thats overboard for a trap meant for 5th level characters
This means it is likely extreme sarcasm, for the sake of sarcasm"
FIFY.
Fixed it for you; it was my belief you had added a superfluous and inaccurate rider.
You count as your own ally.
I think there are some ways to do it with illusion spells and feats, or summoning, but I want a way for a single person to flank an enemy.
What if you were a huge creature (3*3, yeah?), an an incorporeal creature moved into one of your squares (he can probably do that, as he has no body).
You and "your ally" (also you) now threaten by occupying two squares on opposite sides of a creature. Does that work?
dimensional dervish Salind, its a feat meant for full attacking with dimension door or abundant step
Oh splat book monk love.
I fixed it. Also, deadly sneak does suck.
Human Rogue 10
(20 point buy)
Str 24 Dex 16 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 12 Cha 7
BAB +7
Initiative: +9
Sneak Attack: +5d6
Traits: Adopted(Elf, Warrior of Old), Blade of the Society
Rogue Talents: Weapon Training, Combat Trick, Offensive Defense, Terrain Mastery (Urban)
Advanced Rogue Talents: Terrain Mastery (Forest)
Feats - Weapon Focus (Sap), Improved Initiative, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Double Slice, Sap Adept, Sap Master, Two Weapon Defense
Skill Points:100
+3 Sap (18k), +3 Sap(18k) Cloak of the Elvenkind(2.5k), Belt of Giant Strength +4 (16k) +2 Mithral Breastplate, +1500 GP in "Other Gear"
I am the alpha strike, I start combat.
Surprise Round: Opening Attack (Charge from the darkness with sap) +24 (1d6+10 20/x2, +56 sneak attack average)
.95(69.5) = 66
Average Alpha Strike Damage: 66 Non-Lethal
Round 1, I gain initiative or target denied dex or flanking. We will call it a flat +2 to my attack for any of those to make it easy and average it out <---- Important added to hit based on situation
+18/+13 (1d6+10 20/x2, +56 sneak)
+18/+13 (1d6+10 20/x2, +56 sneak)
Base 7 + 7 Str + 3 enhancement +1 Focus +2 situation = +20
-2 two weapon fighting
Base: 5d6
Sap Adept: Gain 2 damage per Sneak attack die rolled.
Sap Master: Roll Sneak attack dice 2x (double rolled)
+1 damage for blade of the society trait.
10d6+20 = 35+20+1 = 56
2(.75(69.5)= 104
2(.5(69.5) = 70
Average Round 1 Damage = 174 Non-Lethal
I ignored Critical strike damage because it added minimal average damage per round.
There you have it folks, High Skill, HIGH AC Rogue, low HP, alpha strike rogue that can knock people the @#$% out for 240 Non Lethal Damage by the end of Round 1
There, I swapped some things around. I also get +10 dodge bonus to AC every time I sneak attack something, (+10 STACKING WITHIN THE ROUND EVERY TIME I HIT A CREATURE). That's an average +35 dodge bonus to ac round 1.
I will get a +4 to stealth, initiative in cities and a +2 in forests. (or, I can choose 2 other talents.
Woops: Errat'd
The Dodge bonus would be +10 vs an creature snuck attacked. Still amazing btw.
Woops: Errat'd
The Dodge bonus would be +10 vs an creature snuck attacked. Still amazing btw.
I just assumed you meant that, but since that is the most likely creature to want to kill you, it is still not bad.
edit:Just don't bring this build into an undead campaign, and it should do ok. Well I still don't like the low fort or will save, but that is just me.
Too much to read, so I'll will respond only to the direct challenge.
"Oh, poor little baby rogue has +20 bluff? I've got +26, so shut up and look pretty while the big boys talk" "Oh, you got diplomacy +18? I got +25, now go make me a sandwich and stop getting in the way"I have a 3rd level Rogue with +20 Stealth. Beat that, Homer.
Anyone can do that.
20 dex(+5), Skill focus and Stealthy(+5), three skill ranks(+3), class skill (+3), trait bonus(+1), masterwork stealth tool 50gp (+2), not sure where you're getting the extra +1, but I bet it's something else that anyone can get. Maybe two traits? There's a combat one and a regional one so that could work. Wasteful and minmax abuse, but trait bonus (+2) then.5+5+3+3+2+2=20
None of that is rogue only. With the same investment a fighter can do that. The bard, and almost every other caster, can get that and eventually back it up with invisibility.
An Urban Barbarian can get +22. An Alchemist with a dex mutagen can get +22. A ranger in his favorite terrain can get +22.
A Ninja can get Vanishing Trick at level 2 and reach +40. +60 if he stands still.
Trait bonuses don't stack. Try a size bonus, as in halfling, goblin, or gnomes get a +4. So it would overcome two traits and stealthy or a trait and skill focus.Anyone can do that.
