Did you just call me stupid ?
Don't. Ever, ever, ever. Call me stupid.
I didn't call anyone stupid! I was wondering if someone called me stupid. Stupid :)
I didn't call anyone stupid! I was wondering if someone called me stupid. Stupid :)
Sorry, it's from A Fish Called Wanda, I thought that was the reference you were going for.
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Just to clarify a couple of things I keep seeing:
Doing one smart thing doesn't make you smart. Nor does doing one dumb thing make you dumb.
Just because you played a character with a low Int score as if that character had a high Int score doesn't mean Intelliegence and intelligence aren't the same thing.
Knowing a lot of things doesn't mean you're intelligent. You might have tried really hard and/or had great teachers and know more than the intelligent person who doesn't apply himself but that doesn't make the word "Intelliegence" meaningless.
Skill points are not intelligence. Or, if they are, you are making the argument everyone in Pathfinder gets smarter by killing things.
Stats are the base. For them to be the base, they must have meaning. You can change the meaning to fit your concept but that doesn't remove the meaning from the game.
No I wasn't going for a fish called Wanda but now that you mention it that works too.
Piccolo said I had a psychological problem. I was wondering if that was a nice way of saying I'm stupid like I'm some kind of 7 int simpleton :)
Piccolo said I had a psychological problem. I was wondering if that was a nice way of saying I'm stupid like I'm some kind of 7 int simpleton :)
You're obviously one of those super smart Int 7 people who just can't express it well. :)
Thanks :)
I KNEW IT, I KNEW IT
I was just hiding my Smarts Behind my dumbness :)
How is that not every post in this thread! (Emoticon that denotes I'm joking)
I'm backing Rasmus on this one. The "dumb" int 7 bard is a long way from actually being dumb. This isn't a village idiot. With more levels the bard will only know more, and be able to pull out even more with bardic knowledge on the fly, and raise his current skills up and add some more.
To use a high level low int example, if the level 15 int 7 veteran speluker fighter (who has put a rank in dungeoneering every level) is conveying what he knows about dungeons and underground areas, he is quite the source of knowledge and really knows his stuff. He isn't daft when it comes to dungeons. He has learned their ins and outs mostly through experience but also through the knowledge and research side. His reasoning and recall on this is potentially excellent, depending on the rolls of the day.
Now imagine such a low int char being a rogue or bard. They are rolling in skills, knowledge and recall/question-answering potential. Yes, that's right, even thinking on their feet.
You're conflating Intelligence with Knowledge. They aren't the same thing, that's why Intelligence is a stat and Knowledge is split into individual skills. Someone with low intelligence can know a lot of things, someone with high intelligence can focus on few things. The difference is that someone with high intelligence finds it easier to learn new things than a person with low intelligence.
Even in real life there are plenty of examples of really smart people believing really dumb things (yes, I understand smart and dumb are subjective). Would you go to your doctor to fix your computer? Is your doctor smart? Would you go to your auto mechanic when you have stomach pains? Is your auto mechanic smart? Would you call a computer tech when your car dies? Is a computer tech smart? These are all knowledge skills.
How long would it take the doctor to learn to fix a computer? How long would it take your auto mechanic to diagnose health problems? How long would it take a computer tech to learn to fix a...
Latest one of these I've come across, a GP doctor tried to lecture a psychologist buddy of mine on psychology. He says it was like he had seen a few episodes of Dr Phil. My friend was intensely annoyed.
On intelligence like many subjects, we are stuck in a situation of constant argument. We have daily usage, historical-cultural understandings of intelligence, scientific classification, ego and experience crawling into this fox hole of agitated dead rat ghosts, bound by our prejudices and certainties in an eternal squabble.
A lot of us think we are pretty smart, so we have to come down on a character concept (bard, fighter or other) that has a low intelligence stat. Even though by the system, they aren't crippled, retarded or incapable of daring heroism, success at skills and demonstrating intelligence.
