one 2nd lvl buff" Yep thats saying fighters are casters using their teamates.
So, words of power. What does the fighter do without someone casting it on him?
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Bah... I'm convinced Marthkus is either delusional, trolling or simply too dense to see/admit why his argument makes no sense.
I'll no longer waste my time discussing WoP in a freaking FIGHTER thread.
One arbitrary opinion to rule them all
One silly argument to bind them
here is my suggestion. we build a group for teams of 5 characters each going through a series of problems to solve or whatever.
here would be my rules
Everybody posts a build each for one of 5 different categories
Judges Assign Each PC a lotto Number
Judges Roll once Per category
Each category determines which PCs you got stuck with
Same PC can belong to multiple parties, but only once per party
Solve Problems with Random group
You would have to compare every combination through either math or playtesting. Playtesting gives the best results.
I like what you suggest, if you can pull that off great! Regardless atleast your not dismissing rules out of hand. Yay!
Bone Keep
"Fighters aren't hands down worse than a barbar because instead of taking 3 rage powers he can get one 2nd lvl buff" Yep thats saying fighters are casters using their teamates.So, words of power. What does the fighter do without someone casting it on him?
The similair things as the barbar because he didn't take pounce. Why spend 3 rage powers for the effect of a second lvl spell? If your alone without your party you don't need pounce anyways. And your in an odd situation.
Bone Keep
I love your jokes but I'm not getting the reference here.
The similair things as the barbar because he didn't take pounce. Why spend 3 rage powers for the effect of a second lvl spell? If your alone without your party you don't need pounce anyways. And your in an odd situation."Fighters aren't hands down worse than a barbar because instead of taking 3 rage powers he can get one 2nd lvl buff" Yep thats saying fighters are casters using their teamates.So, words of power. What does the fighter do without someone casting it on him?
Except the barbarian has the choice in whether he gets beast totem line or not. Its like saying "What if the fighter didn't bring his main weapons?" Or "What if the wizard doesn't bring his spellbook?" Those things are self contained and in the class. You don't always have a caster, but you always have yourself.
Also, at 12th level I could have beast totem without the final part of the line, come and get me, and 6 DR/-. Are there feats that let me grow claws and gain a scaling natural armor?
One of the big things that hurts the fighter is that feats just aren't' as good as many class features. He gets almost as many bonus feats as the barbarian gets rage powers. Feats aren't nearly as powerful as rage powers though, and almost never, if ever, scale.
Marthkus is sort of in love with thread counts but yeah it is sort of derp to look at a class in a vacuum because some players play with bros and broettes who play as teams and synergize into like the pathfinder equivalent of voltron
Even if your argument did make sense, Marthkus, that's one specific situation in which a Fighter would have an advantage over a very specific type of Barbarian due to lack of an ability, not anything intrinsic to Fighter. Now how is this Fighter now comparable to a Ranger, Cavalier, Paladin, etc.? Everyone does better with a buff. Being "buffable" isn't a class feature.
Really, you're more arguing that spell resistance is bad and specific spells can mimic or outdo class abilities. That has nothing to do with the Fighter's relative power compared to other martials.
Even if the Fighter had a class ability "improve all buffs cast on you" it would still be a little silly and unsatisfying.
yeah it is sort of derp to look at a class in a vacuum because some players play with bros and broettes who play as teams and synergize into like the pathfinder equivalent of voltron
This actually made me laugh. I didn't think that was possible in this thread. Thank you, Lamontius.
I'm still sadf that you don't like the silly names in my build thread, though... ^^
yeah it is sort of derp to look at a class in a vacuum because some players play with bros and broettes who play as teams and synergize into like the pathfinder equivalent of voltronThis actually made me laugh. I didn't think that was possible in this thread. Thank you, Lamontius.
I'm still sadf that you don't like the silly names in my build thread, though... ^^
Lemmy I promise that if you keep coming up with awesome builds then I will give them names that will shake the heavens
Volron shmoltron. I prefer everyone being self contained and awesome by themselves first, and then they can work together to be more awesome. Like Power Rangers. Or something.
Shaking the heavens is for wimps.
Real men pierce the heavens.
Even if your argument did make sense, Marthkus, that's one specific situation in which a Fighter would have an advantage over a very specific type of Barbarian due to lack of an ability, not anything intrinsic to Fighter. Now how is this Fighter now comparable to a Ranger, Cavalier, Paladin, etc.? Everyone does better with a buff. Being "buffable" isn't a class feature.
Really, you're more arguing that spell resistance is bad and specific spells can mimic or outdo class abilities. That has nothing to do with the Fighter's relative power compared to other martials.
