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You could just as well play a "really dumb" character if that's what you feel works for you, though. Maybe his social skills leave something to be desired, and people think he's "dumb" simply because of that.
That's one good way to interpret it. I like it, though I did wish to offer another possibility; triangulating based on known NPCs. The Bestiary lists offer details on a variety of creatures at several different Intelligence scores, and we can expand upon that by then checking their Wis, Cha, and Alignment.
Int 1 or 2 is Animal intelligence. Only the most extraordinary among them have a capacity for what we'd vaguely accept as 'culture.' They know fighting tactics, footwork, timing... but not much else outside of said hunting and cooperation. Any intelligence expressed beyond that tends to be induced by domestication (a dog saving a kid from a house-fire because it recognizes the kid as family, for example).
Int 4 is where we find most of the Elementals. They have a capacity for language, but operate primarily in simple ideas relevant to the concepts they embody (usually "power", "respects power", and "wants to spread a concept related to the element they represent"). They're simultaneously children and unswerving zealots insofar as we understand their thought process. Getting them to think outside their box is really hard and requires very precise use of their language.
Int 6 is Lantern Archons, which are described as friendly showing some understanding of society, cause-effect, and so on. They display hobbies (changing their light in sync with music nearby), make requests of adventurers that fit a philosophy (for example, their Planar Binding/Ally process involves them asking the PCs to do a week of charity work or donate 100 GP to a Good-aligned church... it knows full well this request advances Good agendas), and show bravery in their fight against Evil. Lantern Archons are probably child intelligence too, but at the higher end of it; any smarter and they could more or less pass for a human teen (albeit one with obvious zealotry for building an orderly yet benevolent society) if you were only hearing their speech.
Int 10 is average human. This bears no further elaboration.
Alignment can also influence how a creature expresses their Intelligence, too. The Lantern Archon example is an obvious one, and I used it to scale how my Int 8, Wis 7, Cha 15 Paladin would behave. Using the 'NPC triangulation' method mentioned above I surmised that they're slightly dull-witted and they latch onto weird ideas at times... but they can hold normal conversations just fine provided you don't get scholarly on them. With the Archons and other usually/always LG creatures to compare to, it wasn't hard to extrapolate mental stats of 8/7/15 to mean something like "A bit of an airhead, but this Paladin functions just fine in normal society on a day to day basis. Despite being slightly dumb, they are openly and inspiringly sincere in their love of said society. This goes a long way in smoothing over any problems caused by occasionally asking stupid questions."
To Demonic, social skills are covered by charisma. Wit, charm, saying the right thing, charisma governs that, not int.
Okay, I make a gnome fighter with a Str of 6. I "role play" him as really strong but really lazy. He has weapon finesse so his attack is fine. Is he strong? Or is he weaker than average?Heresy Time!
As smart as you want. There's no rules for roleplay, regardless of one's stats. Since all of the stats, save perhaps strength, are aggregate scores comprised of multiple, disparate, abstract and frequently undefinable qualities, you can RP however you like. The actual effects of the stat will show up on your die rolls.
You could be absolutely brilliant, but have memory issues, which is why you tend to fail Knowledge checks. Or perhaps you never got much education. Lots of ways to dress it up.
Ultimately, you are only 10% less likely to succeed at a task as someone with a 10 INT, all other things being equal. That's not a huge margin.
*points to 'save perhaps Strength'*
That's the only attribute that is quantifiable. You can't 'roleplay' Strength.
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You could just as well play a "really dumb" character if that's what you feel works for you, though. Maybe his social skills leave something to be desired, and people think he's "dumb" simply because of that.That's one good way to interpret it. I like it, though I did wish to offer another possibility; triangulating based on known NPCs. The Bestiary lists offer details on a variety of creatures at several different Intelligence scores, and we can expand upon that by then checking their Wis, Cha, and Alignment.