With levels and a lot of skills from high skill classes, a 7 int PF character is no longer mechanically dumb/daft/slow in knowledge or skills. They are not on penalties to making a smart call or using a tricky tactic or stratagem. They are not prevented from being a cunning or intelligent hero unless a dm says, you must make a high INT check to think. They are just on a -2 to int, and you can get away from that -2 to int skills pretty quick. The system even encourages it with the class skill bonus.
Thanks :)
I KNEW IT, I KNEW IT
I was just hiding my Smarts Behind my dumbness :)
7 int is not so low, that a character is incapable of demonstrating intelligence and smarts.
Just to clarify a couple of things I keep seeing:
Doing one smart thing doesn't make you smart. Nor does doing one dumb thing make you dumb.
Just because you played a character with a low Int score as if that character had a high Int score doesn't mean Intelliegence and intelligence aren't the same thing.
Knowing a lot of things doesn't mean you're intelligent. You might have tried really hard and/or had great teachers and know more than the intelligent person who doesn't apply himself but that doesn't make the word "Intelliegence" meaningless.
Skill points are not intelligence. Or, if they are, you are making the argument everyone in Pathfinder gets smarter by killing things.
Stats are the base. For them to be the base, they must have meaning. You can change the meaning to fit your concept but that doesn't remove the meaning from the game.
People are called smart for doing one thing well all the time. Same with dumb, you mess up, "you are dumb/stupid/useless/incompetent!"
Not you of course, but you get my popular daily usage meaning.
People are called smart for doing one thing well all the time. Same with dumb, you mess up, "you are dumb/stupid/useless/incompetent!"
Not you of course, but you get my popular daily usage meaning.
Just because you are called these things doesn't mean you are these things. If you are a low Int commoner who has maxed out a craft skill and took skill focus craft, then someone relying on you to craft might think you're a genius, but they would be wrong.
Yeah, and some cultures think you are a genius if you are a genius in a craft or art form. You've heard of artistic geniuses I am sure.
The definitions of smart, intelligence and genius are not static!
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Yeah, and some cultures think you are a genius if you are a genius in a craft or art form. You've heard of artistic geniuses I am sure.
I've heard that expression before, sure. It means talented, not smart.
A lower than average Intelligence score means your character has a lower than average intelligence.No it doesn't. I've played it differently once!
This is not a valid argument.
Just to make sure I get this right.
The definitions of smart, intelligence and genius are not static!
You're argument is words have no meaning?
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Of course a low intelligence character can show cunning. Cats show incredible cunning everyday, but they're less intelligent than humans. They don't make elaborate plans, though. They lack the needed level of intelligence.
Yes, a person of low intelligence can learn Int based skills, but the person of high intelligence does it casually. They aren't behind to begin with.
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Of course a low intelligence character can show cunning. Cats show incredible cunning everyday, but they're less intelligent than humans. They don't make elaborate plans, though. They lack the needed level of intelligence.
A cat has an INT of 2. You're suggesting that more than tripling that intelligence would make you less than a cat?
A lot of people say dogs are as smart as humans.. they also have an INT of 2.
Mechanically, you really just need an INT of 3 to achieve human intelligence levels. Now, if you want to RP a dullard, go right ahead, but you shouldn't force someone to adhere to a standard.
Calvos, the Bard from the NPC codex Bards has an int of 8, he's a street performer not a buffoon. He plays a wind instrument, but only speaks one language.
Yeah, and some cultures think you are a genius if you are a genius in a craft or art form. You've heard of artistic geniuses I am sure.I've heard that expression before, sure. It means talented, not smart.
And talent can be a demonstration of...?
Dedication, intelligence, learning and skills.
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Of course a low intelligence character can show cunning. Cats show incredible cunning everyday, but they're less intelligent than humans. They don't make elaborate plans, though. They lack the needed level of intelligence.A cat has an INT of 2. You're suggesting that more than tripling that intelligence would make you less than a cat?
A lot of people say dogs are as smart as humans.. they also have an INT of 2.