Even if the Fighter had a class ability "improve all buffs cast on you" it would still be a little silly and unsatisfying.
This all started with the +6 to all saves against magic pounce barbar and how he trumps the fighter. If the fighter could move and full attack too then pounce doesn't put the fighter to shame (or any other martial). Although the barbar could get this buff too, but to get it he has to give up the +6 to saves. Now the barbar and fighter are more or less equal. Assuming all this holds true (hence the debate)
The reason this is a bigger issue than the other comparisons is that if the other mundane melee guy (barbar) is hands down better than the fighter, what is the point of the fighter? What sort of flavor or mechanical role does he fill.
This example of super barbar is used time and time again to show the fighter as being subpar and justifying all the fighter hate.
Now with one buff all that unravels and now we have to find look at different reasons that fighters may be subpar.
The problem here is people feel this one buff spell is invalid and shouldn't be talked about, discussed or used.
Volron shmoltron. I prefer everyone being self contained and awesome by themselves first, and then they can work together to be more awesome. Like Power Rangers. Or something.
Did you just seriously say the power rangers were more awesome than voltron
Shaking the heavens is for wimps.
Real men pierce the heavens.
"Yours is the drill that will piece the heavens"
It really shouldn't be discussed because its from an optional ruleset and not everyone uses it. Its not always going to be there for the fighter. Its not a fighter buff. Its something that you can cast on anyone if you do have access to it, which the fighter doesn't, the wizard does. Words of power are not what fighter DO! Its what caster DO! Get buffed is not what fighter do, its what everyone do!
Fighter is still a slave to will saves and can't perform well with skill checks. He still likes 3 good stats and is highly dependent on a single type of weapon throughout his entire career. He turns into a one trick pony with few defenses. Uberchargers from 3.5 were awesome at doing one thing, but that didn't help them in social encounters or passing skill checks, or contribute beyond smashing things in a straight line.
Shaking the heavens is for wimps.
Real men pierce the heavens.
You just put a hole in it.
I grabbed the whole thing and shook it like a magic 8 ballAll signs point to yes
I win
Volron shmoltron. I prefer everyone being self contained and awesome by themselves first, and then they can work together to be more awesome. Like Power Rangers. Or something.Did you just seriously say the power rangers were more awesome than voltron
I think she did. What do we do now?
It really shouldn't be discussed because its from an optional ruleset and not everyone uses it. Its not always going to be there for the fighter. Its not a fighter buff. Its something that you can cast on anyone if you do have access to it, which the fighter doesn't, the wizard does. Words of power are not what fighter DO! Its what caster DO! Get buffed is not what fighter do, its what everyone do!
Fighter is still a slave to will saves and can't perform well with skill checks. He still likes 3 good stats and is highly dependent on a single type of weapon throughout his entire career. He turns into a one trick pony with few defenses. Uberchargers from 3.5 were awesome at doing one thing, but that didn't help them in social encounters or passing skill checks, or contribute beyond smashing things in a straight line.
Pounce is an optional rule too. Arbitrary dismissal of rules can go both ways. At worst its a spell-casting archetype. I WOUNDER IF WE CAN EVEN CALL THAT PATHFINDER omg optional rules so bad especially when they change nothing in the game except the PC using them.
So enemy casters can cast spells on the fighter but not friendly ones. Aren't they all part of combat?
Now your starting to get into other problems that are more debatable than "barbar better"
Pounce is an optional rule too.
Its not though. Its core.
Pounce is an optional rule too.Its not though. Its core.
No its not CRB. Saying standard assumption or game is a bad argument. Even things in the CRB are commonly banned (leadership). You can't just arbitrarily throw rules out and say the system is imbalanced.
Guys, its after midnight. Just stop feeding the troll.
I was hoping he'd turn into a gremlin so everyone could be sure something just ain't right.
Guys, its after midnight. Just stop feeding the troll.
Disagreeing with conventional forum wisdom is now trolling. K
No, but disagreeing with simple logic and common sense IS.
And I will feed you until you EXPLODE to prove it.
No, but disagreeing with simple logic and common sense IS.
And I will feed you until you EXPLODE to prove it.
Your the one who gave up argument. If I am ignoring logic then go ahead and name my logic flaws. Just be careful not to fall into the fallacy fallacy where you assume the person is wrong just because you find a fallacy in their argument.
Your the one that stop using logic to argue and reverted to name calling and crying troll.
name my logic flaws.