Int 1 or 2 is Animal intelligence. Only the most extraordinary among them have a capacity for what we'd vaguely accept as 'culture.' They know fighting tactics, footwork, timing... but not much else outside of said hunting and cooperation. Any intelligence expressed beyond that tends to be induced by domestication (a dog saving a kid from a house-fire because it recognizes the kid as family, for example).
Int 4 is where we find most of the Elementals. They have a capacity for language, but operate primarily in simple ideas relevant to the concepts they embody (usually "power", "respects power", and "wants to spread a concept related to the element they represent"). They're simultaneously children and unswerving zealots insofar as we understand their thought process. Getting them to think outside their box is really hard and requires very precise use of their language.
Int 6 is Lantern Archons, which are described as friendly showing some understanding of society, cause-effect, and so on. They display hobbies (changing their light in sync with music nearby), make requests of adventurers that fit a philosophy (for example, their Planar Binding/Ally process involves them asking the PCs to do a week of charity work or donate 100 GP to a Good-aligned church... it knows full well this request advances Good agendas), and show bravery in their fight against Evil. Lantern Archons are probably child intelligence too, but at the higher end of it; any smarter and they could...
Excellent post. :)
You could just as well play a "really dumb" character if that's what you feel works for you, though. Maybe his social skills leave something to be desired, and people think he's "dumb" simply because of that.That's one good way to interpret it. I like it, though I did wish to offer another possibility; triangulating based on known NPCs. The Bestiary lists offer details on a variety of creatures at several different Intelligence scores, and we can expand upon that by then checking their Wis, Cha, and Alignment.
Int 1 or 2 is Animal intelligence. Only the most extraordinary among them have a capacity for what we'd vaguely accept as 'culture.' They know fighting tactics, footwork, timing... but not much else outside of said hunting and cooperation. Any intelligence expressed beyond that tends to be induced by domestication (a dog saving a kid from a house-fire because it recognizes the kid as family, for example).
Int 4 is where we find most of the Elementals. They have a capacity for language, but operate primarily in simple ideas relevant to the concepts they embody (usually "power", "respects power", and "wants to spread a concept related to the element they represent"). They're simultaneously children and unswerving zealots insofar as we understand their thought process. Getting them to think outside their box is really hard and requires very precise use of their language.
Int 6 is Lantern Archons, which are described as friendly showing some understanding of society, cause-effect, and so on. They display hobbies (changing their light in sync with music nearby), make requests of adventurers that fit a philosophy (for example, their Planar Binding/Ally process involves them asking the PCs to do a week of charity work or donate 100 GP to a Good-aligned church... it knows full well this request advances Good agendas), and show bravery in their fight against Evil. Lantern Archons are probably child intelligence too, but at the higher end of it; any smarter and they could...
I like your pally.
In my little homebrew setting, I've placed a series of Lizardfolk city states. Oratory, rhetoric, philosophy and general knowledge of the world are valued very highly. Each city state competes with the other for the leading philosophy, and they have their own pantheon of great thinkers (which every thinker wants to join). It is the Greek city states, combined with the Mayans, combined with academic university culture.
In this society, if you can not or do not play ball according to the great game of debate, you are considered very dumb, and just a follower or worse, an unthinking rebel. This culture judges intelligence by a few skills, and winning debates in public and private--the public demonstration of your intelligence and learning. If you can demonstrate your reason, learning and your ability to persuade, you are intelligent here. I think that can credibly apply beyond this setting. Low int with some know how (knowledge) but a great charisma or diplomacy, can prove a dangerous opponent to a high int low charisma character, which has trouble speaking, persuading, the essence of communicating.
A low int char, with some knowledge skills, perhaps a skill focus or two (or just be a bard or rogue) and a decent wis or charisma, can demonstrate intelligence. Using what you've got is a good indicator of intelligence in a social context. Specialise in charisma skills, and you can make people fools (also applies to a low int, high charisma sorcerer with enchantment spells out the wazoo).