Mechanically, you really just need an INT of 3 to achieve human intelligence levels. Now, if you want to RP a dullard, go right ahead, but you shouldn't force someone to adhere to a standard.
Calvos, the Bard from the NPC codex Bards has an int of 8, he's a street performer not a buffoon. He plays a wind instrument, but only speaks one language.
Wow...try re-reading.
Cats can show cunning. Low Int humans can show cunning, too. I made that as a point. Incidentally, the smarter and more educated we get, the less animal cunning we possess, because it's no longer the survival trait it once was. That's a generalization, but the basic point holds true...and cunning is found throughout the animal world. Even insects can be cunning. Trap door spider, anybody?
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Yeah, and some cultures think you are a genius if you are a genius in a craft or art form. You've heard of artistic geniuses I am sure.I've heard that expression before, sure. It means talented, not smart.
And talent can be a demonstration of...?
Dedication, intelligence, learning and skills.
Any or all of the above. You betcha. It can also be an almost inexplicable inborn trait.
Yeah, and some cultures think you are a genius if you are a genius in a craft or art form. You've heard of artistic geniuses I am sure.I've heard that expression before, sure. It means talented, not smart.
And talent can be a demonstration of...?
Dedication, intelligence, learning and skills.
Yes it can be...
Look, you know this. Smart people can be talented. Talented people don't have to be smart.
But through real mastery and expertise (which is easy in PF) we can see the demonstration of intelligence, learning and reasoning. If you've got the skills for the job or task at hand, and you go through it smooth demonstrating real ability, you are not stupid/dumb/daft/retarded/slow or idiotic.
The low int bard is not dumb, at least not judging by skills, body of knowledge or recall (skill + bardic knowledge) or speed of reaction (initiative). He isn't in a stupor unless he fails some sort of will save.
The low int fighter with some levels really knows combat, the ins and the outs, the parries and the thrusts, how to kill people, monsters, how to take a dungeon and what you will need. He can be quite good at a few professions (broadening him as a human being and allowing him to do more than just fight and drink potions), or he is into some knowledges like dungeons and engineering. Allowing him to make checks regarding encounters, what is likely ahead in a dungeon, common dungeon monsters, ooze and aberration knowledge, as well as details on defences and fortifications via engineering.
His low int does not slow him down here, he can still make the checks as fast as anyone else. This doesn't strike me as a really dumb character.
Official low int fighter spokesperson, out.
Yeah, and some cultures think you are a genius if you are a genius in a craft or art form. You've heard of artistic geniuses I am sure.I've heard that expression before, sure. It means talented, not smart.
And talent can be a demonstration of...?
Dedication, intelligence, learning and skills.
Yes it can be...
Look, you know this. Smart people can be talented. Talented people don't have to be smart.
The talented are really smart in their area, and we all specialise to a degree. Low int means you can't specialise in a lot, but you can still be talented. The mechanics allow it.
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But through real mastery and expertise (which is easy in PF) we can see the demonstration of intelligence, learning and reasoning. If you've got the skills for the job or task at hand, and you go through it smooth demonstrating real ability, you are not stupid/dumb/daft/retarded/slow or idiotic.
The low int bard is not dumb, at least not judging by skills, body of knowledge or recall (skill + bardic knowledge) or speed of reaction (initiative). He isn't in a stupor unless he fails some sort of will save.
The low int fighter with some levels really knows combat, the ins and the outs, the parries and the thrusts, how to kill people, monsters, how to take a dungeon and what you will need. He can be quite good at a few professions (broadening him as a human being and allowing him to do more than just fight and drink potions), or he is into some knowledges like dungeons and engineering. Allowing him to make checks regarding encounters, what is likely ahead in a dungeon, common dungeon monsters, ooze and aberration knowledge, as well as details on defences and fortifications via engineering.
His low int does not slow him down here, he can still make the checks as fast as anyone else. This doesn't strike me as a really dumb character.
Official low int fighter spokesperson, out.