Your being incredibly obtuse and trying to use a variant rule to say that the fighter can get pounce, when really its the wizard giving the whole party pounce, and claiming this makes him better than the barbarian without putting forth any further evidence other than claiming everyone who doesn't use these rules is doing it wrong. You ignore the fact fighters have awful skills and bad saves, and also that his class features are far weaker than other class features and he has no way to replicate the power of rage powers or smite. It also infers that there's always a wizard, and it requires a dependency. When people claim the barbarian can do it on their own you claim well you could just ban that, but then ignore things like come and get me and the scaling natural armor, or the flight, or any of those other cool rage powers. You also claim in combat healing is good, but its usually behind and superstitious keeps you from getting a good chunk of damage in the first place or worse being dominated. Similarly, you claim its not teamwork to bolster your saves to keep you from being downed or CC'd, and then ignore spell sunders wonderful ability to work with teamwork.
There are a few things. I'm sure I missed some things.
name my logic flaws.Your being incredibly obtuse and trying to use a variant rule to say that the fighter can get pounce, when really its the wizard giving the whole party pounce, and claiming this makes him better than the barbarian without putting forth any further evidence other than claiming everyone who doesn't use these rules is doing it wrong. You ignore the fact fighters have awful skills and bad saves, and also that his class features are far weaker than other class features and he has no way to replicate the power of rage powers or smite. It also infers that there's always a wizard, and it requires a dependency. When people claim the barbarian can do it on their own you claim well you could just ban that, but then ignore things like come and get me and the scaling natural armor, or the flight, or any of those other cool rage powers. You also claim in combat healing is good, but its usually behind and superstitious keeps you from getting a good chunk of damage in the first place or worse being dominated. Similarly, you claim its not teamwork to bolster your saves to keep you from being downed or CC'd, and then ignore spell sunders wonderful ability to work with teamwork.
There are a few things. I'm sure I missed some things.
I didn't say most of that. But you do have a fun way interpret what i have said and clarified many times over now. Are you reading all my post? If so I'll take the time to rehash every point again.
Now true i probably did ignore all sorts of various arguments in an attempt to veer back to the topic. But i have trouble doing that when people decide to throw out the rules I'm working with. Its hard to get anywhere in the conversation when you can't get past the premise.
Marthkus, here's your issue: People on these forums assume PFS-legal characters.
YOU might not have to worry about YOUR character being PFS-legal, but the only way that "build A vs. build B" stays a fair argument is if everyone is using the same rules. The best way to do that is just to adopt what is legal in PFS play.
For example, you don't ever see how Fighters are great because of how well he utilized his Leadership feat, because most people just assume that Leadership is banned.
Ditto for casters buying up magic items - It's assumed you use the PFS legal wealth-by-level and that Item Creation isn't allowed.
(Gestalt rules exist as an "optional rule set" as well. Should we just assume because gestalt rules exist that every group can use them if they wish? LOLNO)
Gestalt rules change every charcter so it is not the same thing. WoP are a lot like introducing a new base class when it come to how much the game changes.
I do not assume PFS legal because this is not the PFS board. Even if it was they only go up to 12 and most of the problems with a fighter won't be felt until the near end of your leveling.
This is not about PFS this is about normal groups that work together and have teamwork. As opposed to pug pfs groups.
Gestalt rules change every charcter so it is not the same thing. WoP are a lot like introducing a new base class when it come to how much the game changes.
I do not assume PFS legal because this is not the PFS board. Even if it was they only go up to 12 and most of the problems with a fighter won't be felt until the near end of your leveling.
This is not about PFS this is about normal groups that work together and have teamwork. As opposed to pug pfs groups.
Its the same thing. It may not seem like it to you, but that doesn't mean it isn't to others. Just because its your rules doesn't make it special. Introducing a new base class may radically change the game. As is your point that the buff gives the whole party pounce. Which again, for the 100th time, has nothing to do with the fighter's own abilities. Words of power affects the whole party and possibly the campaign, not just the one person using it.
While PFS I don't agree with, its safe to assume most people aren't using gestalt, or piecemeal, or a homebrew class unless they bring it up. Its not a safe assumption to think everyone knows what words of power or piecemeal is, and how to use them.
This is about fighters. Fighters can be in PFS and in a home group. Home groups can be wildly different, have their own house rules, and the best way to talk about the fighter class itself is probably without more variables like that.
Gestalt rules change every charcter so it is not the same thing. WoP are a lot like introducing a new base class when it come to how much the game changes.
I do not assume PFS legal because this is not the PFS board. Even if it was they only go up to 12 and most of the problems with a fighter won't be felt until the near end of your leveling.