20 dex(+5), Skill focus and Stealthy(+5), three skill ranks(+3), class skill (+3), trait bonus(+1), masterwork stealth tool 50gp (+2), not sure where you're getting the extra +1, but I bet it's something else that anyone can get. Maybe two traits? There's a combat one and a regional one so that could work. Wasteful and minmax abuse, but trait bonus (+2) then.
5+5+3+3+2+2=20
None of that is rogue only. With the same investment a fighter can do that. The bard, and almost every other caster, can get that and eventually back it up with invisibility.
An Urban Barbarian can get +22. An Alchemist with a dex mutagen can get +22. A ranger in his favorite terrain can get +22.
A Ninja can get Vanishing Trick at level 2 and reach +40. +60 if he stands still.
You're right. That means anyone can get +23 stealth if they really minmax. 25 for the barbarian alchemist and ranger and 43 for the ninja. The main point stands. Rogues are not the masters of stealth. Their only advantage is Fast Stealth, and it's not really all that much.
Well really anyone can be a master of stealth with the invisibility spell...
I fixed it. Also, deadly sneak does suck.
Human Rogue 10
(20 point buy)Str 24 Dex 16 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 12 Cha 7
BAB +7
Initiative: +9
Sneak Attack: +5d6
Traits: Adopted(Elf, Warrior of Old), Blade of the Society
Rogue Talents: Weapon Training, Combat Trick, Offensive Defense, Terrain Mastery (Urban)
Advanced Rogue Talents: Terrain Mastery (Forest)
Feats - Weapon Focus (Sap), Improved Initiative, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Double Slice, Sap Adept, Sap Master, Two Weapon Defense
Skill Points:100
+3 Sap (18k), +3 Sap(18k) Cloak of the Elvenkind(2.5k), Belt of Giant Strength +4 (16k) +2 Mithral Breastplate, +1500 GP in "Other Gear"I am the alpha strike, I start combat.
Surprise Round: Opening Attack (Charge from the darkness with sap) +24 (1d6+10 20/x2, +56 sneak attack average).95(69.5) = 66
Average Alpha Strike Damage: 66 Non-Lethal
Round 1, I gain initiative or target denied dex or flanking. We will call it a flat +2 to my attack for any of those to make it easy and average it out <---- Important added to hit based on situation
+18/+13 (1d6+10 20/x2, +56 sneak)
+18/+13 (1d6+10 20/x2, +56 sneak)
** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **
2(.75(69.5)= 104
2(.5(69.5) = 70Average Round 1 Damage = 174 Non-Lethal
I ignored Critical strike damage because it added minimal average damage per round.
There you have it folks, High Skill, HIGH AC Rogue, low HP, alpha strike rogue that can knock people the @#$% out for 240 Non Lethal Damage by the end of Round 1
There, I swapped some things around. I also get +10 dodge bonus to AC every time I sneak attack something, (+10 STACKING WITHIN THE...
Really good build, but...
If you lower str and wis by two each, you can increase cha, like so:Str 22 Dex 16 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 13
And go ninja instead of rogue. Trade the two terrain masteries for Vanishing Trick and Invisible Blade. Keep everything else the same.
Dowsides:
* -1 Will
* -1 Perception
* -1 to hit and damage
Upsides:
* Spend one ki before battle to get greaer invisibility
* Spend one ki for an extra attack on first round for extra 55 damage
* Always hit foes denied their dex to AC on the first ten rounds, can alpha strike even if target rolls twenty on initiative or can't flank
* 50% miss chance and +2 to hit against creatures that rely on sight on the first ten rounds
* +5 on Disguise, Bluff and other Cha skills
You can do this alpha strike 3 times a day before going out of ki.
It ends up with a better alpha strike than the rogue but limited times a day. What do you think?
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Why don't you go Thug and go the Intimidate route.
Skill ranks don't do much if GMs don't let you take 20 on perception checks to spot traps lets say. Then you cannot use your Disable Device.
Also, it seems like people don't care much about avoiding combat or traps, so skills are not useful outside of combat unless they are movement skills.
It is easier for each character to add what they have already in terms of skills. Wizards with high Int get to add the int based skills to the party. Sorcerers/Paladins/etc. get to add to the Charisma based skills. Clerics/Monks/etc. do the same with Wisdom. Unless players value stealth for exploration and all the things the Rogue can do outside of combat, you are really out of luck.
The problem with ranks is that you can only have as many as your HD so any player can compete with you and can have a higher bonus than you if they have a higher attribute modifier for that skill (and the class skill bonus).
You can also go Arcane Trickster and blind (or pin) people with Wizard spells and get your Sneak Attack in. You can also get a level of Sleepless Detective to save you a Caster Level.
When you get down to it, having maximum ranks in 3-4 extra skills does not mean much. I believe in skill specialization, where nobody can have a higher skill bonus than you. That is why Bards are good at level 2 and 6. But there are many other classes that add a modifier again to a skill. Those are the better choices over just having more ranks than everybody else.
