Was discussing this topic with a gamer in a public library. He said his DM stated that per the rules, some form of combat must be taking place or about to take place. I stated that there were no such rules and as long as you could communicate with the creature, it should be able to follow your orders/requests as long as they didn't go against its base nature. I gave the example of a high level wizard summoning a good outer planar being with healing abilities to restore wounded companions. He said that his dm wouldn't allow it as no combat was currently taking place. Where can I find rules on this sort of thing?
I know of no such rule and suspect your friends DM is either mistaken or has houseruled it.
- Torger
Yeah, but not well. They don't stick around very long, but if you need to summon some sort of giant to punch a boulder out of the way you can pull that off.
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Summon monster seems to only be intended for combat. If the PC wants something more, like tapping into a creature's healing abilities, then they must use a Planar Binding or Planar Ally spell which is more open-ended.
So just making up whatever rules you want?
Nothing says that summoned monsters must be summoned during combat or that their abilities are only usable in combat. You can summon a monster and, if you can communicate with it, tell it to do whatever you want.Walk down that hall (good way to check for traps), Heal my buddy, Carry my fallen companion.....anything, as long as you can communicate with it and follow the rules for how long the creature is around.
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Summon monster seems to only be intended for combat. If the PC wants something more, like tapping into a creature's healing abilities, then they must use a Planar Binding or Planar Ally spell which is more open-ended.
Based on what?
I see no reason that I couldn't summon an invisible stalker to go into the next section of the dungeon and report what's there, a fire elemental to start something burning, a water elemental to put it out, or an astral deva to lift a heavy object out of the way.
For that matter, that same astral deva can cast continual flame "at will"; I could use the spell and then ask it to make me an everburning torch, please. Or to use dispel magic to remove some effect, remove curse or remove disease to lift someone's affliction, or simply fly me across a chasm.
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I Agree with Fake Healer. If you summon in Archon Lanterns and can ask them to use their Aid spell-like ability on party members, they will. If you summon an ape and ask it to open a door (if you can communicate with it) then it will open the door. Any notion that combat must be engaged is derived from the line "It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability", but if you can communicate it can be instructed to "perform other actions" as CRB p.352 clearly states. Nuff said.
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This is about as straight-forward as others have said. To add a tiny bit more detail though...
First, you'll have to be quick about it. They stick around for about 6 seconds per caster level, so you'll have to quickly tell them what to do.
Second, you have to be able to tell them WHAT TO DO. Otherwise the creature will either "attack opponents to the best of its ability" (cited above), or probably just act in accord with its general nature if there are no opponents at hand. In some cases this might work out; you can probably make a plausible argument to your GM that a Good aligned summoned Celestial Dolphin will, if it sees someone drowning nearby, try to rescue them even without instructions to do so. Alternatively, a summoned Celestial Dog brought into an empty room where there's no obvious problem might just yawn, scratch itself, and wonder if someone will pet it until its summon duration runs out. You might need a Speak with Animals spell to tell it "dig over here!", because nothing is obviously stimulating to its general nature or alignment.
Third, we can make an inferred case that non-combat summons are intended. There are several summoned creatures who are just about worthless in a fight but offer some sort of special ability, such as the Fire Beetle. Sure, their light sucks compared to the light you'd get out of a torch, Light Spell, or so on... but it's very clear their intended use is just 'summon a little bit of light if you have no other option handy for illuminating the area.' Same deal for some summons with spells; sometimes their spells are better than their fighting. Sure, arguing designer intent can be murky... but there is no other sane reason for some of these things to be on Summon lists.
I think the answer is just as others have said: Yes, you can use Summons outside of combat; just bear in mind the limitations of doing so.
One of the advantages a Sumoner has, his class ability to Summon Monster lasts 1 minute per level!
As 2bz2p pointed out, the Summoner gets a lot more use out of this. If you speak Auran, or have some other way to communicate with elementals, a summoned air elemental can scout a fairly large area. a dolphin will have a good idea of what's in that dark lake/pool/etc. thanks to blindsense...i think the point has been sufficiently illustrated that 1) No, you do not have to be in combat because 2)there are any number of other things a summoned monster can do. The real limitation is communication, something easily overcome by speak with animal and/or the language skill.
I like taking earth elementals and having them earth glide into adjacent rooms, under locked doors, scout around, then come back and report what they found.
as to the continual flame, i dont know if you can make an ever burning torch with that... wont it just be dismissed (not the same as dispelled) when the creature leaves this plane?
other than that, yea... if you can get them to do something, combat is a player, not character state, for lack of a better term.
Unfortunately, RAW summoned creatures can't use spell-like abilities with expensive material components. No continual flames.