This is not about PFS this is about normal groups that work together and have teamwork. As opposed to pug pfs groups.
Its the same thing. It may not seem like it to you, but that doesn't mean it isn't to others. Just because its your rules doesn't make it special. Introducing a new base class may radically change the game. As is your point that the buff gives the whole party pounce. Which again, for the 100th time, has nothing to do with the fighter's own abilities. Words of power affects the whole party and possibly the campaign, not just the one person using it.
While PFS I don't agree with, its safe to assume most people aren't using gestalt, or piecemeal, or a homebrew class unless they bring it up. Its not a safe assumption to think everyone knows what words of power or piecemeal is, and how to use them.
This is about fighters. Fighters can be in PFS and in a home group. Home groups can be wildly different, have their own house rules, and the best way to talk about the fighter class itself is probably without more variables like that.
So words of power are now summoners, alchemist, ninjas and every other base class that is always permabanned because any base class outside of the CRB is the same thing a house rule?
You keep throwing around option rule like it means something. It doesn't. All the rules are optional. Not all optional rules are equal or change the fundamentals of the game.
You're right giving the whole party pounce is a big change and renders a lot of tired forum argument irrelevant.
So words of power are now summoners, alchemist, ninjas and every other base class that is always permabanned because any base class outside of the CRB is the same thing a house rule?
You keep throwing around option rule like it means something. It doesn't. All the rules are optional. Not all optional rules are equal or change the fundamentals of the game.
You're right giving the whole party pounce is a big change and renders a lot of tired forum argument irrelevant.
Playing the game is optional. Speaking with you is optional. Words of power are optional. Playing a fighter is optional. Fighters are core, and they suck at core. Buffing them with an outside class doesn't make them suck any less where it counts. They are good at full attacking with a specific weapon because they get more +1's.
It doesn't make them irrelevant. It makes greater beast totem moderately less appealing if its always on however. Even if everyone had pounce that wouldn't fix fighters. Which was my point a few post ago. He still has bad saves, skills, and class features. Find me a fighter feat that does what fiendish or celestial totem chains do. Grow arms like an alchemist or even gain the bonuses you get for it such as wielding a 2 hand and shield. Grow wings, gain a mount or animal companion, how about give himself an enhance bonus, how about buff the party with a scaling buff(Count the number of feats that even scale!), break an enchantment or debuff? That list goes on. Many of the feats that do nice things such as the style feats, have a good number of prerequisites he may have trouble meeting with his low number of skills. Feat chains make him take longer and pay more to get what another class can get cheap.
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Yes it's a teamwork game. But not everyone is eager to build a character that will be sub par without direct support from a spellcaster. Though, I suppose such a character could take Leadership and grab a pet wizard for all their buffing needs. It'd still be nicer to be helpful not just as the steel ball that gets loaded into the cannon.
The thing about buffs is they are not needed.
There is no martial class that actually "needs" buffs to remain good at what they do. Buffs just make your job easier.
So words of power are now summoners, alchemist, ninjas and every other base class that is always permabanned because any base class outside of the CRB is the same thing a house rule?
You keep throwing around option rule like it means something. It doesn't. All the rules are optional. Not all optional rules are equal or change the fundamentals of the game.
You're right giving the whole party pounce is a big change and renders a lot of tired forum argument irrelevant.
Playing the game is optional. Speaking with you is optional. Words of power are optional. Playing a fighter is optional. Fighters are core, and they suck at core. Buffing them with an outside class doesn't make them suck any less where it counts. They are good at full attacking with a specific weapon because they get more +1's.
It doesn't make them irrelevant. It makes greater beast totem moderately less appealing if its always on however. Even if everyone had pounce that wouldn't fix fighters. Which was my point a few post ago. He still has bad saves, skills, and class features. Find me a fighter feat that does what fiendish or celestial totem chains do. Grow arms like an alchemist or even gain the bonuses you get for it such as wielding a 2 hand and shield. Grow wings, gain a mount or animal companion, how about give himself an enhance bonus, how about buff the party with a scaling buff(Count the number of feats that even scale!), break an enchantment or debuff? That list goes on. Many of the feats that do nice things such as the style feats, have a good number of prerequisites he may have trouble meeting with his low number of skills. Feat chains make him take longer and pay more to get what another class can get cheap.
So are we past whether or not WoP is legit? I'm willing to move on if we can accept that. But as long as that exist as the go to fall back position, I can't constructively continue this conversation knowing that you could care less because you don't accept the premise of the argument.
The thing about buffs is they are not needed.There is no martial class that actually "needs" buffs to remain good at what they do. Buffs just make your job easier.