I see a lot of resounding "NO" going on here, and would like to make a few points.
One: I would NOT use your feats for skill enhancement, instead go toward Spring Attack. Why? A rogue having a decent STR is good, but note that a LOT of your damage will be in your use of crit tasty weapons (rapier, wakizashi, etc) that also (omg) uses DEX with Weapon Finesse and your Sneak Attack. Layer on situational damage flanking with your front liners and then GTFO with spring attack. Constant In/Out.
Two: If you're going to use mostly skills, abuse the hell out of Acrobatics and its bonuses to defensive fighting. Crank up Bluff as well for feint. Keep in mind to dump a few into Sense Motive so you don't get feinted yourself.
Three: Fight defensively. 9/10 when I sneak attack, its not because I got the drop on someone with Stealth but because I'm flanking someone. Pick up Crane Style for the addition to AC, but more importantly the reduction of defensive fighting, which (oh look) will now make defensive flanking a net 0 to your hit.
Four: If your party is cool with you being unable to carry weight and few HP, look into teamwork feats to get some other bonuses from them as well. Broken Wing Gambit, Escape Route, Back to Back and Seize the Moment allow a rogue some tasty combat tricks to use with their more beefy front liners.
At the end of the day, yes, you will be weaker than your average rogue, but you could also end up with a greater bag of tricks than is usual also. If you have a good head, and the support of your party, it can go a long way to some flavorful endings.
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Four does not really work well in PFS unless you have a buddy that shows up with you to every game. Teamwork feats are great when others have them. When playing in a system where the people you play with may and does change on a per week basis...not so great. Please remember to keep advice on this thread relevant to that idea.
Too much to read, so I'll will respond only to the direct challenge.
"Oh, poor little baby rogue has +20 bluff? I've got +26, so shut up and look pretty while the big boys talk" "Oh, you got diplomacy +18? I got +25, now go make me a sandwich and stop getting in the way"I have a 3rd level Rogue with +20 Stealth. Beat that, Homer.Anyone can do that.
20 dex(+5), Skill focus and Stealthy(+5), three skill ranks(+3), class skill (+3), trait bonus(+1), masterwork stealth tool 50gp (+2), not sure where you're getting the extra +1, but I bet it's something else that anyone can get. Maybe two traits? There's a combat one and a regional one so that could work. Wasteful and minmax abuse, but trait bonus (+2) then.
5+5+3+3+2+2=20
None of that is rogue only. With the same investment a fighter can do that. The bard, and almost every other caster, can get that and eventually back it up with invisibility.
An Urban Barbarian can get +22. An Alchemist with a dex mutagen can get +22. A ranger in his favorite terrain can get +22.
A Ninja can get Vanishing Trick at level 2 and reach +40. +60 if he stands still.
Yeah it can be frustrating because other classes can in theory speclize in their few skills and be just as good or better then a rogue. But the rogue can have high ranks in multiple skills. This means you can combine them in creative ways.
For example say you have Slight of hand, bluff, Preform Acting, Disguise, and alchemy that is everything you will need to put on a stage performer magician act in towns. Why the f!%# would you want to do that? Well suppose the evil wizard your party is pursuing is on the look out for you. But he won't be on the look out for a troop of traveling entertainers.
Or perhaps the mayor your...
You do realize you're talking abut a bard, right?
Anyone figure out a good rogue build yet?
Anyone figure out a good rogue build yet?
In Pathfinder? No, there isn't one.
Anyone figure out a good rogue build yet?In Pathfinder? No, there isn't one.
Dang!
Or Bard (vanilla, or various archetypes).
Or Vivisectionist.
Or Synthesist Summoner (yay, Skilled evolution and high int by way of dump statting!)
Or Inquisitor.
Or Wizard.
Why are you ressurecting old threads about rogues... I must admit I'm getting tired of "rogues don't kick ass the way they should".
Yes, rogues in Pathfinder don't 1-shot enemies unless you optimize.
Yes, rogues in Pathfinder don't get to be the master skillmonkey I-can-do-it-all.
For heavens sake: this is a damn team game... if you want to be the cool sneaky solo assassin go play Assassins Creed and give me a break.
ok, now that I vented my frustation about the rogue/fighter whining, here's some more constructive stuff:
rogues can be good... read the guides out there...
charismatic rogue that feints and/or dazzling displays
strong&smart rogue that dirty trick (maneuver to blind) people
sure at level 20 you have trouble succeeding at maneuvers, but at what level do you start and at what level does your DM expect to end the campaign?
there is no point in making a level 20 character that only becomes kick-ass during late levels, if all you'll ever see is level 15 max
in campaigns with lots of humanoids, maneuvers are great... vs medium sized undead, tripping can still be great
I always found the rogue skill monopoly in 3.5 unfair because everybody gets to do stuff in combat but out of combat you basically listen to the 1-on-1 between the rogue and DM... as everybody else didn't have enough skills to do something useful
Now everybody get to do some stuff out of combat... just make sure you split the out of combat roles across your party (and have redundancy in important skills):
- face
- mechanic (disable device)
- lorekeeper (multiple)
- monster specialist (id monsters to know their weaknesses and tell the group what tactics are best)
- keen eyes (perception/sense motive/...)