7 isn't as dumb as a rock. They can be skilled...just not quickly...when you compare them with a smart person...or average, for that matter. They prove to still be the same 7 Int every time it's an Int skill they don't have.
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But the low Int character is not going to be quite as good at an Int-based skill as someone with a high Int, all other things equal (ranks, class skill, skill focus). And like you said, 3.5 Loyalist, they are forced to specialize or else learn shallowly - they have fewer ranks to spread around than a high-int character (all else equal).
EDIT: And like Elgin just said, they're going to be less good at answering "general knowledge" questions in untrained areas than the untrained high-int character.
These are the sort of people you might describe as making up for modest intelligence with dedication, or being not too bright in general but great painters/dancers/auto mechanics. Maybe even "idiot savant," though that's hard to represent in PF since there's no "Int 7 unless it's a Craft(Paint) check, in which case Int 14" mechanic.
I will leave it to you to determine how INT 7 should be played, but you could role play WIS 7 CHA 7 as a person who will spend 8 pages arguing what INT 7 means. I.E. Highly annoying and does not realize that they are changing no one's mind with their arguments. LOL
Some people enjoy debate for the sake of debate, whether or not they are changing anyone's mind. I find it helps me to better understand my own position. If you find the debate annoying, you don't have to participate.
EDIT: There are numerous, game-mechanical drawbacks that a 7/7/7 character will face during play, and the player will have to roleplay those drawbacks because they are actual, numerical penalties that affect the outcomes of actions taken in-game. I can see no reason whatsoever to impose arbitrary roleplaying restrictions that aren't already accounted for by those obvious, numerical penalties the character suffers when attempting actions related to mental ability scores.
Some consider it unrealistic for a 7/7/7 character to constantly come up with complex plans and insightful ideas, or speak like an Oxford professor, even if they don't actually succeed at their skill checks.
You have never called someone intelligent because they demonstrated their skills, learning or knowledge? Ooookay.Well, this is one of the areas where the technical language of psychology and the common language of ordinary English differ somewhat. But the idea that someone can be knowledgeable without being a particularly quick study isn't -- or shouldn't be -- that controversial.
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In the Pathfinder system, aptitude is represented by the intelligence stat; skills, experience, and training by skill ranks and by class features.
This is about my only firm line on intelligence. Other than that I think that the system is general enough to allow a number of interpretations.
Want to play an Int 7 character as generally unintelligent or ditzy? Sure.
A slow but steady thinker who needs to take things out step-by-step, possibly with the help of a pencil and paper? Sure.
Has a good memory for facts but can't draw a conclusion to save his life (like that bard who knows that oozes resist mind-affecting spells but still tries Daze or Sleep)? Sure.
But you really shouldn't play an Int 7 character the same way you'd play an Int 13-14 character, and you definitely shouldn't play an Int 7 the same way you'd play an Int 18. Personally I've never seen anyone try to do that - if anything my group tends to overplay low Int(/Wis/Cha). And I wouldn't chase you away from my table with a baseball bat just because I personally don't like your RP. But if I were GM I'd be more likely to call for those knowledge and diplomacy checks rather than hand-wave them.
But through real mastery and expertise (which is easy in PF) we can see the demonstration of intelligence, learning and reasoning. If you've got the skills for the job or task at hand, and you go through it smooth demonstrating real ability, you are not stupid/dumb/daft/retarded/slow or idiotic.
The low int bard is not dumb, at least not judging by skills, body of knowledge or recall (skill + bardic knowledge) or speed of reaction (initiative). He isn't in a stupor unless he fails some sort of will save.
The low int fighter with some levels really knows combat, the ins and the outs, the parries and the thrusts, how to kill people, monsters, how to take a dungeon and what you will need. He can be quite good at a few professions (broadening him as a human being and allowing him to do more than just fight and drink potions), or he is into some knowledges like dungeons and engineering. Allowing him to make checks regarding encounters, what is likely ahead in a dungeon, common dungeon monsters, ooze and aberration knowledge, as well as details on defences and fortifications via engineering.