So you never need heals, raises, condition removal, teleport or any sort of spell help ever?
Or are some spells needed but other spells aren't?
Can the enemy cast spells on me or is it only allies that can't cast spells on the martial?
Oh and instead of talking like a normal person you revert to being condescending. Meanwhile my GM is looking over this thread, wondering what is wrong most of you guys.
The best way to make friends is to infer there's something wrong with them?
So are we past whether or not WoP is legit? I'm willing to move on if we can accept that. But as long as that exist as the go to fall back position, I can't constructively continue this conversation knowing that you could care less because you don't accept the premise of the argument.
When I accept it and give reasons fighter still sucks, you want to move past it because I can't "Accept the premise". I don't think that's how that works. I accepted the premise that everyone had pounce and went on to say fighters still sucked. Fighters without it will still suck at their core as far as I'm concerned, unless you have something to tell me otherwise, preferably with a response to my thoughts on their class features that make a fighter a fighter.
Printed rules are house rules. If it has the word optional in it that has some sort of intrinsic meaning that defacto applies to all rules in that sub category.
Since it was labeled separately to ALL OTHER SECTIONS, yes.
You fail to grasp that WoP doesn't change the magic system it offers a different one that individuals can use.
No, it quite significantly changes how magic works, whether it's for one person or all of them.
Giving pounce to the barbar changes the game less than introducing different types of casters?
Finally! A breakthrough. Just take that question mark off and you're gold.
You assume paizo just throws things in their books that they have no idea whether or not it actually works with the game and all these rules are labeled optional not because they don't want to avoid gunslinger cannon changing issues but because the rules they are making are bad and need a special bad rules section.
That's exactly what I'm saying. All you have to do is actually glance at any of the variant rules and see what I'm talking about.
All of them are incomplete and work poorly with the rest of the game, because they weren't INTENDED to work with the rest of the game. They were thrown out as cursory "official" rules for previously houseruled things.
They have any number of holes in them and change base assumptions of the game willy nilly with little regard for how it would interact with many other things. They're there to give GMs a simple baseline for stuff they could implement and then do a fixer-upper on to make them work right.
Oh and instead of talking like a normal person you revert to being condescending.
Condescension is like a drill. It's the only way to get through some thick materials.
Meanwhile my GM is looking over this thread, wondering what is wrong most of you guys.
Care to explain why exactly he's looking over your shoulder on a Friday night while you're browsing the forums? And if he's got something to say, he can get on here and say it, assuming he actually exists and doesn't just make residence in Marthkus headspace.
So you never need heals, raises, condition removal, teleport or any sort of spell help ever?
The thing about buffs is they are not needed.There is no martial class that actually "needs" buffs to remain good at what they do. Buffs just make your job easier.
Nope, you don't need those things. You walk and talk and hit stuff still. Sure makes it easier to do those things though. Good at what they do is subjective, but hey if its full attacking them with a whatever and your full BAB your probably safe. I do like my haste.
So are we past whether or not WoP is legit? I'm willing to move on if we can accept that. But as long as that exist as the go to fall back position, I can't constructively continue this conversation knowing that you could care less because you don't accept the premise of the argument.When I accept it and give reasons fighter still sucks, you want to move past it because I can't "Accept the premise". I don't think that's how that works. I accepted the premise that everyone had pounce and went on to say fighters still sucked. Fighters without it will still suck at their core as far as I'm concerned, unless you have something to tell me otherwise, preferably with a response to my thoughts on their class features that make a fighter a fighter.
So WoP is legit? Look you haven't been on board with that plan for a while now and so far your further criticism are compounded with saying WoP is not legit.
I don't care if you give everyone pounce. Is WoP legit? I can't talk about any of that other stuff until we get past point one. The rest of the conversation is meaningless if point one doesn't hold.
Assuming yes.
Who's fighting better than the fighter now?
What do they get out of combat that a fighter doesn't?
What is the barbar doing with 4 extra rage powers? (and no the barbar isn't waiting to get pounce at level 10 just so he can get a boost to saves)
Care to explain why exactly he's looking over your shoulder on a Friday night while you're browsing the forums? And if he's got something to say, he can get on here and say it, assuming he actually exists and doesn't just make residence in Marthkus headspace.
Dude we just got done with finals and its early Friday morning or a Thursday night. He actually made an account for this thread and posted, but you guys just ignored him.
EDIT: And now he went to bed. It seems like a good idea. I'm getting no where on this thread fast. Rules that conflict with forum wisdom aren't legit and the fighter must suck. Any rules that say otherwise are wrongbadfun.