I currently have a wizard 3/cleric 3/mystic theurge 3 and love it.
Wizard is foresight with evocation/necromancy as the forbidden schools.
Cleric has the artifice and law domains (he`s a jewel crafter so artifice was for flavor)
Wizard has an arcane bond as then familiar wouldn't scale properly. Feats are really up to you. If you want to specialize in a specific school of magic for both classes then spell focus will help with your dcs. Just remember that you'll be 3 levels behind on damage dice for damaging spells. I find illusions to be very valuable (ring of wizardy 1 gives me 10 first level spells a day of just arcane spells)
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best way to build a MT is by not building one. theres any number of ways to get the feel without needing to wait till 12-14th level to be functional (hint: thats when most adventure paths finish)--oh yeah sure you can go with nonscaling spells and utility, but you will be worse than everyone at everything for little to no benefit.
play a healing patron witch if you want a lot of arcane and divine stuff on a spellcaster, or maybe an (elf) ancient lorekeeper oracle (with lore mystery and preferably the haunted curse) lets you cherrypick lots of arcane spells to complement your divine ones. eldritch heritage (arcane) feats let you get yet more arcane spells of your choice.
razmiran priest sorcerer is sort-of the opposite with arcane spells and ability to use divine scrolls and things
the mgaambyan arcanist (sp?) PrC is a good alternative as well.
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if you simply MUST go down that masochistic road to MT, you have my condolences. the quicker route is usually the least painful (clr 3/wiz 3), but if you want only one casting stat you could delay it a level (empyreal corcerer 4/clr 3) for WIS-only or two levels (oracle 4/sorc 4) for CHA-only casting.
you'll also wanna stick each class out, instead of going back-and-forth between the two, so for levels 1-3/4 (depending on the above) you're a regular wizard or cleric before you go sideways into the other casting class so you're not entirely gimping yourself in the early (quite hazardous) levels.
traits and such that increase your caster level for spells are of great help (such as magical knack and/or gifted adept traits, spell focus/specialization, varisian tattoo depending on build, heighten spell and other metamagics, etc.). you wanna get the biggest bang for your buck with your limited (CL-wise) selection and power.
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Generally speaking a mystic theurge is among the weakest character options available in pathfinder. The class is quite simply awful. The only thing it brings to the table is spells from the arcane and divine lists, and there are vastly more effective means of doing so. Every other claim as to advantages associated with it is a myth that I've tried to dispel at every opportunity.
People will tell you that though you are three levels behind in casting (two spell levels) you get tons of spells per day because of two lists. It's not true (except at extremely high levels [18-20], and perhaps not even then). People will tell you that you trade raw power for staying power. It isn't true. In no way other than access to off list spells is the mystic theurge even remotely comparable to a full caster.
Lagging three levels behind any other casters in the group (two full levels of spells) is crippling. Beyond how mechanically ineffective it makes you in combat, I've always found it disheartening when I realized that I was playing a character that was hands down the weakest at the table - a spellcaster that was weaker than his fellows had been two levels ago.
As some others have noted, I'd strongly recommend looking at either a witch, an ancient lorekeeper oracle (elf archtype), or a false priest sorcerer. Any of them would let you keep full spellcasting progression while casting a bunch of spells off the divine and arcane lists. Of the three I tend to think the oracle archtype is a little stronger, but your results may vary.
All of that said, if you do insist in keeping to the Mystic Theurge (and again I don't support that as a general point) I'd definitely go Wizard/Cleric. A single casting stat is almost never worth falling a further level behind when you are starting out 3 levels behind every other caster (and behind encounters).
Look for domains and schools that provide large meaningful benefits up front, since you won't get any later on. Travel is a good example of a Domain that gives you a solid base power - 10ft. move speed bonus and the ability to ignore difficult terrain. Law is another (why yes, your friends would love the ability to take 10 on everything for a round). Luck and liberation also fall in this category. Anything that is based off your cleric level is generally bad. Any flat bonus is generally good.