His low int does not slow him down here, he can still make the checks as fast as anyone else. This doesn't strike me as a really dumb character.
Official low int fighter spokesperson, out.
We can leave it with this if you want but you are now arguing levels equal intelligence. Your Int 3 fighter with barely human intelligence is "smarter" than my Int 20 wizard because you're level 20 and I'm level 1? So words, numbers...meaningless?
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7 isn't as dumb as a rock. They can be skilled...just not quickly...when you compare them with a smart person...or average, for that matter. They prove to still be the same 7 Int every time it's an Int skill they don't have.But through real mastery and expertise (which is easy in PF) we can see the demonstration of intelligence, learning and reasoning. If you've got the skills for the job or task at hand, and you go through it smooth demonstrating real ability, you are not stupid/dumb/daft/retarded/slow or idiotic.
The low int bard is not dumb, at least not judging by skills, body of knowledge or recall (skill + bardic knowledge) or speed of reaction (initiative). He isn't in a stupor unless he fails some sort of will save.
The low int fighter with some levels really knows combat, the ins and the outs, the parries and the thrusts, how to kill people, monsters, how to take a dungeon and what you will need. He can be quite good at a few professions (broadening him as a human being and allowing him to do more than just fight and drink potions), or he is into some knowledges like dungeons and engineering. Allowing him to make checks regarding encounters, what is likely ahead in a dungeon, common dungeon monsters, ooze and aberration knowledge, as well as details on defences and fortifications via engineering.
His low int does not slow him down here, he can still make the checks as fast as anyone else. This doesn't strike me as a really dumb character.
Official low int fighter spokesperson, out.
What do you mean quickly? They level and rank up just like every other character. There is no special delay that you can't put your earned ranks in your skill because you have a 7 int. Knowledge int skills are trained only, int doesn't matter if you don't have the ranks. Also, if a knowledge skill is a taken class skill with ranks thrown in, they will never be on -2 at 7 int because of the class skill bonus (3.0 was far less forgiving).
Don't forget the unpredictable nature of the d20 as well. Where a roll of 15+4 is better than a roll of 7+10. I have been at times shocked how badly all the knowledge wizards can roll.
Behind a little bit on some numbers doesn't mean dumb or without a capacity for intelligence and problem-solving (especially in the example of the low int bard, or rogue or a fighter in a dungeon).
We can leave it with this if you want but you are now arguing levels equal intelligence. Your Int 3 fighter with barely human intelligence is "smarter" than my Int 20 wizard because you're level 20 and I'm level 1? So words, numbers...meaningless?But through real mastery and expertise (which is easy in PF) we can see the demonstration of intelligence, learning and reasoning. If you've got the skills for the job or task at hand, and you go through it smooth demonstrating real ability, you are not stupid/dumb/daft/retarded/slow or idiotic.
The low int bard is not dumb, at least not judging by skills, body of knowledge or recall (skill + bardic knowledge) or speed of reaction (initiative). He isn't in a stupor unless he fails some sort of will save.
The low int fighter with some levels really knows combat, the ins and the outs, the parries and the thrusts, how to kill people, monsters, how to take a dungeon and what you will need. He can be quite good at a few professions (broadening him as a human being and allowing him to do more than just fight and drink potions), or he is into some knowledges like dungeons and engineering. Allowing him to make checks regarding encounters, what is likely ahead in a dungeon, common dungeon monsters, ooze and aberration knowledge, as well as details on defences and fortifications via engineering.
His low int does not slow him down here, he can still make the checks as fast as anyone else. This doesn't strike me as a really dumb character.
Official low int fighter spokesperson, out.
Well levels give you more ranks to put in areas of learning for later recall, more skills to broaden your skill base, or allow increasing specialisation.
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Behind a little bit on some numbers doesn't mean dumb or without a capacity for intelligence and problem-solving (especially in the example of the low int bard, or rogue or a fighter in a dungeon).