Was discussing this topic with a gamer in a public library. He said his DM stated that per the rules, some form of combat must be taking place or about to take place. I stated that there were no such rules and as long as you could communicate with the creature, it should be able to follow your orders/requests as long as they didn't go against its base nature. I gave the example of a high level wizard summoning a good outer planar being with healing abilities to restore wounded companions. He said that his dm wouldn't allow it as no combat was currently taking place. Where can I find rules on this sort of thing?
Can you use summoned monsters outside of combat? Yes
DMs can rule 0 whatever they want, but there is no rule, precedent, vague misinterpretation of the rules that can allow you to assume summon monster can't be casted outside of combat.
Are you sure you weren't talking to a 4th ed player?
Summon monster seems to only be intended for combat. If the PC wants something more, like tapping into a creature's healing abilities, then they must use a Planar Binding or Planar Ally spell which is more open-ended.
I cannot even fathom the confusion of ideas that would lead to such a conclusion.
I suppose using a 6th level spell to summon a Lillend Azata you buy yourself 2x Cure Serious Wounds spells plus 5x Cure Light Wounds spells, with some rounds left over for a few other free spells as well.
Yep, you could do just that.
Commune? is kinda like a summons... but, that's still pretty strong...
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If the DM insist on "in combat" start a fist fight with another grp member :)
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Summoned monsters are also hand for some skill use or aiding for a really hard check.
Once my GM also let me use a summoned badger to help dig out a partially caved in passage. This was a 3.5e game. The badger was my signature monster; had a name and everything. So sad that they didn't make the cut for PF.
(As an aside, there's a whole lotta 4e bashing in this thread. C'mon Paizo community, be better.)
I suppose using a 6th level spell to summon a Lillend Azata you buy yourself 2x Cure Serious Wounds spells plus 5x Cure Light Wounds spells, with some rounds left over for a few other free spells as well.Yep, you could do just that.That would total about 70hp of healing on average?
Is there a better bang for your buck (in terms of healing potential) with a different monster summons?
In 3.5e, it was advantageous for a druid to use summon nature's ally iv to conjure forth a unicorn to cast cure light/moderate wounds.
Ah, good times.
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Summoned monsters are also hand for some skill use or aiding for a really hard check.
Once my GM also let me use a summoned badger to help dig out a partially caved in passage. This was a 3.5e game. The badger was my signature monster; had a name and everything. So sad that they didn't make the cut for PF.(As an aside, there's a whole lotta 4e bashing in this thread. C'mon Paizo community, be better.)
4E sales are dropping. There are even reprinting 3.5 books.
So, even D&D players dislike 4E.
Who needs WoW with dice, when there is WoW?
Did 4th Edition even have Summon Monster spells?
Who would houserule such a thing?
That is a pure anti-roleplay move.
I actualy get the intent of the houserule. I'd guess that someone feels that getting one SLA/round till the creature is out of SLAs is an abuse of the intent of summoning. I get where they're coming from. It is really powerful.
I think the intent is more scaling back of summoning power than "anti-roleplay"
Doesn't mean I agree with it but I see where they're coming from.
- Torger
I suppose using a 6th level spell to summon a Lillend Azata you buy yourself 2x Cure Serious Wounds spells plus 5x Cure Light Wounds spells, with some rounds left over for a few other free spells as well.Yep, you could do just that.That would total about 70hp of healing on average?
Is there a better bang for your buck (in terms of healing potential) with a different monster summons?
So whats the problem here? The cleric at that level is using heal to cure 110 hp of damage plus all ills.
If your worried about balance clerics can summon too and summon monster takes a 1-round casting time as opposed to healing spells standard action.
Did 4th Edition even have Summon Monster spells?
Yes-ish. They were more or less like an eilodon except way suckier and could only be cast during combat. 4th Ed doesn't have spells per-say. They have rituals and powers. I don't think summoning was a ritual.
Regardless you could only have one out at a time and whatever actions it took were taken away from you.
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Who would houserule such a thing?
That is a pure anti-roleplay move.
I actualy get the intent of the houserule. I'd guess that someone feels that getting one SLA/round till the creature is out of SLAs is an abuse of the intent of summoning. I get where they're coming from. It is really powerful.
I think the intent is more scaling back of summoning power than "anti-roleplay"
Doesn't mean I agree with it but I see where they're coming from.
- Torger
Every Summon used out of combat is one that cannot be used in combat.
That is hardly an abuse.
In fact, I see it unfair to have any class be unable to use their class features outside of combat.
A Barbarian can Rage outside of combat to pump his ability to break through a door.
Who would tell him no?
I only played 4th Edition one or two times so I didnt bother memorizing the rules, lol.
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What about an Alchemist's Bombs?
I can think of so many use outside combat.
Does anything happen out of combat in this game?
Is there a list of class abilities that cannot be used out of combat?
How does this not break verisimilitude?
PC 1:"Hey, why don't you summon one those monster things to help us out?"