- tracker/orientation (survival/knowledge-geography/...)
- monkey (get to tough places: climb/acrobat/...)
- ...
there are so many skills that can be useful, don't tell me your group covered all of these? Of course it's up to your DM to make these skills "good-to-have"
sure a spellcaster has spells... but what do you do when he runs out? 15min adventure days? :-(
_____________________________________________
sometimes I wonder if DMs enforce the price of scribing scrolls/wands on their players... I wonder where they get all that money to craft scrolls/wands in such quantities
if the caster get more money to craft these from the group's WBL it's up to the players to figure out how they want to share loot
any character that get's more loot than the rest will of course be stronger than the rest, no matter if it's single-use or always-active items
whenever spellcasters get extra scrolls for spell usage, non-spellcasters could get alchemical stuff to throw around:
- Tanglefoot bag
- Thunderstone
- Alchemist's fire
- Smokestick
- Tindertwig (combine with the wizard's pyrotechnics spell, and he'll love you... TEAMWORK, both ways!)
and these are CRB only... the list from Ultimate Equipment is HUGE
Rogue is no monkey. With no magical items or poison, they are the most powerful thing against caster, how are you able to beat his stealth without detect magic? Chance is, not likely. When you see him, back stab sneak attack! Ouch, with Greater Vital Strike? Bye casters! Now they can let the brute and caster finish the job.
Rogues are also the awesome at Duel Weild builds and multiclassing.
If you want to multiclass a bard.... he will just suck.
so the advantage of rogues is that you could stop leveling as one and get an improvement?
Rogue is no monkey. With no magical items or poison, they are the most powerful thing against caster, how are you able to beat his stealth without detect magic? Chance is, not likely. When you see him, back stab sneak attack! Ouch, with Greater Vital Strike? Bye casters! Now they can let the brute and caster finish the job.
just to be sure, you are aware that grater vital strike does not multiply sneak attack, aren't you?
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ure a spellcaster has spells... but what do you do when he runs out? 15min adventure days? :-(
Only in ADnD and prior editions the wizard run out of spells. In 3.X it only happens at liw levels (1-7). They have too much spell slots, int bonus, school bonus, pearls of powers and scrolls to stop contributing all day long
ure a spellcaster has spells... but what do you do when he runs out? 15min adventure days? :-(Only in ADnD and prior editions the wizard run out of spells. In 3.X it only happens at liw levels (1-7). They have too much spell slots, int bonus, school bonus, pearls of powers and scrolls to stop contributing all day long
- Pearls of Power is 1,000 gp... see my wall of text about WBL.
- int bonus depends on point-buy and whether the DMs allows stat dumping
- low levels? ...Pathfinder Society play is... level 1-6, iirc... and how high does your DM take your campaigns, we almost never go above 15... you?
I was starting a list of stuff for martial characters, here's the beginning:
Dirty Trick Maneuver
choose conditions inflicted:
- blind
- halve speed
- sickened
- ...
- Feat Chain: Combat Expertise, Improved Dirty Trick, Greater Dirty Trick
Classes with boni:
- Cad (fighter)
- Dirty Tricks (orcish fighter)
______________________________
Intimidation
- Feats: Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, Shatter Defenses, Intimidating Prowess, Power Attack, Cornugon Smash, Enforcer, ...
Classes with boni:
- Thug (rogue)
______________________________
Whip (Trip, Disarm, Grapple)
- Feats: Weapon Focus (whip), Whip Mastery, Improved Whip Mastery, Greater Whip Mastery
- option: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip/Disarm
- option 2: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple
______________________________
Feint
- Feats: Quick Draw, Wave Strike, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Feint, Improved Two-Weapon Feint
______________________________
Sneak Attacks and nice Rogue Talents
Rogue Talents:
- Bleeding Attack* (Ex): A rogue with this ability can cause living opponents to bleed by hitting them with a sneak attack. This attack causes the target to take 1 additional point of damage each round for each die of the rogue's sneak attack (e.g., 4d6 equals 4 points of bleed). Bleeding creatures take that amount of damage every round at the start of each of their turns. The bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or the application of any effect that heals hit point damage. Bleeding damage from this ability does not stack with itself. Bleeding damage bypasses any damage reduction the creature might possess.
- Befuddling Strike** (Ex): When the rogue deals sneak attack damage against an opponent, that opponent takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls against the rogue for 1d4 rounds.