Yeah, I've been down this road before on these forums. I should have left that Paladin thread when behavior didn't affect your alignment. I'm not sticking around now that "being a little dumber" doesn't mean "you're a little dumber." I'm sorry if I hurt your imaginary fighters feelings.
(That last line may be a bit too much. I never know what "jokes" are acceptable here.)
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Well levels give you more ranks to put in areas of learning for later recall, more skills to broaden your skill base, or allow increasing specialisation.We can leave it with this if you want but you are now arguing levels equal intelligence. Your Int 3 fighter with barely human intelligence is "smarter" than my Int 20 wizard because you're level 20 and I'm level 1? So words, numbers...meaningless?But through real mastery and expertise (which is easy in PF) we can see the demonstration of intelligence, learning and reasoning. If you've got the skills for the job or task at hand, and you go through it smooth demonstrating real ability, you are not stupid/dumb/daft/retarded/slow or idiotic.
The low int bard is not dumb, at least not judging by skills, body of knowledge or recall (skill + bardic knowledge) or speed of reaction (initiative). He isn't in a stupor unless he fails some sort of will save.
The low int fighter with some levels really knows combat, the ins and the outs, the parries and the thrusts, how to kill people, monsters, how to take a dungeon and what you will need. He can be quite good at a few professions (broadening him as a human being and allowing him to do more than just fight and drink potions), or he is into some knowledges like dungeons and engineering. Allowing him to make checks regarding encounters, what is likely ahead in a dungeon, common dungeon monsters, ooze and aberration knowledge, as well as details on defences and fortifications via engineering.
His low int does not slow him down here, he can still make the checks as fast as anyone else. This doesn't strike me as a really dumb character.
Official low int fighter spokesperson, out.
I'm starting to wonder if I'm debating a 7 Int.
2 characters, same class, same everything else, one with a 7 Int, one with a 14. At first level, the same Int skill, non-class...the 7 Int has a -1 in it. The 14 has a +3. The 7 is behind. Guess what? He'll 'catch up', assuming he has max points in it...to the 14 Int's 1st level ability at 5th level. Yes, He. Is. Slower.
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Just to make sure I get this right.
You're argument is words have no meaning?
The definitions of smart, intelligence and genius are not static!
No his argument is that the definitions of words are not static.
They change over time.
Unfortunately, this probably means that in the future "you're" will cease to mean "you are" and WILL actually be synonymous with "your", as so many people seem to think is already the case.
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Just to make sure I get this right.
You're argument is words have no meaning?
The definitions of smart, intelligence and genius are not static!
No his argument is that the definitions of words are not static.
They change over time.
Unfortunately, this probably means that in the future "you're" will cease to mean "you are" and WILL actually be synonymous with "your", as so many people seem to think is already the case.
...for the 7 Int crowd, that is.
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As for how to model an idiot savant, that's actually not too hard. Most PCs won't want to do it, but it works really well for NPCs, and I've done it before.
Give the NPC Skill Focus (Skill), and call it a 'natural talent' for the skill. Skill Focus can represent all sorts of things.
If they have more than one feat, you can tap on a secondary feat if possible.
Traits work really well for this too, giving a trait bonus to a specific skill.
Just to make sure I get this right.
You're argument is words have no meaning?
The definitions of smart, intelligence and genius are not static!
No his argument is that the definitions of words are not static.
They change over time.
Unfortunately, this probably means that in the future "you're" will cease to mean "you are" and WILL actually be synonymous with "your", as so many people seem to think is already the case.
Yeah we'll your bald!
Yeah we'll your bald!
*Collapses from the pain this sentence causes him*
Especially since I'm very far from bald and wished my hair grew a bit slower.