PC 2:"I am unable to do that now, as using it outside of initiative is disallowed."
PC 1:"What?!?"
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What about an Alchemist's Bombs?
I can think of so many use outside combat.
Does anything happen out of combat in this game?
Is there a list of class abilities that cannot be used out of combat?
How does this not break verisimilitude?
PC 1:"Hey, why don't you summon one those monster things to help us out?"
PC 2:"I am unable to do that now, as using it outside of initiative is disallowed."
PC 1:"What?!?"
Shhh D&D is a war game. Don't get into the mindset of your character. You're the player and everything you can or can't do is carefully regulated to maintain party balance.
I mean if you can do things out of combat while the fighter can't, does that mean the fighter should be better at fighting? No, no one should be able to do things outside of combat. PCs should enter a dungeon and never come out. Beds and shops should be waiting for them every couple of floors or so. Or the PCs could just throw gold into the air to buy things, because why break up the combat fun with roleplaying.
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What about an Alchemist's Bombs?
I can think of so many use outside combat.
Does anything happen out of combat in this game?
Is there a list of class abilities that cannot be used out of combat?
How does this not break verisimilitude?
PC 1:"Hey, why don't you summon one those monster things to help us out?"
PC 2:"I am unable to do that now, as using it outside of initiative is disallowed."
PC 1:"What?!?"
PC 1 to DM: I slap PC 2.
What about an Alchemist's Bombs?
I can think of so many use outside combat.
Does anything happen out of combat in this game?
Is there a list of class abilities that cannot be used out of combat?
How does this not break verisimilitude?
PC 1:"Hey, why don't you summon one those monster things to help us out?"
PC 2:"I am unable to do that now, as using it outside of initiative is disallowed."
PC 1:"What?!?"
I see this conversation "in character"...so it would probably follow the like of many conversations in "A Bard's Tale"
PC 1:"What are you talking about? What is initiative? Why are rolling dice? No, I don't know what a 'Dex modifier' is."
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FYI you could totally summon a monster in 4e outside of combat. IIRC they last until the end of the encounter or 5 minutes, so they have a longer duration than most summons in 3e/PF. And the rules spell out that they use your abilities for checks, so the summon can actually be quite skillful.
Summoned monsters are also hand for some skill use or aiding for a really hard check.
Once my GM also let me use a summoned badger to help dig out a partially caved in passage. This was a 3.5e game. The badger was my signature monster; had a name and everything. So sad that they didn't make the cut for PF.(As an aside, there's a whole lotta 4e bashing in this thread. C'mon Paizo community, be better.)
4E sales are dropping. There are even reprinting 3.5 books.
So, even D&D players dislike 4E.
Who needs WoW with dice, when there is WoW?
All the more reason to be magnanimous in victory. And just because there are fewer 4e players, doesn't make their personal preference any less valid. It may not be yours (or mine) but we don't need to be bad winners.
Who would houserule such a thing?
That is a pure anti-roleplay move.
I actualy get the intent of the houserule. I'd guess that someone feels that getting one SLA/round till the creature is out of SLAs is an abuse of the intent of summoning. I get where they're coming from. It is really powerful.
I think the intent is more scaling back of summoning power than "anti-roleplay"
Doesn't mean I agree with it but I see where they're coming from.
- Torger
Every Summon used out of combat is one that cannot be used in combat.
That is hardly an abuse.
In fact, I see it unfair to have any class be unable to use their class features outside of combat.
A Barbarian can Rage outside of combat to pump his ability to break through a door.Who would tell him no?
Oh I agree. It's a bad houserule. I'm just saying the intent was probably to curb the power of summoning not to squash role playing.
- Torger
PC 1:"What are you talking about? What is initiative? Why are rolling dice? No, I don't know what a 'Dex modifier' is."
Wouldn't this be exactly why it's nonsensical for PC 2 to only be able to summon when they are in this 'initiative' thing?
Anyway, there's not any such thing as 'in-combat' and 'out-of-combat' to the best of my knowledge, except in how they're being run. A 'round' in combat is '6 seconds' out of combat, but there's not any difference between them. Technically, the game is always counted in rounds, it's just not usually important except for... combat.
This is counter intuitive, but I love summoning a Cyclops then handing him a +2 thunderous tetsubo sized for him. Then let his auto critical kick in and have a 16d8 + 3d10 dice rolling bonanza.
Simply use a "dog" or "wolf" of "boar" or something resembling the badger, and say it is one? :P
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If you need combat, you could always attack the darkness.
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Simply use a "dog" or "wolf" of "boar" or something resembling the badger, and say it is one? :P
The likely reason was the badger was held back until the Bestiary 2 and they don't update the summoning lists. Which is sad. And exception for animals that didn't make the first Bestiary cut would be nice.