Foresight or normal diviners gain some neat powers at level 1. Transmuters similarly gain a nifty little bonus that stays with you - that +1 can easily offset a penalty or bump a 15 to a 16 without having to spend a ton of points in point buy. As usual, not mentioning the Void school is criminal, because while you don't get reveal weakness, void awareness is awesome in many games.
Focus on one casting stat for your offensive stuff (usually intelligence) while using your secondary set of spells (usually your divine) to fill in for your utility and buff spells. If you try to split down the middle for intelligence and wisdom you'll end up terrible at everything, instead of simply really bad at everything. Spell Focus / Greater Spell Focus is almost a must if you want any kind of offensive ability. With or without magical knack you might also look at Spell Penetration / Greater Spell Penetration.
On the whole my experience has been that metamagic is almost always a bad investment for you, because you are short on high level spells as it is. Simply put, you lack the resources to commit, and the feats will just take up space on your list.
Good luck: You're going to need it.
Are you allowed 3rd party products? Play a Magister instead. Also available on d20pfsrd if you want to take a look.
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TLDR: rule 0 is that the DM decides what the rules are - so many people forget this. And it's RAW because the Core Book tells you this...but read on.
I feel compelled to say that, in my campaign, one of my PCs has been playing a wizard/druid/theurge. From about 7-8 levels she was "behind" the other party caster in terms of total damage output, but about half of that was because she donated most of her treasure to another PC who ended up being the main tank and damage dealer of the party.
As of now she just cashed a large amount of loot and has Int and Wis in the high-ish 20s, a metamagic rod of quicken, and I don't remember what-all else. Feats like (Greater) Spell Penetration and the trait that increases your caster level (forgot what it's called), an orange ioun stone (+1 CL for a very reasonable price), and so forth also make a big difference, as does the Allied Caster feat (which she and the other casters in the party have all taken). The Theurgy feat from Ultimate Magic also provides a use for some of those leftover spell levels for many theurge-players. (For the record she loves her character and hasn't felt underpowered at all...)
As someone in some other old old thread said, it also helps to not overlap with your other party members. If you have a cleric, try druid as your divine class. And so forth.
Also...rule 0 is that the DM decides the rules and the rulebooks are just guidelines. That should ALWAYS be the first response to anyone who is (1) a rules lawyer (the bad kind), (2) a min/maxer, and (3) has complaints that any given part of the game is "too weak" or "too strong." If one of my players says "it's in the rules with blah blah feats and stuff that I get +30 trip attempts at level 4," I'm going to say "no" and make it clear what the rules really are. If someone says "mystic theurges are underpowered" and it's true based on our experience in the campaign so far then I'll make some slight changes to the rules and tell everyone what they are.
I have in fact semi-recently made several changes both up and down to different things the PCs have taken as items, feats, etc., all of which have served to keep things challenging (people still die) and fun for all of us. I update them on the campaign website so no one is left out of the loop.
To anyone reading this: if anyone tells you that mystic theurges are too weak, and you agree, here's what you do: go up to your DM and ask him to take a look at the PrC with you for half an hour sometime. Both of you should look at different options for base classes, feats, items, etc. Your DM, if he's any good at all, will (assuming that he agrees they are underpowered) make some slight revisions to the rules. He should make them available to everyone in the game so you're all on the same page. He should ALSO periodically revisit those changes. Do they solve the problem? Are they too powerful? Then he should make changes as needed and work with you to do so; in return, you don't pitch a fit if he realizes he just gave you something OP and adjusts it. Your DM should also keep in mind the direction his campaign is going to go and use that to guide his judgment.
No one should say "well, that's house rules, not RAW," to this, either...seriously. Read the Core Book, where it talks about DMing. (Yes, I know they don't call it that.) Right there it will tell you what I wrote at the top of the post...which makes Rule 0 RAW. Even if it didn't say that, common sense, people.
