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Er, rise, I guess.
Thinking about paladins got me thinking about their evil counterparts. So, what would cause an anti-paladin to fall? Would it be called rising? Do they even fall/rise?
This is not intended for serious debate, just to see what humorous reasons people come up with for anti-paladins falling/rising.
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I'll add a popular one.
Not killing goblin/orc babies.
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I'll add a popular one.
Not killing goblin/orc babies.
Simply not killing them wouldn't have any effect. Taking them in and raising them to be kind and gentle, or delivering them safely to a good-aligned orphanage... definitely.
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It does seem little unfair that Anti-paladin have it so easy so long as it's for the greater evil it's alright. Paladins don't get to do evil acts for the greater good.
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Letting a gnome live.
(Or at least it should.)
I imagine the big thing would be something like helping someone innocent, or feeling bad for someone upon whom hardship fell after being raided. Imagine your antipalading finding a homeless child who was left behind after the sack of a city, and deciding to help him by giving him clothing/food/etc. An act of kindness or selflessness, or general feeling of empathy for someone less fortunate would be the kicker me thinks.
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Not rationalizing his good acts into evil acts?
"I'm not actually saving these townsfolk from a stampede of Aurochs, I am merely prolonging their suffering, should a plague break out! YES! That will make my selfless defense of these innocent townsfolk, whom I owe nothing, a totally evil act! Muhahahaha! I am so malicious!"
I'm pretty sure you can get away with anything by saying, "It's for the greater evil." You know, that long term evil plan you're going to pull off in 20 levels. Yeah, I'll pretend to like and adventure with these neutral and good guys for 20 levels until I betray them at the last step and they all curse me with their dying breath.
I imagine the big thing would be something like helping someone innocent, or feeling bad for someone upon whom hardship fell after being raided. Imagine your antipalading finding a homeless child who was left behind after the sack of a city, and deciding to help him by giving him clothing/food/etc. An act of kindness or selflessness, or general feeling of empathy for someone less fortunate would be the kicker me thinks.I can't see someone with that much of a shred of decency ever making the Anti-Paladin cut.
Just like a Paladin is not supposed to be "a bit" lawful and "a bit" good, the Anti-Paladin is not a casual dilettante of chaos and evil, he's a whole-hearted absolute bastard representation of the same.
Did you not see How the Grinch Stole Christmas? Little kids can ruin any evil mastermind!!!!
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Did you not see How the Grinch Stole Christmas? Little kids can ruin any evil mastermind!!!!I imagine the big thing would be something like helping someone innocent, or feeling bad for someone upon whom hardship fell after being raided. Imagine your antipalading finding a homeless child who was left behind after the sack of a city, and deciding to help him by giving him clothing/food/etc. An act of kindness or selflessness, or general feeling of empathy for someone less fortunate would be the kicker me thinks.I can't see someone with that much of a shred of decency ever making the Anti-Paladin cut.
Just like a Paladin is not supposed to be "a bit" lawful and "a bit" good, the Anti-Paladin is not a casual dilettante of chaos and evil, he's a whole-hearted absolute bastard representation of the same.
This is why not giving a damn is VITAL, I tell ya.
Watching their son being electrocuted by the evil emperor.Instead of participating?
It worked Vader... But there was alot of stuff going on behind the scenes. It starts with giving a damn. Sure there is some "evilish" justification going on, like I will rule the galaxy with my son and over throw the emperor and all that... Maybe slice off your kids hand once in a while... But because you give a damn, you start to feel bad about it. Once you start feeling bad about things, years of dedicated torture, genocide, murder and whole sale planetary destruction tend to weigh on you... Snapping is inevitable at that point.
But Vader was a punk! Few bad guys truly have what it takes to be bad guys. Believe in evil, for evils sake! Palpatine and Tarkin were the true bad-asses in those flicks. Vader couldn't hold a candle to them, that's why he was always submissive to them.
I'll add a popular one.
Not killing goblin/orc babies.
Actually by killing them he's garunteeing they won't grow up to be mass murderers and create destruction. Fall. By not killing them he's not murdering babies. Fall. Its a fall/fall situation!
I'll add a popular one.
Not killing goblin/orc babies.