Well levels give you more ranks to put in areas of learning for later recall, more skills to broaden your skill base, or allow increasing specialisation.We can leave it with this if you want but you are now arguing levels equal intelligence. Your Int 3 fighter with barely human intelligence is "smarter" than my Int 20 wizard because you're level 20 and I'm level 1? So words, numbers...meaningless?But through real mastery and expertise (which is easy in PF) we can see the demonstration of intelligence, learning and reasoning. If you've got the skills for the job or task at hand, and you go through it smooth demonstrating real ability, you are not stupid/dumb/daft/retarded/slow or idiotic.
The low int bard is not dumb, at least not judging by skills, body of knowledge or recall (skill + bardic knowledge) or speed of reaction (initiative). He isn't in a stupor unless he fails some sort of will save.
The low int fighter with some levels really knows combat, the ins and the outs, the parries and the thrusts, how to kill people, monsters, how to take a dungeon and what you will need. He can be quite good at a few professions (broadening him as a human being and allowing him to do more than just fight and drink potions), or he is into some knowledges like dungeons and engineering. Allowing him to make checks regarding encounters, what is likely ahead in a dungeon, common dungeon monsters, ooze and aberration knowledge, as well as details on defences and fortifications via engineering.
His low int does not slow him down here, he can still make the checks as fast as anyone else. This doesn't strike me as a really dumb character.
Official low int fighter spokesperson, out.
I'm starting to wonder if I'm debating a 7 Int.
2 characters, same class, same everything else, one with a 7 Int, one with a 14. At first level, the same Int skill, non-class...the 7 Int has a -1 in it. The 14 has a +3....
Don't forget that in the game, initiative determines how slow someone is. Your knowledge and how well you roll, determines what your char can recall and use right then and there.
One doesn't have 7 int just because they disagree with you.
The problem with the int ability score, is that a lot of what involves intelligence IRL: knowing, reasoning, mental action, mental capabilities is not actually under intelligence, but veers into wis, cha or initiative. Or is only influenced partially by it (skills). The d20 is also more powerful and influential than the ability score modifier (e.g. high int spellcasters with a lot of ranks failing knowledge checks due to bad rolls).
Dumb? Smart? It comes to the die and whether your character knows their stuff in the required area. For INT checks it can get even more amusing, when a high int char fails a DC 15 or 20 int check (because he is only batting on a +4).
I remember an average int character of mine, who because his skills were perfectly suited to what was being done seemed far more intelligent than the spellcasters over multiple games (they were relying on their spells, not skills and not doing roleplaying through dialogue). In that case, I was really milking profession checks to get ahead. The int 10 guy dwarfed the sage-mages.
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I think we have a terminology issue here. May I propose that:
A character with 7 Int is unintelligent (below-average intelligence).
A character with a skill modifier of +10 is skilled (high skill modifier).
A character with 7 Int and a skill modifier of +10 is "unintelligent, but skilled."
I think 3.5 Loyalist's position is that when interacting with a character who has 7 Int but +10 in a skill, the fact that they are "skilled" is more important than the fact that they are "unintelligent." You don't care what your mechanic's IQ is so long as he's a good mechanic.
I agree with this position.
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Agreed, Weirdo.
People keep conflating skilled with smart, which is not the case. Someone who is smart is more likely to be highly skilled, but even someone with below average intelligence, or even borderline intelligence, can be skilled at something (idiot savants).
Too many people equate skilled with smart, which is not really the case.
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Behind a little bit on some numbers doesn't mean dumb or without a capacity for intelligence and problem-solving (especially in the example of the low int bard, or rogue or a fighter in a dungeon).Yeah, I've been down this road before on these forums. I should have left that Paladin thread when behavior didn't affect your alignment. I'm not sticking around now that "being a little dumber" doesn't mean "you're a little dumber." I'm sorry if I hurt your imaginary fighters feelings.
(That last line may be a bit too much. I never know what "jokes" are acceptable here.)
I stopped posting on this thread when I realised that no matter how clearly I tried to explain my position (I.e. the crazy assertion that Intelligence = intelligence), it would be completely (and deliberately?) misinterpreted and twisted around.
Best move eva.
