| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
Manipulating NPCs into committing mass murder doesn't make your PC less evil, it just makes him manipulative.
Morality in roleplaying games that have alignment systems and entire planes of existence built on the tangible manifestation of those alignments is pretty cut & dry. Murdering innocent creatures (or intentionally causing them to be murdered) is an evil action, not an excuse to try to engage in semantic games to say that it's only kinda sorta evil.
While I agree that killing babies doesn't seem neutral to me, I guess maybe you could see if you could find other adult goblins, lure them to where the child goblins are, wait for the kids to be sprung and then kill the adult goblins and the babies in battle? Act like it was an accident. Though really, I still think this would be an evil act.
Honestly though, I'd wait and see what the DM did with the goblins over time. If they become evil, tell the paladin you told him so and kill them.
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
As someone who has had fellow players cheerfully stab him in the back to murder the NPCs he was trying to save, I'd strongly suggest talking to the paladin's player and asking how he would feel about what you're planning.
Do you honestly expect both of you to be able to, or want to, remain in the same party if you go through with this?
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sounds like you're premeditating murder... If that's not evil, I'm not sure what is.
You have greater invisibility soonish(if not now from scroll). Use invisibility to get in, greater invisibility to kill them with no one the wiser, and invisibility again to get out. Bonus points if you drop evidence that makes other people look like they did it. Or just convince someone else to do it after casting invisibility. Invisibility would be my way to get it done.
Really though, killing babies behind the paladins back probably isn't that cool. I would suggest against baby killing in a party with a paladin.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Fight the paladin or don't, sneak in if you want, trick the townsfolk to do the killing for you, whatever.
The point is, if it's YOU that is doing the murdering, or YOU that is doing the tricking, or YOU that is doing the planning, then all the evil of the act is on YOU.
I hate to invoke Godwin's Law, but it's the perfect analogy. Hitler killed 6 million Jews. Just how many of them do you think he actually killed with his own hands? Maybe none. He simply did the planning and gave the orders. Nobody would deny that Hitler was evil, even if he didn't personally do the killing.
Same for you.
So, if you're going to do it, no matter how you do it or who you convince or trick or deceive into doing it for you, the act is still YOUR act. On YOU.
So, if your DM says that you are evil for killing them, then he's going to say it no matter how you do it. If that bothers you, then listen to him and avoid committing this evil act. If it doesn't bother you for him to call you evil, then just get on with it and get to the killing.
|
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
You may have to use most of your spells for several days, but in the end, it will be worth it in terms of how much more time you'll find you have after. Oh, and be sure to read the entire post before doing anything.
Paladin, goblin babies, and summoner. Excellent.
You'll need to set up in a location near the paladin. First, cast protection from good on a goblin baby. Next, cast enlarge person on the goblin baby. You now have a small sized goblin baby that detects as evil. Now open the door, call the paladin, and say, "Oh noes. There is an evil goblin here. Save me." Paladin detects evil, detects an aura from the protection from good spell, smacks the baby goblin until it is baby goblin jelly.
Repeat over the course of several days as needed until all the goblin babies are dead. You may need to come up with creative stories about the empty baby goblin cribs, beds, etc.
At this point, let's see who's done what. You have sacrificed numerous spell slots in order to protect goblin babies. The paladin has killed numerous innocent goblin babies.
Somewhere in the course of this, or after, the GM will chortle and tell the paladin his powers have failed. You may have to buy the GM some Mountain Dew and Doritos and whisper difficult to understand phrases in the GM's ear that include the words, "...paladin...kill...baby...fall..." The GM may balk at first, but will eventually understand the glory of the plan.
Now, in order to prepare you for this next part, you have to understand that you are doing the paladin's player a favor by helping him experience this part of the game. There will likely be some disagreement between the paladin's player and the GM. This is normal. At some point, your role in this will also be unveiled. This is now the key moment; say, "It wasn't me. This is just what my character would do."
If you've been wondering about the first sentence of this post, I need to explain that your friends will likely suggest you learn how to bowl, race bicycles, take up a sport, or something similar. Having experienced all the best parts of role playing games, there is little reason to keep playing, and they are unlikely to invite you back anyway. Thus, more time on your hands.
|
|
As soon as you hit 5th level you'll detect as evil, if you're responsible for their murder. Even a paladin will get that clue!