- Offensive Defense** (Ex): When a rogue with this talent hits a creature with a melee attack that deals sneak attack damage, the rogue gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each sneak attack die rolled for 1 round.
- Positioning Attack (Ex): Once per day, when a rogue with this talent hits a creature with a melee attack, she can move up to 30 feet without provoking attacks of opportunity. The movement must end in a space adjacent to the creature hit with the melee attack.
Advanced Talents:
- Crippling Strike* (Ex): A rogue with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that her blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of her sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Strength damage.
- Dispelling Attack* (Su): Opponents that are dealt sneak attack damage by a rogue with this ability are affected by a targeted dispel magic, targeting the lowest-level spell effect active on the target. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level. A rogue must have the major magic rogue talent before choosing dispelling attack.
- Knock-Out Blow (Ex): Once per day, the rogue can forgo her sneak attack damage to attempt to knock out an opponent. She must declare the use of knock-out blow before she makes the attack. If the attack hits, it does normal damage, but instead of dealing sneak attack damage (and instead of any effect that triggers when the rogue deals sneak attack damage), the target falls unconscious for 1d4 rounds. A successful Fortitude save reduces this effect to staggered for 1 round. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the rogue's level + the rogue's Intelligence modifier.
- Redirect Attack (Ex): Once per day, when a rogue with this talent is hit with a melee attack, she can redirect the attack to strike at an adjacent creature with a free action. The creature targeted must be within melee reach of the attack that hit the rogue, and the creature that made the attack against the rogue must make a new attack roll against the new target.
- Confounding Blades* (Ex): When a rogue with this talent hits a creature with a melee weapon that deals sneak attack damage, her target cannot make attacks of opportunity until the beginning of her next turn.
- Unwitting Ally (Ex): A rogue with this talent can spend a swift action to attempt to make an opponent act like an ally for purposes of providing a flank until the beginning of the rogue's next turn. The opponent must be able to hear and see the rogue, and the rogue must succeed at a Bluff check opposed by the opponent's Sense Motive. If the check succeeds, the opponent acts as an ally for the purpose of providing a flank. Whether or not the check succeeds, the rogue cannot use this trick again on the same opponent for the next 24 hours. If the rogue fails the check by 5 or more, she cannot use the unwitting ally ability on any opponent within line of sight of the failed attempt for 24 hours.
- Weapon Snatcher (Ex): A rogue with this talent can make a Sleight of Hand check in place of a combat maneuver check when attempting to disarm an opponent.
ure a spellcaster has spells... but what do you do when he runs out? 15min adventure days? :-(Only in ADnD and prior editions the wizard run out of spells. In 3.X it only happens at liw levels (1-7). They have too much spell slots, int bonus, school bonus, pearls of powers and scrolls to stop contributing all day long- Pearls of Power is 1,000 gp... see my wall of text about WBL.
it's 500 if yiu craft it yourself. For the cost of a +1 longsword and +1 full plate you can craft SEVEN of them.
- int bonus depends on point-buy and whether the DMs allows stat dumping
it does not. If my wizard can't start with 18 int, then your fighter can't start with 18 str either. A wizard can start with 10-12-13-18-10-10 with 15 point buy being human just fine.
- low levels? ...Pathfinder Society play is... level 1-6, iirc... and how high does your DM take your campaigns, we almost never go above 15... you?
PFS is levels 1-12. I play published AP, they finish at levels 17/18. They leave level 7 before they finish book 2. I'm currently GMing way of the wicked at level 18. And notice I said wizards dont run out of spells beyond level 7-9. In a AP, that's less than half the books
- Pearls of Power is 1,000 gp... see my wall of text about WBL.
it's 500 if yiu craft it yourself. For the cost of a +1 longsword and +1 full plate you can craft SEVEN of them.
I hope that crafter wizard does craft stuff for his teammates too? Oh, let me guess, he asks full price from his friends and adds the difference 50% to his own wealth? ...
If my wizard can't start with 18 int, then your fighter can't start with 18 str either.
I'd rather have 16-14-14-10-10-10 for my fighter... maybe even pump int if I don't take the lore warden AC to get Combat Expertise and open up improved combat maneuver feats
A wizard can start with 10-12-13-18-10-10 with 15 point buy being human just fine.
Sure and at the first few levels he'll waste 1 of his spells for mage armor and defensive buffs or eat dirt quite a lot... Our group doesn't get to block hallways with 2 melee guys all the time. Also our enemies are smart enough to try an sniper the spellcasters that don't wear armor. Usually casters are dangerous, it's up to the party to work together... as a team.
Also our group often wins the surprise, but sometimes they don't. At that point the casters are happy to have an melee guy dragging the attention to themselves.Imho a good DM should provide all sorts of different encounters, use terrain/weather/... experience different situations...