Actually by killing them he's garunteeing they won't grow up to be mass murderers and create destruction. Fall. By not killing them he's not murdering babies. Fall. Its a fall/fall situation!
** spoiler omitted **
So anipaladins aren't champions of evil and death.
They're just jerks.
Can't you be both? You don't have to be a jerk to want to be rewarded for going out of your way for something. For the most part they're just selfish. Their code is kind of weird. I'd say you could go either way, in fact I don't even see it say they have to champion anything.
You can be a champion of evil without being a jerk and be a jerk without championing death/evil. You can also be both at the same time. The meat of my post was the fall/fall scenario though. I hear paladins love those!
saving a burning orphanage and NOT turning it into your patron's new cult/child soldier training facility (or anything that furthers yourself or your masters) might be fall-worthy.
the trick i find to avoid falling as an antipaladin is to always attach strings to any "good" things you do. gave money to that beggar? tell him that you'll be back to collect on this favor at some undisclosed time in the future (usually unfairly weighted to your side), preferably sealed with a Brand or something.
took that orphan girl to raise as your own? to clothe, feed, and educate? she's to be but through rigorous training to be your personal bodyguard and possible successor to your mantle of evil. hey, she might hate your guts for it and try to kill you, but it will make the years of raising her more interesting with the occasional assassination attempt.
Taking in a child to raise it to help you take over the world will always fail and you will end up becoming a selfless, goody two shoe, lame, softy. I know this to be true, I watched Dragon Ball Z.
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it would be so easy to atone even if you did fall though. oops i saved a kitten last week. burn an orphanage this week, mojo back.
Taking in a child to raise it to help you take over the world will always fail and you will end up becoming a selfless, goody two shoe, lame, softy. I know this to be true, I watched Dragon Ball Z.
being an evil parent does not suddenly make you vegeta. it is perfectly fine to keep a meatshield/extra sword arm around, and it allows you to delegate unsavory activities (such as meeting with those incessant imps your lord keeps sending as messengers) to them as well.
there's also good (evil) reasons for keeping them properly healed, clothed, fed, educated, and defended (especially if they're going to actually be your successor eventually), but that's a long argument and my posts seem more LE than CE (because being SMART about how you operate is lawful for some reason).
A lot of people seem to be forgetting that an Antipaladin can fall for being too lawful as well, and its probably more likely considering that generally speaking it is harder to be good than evil.
Let's compare Devils and Demons, for example. Both want to corrupt mortal souls in order to damn them to each outsider's respective planes. How do they go about it?
Well, devils want mortals to choose evil; why they choose it doesn't matter, all that matters is that the choice comes from the mortal's own volition. They delight in the irony that your choices cause; they want you to willingly sell your own soul. That's why they have all the deals and bargains and contracts.
Demons on the other hand don't care how or why you get corrupted. The end result is the only thing they care about. They want you to embrace the most evil aspects of mortal existence, certainly, but they're more than willing to help you out to get there; note that possession is often associated with demons, not devils, for this reason.
What we can take from this is that antipaladins are expected to put the spread of evil above everything else. They don't "do things for the greater evil;" EVERYTHING an antipaladin does must be for the greater evil. Performing any sort neutral or (gasp) good act for any reason, even with evil intentions down the road, is cause for an antipaladin to fall. Chaotic Evil doesn't think ahead. True Chaotic Evil doesn't plan. True Chaotic Evil is ruthless and destructive and all-consuming. That's the nature of the Abyss, that's the nature of demons and qlipploth, and so that must be the nature of the antipaladin.
"But Alex, no!" You all cry. "That's stricter than the Paladin's code! Why would Antipaladins be judged so harshly?" Well, for one, it is easier to be Evil than Good and it is easier to be Chaotic than Lawful. And last I check, "forgiveness" was associated with Good, not Evil.
As an aside, the one game I GMed for an antipaladin involved said PC drop kicking a defenseless granny.
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@alexander: thats my main issue there--being shoehorned into playing lolrandum chaotic stupid is just that, stupid.