Why does killing these babies matter so much that you'd risk your friendship/life over it? Surely your own life matters more to you than the lives of the babies? Causing their murder will badly affect the life of your PC, and that life might not be very long if you're a baby murderer hoping to hang around a paladin!
Take a breath, look in the mirror and get your priorities straight!
|
There are certain assumptions and guidelines that I play under at my table: Creatures that are evil in the bestiary are primarily evil by nature, not by nurture. In other words, even though these Goblin babies are "innocent" in action today, they are universally guilty of being evil. Generally, if a creature is not inherently evil, or if their alignment is subject to change, it will say so in the entry.
The most humane thing that I would expect you to do for them is to leave them to fate... or leave one goblin alive to care for them... or if you were really feeling generous, wrap them up and drop them off near another Goblin tribe.
Taking them back to the town is a terrible idea. By the time they are old enough, they will seek to kill their owners and escape... that is... if word hasn't gotten out to the Goblin tribes that they have gobo-pups entrapped in a human town somewhere. That just sounds like a massacre waiting to happen.
Bottom line, it was a foolish action on the part of the Paladin to capture them and attempt to raise them in town. He is literally playing with evil. Now, if the DM seems to like this idea because he really doesn't believe in the nature of evil creatures, then you need to re-align your thought process and understand that in Golarion, at your GM's table, there is no such thing as "inherently evil", and that all creatures are liable to "repent". On the other hand, he may just be letting this play out, knowing full-well that the's Gobo's are going to turn on you.
I would have that "philosophical" conversation with your DM.
If you're really hell-bent on killing these things, 1 AOE spell will kill ALL of them. One well-placed fireball will end the whole thing. As a player, act like you're over it and never speak of it again, then subtly write a note to your DM explaining your plot so that the other players don't get suspicious, and just end it privately.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Meh. Goblins are evil and deserve to die. Period.
Depends on your games. I've been in mellow groups who let them lean either way, and in groups where everything that's evil is evil. I've also been in groups where redemption is evil, and another where PVP was okay and another where I got crit by the group's gunslinger in order to save an orphanage. Most of my groups say PvP is a big no no. I'm big on group cohesion myself.
To the OP: Generally, doing that kind of thing would cause you to go from neutral to evil pretty fast at my table at least. Don't know if that's an issue though. Is there any special reason you want them killed other than just for fun?
There are certain assumptions and guidelines that I play under at my table: Creatures that are evil in the bestiary are primarily evil by nature, not by nurture. In other words, even though these Goblin babies are "innocent" in action today, they are universally guilty of being evil. Generally, if a creature is not inherently evil, or if their alignment is subject to change, it will say so in the entry.
That is one interpretation. However, in Golarion there are non-evil goblins, and I think there's been mention of non-evil members of other generally evil species as well.
I generally play it as a bit of both. On that topic, I think this is a fantastic thread:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m4cm&page=1?Monster-orphanages-and-sanctua ries
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm the gm for this game and this whole thing cracks me up.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There are certain assumptions and guidelines that I play under at my table: Creatures that are evil in the bestiary are primarily evil by nature, not by nurture. In other words, even though these Goblin babies are "innocent" in action today, they are universally guilty of being evil. Generally, if a creature is not inherently evil, or if their alignment is subject to change, it will say so in the entry.That is one interpretation. However, in Golarion there are non-evil goblins, and I think there's been mention of non-evil members of other generally evil species as well.
You're absolutely right, and perhaps I should have clarified when talking about "my table". At "my table", I set that expectation so that the players understand that I won't penalize them for taking the "evil" into consideration while dealing with "innocents". I won't turn them evil for leaving the pups where they are, or perhaps putting them out of their misery in the most humane way possible.
Also, that goes for playing with evil races. When they wanna play an evil race, I won't force them to be evil per say, but two things:
1. I want a back story
2. Everyone in Golarion will treat them as untrustworthy, and perhaps even try to assassinate them.
Explain to the Paladin that, while they may look like babies, they're actually monsters. The only reason they don't detect as evil is they don't have enough HD.
If you leave the Goblins in the orphanage, more likely than not, the Goblins will end up murdering the orphanage staff as soon as they're old enough to brandish a kitchen knife.
Ask the Paladin if he's really willing to take that chance.