I play published AP, they finish at levels 17/18. They leave level 7 before they finish book 2. I'm currently GMing way of the wicked at level 18. And notice I said wizards dont run out of spells beyond level 7-9. In a AP, that's less than half the books
Ok... either we played different APs or you use the fast XP track... by the end of book 2 we usually barely hit level 6 ???
My DM said her AP will take us to level 15 max (Skulls&Shackles).The AP I am DMing clearly states that the 6th (and last) book is intended for level 11-13 (Council of Thieves).
For PFS, maybe you could eventually become level 12... but afaik most PFS games play till level 6-8 max.
I hope that crafter wizard does craft stuff for his teammates too? Oh, let me guess, he asks full price from his friends and adds the difference 50% to his own wealth? ...- Pearls of Power is 1,000 gp... see my wall of text about WBL.
it's 500 if yiu craft it yourself. For the cost of a +1 longsword and +1 full plate you can craft SEVEN of them.
he'll craft for free, but won't take craft armor and weapons. You still get 7 pearls for the cost of a +1 weapon and armor.
Sure and at the first few levels he'll waste 1 of his spells for mage armor and defensive buffs or eat dirt quite a lot... Our group doesn't get to block hallways with 2 melee guys all the time. Also our enemies are smart enough to try an sniper the spellcasters that don't wear armor. Usually casters are dangerous, it's up to the party to work together... as a team.
Also our group often wins the surprise, but sometimes they don't. At that point the casters are happy to have an melee guy dragging the attention to themselves.
Imho a good DM should provide all sorts of different encounters, use terrain/weather/... experience different situations...
a scroll of mage armor last 1 hour and cost 12.5 gp.
Ok... either we played different APs or you use the fast XP track... by the end of book 2 we usually barely hit level 6 ???
My DM said her AP will take us to level 15 max (Skulls&Shackles).
The AP I am DMing clearly states that the 6th (and last) book is intended for level 11-13...
i use medium track. Kingmaker, curse of crimson throne, rise if runelords, shattered star, the reign of winter... all of them break 15th. CoUncil of thieves is the exception, nit the average
a scroll of mage armor last 1 hour and cost 12.5 gp.
12,5 * three encounter you should have each day * three for each level up
you are blowing ~100gp into crafting at level 1, just for your defense...on top of those 100gp, you have to make/buy the scrolls for when you run out of offensive spells
yes, at later levels 100gp matters less, but with that same money fighters can buy single use stuff (alchemical items, ...), too.
i use medium track. Kingmaker, curse of crimson throne, rise of runelords, shattered star, the reign of winter... all of them break 15th. Council of thieves is the exception, not the average
Ok... either we played different APs or you use the fast XP track... by the end of book 2 we usually barely hit level 6 ???
My DM said her AP will take us to level 15 max (Skulls&Shackles).
The AP I am DMing clearly states that the 6th (and last) book is intended for level 11-13...
Jade Regent stops at 15, too.
Rise of the Runelords ends at 15.Crimson Throne ends at 16.
The others start their last book with the characters being level 15...
By the time wizards have 7 pearls of power, fighters should have quite a bunch of magic items, that allow them to pull of neat tricks, too.
Also by level 7-9 fighterish classes should have finished their combat-trick-feat-chain and be good at what they do...?
@gustavo iglesias
I still feel like either your DM balances encounters in a bad way, thus makes things easy for spellcasters and/or party wealth is distributed in weird ways.
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Kyoni, your argument seems to be that rogues are great at low levels. And that's generally true, because until skills get obsoleted and monster hp start growing exponentially past your ability to sneak attack, and casters are running around with defenses that outright negate sneak attack (such as any form of concealment), you are doing fine.
But the differences between classes multiplies as you level up, and that's a design failure, because a 12th level rogue should contribute just as much to the team as a 12th level wizard or cleric -- that's what character level means. If the rogue is contributing only half as much at that point (and that's being generous, given his current state at 12th level), then he's only worth half a teammate. And that means he's failing as class -- both individually AND with the team.
So, if you're playing E6, the rogue is an excellent class. But Pathfinder is an E20 game, and the rogue starts lagging too far behind, long before that, to be considered well-designed.
Finally, and I can't say this enough, the DM's job should be to run the game, not spend all his efforts skewing things in order to make the rogue feel useful. If the rules as written don't work the way they are without massive and one-sided DM intervention, then they fail as a rule set, and need to be rewritten.
But the differences between classes multiplies as you level up, and that's a design failure, because a 12th level rogue should contribute just as much to the team as a 12th level wizard or cleric -- that's what character level means. If the rogue is contributing only half as much at that point (and that's being generous, given his current state at 12th level), then he's only worth half a teammate. And that means he's failing as class -- both individually AND with the team.
So, if you're playing E6, the rogue is an excellent class. But Pathfinder is an E20 game, and the rogue starts lagging too far behind, long before that, to be considered well-designed.
I don't play E6... you could say I play E15... Even at those levels the wizards/sorcerers/witches NEED rogueish and fighterish classes.