Rules in the books are a GREAT guide and make organized play possible, but if your DM won't work with you to make your concept work, he's not doing his job. That's also what these messageboards are supposed to be for...all I see (at least regarding mystic theurges) are people naively asking "how do I make a good one" and 90% of the posts are "THEY SUCK."
/rant
the 'secret' to a solid mystic theurge is early entry... as an elf, i'm assuming that you want to favor wizard. so take Wiz 3 (any specialization you want) and one level of cleric with the fate inquisition for one domain, or the trickery domain (depending on what you can get from the god you want; and remember that you can use the separatist archetype for this)- the SLA ability you get from the inquisition/domain counts as a 2nd level cleric spell so you can go straight into MT at 5th level. that way you gain new arcane spell levels at the same time as a sorcerer (and only ever lose one wizard casting level), and will gain a total of 11 levels of cleric casting!
for stats- crank your Int as high as you can, just keep wisdom high enough to keep up with new spell levels. plan on using any save or suck spells on the wizard side and using cleric spells for heals/buffs/utility. whatever points you have leftover drop in Dex/Con for a little added survivability. i'd probably do something like: str 8, dex 14 (12+2), con 12 (14-2), int 18 (16+2), wis 14, cha 10 and plan on putting leveling bonuses all in Int (count on an item to get Wis to 16 when needed).
for feats- pick what you want to do with magic and spend your feats accordingly... remember that things like spell focus will apply to both classes so they can get a lot of mileage. the 1d6 healing from channel won't be worth much but if you take a variant channel that gives a useful (little) buff the quick channel feat could be handy (to throw out a party buff as a move action).
somehow i totally missed that this was a 30 point buy...
summoners are always useful, but really one of their big strengths is that they can get away with not having a super high casting stat (which makes them awesome in lower point buys) but you can afford a great Int so that opens up a lot of other possibilities (plus in a high point buy you tend to fight tougher enemies and, since the summoned creatures don't scale up, the summons won't be as useful against them).
personally, with 30 points i'd probably go for something like:
Str 8, Dex 15 (13+2), Con 12 (14-2), Int 20 (18+2), Wis 14, Cha 12
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Mystic Theurge characters are probably a lot of fun when your character is 16th level and casting as a 13th level arcane/divine caster.
At level 4, it's going to suck eggs. Multiclassing spellcasting classes is an exercise in masochism. Don't expect to have much fun until your character gets to level 8 or so.
However, if you have your mind made up - here's some suggestions:
1) Your caster level will never be where it should be. This makes everything you cast exceedingly dispellable. Permanent effects can't be dispelled - that makes spells like Wall of Stone particularly attractive.
2) Let's touch on Caster level again. Some creatures have SR. This is a problem. Make sure you get the penetration feats. On top of your race, you should be OK.
3) Play like a coward. Your Arcane 3/Divine 3 character is going to be super weak, and have almost no defenses. Lots of players have the joy of playing a character that can't contribute under the assumption that the character would eventually be able to contribute - then splat.
4) MAD can be a problem. If you can get classes that use the same casting stat (like Oracle/Sorcerer for example), you can alleviate that. However, expect to suck even LONGER before you start contributing. Just be prepared for it.
5) Take a good look at the WITCH. I consider the Witch the solution to the crappy Mystic Theurge PrC, as it's a caster that has a spell list that looks like someone took the wizard and cleric spell lists and mixed them all together. Often a good choice if that's your interest.
@treantmonk- it seems like you're usually very knowledgeable about builds... are you unaware of the different options for early entry, or choosing to ignore them for some reason? unless you're looking for some very specific build, there's no reason to lose more than 1 level in your favored caster class! at 6th level you should be gaining 3rd level spells in your favored class (just like a spontaneous caster), and 2nd level spells in your secondary class (since you have 1 level in it, plus 2 MT).