Also bring up that while the party may have had good cause to suspect the Goblins at Thistletop were up to no good, you didn't actually take the time to investigate which Goblins were actually guilty, and which ones were just in the wrong place at the wrong time; you just invaded their home and massacred all the Goblins indiscriminately.
Remind the Paladin that it's perfectly normal to assume that all the Goblins were evil since all Goblins are evil. Just like those Goblins he left at the orphanage are evil.
TL;DR: Not babies, Monsters
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
There are certain assumptions and guidelines that I play under at my table: Creatures that are evil in the bestiary are primarily evil by nature, not by nurture. In other words, even though these Goblin babies are "innocent" in action today, they are universally guilty of being evil. Generally, if a creature is not inherently evil, or if their alignment is subject to change, it will say so in the entry.That is one interpretation. However, in Golarion there are non-evil goblins, and I think there's been mention of non-evil members of other generally evil species as well.
That and there's Sarenrae. :)
Blood of Angels has a feat geared towards non-human-born aasimar who are intended by whatever power of Good has blessed them to lead the race they were born into towards something better. Those possibilities include typically evil races.
Goblins are not hardwired to be irredeemably evil. They're not damned for having the misfortune of being born into the "wrong" race.
Good and Evil need to mean something more than different team jerseys. Leave the genocide and infanticide to the bad guys.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm the gm for this game and this whole thing cracks me up.Do you like Mountain Dew?
I do, and Doritos.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Within the context of the setting, as far as the people of Varisia are concerned, goblins are vermin. That eat people. They are dangerous & predatory and as such they are a threat to be dealt with. They are not people, aren't considered people, and don't have the rights of people. You don't hesitate to wipe out a nest of rats, why would you hesitate to wipe out a nest of goblins?
Now, I'm not saying a goblin can't be raised to be non-evil. I'm just saying that the people who live with the threat of goblins most likely wouldn't bother. Heck, Sandpoint at some point actually offers bounties for goblin ears.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm the gm for this game and this whole thing cracks me up.
I like how the DM of this particular game and situation has an avatar picture of an evil looking goblin. It's fitting.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Goblins are not hardwired to be irredeemably evil. They're not damned for having the misfortune of being born into the "wrong" race.
Good and Evil need to mean something more than different team jerseys. Leave the genocide and infanticide to the bad guys.
I wouldn't say that they can't change, but I wouldn't lump the responsibility on my party to make that happen.... but it sounds like it would make for some fun roll-play.
What you're suggesting about "leave genocide to the bad guys" essentially unravels the entire game, and makes you question just about every combat encounter you ever have. If they're all redeemable, then why are we using lethal means of attack?
"The only valid attack vs goblins is sleep, because anything else is cutting their potential for good short"
I know i'm putting words into your mouth, but following your logic, it's like saying that they should all be captured, roped up, and forced to learn about good stuff to see if it takes root, if not... kill them or let them go somewhere.
As for babies, like I said, I don't encourage my players to kill them outright, but I don't consider them evil for ridding the world of them.
The good guys with good intentions will do more harm trying to muck with the nature of evil... it's the task of Deity.
"They're not damned for having the misfortune of being born into the "wrong" race." I respect your sympathy, but don't push it on me :P
I remember a game I was in where they took the stance that goblins were redeemable to the extreme, and said that me going out of my way to slay them during a war on the battlefield was evil. Never mind the fact they were still stabbing people...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Killing Goblin infants is like sorching Xenomorph egg sacks. Easy to do now and saves you a whole lot of trouble later.
|
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Goblins are not hardwired to be irredeemably evil. They're not damned for having the misfortune of being born into the "wrong" race.
Good and Evil need to mean something more than different team jerseys. Leave the genocide and infanticide to the bad guys.
I wouldn't say that they can't change, but I wouldn't lump the responsibility on my party to make that happen.... but it sounds like it would make for some fun roll-play.
What you're suggesting about "leave genocide to the bad guys" essentially unravels the entire game, and makes you question just about every combat encounter you ever have. If they're all redeemable, then why are we using lethal means of attack?
"The only valid attack vs goblins is sleep, because anything else is cutting their potential for good short"
I know i'm putting words into your mouth, but following your logic, it's like saying that they should all be captured, roped up, and forced to learn about good stuff to see if it takes root, if not... kill them or let them go somewhere.
You're right, that is putting words in my mouth.
If there's a clear and present danger, yes, lethal force can be called for. But these are children.