Finally, and I can't say this enough, the DM's job should be to run the game, not spend all his efforts skewing things in order to make the rogue feel useful. If the rules as written don't work the way they are without massive and one-sided DM intervention, then they fail as a rule set, and need to be rewritten.
There is a difference in
- running a dungeon with tight corridors and beating up s!@* behind doors with an easy-to-do line of defense- running an adventure where your party will run into terrain/weather conditions that make things harder for ranged characters from time to time
If as part of your AP, you have to cross a windy chasms... sure you could just say ok the wizard can fly to the other side, or you could say no, the winds are too strong, somebody has to climb to the other side. It's not even cheating... chasms are ofter very windy. The wizard will still get to use his fly spell on other occasions.
In "Darkmoon Vale" at some point you meet a nasty undead in the middle of a foggy area... spellcasters have to go into melee to hurt that guy, otherwise they can't see him. Or they can do AoE attacks and risk hitting their friends.
The main thing with weather/terrain is to be realistic... make it feel real... versimilitude.
a scroll of mage armor last 1 hour and cost 12.5 gp.12,5 * three encounter you should have each day * three for each level up
you are blowing ~100gp into crafting at level 1, just for your defense...on top of those 100gp, you have to make/buy the scrolls for when you run out of offensive spells
yes, at later levels 100gp matters less, but with that same money fighters can buy single use stuff (alchemical items, ...), too.
You are making a ton of assumptions there. First, you don't have tofight am encounter in the mornig, then another one in the evening and a last one at night. Specially at level 1. Takee for example rise of runelords. You have 3-4 encounters with goblins, but a single mage armor cover you for the tgree/four. Also, you don't need to cast mage armor in every combat. You can survive just finecwithout it (several mages don't even take it). A sleep spell often protects you better.
Rise ends at 18 in the AE edition.i use medium track. Kingmaker, curse of crimson throne, rise of runelords, shattered star, the reign of winter... all of them break 15th. Council of thieves is the exception, not the average
Ok... either we played different APs or you use the fast XP track... by the end of book 2 we usually barely hit level 6 ???
My DM said her AP will take us to level 15 max (Skulls&Shackles).
The AP I am DMing clearly states that the 6th (and last) book is intended for level 11-13...Jade Regent stops at 15, too.
Rise of the Runelords ends at 15.
Crimson Throne ends at 16.
The others start their last book with the characters being level 15...
By the time wizards have 7 pearls of power, fighters should have quite a bunch of magic items, that allow them to pull of neat tricks, too.
No. A single +1 sword amd +1 full plate = 7 pearls.
@gustavo iglesias
I still feel like either your DM balances encounters in a bad way, thus makes things easy for spellcasters and/or party wealth is distributed in weird ways.
I feel your caster players suck at optimizing, and buy/craft s#&@ty items instead of tgings like pearls of power. Our WBL is distributed evenly, to the last piece of copper. And we run the encounters at the pace that the AP sets them.
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If as part of your AP, you have to cross a windy chasms... sure you could just say ok the wizard can fly to the other side, or you could say no, the winds are too strong, somebody has to climb to the other side. It's not even cheating... chasms are ofter very windy. The wizard will still get to use his fly spell on other occasions.
Rules cover that. It's nit that hard fly check, unless you are in a gurricane. If you are, then climbing isn't easy either. So Dimensional Door.
In "Darkmoon Vale" at some point you meet a nasty undead in the middle of a foggy area... spellcasters have to go into melee to hurt that guy, otherwise they can't see him. Or they can do AoE attacks and risk hitting their friends.
gust of wind.
Rules cover that. It's nit that hard fly check, unless you are in a gurricane. If you are, then climbing isn't easy either. So Dimensional Door.
If as part of your AP, you have to cross a windy chasms... sure you could just say ok the wizard can fly to the other side, or you could say no, the winds are too strong, somebody has to climb to the other side. It's not even cheating... chasms are ofter very windy. The wizard will still get to use his fly spell on other occasions.
You have to dim. door the entire group... (including familiars/animal companions, NPCs if there are any) that's again quite a bunch of spells per day used in no time.
In "Darkmoon Vale" at some point you meet a nasty undead in the middle of a foggy area... spellcasters have to go into melee to hurt that guy, otherwise they can't see him. Or they can do AoE attacks and risk hitting their friends.gust of wind.
for this specific guy? nope, and we were level 3... sure they wizard can waste 1 of his 2, maybe 3, 2nd level spells to ready it, but time is an issue (resting is sparse)
- resting is not an option since a little boy is to be sacrificed in 1,5 days and we still have to clear quite a bit of dungeon before we reach him
A single +1 sword and +1 full plate = 7 pearls.
I'd rather buy single-use stuff instead of upgrading a fullplate to +1, if I barley have the money for it. Does that mage have bracers of armor? or a ring of protection?
don't the encounters have some kind of ranged capability to make sure spellcasters have to worry about more then just maxing their damage?