MAD can be an issue (though there are workarounds like sorc/oracle or empyreal sorc/cleric, if you're willing to delay new spell levels a little more), but if you think of one class as your primary casting (and keep its stat as high as possible) then you only ever really need to get up to a 16 in your off casting stat (since your CL will hit 11 for 6th level spells) and avoid spells that need to overcome SR or saves with that class.
Did someone miss the fact that the OP posted this over a year ago?
As an aside: you should be entering MT at level 4, not at level 5. You take 2 levels in sorc/wizard or oracle/cleric and one level in the opposite. You can do this via fate inquisition, trickery domain or wood mystery on the divine side, and by playing a half-elf (drowblooded), aasimar variant or tiefling on the arcane side.
@treantmonk- it seems like you're usually very knowledgeable about builds... are you unaware of the different options for early entry, or choosing to ignore them for some reason?
Not ignoring, my knowledge is super-outdated. What are the tricks?
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@treantmonk- it seems like you're usually very knowledgeable about builds... are you unaware of the different options for early entry, or choosing to ignore them for some reason?Not ignoring, my knowledge is super-outdated. What are the tricks?
It's really only one trick, but as of this errata/FAQ Spell-Like Abilities count as spells for prerequisites.
So Tieflings count as having 2nd level Arcane Spells, and the Trickery Domain counts as 2nd level Divine, and so on.
@treantmonk- it seems like you're usually very knowledgeable about builds... are you unaware of the different options for early entry, or choosing to ignore them for some reason?Not ignoring, my knowledge is super-outdated. What are the tricks?
Basically, this (and the faq under that) came out last year. Not long after this thread originally came about, amusingly.
Made a lot of things far more viable than previously was the case.
@treantmonk- it seems like you're usually very knowledgeable about builds... are you unaware of the different options for early entry, or choosing to ignore them for some reason?Not ignoring, my knowledge is super-outdated. What are the tricks?
The jist of it is, spell-like abilities now allow you to qualify for spellcasting prerequisites like 'ability to cast X-level spells'. With the right race or class combos you can gain very early entry to a bunch of spellcasting PRCs (From core: Mystic Theurge at level 4 as we discussed above, Eldritch Knight at level 3, Arcane trickster at level 4). So far this is PFS legal.
You can also use the new 'Evangelist' class from inner sea gods, which gives you FULL CLASS progression offset by one level. This will likely be FAQ'd, but for now a possible interpretation is that this allows you to advance spellcasting prestige classes beyond 10th level. Given this (rather dodgy) interpretation it is possible as a MT to get 9th level casting in both spellcasting classes.
The final piece of the puzzle is the arcane guild rules from inner sea magic. This relies on DM fiat and is PFS illegal but potentially allows you to make up all lost caster levels including spell levels in your two classes, and end up as a 20th level/19th level caster if you combine it with evangelist.
Did someone miss the fact that the OP posted this over a year ago?
hahaha- i commented like 3-4 different times and never noticed that someone had necro'd a year-old thread, lol
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@treantmonk- it seems like you're usually very knowledgeable about builds... are you unaware of the different options for early entry, or choosing to ignore them for some reason?Not ignoring, my knowledge is super-outdated. What are the tricks?Basically, this (and the faq under that) came out last year. Not long after this thread originally came about, amusingly.
Made a lot of things far more viable than previously was the case.
Here is a compiled list of the various ways to get SLAs to qualify for things early.
And might I say, It's a pleasant surprise seeing you back on the boards, Treantmonk.