There's also a huge difference between "goblins raiding the village/preparing to sacrifice someone" and "goblin minding his own business". There's a difference between a goblin forcing your hand towards lethal force and butchering non-combatants.
I've been playing this game for a long time. It does not hinge on genocide being okay.
The good guys with good intentions will do more harm trying to muck with the nature of evil... it's the task of Deity.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing. We have PCs empowered by Good deities to do that actual work.
If one is playing a redemptive character, like the paladin apparently is, they absolutely should try to change the world for the better.
"They're not damned for having the misfortune of being born into the "wrong" race." I respect your sympathy, but don't push it on me :P
I could say the same for all the folks that have shoved baby-murder genocide fantasies down my throat during my first experiences with the game.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"I've been playing this game for a long time. It does not hinge on genocide being okay."
- You mean your game doesn't hinge on genocide being okay, and that's okay.
"If one is playing a redemptive character, like the paladin apparently is, they absolutely should try to change the world for the better."
-Sometimes changing the world for better means killing the evil little critters that lurk in the night and kill your family in their bed. It's simply a different way of viewing what evil is, and what good is.
"I could say the same for all the folks that have shoved baby-murder genocide fantasies down my throat during my first experiences with the game."
-Touche. Sincerely, I would have no qualms with playing at a table that viewed "evil" as a primarily learned trait.
Well, the Dwarves have a long history of Genocide in Golarion.
You actually can't get rid of the hatred racial trait without getting another form of hatred out of it...
What you're suggesting about "leave genocide to the bad guys" essentially unravels the entire game, and makes you question just about every combat encounter you ever have. If they're all redeemable, then why are we using lethal means of attack?
"The only valid attack vs goblins is sleep, because anything else is cutting their potential for good short"
Uhmm... There's a pretty huge difference between killing goblin raiders that are actively trying to hurt you and the town and actively going after and murdering defenseless goblin children.
Like, the difference between shooting a robber and going home to the robber and shooting his daughter.
I wouldn't necessarily consider players evil if they kill off the goblin babies if it's either that or leave them on their own (but god knows it ain't good) but actively trying to covertly murder them when they're taken to town and might have an actual chance of growing up to not be evil? Yeah, that's really really bad.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Don't you play this game to be a hero? Is that what you think a hero should do, kill children.
|
|
When I first played through RotRL, I think we ended up searching the local forests for a druid, then asking the druid to raise them in the wild. A Knowledge (Local) check told us that goblins routinely abuse their young, to ensure they grow up mean and vicious. Being raised feral is an improvement, right?
Come to think of it, I can't remember why we thought we specifically needed a druid.
On my second playthrough, we had a paladin with us. This mattered less because of alignment debates and more because he had maxed out his Charisma and Diplomacy skill, so he was able to convince the local priest to raise them in the church of Desna. Maybe they all grew up to be neutral good Clerics?
The thread is proceeding as the last dozen or so about this issue have. With people arguing from two differing positions on one philosophical issue. There's only one thing you need to know: the nature of evil. Ask the DM. If they are irredeemably inherently evil... finish them or let nature take it's rather cruel course. If evil is a matter of nurture rather than nature, that's different. If it's some combination of the two... you're up the creek :) Although if it was strictly nurture, given the poor combat qualities of Goblins you'd think there would be scores of good fostered Goblins running around being nice... but there are, in Golarion, good Goblins. Start paddling boys :D
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I feel strongly that if you want a game of moral absolutes where monsters are evil, then you must actually keep things morally absolute. That means no children, no monsters begging for mercy, no moral ambiguity at all. The moment you do that, a player is entirely within his right to call out the circumstances portrayed in the game as being morally objectionable and act accordingly.
Kudos to the Paladin for playing the redeemer, especially in the face of an uncooperative party. This situation may well end in bloodshed, but if the group has the maturity to carry forward regardless of the outcome then it could be a rich experience.
I suppose posting recipes of delicious baby goblin stew around town wouldn't work.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ma-ma! Ma-ma! Ma-ma!
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Could you please put a [Spoiler] tag or something when you talk about specifics of an AP. I am currently running RotRl and my group hasn't gotten to this point yet. One of my players is on these forums a lot and has already seen one post that wasn't tagged as such so he has information he shouldn't. Please think of others when making posts like these. Thank you.