Oh wait, I just posted here again... D'oh! Fell for it!
An int 7 likely starts out with relatively few skills, and usually have a very low chance of succeeding in any field where intelligence applies due to his low score. But as he levels up, he can learn to overcome his shortcomings with skills, feats and magical items.
A cha 7 starts out with relatively few friends, and usually have a very low chance of influencing others due to his low score. But as he affects the world around him, he can earn true and loyal friends because saving someones life counts for more than being "a pretty cool dude".
As long as you do not argue those two, I have no problem with you portraying people however socially or intellectually backwards you want.
The quest to be a pretty cool dude.
I like it.
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I think we have a terminology issue here. May I propose that:
A character with 7 Int is unintelligent (below-average intelligence).
A character with a skill modifier of +10 is skilled (high skill modifier).
A character with 7 Int and a skill modifier of +10 is "unintelligent, but skilled."I think 3.5 Loyalist's position is that when interacting with a character who has 7 Int but +10 in a skill, the fact that they are "skilled" is more important than the fact that they are "unintelligent." You don't care what your mechanic's IQ is so long as he's a good mechanic.
I agree with this position.
Never did have a problem with that.
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...Well levels give you more ranks to put in areas of learning for later recall, more skills to broaden your skill base, or allow increasing specialisation.We can leave it with this if you want but you are now arguing levels equal intelligence. Your Int 3 fighter with barely human intelligence is "smarter" than my Int 20 wizard because you're level 20 and I'm level 1? So words, numbers...meaningless?But through real mastery and expertise (which is easy in PF) we can see the demonstration of intelligence, learning and reasoning. If you've got the skills for the job or task at hand, and you go through it smooth demonstrating real ability, you are not stupid/dumb/daft/retarded/slow or idiotic.
The low int bard is not dumb, at least not judging by skills, body of knowledge or recall (skill + bardic knowledge) or speed of reaction (initiative). He isn't in a stupor unless he fails some sort of will save.
The low int fighter with some levels really knows combat, the ins and the outs, the parries and the thrusts, how to kill people, monsters, how to take a dungeon and what you will need. He can be quite good at a few professions (broadening him as a human being and allowing him to do more than just fight and drink potions), or he is into some knowledges like dungeons and engineering. Allowing him to make checks regarding encounters, what is likely ahead in a dungeon, common dungeon monsters, ooze and aberration knowledge, as well as details on defences and fortifications via engineering.
His low int does not slow him down here, he can still make the checks as fast as anyone else. This doesn't strike me as a really dumb character.
Official low int fighter spokesperson, out.
I'm starting to wonder if I'm debating a 7 Int.
2 characters, same class, same everything else, one with a 7 Int, one with a 14. At first level, the same Int skill, non-class...the 7 Int has a -1
You do understand that there are multiple meanings for the word slow, don't you?
Level 1, int 7, knowledge skill with skill focus -2+1+3+4 +6
Level 1 genius with 1 rank in a knowledge, no skill focus 4+1+3 +8
Level 3, the int 7 can match the level 1 18 int genius with but a single feat.
That level 3 is pretty dumb! Lol :''D
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Behind a little bit on some numbers doesn't mean dumb or without a capacity for intelligence and problem-solving (especially in the example of the low int bard, or rogue or a fighter in a dungeon).Yeah, I've been down this road before on these forums. I should have left that Paladin thread when behavior didn't affect your alignment. I'm not sticking around now that "being a little dumber" doesn't mean "you're a little dumber." I'm sorry if I hurt your imaginary fighters feelings.
(That last line may be a bit too much. I never know what "jokes" are acceptable here.)
I stopped posting on this thread when I realised that no matter how clearly I tried to explain my position (I.e. the crazy assertion that Intelligence = intelligence), it would be completely (and deliberately?) misinterpreted and twisted around.
Best move eva.
Oh wait, I just posted here again... D'oh! Fell for it!
I hear you. I'm next. I'm being beaten by ignorance...I'm just not that experienced at it.