Honestly I thought treantmonk was some sort of myth. Nice to meet'cha.
back on topic, and to amend my earlier (year old) post:
thanks to early-entry due to SLA's and the esoteric training bits from newer material, MT can hit 9th level casting in both divine and arcane.
a build (that was heavily borrowed from another poster on the forums who's name escapes me) that seems at least servicable the legit route:
ULTIMYSTIC THEURGE
CN dual-talent human wizard (diviner [illusion, enchantment]) 4 / cleric (desna [luck, liberation]) 6 / mystic theurge 10
levels go: wiz 3 / clr 3 / MT 10 / wiz 1 / clr 3
stats (20pb):
str 8 (-2pt), dex 16, con 20 (5pt), int 30 (10t +2r), wis 30 (7pt +2r), cha 10
wis/int/wis/int/wis (level), +6 dex/con/int/wis (belt/headband), +4 int/wis (book/wish)
traits: magical knack (cleric) / reactionary
feats:
1 - Scribe Scroll, Improved Initiative
3 - Craft Wonderous Item
5 - Heighten Spell
7 - Extend Spell
9 - Dazing Spell
11 - Elemental Spell (acid)
13 - Spell Mastery (emergency force sphere, invisibility, shrink item, dimension door, protection from energy, teleport, lightning bolt, ennervation)
15 - Spell Penetration
17 - Spell Mastery (time stop, contingency, plane shift, overland flight, mind blank, permanency, greater scrying, wall of stone, wall of iron, maze)
19 - Greater Spell Penetration
suggested spells *there's nothing here, no need to open*
0 (infinite)-
1 (7+1/day)-
2 (7+1/day)-
3 (6+1/day)-
4 (6+1/day)-
5 (6+1/day)-
6 (6+1/day)-
7 (4+1/day)-
8 (3+1/day)-
9 (2+1/day)-
cleric
0 (infinite)-
1 (6+1/day)-
2 (6+1/day)-
3 (6+1/day)-
4 (6+1/day)-
5 (6+1/day)-
6 (6+1/day)-
7 (4+1/day)-
8 (3+1/day)-
9 (2+1/day)-
favored class (cleric)
esoteric training (35 fame [+3 wizard, +1 cleric])
greensting scorpion familiar
CL 17/19 wizard/cleric
+18 initiative (+3 dex +2 trait +4 feat +4 familiar +4 school +1 stone)
Wait, Treantmonk is online? I thought you disappeared from the community. Welcome back.
Yeah, been a couple years since I posted anything. Thanks!
I'm probably not going to be here regularly, but will poke my nose in here and there.
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esoteric training is from inner sea magic (iirc). it shows up in builds on these forums once in a while but i've never seen it used/allowed in an actual game (in fact, i've never even met someone IRL who has ever used those rules), so ask your GM about it but don't count on it being available.
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Ty nate
So Actually, can we do this:
Cleric 1 (Calistria - Trick/Charm - Wiz 2º)
Wizard 1
Clr 2
Mystic Theurge 1
MT 2
Evangelist 1 (Chosing MT as Aligned Class)
Ev 2
Ev 3
Ev 4
Ev 5
Ev 6
Ev 7
Ev 8
Ev 9
Ev 10
MT 3
MT 4
MT 5
MT 6
MT 7
Even with Ev subtracting 1 CL, still
Cleric 18/Wizard 17 at level 20.
Or Wiz 18 / Clr 17 with lvl 3 being Wiz.
Flawless?
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Kemedo, there is debate on this one, but the big problem is there is no advancement listed after level 10, and there is no ruling saying that you continue 10 level classes progression.
Actually, according to the class entry:
When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.
No chart needed, actually, by rules. This is the actual entry of the rules conflicting with the short-hand, similar to the short version of feats in the list form conflicting with the rules of the actual feat.
Thus, even if there's no actual progression, it still functions.
+1 to gregory's comment.
as a GM (in a home game) i'm inclined to accept that build because it sets you back an entire spell level, does nothing to break action economy (you can still only cast 1 spell plus 1 quickened spell, if applicable, per round), and if you are ever prevented from performing your deific obedience you lose 10 caster levels in both classes (and because i agree with tacticslion's reading of that text). but be aware that many other GMs will not accept it for exactly the reason gregory mentioned- there is no precedent anywhere in pathfinder for extending a prestige class or its abilities past 10th level.
if you are allowed to use it, it will be a very versatile character, but you better make sure that you can always perform your obedience...