Having a bunch of knowledge skills demonstrates learning, but you can always botch a check, or lose to someone rolling on a smaller bonus to their roll. If the other mental stats are there to help, if you can communicate and persuade, that is also a demonstration of intelligence and mental aptitude. A low int char doesn't have to be a retard, you can do a lot according to the rules of the game. If you don't have many skills, if that is a problem, you can buy more skills with feats. I've done it for an average or low int character (hmm, I've made the build I want, I've got a free feat, I could use some skills).
Okay, I make a gnome fighter with a Str of 6. I "role play" him as really strong but really lazy. He has weapon finesse so his attack is fine. Is he strong? Or is he weaker than average?Heresy Time!
As smart as you want. There's no rules for roleplay, regardless of one's stats. Since all of the stats, save perhaps strength, are aggregate scores comprised of multiple, disparate, abstract and frequently undefinable qualities, you can RP however you like. The actual effects of the stat will show up on your die rolls.
You could be absolutely brilliant, but have memory issues, which is why you tend to fail Knowledge checks. Or perhaps you never got much education. Lots of ways to dress it up.
Ultimately, you are only 10% less likely to succeed at a task as someone with a 10 INT, all other things being equal. That's not a huge margin.
*points to 'save perhaps Strength'*
That's the only attribute that is quantifiable. You can't 'roleplay' Strength.
Finesse? I am imagining a fat lazy duellist now. We had one like that in a game, he was called Fatimiro.
Knowing how to use momentum and training can really impact on strength. A fat guy that can't effectively use his weight is weak, a tiny kickboxer half his size will probably not be weak. You can make a point on decadent useless urbans and tough rurals/border people/tribesmen. Yes, he looks to weigh about half of what you do, and hits like a truck (halfling barbarian).
You can roleplay str, by emphasising through roleplaying, how weak or strong your character is. E.g. in down time they chop wooden dummies apart to practice their cuts. The dummies never had a chance...
If a low str, he leaves heavy doors open, because he is limp-wristed and has trouble with them. Strained by carrying a few books, doesn't like heavy weapons, thinks they are crude and hard to use.
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In my little homebrew setting, I've placed a series of Lizardfolk city states. Oratory, rhetoric, philosophy and general knowledge of the world are valued very highly. Each city state competes with the other for the leading philosophy, and they have their own pantheon of great thinkers (which every thinker wants to join). It is the Greek city states, combined with the Mayans, combined with academic university culture.
In this society, if you can not or do not play ball according to the great game of debate, you are considered very dumb, and just a follower or worse, an unthinking rebel. This culture judges intelligence by a few skills, and winning debates in public and private--the public demonstration of your intelligence and learning. If you can demonstrate your reason, learning and your ability to persuade, you are intelligent here. I think that can credibly apply beyond this setting. Low int with some know how (knowledge) but a great charisma or diplomacy, can prove a dangerous opponent to a high int low charisma character, which has trouble speaking, persuading, the essence of communicating.
A low int char, with some knowledge skills, perhaps a skill focus or two (or just be a bard or rogue) and a decent wis or charisma, can demonstrate intelligence. Using what you've got is a good indicator of intelligence in a social context. Specialise in charisma skills, and you can make people fools (also applies to a low int, high charisma sorcerer with enchantment spells out the wazoo).
Having a bunch of knowledge skills demonstrates learning, but you can always botch a check, or lose to someone rolling on a smaller bonus to their roll. If the other mental stats are there to help, if you can communicate and persuade, that is also a demonstration of intelligence and mental aptitude. A low int char doesn't have to be a retard, you can do a lot according to the rules of the game. If you don't have many skills, if that is a problem, you can buy more skills with feats. I've done it for an average or low int character (hmm, I've made the build I want, I've got a free feat, I could use some skills).
That seems like a lot to justify seven not being lower than ten.
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Here s my advice:
Do NOT roleplay statistics ever.
Seriously it is terrible, just roleplay your character as you wish, in order to fit the flavor you want.