Taking in a child to raise it to help you take over the world will always fail and you will end up becoming a selfless, goody two shoe, lame, softy. I know this to be true, I watched Dragon Ball Z.being an evil parent does not suddenly make you vegeta. it is perfectly fine to keep a meatshield/extra sword arm around, and it allows you to delegate unsavory activities (such as meeting with those incessant imps your lord keeps sending as messengers) to them as well.
Learning to love by raising a child makes you a Piccolo though!
Learning to love by raising a child makes you a Piccolo though!Taking in a child to raise it to help you take over the world will always fail and you will end up becoming a selfless, goody two shoe, lame, softy. I know this to be true, I watched Dragon Ball Z.being an evil parent does not suddenly make you vegeta. it is perfectly fine to keep a meatshield/extra sword arm around, and it allows you to delegate unsavory activities (such as meeting with those incessant imps your lord keeps sending as messengers) to them as well.
that would imply that you suddenly grow to love them.
it would be so easy to atone even if you did fall though. oops i saved a kitten last week. burn an orphanage this week, mojo back.
Out of context this would be even funnier.
A lot of people seem to be forgetting that an Antipaladin can fall for being too lawful as well, and its probably more likely considering that generally speaking it is harder to be good than evil.
Really? I always thought that they were evil before they were chaotic. Just the same, looking out for yourself and doing nothing without gain is actually on the Chaotic Evil side of the scale.
Thought this thread was bout jokes...
EVERYTHING an antipaladin does must be for the greater evil. Performing any sort of neutral or (gasp) good act for any reason, even with evil intentions down the road, is cause for an antipaladin to fall.
This is great news! Nobody has to worry about antipaladins anymore! Did they sharpen their swords? Neutral act! They fall! Did they just open a door? That's a neutral act! They fall! Did they eat a sandwich? Neutral act! They fall!
Chaotic Evil doesn't think ahead. True Chaotic Evil doesn't plan. True Chaotic Evil is ruthless and destructive and all-consuming. That's the nature of the Abyss, that's the nature of demons and qlipploth, and so that must be the nature of the antipaladin.
"But Alex, no!" You all cry. "That's stricter than the Paladin's code! Why would Antipaladins be judged so harshly?" Well, for one, it is easier to be Evil than Good and it is easier to be Chaotic than Lawful. And last I check, "forgiveness" was associated with Good, not Evil.
As an aside, the one game I GMed for an antipaladin involved said PC drop kicking a defenseless granny.
CE is not the same as "As stupid as one can possibly be". It simply means extreme selfishness and disregard for order, rules and authority.
A lot of people seem to be forgetting that an Antipaladin can fall for being too lawful as well, and its probably more likely considering that generally speaking it is harder to be good than evil.
Let's compare Devils and Demons, for example. Both want to corrupt mortal souls in order to damn them to each outsider's respective planes. How do they go about it?
Well, devils want mortals to choose evil; why they choose it doesn't matter, all that matters is that the choice comes from the mortal's own volition. They delight in the irony that your choices cause; they want you to willingly sell your own soul. That's why they have all the deals and bargains and contracts.
Demons on the other hand don't care how or why you get corrupted. The end result is the only thing they care about. They want you to embrace the most evil aspects of mortal existence, certainly, but they're more than willing to help you out to get there; note that possession is often associated with demons, not devils, for this reason.
What we can take from this is that antipaladins are expected to put the spread of evil above everything else. They don't "do things for the greater evil;" EVERYTHING an antipaladin does must be for the greater evil. Performing any sort neutral or (gasp) good act for any reason, even with evil intentions down the road, is cause for an antipaladin to fall. Chaotic Evil doesn't think ahead. True Chaotic Evil doesn't plan. True Chaotic Evil is ruthless and destructive and all-consuming. That's the nature of the Abyss, that's the nature of demons and qlipploth, and so that must be the nature of the antipaladin.
"But Alex, no!" You all cry. "That's stricter than the Paladin's code! Why would Antipaladins be judged so harshly?" Well, for one, it is easier to be Evil than Good and it is easier to be Chaotic than Lawful. And last I check, "forgiveness" was associated with Good, not Evil.
As an aside, the one game I GMed for an antipaladin involved said PC drop kicking a defenseless granny.