I guess we really play very different games. In the games I play/master rogues/fighter are as useful as everybody else... even at level ~12...
level 17? I can't say.
You have to dim. door the entire group... (including familiars/animal companions, NPCs if there are any) that's again quite a bunch of spells per day used in no time.
no you don't. You only need to cast several DD if your party carry dead weight (also known as fighters and rogues). A party with a magus, synthesist, bard, wizard and cleric does not force the wizard to cast multiple DD, because all chars cobtribute to yhe party resources, instead of having three of them which only drain everybody else resources.
In any case, a wizard doing two trips with DD to carry the NPC, familiars, mounts and animal companions is a MUCH better option that a fighter rolling climb while carrying wwitha mount, an NPC, a familiar and an animal companion in his back. All of that in the middle of a hurricane.
In "Darkmoon Vale" at some point you meet a nasty undead in the middle of a foggy area... spellcasters have to go into melee to hurt that guy, otherwise they can't see him. Or they can do AoE attacks and risk hitting their friends.gust of wind.for this specific guy? nope, and we were level 3... sure they wizard can waste 1 of his 2, maybe 3, 2nd level spells to ready it, but time is an issue (resting is sparse)
** spoiler omitted **
you never memorize gust of wind. You carry it in a scroll.
A single +1 sword and +1 full plate = 7 pearls.I'd rather buy single-use stuff instead of upgrading a fullplate to +1, if I barley have the money for it. Does that mage have bracers of armor? or a ring of protection?
of course he doesn't buy sucky items like bracers of armor. Only dumb wizards buy that. Pearls of power are much better.
don't the encounters have some kind of ranged capability to make sure spellcasters have to worry about more then just maxing their damag
sure they do. That's why spells like solid fog are sooooo good.
I guess we really play very different games. In the games I play/master rogues/fighter are as useful...
of course they are, when the wizard player suck horribly at optimizing and buy trash items like bracers of armor.
And nobody says a fighter can't do things. Being there, draw attacks, and hit stuff is pretty useful. It's only that inquisitors, synths, magus, druids, combat clerics and battle oracles wipe the flor with them and are much better party assets
you never memorize gust of wind. You carry it in a scroll.In "Darkmoon Vale" at some point you meet a nasty undead in the middle of a foggy area... spellcasters have to go into melee to hurt that guy, otherwise they can't see him. Or they can do AoE attacks and risk hitting their friends.gust of wind.for this specific guy? nope, and we were level 3... sure they wizard can waste 1 of his 2, maybe 3, 2nd level spells to ready it, but time is an issue (resting is sparse)
** spoiler omitted **
the spoilers explain why your scroll would be wasted.
Does that mage have bracers of armor? or a ring of protection?
of course he doesn't buy sucky items like bracers of armor. Only dumb wizards buy that. Pearls of power are much better.
So why should a fighter get a fullplate +1 when a potion of barkskin can do the job much better?
of course they are, when the wizard player suck horribly at optimizing and buy trash items like bracers of armor.
And nobody says a fighter can't do things. Being there, draw attacks, and hit stuff is pretty useful. It's only that inquisitors, synths, magus, druids, combat clerics and battle oracles wipe the flor with them and are much better party assets
I guess our wizards just optimize as much as our fighters/rogues do... all those half-casters have to few feats/level to get maneuver feats (or the intimidate line or other stuff like this) quickly enough. There is more to combat then dishing out dmg and taking damage... :-( but I guess at this point I'll just give up convincing you because our playstyles and DMing is too different to be comparable.
Also our enemy spellcasters know how to use counterspelling (or spellturning or crowd controlling) as well as our spellcasters do.
that only proves my point, magic is way better than martial. "Nuclear weapons aren't better than bayonets, becouse the other guy can have nuclear weapons tooAlso our enemy spellcasters know how to use counterspelling (or spellturning or crowd controlling) as well as our spellcasters do.
Counterspelling means you automatically lose your turn in exchange for a chance that the other caster will maybe lose his turn. If this seems like a good deal to you, I don't know what to say.
Counterspelling means you automatically lose your turn in exchange for a chance that the other caster will maybe lose his turn. If this seems like a good deal to you, I don't know what to say.
it is, if you have numeric superiority. However, that's a strength of magic, not a weakness. Casters are who coubterspell
Anyone figure out a good rogue build yet?
challenge accepted
So... what you want a rogue do to be a good build?
So... what you want a rogue do to be a good build?
Better in melee combat than a Bard, by a significant margin.
Can do atleast 75% the damage of a Fighter while sneak attacking, (checkpoints for this are lvl 10 and lvl 20)Is not a strength rogue. Dex based is critical.
Is stealthy and can steal.
At level one has atleast a +7 in perception.
*Would be nice but not required: Uses poison, and has UMD;