You could roleplay a genius autistic wizard with 20 int who can barely make a full sentence if you wish.
Statistics are just mechanics do not let let you character interpretation be hindered by them.
Your 20 strength high elves does not need to look like a body builder
Your 20 constitution halfling does not need to be fat or something
Your 5 dexterity sorcerer should be able to pour himself a cup of tea just fine
Your 5 wisdom barbarian does not need to charge head first into everything
When those score needs to be challenged there are rules written for this, outside of those situation, just interpret your character as you wish.
It is alright, trust me.
I get it, but the whole enterprise is fundamentally flawed. It assumes that a score of 18 was supposed to represent a fair swath of the real world population, or part of the average. It doesn't. It's supposed to be something beyond exceptional, something superheroic, representing a percentage of a fantasy world population. The math is simply wrong because the basic premise of what the numbers...And this quote is from...?Int 7 can function just fine!
INT IQ
5 75
6 80
7 85
8 90
9 95
10 100
11 105
12 110
13 115
14 120
15 125
16 131
17 139
18+ 140+I stole this particular table from Piccolo, who is a psychiatrist, I believe.
I've seen similar tables a few times on these boards; I've seen Int 5 being IQ 68 in one, 73 in another and 75 in this one.
The principle behind each table is the same. The IQ score is based on a model of the actual distribution of intelligence (as measured a certain way) throughout the population. The intelligence statistic in D&D/PF is based on a bell-shaped probability curve.
It is relatively easy to correlate the different IQ scores with different 3d6 scores. We must assume that the 3d6 distribution matches the distribution of each score (Str, Dex, etc.) in the population. A score of 18 is possessed by one in 316 of the population, a score of 3 is also possessed by one in 316 of the population.
Matching these probabilities with the IQ probabilities is not that difficult. An intelligence score of 5 or less is possessed by six out of 316 of the population, which is one in 36. Simply check out the IQ charts and see where the line is drawn for the lowest 2.8% of the population!
BTW, the 'standard array' of stats does not represent the population! The idea that a score of less than 8 is impossible (on the grounds that the 'standard array' is 15/14/13/12/10/8) is as absurd as saying that there is no such score as a 9.
What? So a guy who can lift 300 lbs over his head is "Superheroic" ???
Olympic weight lifters would be in the range of 20-23 STR. Are these people "superheroic" ???
What? So a guy who can lift 300 lbs over his head is "Superheroic" ???
Olympic weight lifters would be in the range of 20-23 STR. Are these people "superheroic" ???
20 Str is actually 400 pounds.
800 lbs of just lift.
A complete ton of pushing or pulling.
And can carry 133 pounds as if it were nothing.
That's pretty heroic.
The world record (not the average, mind you) for a Clean and Jerk ("lift over head" closest equivalent I could find) is a 581 lb. lift.
And that's a single lift. Whereas the 20 Str character can do that 400 all day long if he wants to.
What? So a guy who can lift 300 lbs over his head is "Superheroic" ???
Olympic weight lifters would be in the range of 20-23 STR. Are these people "superheroic" ???
20 Str is actually 400 pounds.
800 lbs of just lift.
A complete ton of pushing or pulling.
And can carry 133 pounds as if it were nothing.
That's pretty heroic.
The world record (not the average, mind you) for a Clean and Jerk ("lift over head" closest equivalent I could find) is a 581 lb. lift.
And that's a single lift. Whereas the 20 Str character can do that 400 all day long if he wants to.
18 STR is 300 lbs. Not exactly "superheroic"
I have no idea why you're bringing up 20 STR since we were talking about whether or not 18 STR was superheroic.
Super-: a prefix occurring originally in loanwords from Latin, with the basic meaning “above, beyond.”
So 18 STR is "beyond" heroic, supposedly according to the post I quoted.
Can a 20 STR character lift 500 lbs over his head without magic by RAW?