I'm going to slighly diagree here, and say it's not that every act has to lead to choas and evil but that the intent behind every act is that it leads to chaos and evil.
for example charles manson did not kill his followers, not because he's nice but because they aided him in sowing more chaos and evil than he could on his own. granted there is a fine line, and more often than not the choatic evil person will behave or if being played properly will behave as outlined in your scenerio.
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Did they eat a sandwich? Neutral act! They fall!
Sandwich eating. The main cause of paladins falling.
Unless that sandwich was made of innocent souls I guess.
EVERYTHING an antipaladin does must be for the greater evil. Performing any sort of neutral or (gasp) good act for any reason, even with evil intentions down the road, is cause for an antipaladin to fall.This is great news! Nobody has to worry about antipaladins anymore! Did they sharpen their swords? Neutral act! They fall! Did they just open a door? That's a neutral act! They fall! Did they eat a sandwich? Neutral act! They fall!
CE is not the same as "As stupid as one can possibly be". It simply means extreme selfishness and disregard for order, rules and authority.Chaotic Evil doesn't think ahead. True Chaotic Evil doesn't plan. True Chaotic Evil is ruthless and destructive and all-consuming. That's the nature of the Abyss, that's the nature of demons and qlipploth, and so that must be the nature of the antipaladin.
"But Alex, no!" You all cry. "That's stricter than the Paladin's code! Why would Antipaladins be judged so harshly?" Well, for one, it is easier to be Evil than Good and it is easier to be Chaotic than Lawful. And last I check, "forgiveness" was associated with Good, not Evil.
As an aside, the one game I GMed for an antipaladin involved said PC drop kicking a defenseless granny.
Reductio ad absurdum is a not a substitute for a well reasoned counter agruement
second the alignment you describe is NE, not CE. it is neurtal evil that is commonly recognized and understood as being characterized by selfishness and self centeredness.
CE has nothing to with selfishnes. CE is about the sowing choas and evil, sowing chaos is not an inheretly selflish act. it is in fact an a point of view that has nothing to with one wants or needs, but rather a perference for the state of of disorder which in general is not what a fundemental selfish person wishes because there are many times when choas and disorder are to the disadvantage of the person.
What you are interpeting as stupid is the fact, that CE simply does not care about what is smart or prudent because such thoughts are in anthecial to the mantra of choas and evil. You will note that almost every creature describe as bein choatic evil in the book, will often have a note that says, it lives a short brutish live, characterize by violence.
CE has nothing to with selfishnes. CE is about the sowing choas and evil, sowing chaos is not an inheretly selflish act. it is in fact an a point of view that has nothing to with one wants or needs, but rather a perference for the state of of disorder which in general is not what a fundemental selfish person wishes because there are many times when choas and disorder are to the disadvantage of the person.
Going out of your way to cause disorder without benefiting from it? Fall!
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But Vader was a punk! Few bad guys truly have what it takes to be bad guys. Believe in evil, for evils sake! Palpatine and Tarkin were the true bad-asses in those flicks. Vader couldn't hold a candle to them, that's why he was always submissive to them.
TREASON!
1.The overarching conflict in SW isn't a between good and evil, but between two opposing sides of the force.2. Vader was a bamf, and was submissive until the time was right, just as every master/apprentice relationship was on the dark side during that trend.
Joker is as CE as one can be. And yet, he most often makes detailed plans which he enacts with great precision
He doesn't care for anyone or anything but himself, and he does his best to sow chaos.
I'm pretty sure I can think of more CE character who do more than walk around randomly kicking puppies and killing children.
Chaotic =/= Stupid or even Impulsive!
But Vader was a punk! Few bad guys truly have what it takes to be bad guys. Believe in evil, for evils sake! Palpatine and Tarkin were the true bad-asses in those flicks. Vader couldn't hold a candle to them, that's why he was always submissive to them.TREASON!
1.The overarching conflict in SW isn't a between good and evil, but between two opposing sides of the force.
2. Vader was a bamf, and was submissive until the time was right, just as every master/apprentice relationship was on the dark side during that trend.
Still, villains who can't comit should never pick up the mantle in the first place. Heroes corrupted to evil is fine and all. But Vader is the poster child for a long triteful string of redeemed baddies. You want a real hero? Hail Revan! Vader lost all cool points at the point of his redemption.