No, because the game doesn't account for bursts of adrenaline and using up all your energy in one shot. I don't think anyone has said that in-game stats are perfect representations of everything IRL.
Still, what's your point? Which is more superheroic: Being able to lift 300 pounds over your head like it's routine, and not even being out of breath from it, or lifting nearly 600, once, and being dead tired afterward?
I have no idea why you're bringing up 20 STR since we were talking about whether or not 18 STR was superheroic.
Olympic weight lifters would be in the range of 20-23 STR. Are these people "superheroic" ???
It's your own post, try to remember what you've wrote.
No, because the game doesn't account for bursts of adrenaline and using up all your energy in one shot. I don't think anyone has said that in-game stats are perfect representations of everything IRL.
Still, what's your point? Which is more superheroic: Being able to lift 300 pounds over your head like it's routine, and not even being out of breath from it, or lifting nearly 600, once, and being dead tired afterward?
I have no idea why you're bringing up 20 STR since we were talking about whether or not 18 STR was superheroic.Olympic weight lifters would be in the range of 20-23 STR. Are these people "superheroic" ???It's your own post, try to remember what you've wrote.
That's not what I wrote. Thanks for showing your reading comprehension.
It assumes that a score of 18 was supposed to represent a fair swath of the real world population, or part of the average. It doesn't. It's supposed to be something beyond exceptional, something superheroic, representing a percentage of a fantasy world population.
A character with 18 STR can lift up to 300 lbs over his head. Is lifting 300 lbs over your head superheroic? No, it is not. Ergo, an ability score of 18 is not superheroic and beyond the abilities of the real-world population.
That's not what I wrote. Thanks for showing your reading comprehension.
That is word for word copy and pasted from your post. Unless there's two n00bxqb's running around.
A character with 18 STR can lift up to 300 lbs over his head. Is lifting 300 lbs over your head superheroic? No, it is not. Ergo, an ability score of 18 is not superheroic and beyond the abilities of the real-world population.
Speaking of reading comprehension...
I believe he was referring to this originally.
I get it, but the whole enterprise is fundamentally flawed. It assumes that a score of 18 was supposed to represent a fair swath of the real world population, or part of the average. It doesn't. It's supposed to be something beyond exceptional, something superheroic, representing a percentage of a fantasy world population. The math is simply wrong because the basic premise of what the numbers...
Here s my advice:
Do NOT roleplay statistics ever.
Seriously it is terrible, just roleplay your character as you wish, in order to fit the flavor you want.
You could roleplay a genius autistic wizard with 20 int who can barely make a full sentence if you wish.
Statistics are just mechanics do not let let you character interpretation be hindered by them.Your 20 strength high elves does not need to look like a body builder
Your 20 constitution halfling does not need to be fat or something
Your 5 dexterity sorcerer should be able to pour himself a cup of tea just fine
Your 5 wisdom barbarian does not need to charge head first into everythingWhen those score needs to be challenged there are rules written for this, outside of those situation, just interpret your character as you wish.
It is alright, trust me.
Agreed. I agree a lot.
I've only been pulled up a little bit for not roleplaying my pc's intelligence properly. Once when I was playing a bandit, then when I was playing a knight. Both were along the line of, your character isn't very smart, should you really be suggesting strategy? The smart spellcasters had their spells, great, but had little interest or understanding on "battle".
For the former, I argued briefly that the bandit char was a jobber, and knows how to job people unfairly and seize advantage. For the latter, the knight, although mediocre in intelligence knows a few things about a battle (Second Darkness, we were saving the elves), and what should be done in a large scale fight.
For the very average int knight, I more emphasised his frustration and naïveté concerning the elves, and confusion why they didn't think or act like feudal humans. A somewhat simple man, as the game went on he really tried to learn a lot about drow and elves (although always placed and argued for human feudalism being superior), and he ended up getting some skills. Now he didn't have a great modifier, but so much of the knowledge he needed came about through rp. He earned it through his charisma skills and patience.
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I don't think a character with 7 int needs to be very dumb at all. He is just a bit below average intelligence.
Not to be insulting, but I'm sure there are many posters on this forum that have a 7 int score in real life, just as there are above average ones.
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Here s my advice:
Do NOT roleplay statistics ever.
Seriously it is terrible, just roleplay your character as you wish, in order to fit the flavor you want.
You could roleplay a genius autistic wizard with 20 int who can barely make a full sentence if you wish.
Statistics are just mechanics do not let let you character interpretation be hindered by them.Your 20 strength high elves does not need to look like a body builder
Your 20 constitution halfling does not need to be fat or something
Your 5 dexterity sorcerer should be able to pour himself a cup of tea just fine
Your 5 wisdom barbarian does not need to charge head first into everythingWhen those score needs to be challenged there are rules written for this, outside of those situation, just interpret your character as you wish.
It is alright, trust me.
These are pretty extreme though. There is no connection at all between constitution and fatness, and there's nothing in the strength description that ties it to looking like a body builder (and in fact, people who are very strong generally don't look as much as body builders... body building and strength training are to a large degree different).
No-one's claiming a dex5 character shouldn't be able to pour himself a cup of tea. We're claiming they shouldn't be able to juggle 8 balls at a time (unless there is some specific background reason for being able to do specifically that).
No-one's claiming a wis5 character should be forced to charge head first into anything, just that he haven't got batman's intuitivity.
Someone with 5 should not be generally able to do something that most regular people can't. Of course there might be exception if the person has trained really well for that task. If it's something nearly everyone can do (like NOT charging headfirst into everything - I mean, our characters aren't cariactures) of course they should be able to do it.
But I want it to be the same for PC's and NPC's. If the claim "ability scores shouldn't affect behaviour" is taken for granted, there's nothing preventing the Giant Spiders for coming up with intrinsic plans on how to kill those intruding PC's, putting out complex chains of traps etc.
The spider wars.
These are pretty extreme though. There is no connection at all between constitution and fatness, and there's nothing in the strength description that ties it to looking like a body builder (and in fact, people who are very strong generally don't look as much as body builders... body building and strength training are to a large degree different).No-one's claiming a dex5 character shouldn't be able to pour himself a cup of tea. We're claiming they shouldn't be able to juggle 8 balls at a time (unless there is some specific background reason for being able to do specifically that).
No-one's claiming a wis5 character should be forced to charge head first into anything, just that he haven't got batman's intuitivity.
Someone with 5 should not be generally able to do something that most regular people can't. Of course there might be exception if the person has trained really well for that task. If it's something nearly everyone can do (like NOT charging headfirst into everything - I mean, our characters aren't cariactures) of course they should be able to do it.
But I want it to be the same for PC's and NPC's. If the claim "ability scores shouldn't...
I choose extreme example, because 7 int is also a kind of extreme case.
It is simply that as a general rule, roleplaying statistics is a bad idea, it ends with frustration from the player and/or cliché characters.
And of course there is a reason those spiders are not doing tactical wars, that reason is that your DM is going to choose to interpret them properly.
Is Wisdom really intuitiveness? That's the issue with roleplaying statistics, it is not clear, there are no rules for this, your wisdom will be challenged when you have rolls to do, that's when the system kicks in.
Telling a player you can't say that your character is too dumb is really bad.
Yeah it is, but as I demonstrated in game, intelligence isn't all book-learning, and jobbing and sound tactics in battle can be an occupational skill. If the super intelligent get out-witted and overrun, well, they seem pretty stupid at the end of the day when the xp is tallied up (one of my biggest problems with the early second darkness books, was how weak and stupid the drow seemed. Hand crossbows and skirmishers against heavy infantry backed up by spell-slingers?).
Truly, profession: bandit is really helpful for being an adventurer. For the knight, I think I was milking the history skill (in this case the history of battle and conflict) as to why he knew battle strategy. He grew up reading treatises on war, he lives for this!