And if you think that the theme is light/ dark more than good/ evil... Then you might be watching the wrong movie. Revan was the best example of a grey Jedi who used both light and dark sides to accomplish truly neutral purposes... Treason... Phft!
Vader lost all cool points at the point of his redemption.May you burn in the fiery pits of Mustafar ;)
doesn't byrdology have fire immunity though?
doesn't byrdology have fire immunity though?Vader lost all cool points at the point of his redemption.May you burn in the fiery pits of Mustafar ;)
He can still drown in lava.
Refraining from hitting a good member of your party in the middle of melee. An Anti-paladin must be like the Hulk when he slammed Thor in the middle of the climactic fight in the Avengers.
Deciding not to swipe the panties of the Sorceress and hide them in the do gooder Clerics backpack with a copy of June's Naughty Elf Ladies. An Anti-Paladin must sow the seeds of Chaos.
A team player who works well with others should never be on a Paladins resume.
In my opinion, an Anti-Paladin isn't doing his job if every other player doesnt want to cut his throat.
Vader lost all cool points at the point of his redemption.May you burn in the fiery pits of Mustafar ;)
Ok, thread de-rail moment here... What makes a bad guy, well bad... Is that he is good at it. Bad guys who have a change of heart/ are tortured by some tragic past event that corrupts them to evil are tragic... Not bad... If you feel sorry for the bad guy, then he is doing it wrong! Lets take a cross- genre trip for a sec...
What makes the Joker a threat? Unrepentant, irredeemable evil. Someone who believes in evil because , hey, why not... No mercy, no rhyme or reason, just plain bad. That's what makes him scary. Palpating and Tarkin were bad... I mean BAD! Vader was bad too until you find out that he wasn't... At that point, everything he did for the cause of evil was not only void, but was made to be a senseless tragedy. Now you have a bad guy that people feel bad for... That's not a good bad guy, that's just plain vanilla bad. It's like taking the teeth out of a shark and teaching him to eat sea weed. You feel sorry for him. Not piss-your-pants scared like you should be of a shark.
Vader lost all cool points at the point of his redemption.May you burn in the fiery pits of Mustafar ;)Ok, thread de-rail moment here... What makes a bad guy, well bad... Is that he is good at it. Bad guys who have a change of heart/ are tortured by some tragic past event that corrupts them to evil are tragic... Not bad... If you feel sorry for the bad guy, then he is doing it wrong! Lets take a cross- genre trip for a sec...
What makes the Joker a threat? Unrepentant, irredeemable evil. Someone who believes in evil because , hey, why not... No mercy, no rhyme or reason, just plain bad. That's what makes him scary. Palpating and Tarkin were bad... I mean BAD! Vader was bad too until you find out that he wasn't... At that point, everything he did for the cause of evil was not only void, but was made to be a senseless tragedy. Now you have a bad guy that people feel bad for... That's not a good bad guy, that's just plain vanilla bad. It's like taking the teeth out of a shark and teaching him to eat sea weed. You feel sorry for him. Not piss-your-pants scared like you should be of a shark.
I'll have to say YMMV on this. Darth Vader was terrifying and completely willing to kill his own men as an example to force them into submission. Just the same, not all villains are evil. The road to evil is paved with good intentions blahblabblah.
The important thing is that that's all opinion so YMMV, and this is a thread about anti-paladins...
To true... So... Anti-paladins turning good... I'm sure it is not a heat of the moment event like it may be for paladins. Becoming disallusioned and going for the wound instead of the kill is certainly a start.
To true... So... Anti-paladins turning good... I'm sure it is not a heat of the moment event like it may be for paladins. Becoming disallusioned and going for the wound instead of the kill is certainly a start.
Neither have to be slow or fast. Sometimes its you fall in love and fight emotions to join whatever faction your lover is on. Sometimes its a feeling in the pit of your stomach that you just can't get it. With paladins this can be the feeling of being unthanked, hated, or a growing lust for blood or vengeance. Similarly an anti-paladin can be swayed slowly coming to enjoy something and wanting to cherish it.
Alternatively, you could've accidentally saved a puppy and had a really mean DM.