This added nothing to the conversation.You aren't part of a conversation, a conversation involves an exchange of ideas, you are only interested in people agreeing with your 'one true way'.
I'll leave you and MrSin to keep chatting :)
What the... You haven't been reading. All I was trying to say is the two-handed strength rogue shouldn't be the only effective build. You keep saying that if you want to be combat effective dex should not be your highest stat. I think that is fundamentally wrong and not how most-to-any average player plays a rogue.
I forgave DEX/WIS monk for being a trap. But having DEX rogue being a trap is ridiculous.
But hell, why am I bothering? You have already quit the conversation and just pop back in to troll it with condescending remarks and happy faces.
Reached 1000ish post.
I don't believe in a one true way thing btw.
No one said that! I was saying DEX rogue should be the most effective combat option. But, I would settle for it not being a trap.
EDIT: Also curse you for your thousandth post. I've been waiting all night for it to reach 1000. I need to get off these forums...
No one said that! I was saying DEX rogue should be the most effective combat option. But, I would settle for it not being a trap.Reached 1000ish post.
I don't believe in a one true way thing btw.
I didn't think anyone said it really. Was responding to Shifty claiming I had. Really insulting when someone says you only know one way to play you know.
No one said that! I was saying DEX rogue should be the most effective combat option. But, I would settle for it not being a trap.
That's not what you said.
Dex rogue should not only be a way to play rogue, it should be THE way. That is what rogues are.
That is what you said.
Pretty clear cut.
I didn't think anyone said it really. Was responding to Shifty claiming I had. Really insulting when someone says you only know one way to play you know.No one said that! I was saying DEX rogue should be the most effective combat option. But, I would settle for it not being a trap.Reached 1000ish post.
I don't believe in a one true way thing btw.
I was really rooting for shifty to pull out a decent rogue build that wasn't a half-orc barbar with sneak attack. I've only wanted someone to justify the rogues existence as a PC class. Every decent combat focused build so far has either been breaking the rules or is a low-dex rogue. Fantasy lore suggest that there is clever and quick combatants that rival the more brutish ones. And yet the rogue fails to deliver that in pathfinder.
No one said that! I was saying DEX rogue should be the most effective combat option. But, I would settle for it not being a trap.
That's not what you said.
Dex rogue should not only be a way to play rogue, it should be THE way. That is what rogues are.That is what you said.
Pretty clear cut.
No I told you what I said. Now your just picking on my grammar and word choice. When someone clarifies what they said to you. You shouldn't pretend it still means something different.
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I thought you were trying to take both traits. I understand now.All of them are still trait bonuses, and therefore don't stack, so while you can choose more than one of those, one of them will be a waste of space.He still has incompatible traits. Yes I realize that is easy to get around, but I like picking nits.Um. You can. The swashbuckler archetype allows you to take It twice. If you're going finesse, take finesse rogue as a rogue talent and get three feats in exchange for tricks. Try again.You can't take both Reactionary and Killer and you can't take Combat Trick more than once. Thank you for playing, please try again.@Wraithstrike
Dude... it's a 20 point buy. I just keep copying and pasting the old stats.Str 16 10 points
Dex 16 10 points
Con 10
Int 12 2 points
Wis 12 2 points
Cha 7 -4 points+2 Str (human bonus), +2 strength (Level 4, Level 8), +2 str (crappy belt of STR for good measure)
** spoiler omitted **
Did he specify swashbuckler archetype, because I didn't see it in his build.
Just checked again. Nothing about the swashbuckler archetype. So that would make his build illegal.
Or you could just apply the Swashbuckler archetype.
Hermean Paragon (PFS)
Chance Saviour (non-PFS)Now he has his +2 Initiative and can still take Killer.
what the-
No.
EITHER of them works to replace Reactionary. One I believe is PFS legal. The other is not.
cool, time to hug it out
Hi5
So, I know PF Society banned them, but in the interest of shifting this topic around and around, would the OP like to consider the skills capabilities of a Half-Elf Synthesist Summoner w/ Int 20 and tons of Skilled evolutions? I don't think that's been thoroughly discussed yet, in the line up of "better rogues."
cool, time to hug it out
Hi5
I think that would be the best way to this thread.
So, I know PF Society banned them, but in the interest of shifting this topic around and around, would the OP like to consider the skills capabilities of a Half-Elf Synthesist Summoner w/ Int 20 and tons of Skilled evolutions? I don't think that's been thoroughly discussed yet, in the line up of "better rogues."
Synthesist is banned.
If it and Master summoner wasn't banned, this thread would have never existed. I would have just played a master summoner (I love summoning, but a 1-roud action takes forever!)
EDIT: Bah my reading skills, first glance I thought PFS banned them was directed at something else.
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So, I know PF Society banned them, but in the interest of shifting this topic around and around, would the OP like to consider the skills capabilities of a Half-Elf Synthesist Summoner w/ Int 20 and tons of Skilled evolutions? I don't think that's been thoroughly discussed yet, in the line up of "better rogues."
Seriously. No. Start another thread or something. This has gone on too long!
Hug it out, and be done!
So, I know PF Society banned them, but in the interest of shifting this topic around and around, would the OP like to consider the skills capabilities of a Half-Elf Synthesist Summoner w/ Int 20 and tons of Skilled evolutions? I don't think that's been thoroughly discussed yet, in the line up of "better rogues."
only if you dip paladin
So, I know PF Society banned them, but in the interest of shifting this topic around and around, would the OP like to consider the skills capabilities of a Half-Elf Synthesist Summoner w/ Int 20 and tons of Skilled evolutions? I don't think that's been thoroughly discussed yet, in the line up of "better rogues."only if you dip paladin
Hmmmm, but would it be a viable skill monkey? I'll have to see the build. Since the summoner is less bardy with its spell list, I'm sure it will fit the concept better.
EDIT: Why is the dip in paladin necessary?
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So, I know PF Society banned them, but in the interest of shifting this topic around and around, would the OP like to consider the skills capabilities of a Half-Elf Synthesist Summoner w/ Int 20 and tons of Skilled evolutions? I don't think that's been thoroughly discussed yet, in the line up of "better rogues."only if you dip paladinHmmmm, but would it be a viable skill monkey? I'll have to see the build. Since the summoner is less bardy with its spell list, I'm sure it will fit the concept better.
EDIT: Why is the dip in paladin necessary?
Only to make it less bardy, obviously.
Nonononononono
CHA based synergy, check it BAM
sorry that is the alcohol talking
I have no idea why to dip Paladin. Cha to saves isn't worth the lag in levels.
Build would basically be Str 7, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 14 or similar.
Use the favored class bonus for more evo points. Pick up Skilled for each skill you want to be uber at. Not much else to it, skills-wise...
nonononononono
now imagine if you had those mental stats with a paladin while also being able to dump all the physical stats to increase them, only to replace them with Synthesist physical stats in the big three, Dex, Str, Con.
YOU ARE SITTING ON A GOLDMINE, TREBEK
I have no idea why to dip Paladin. Cha to saves isn't worth the lag in levels.
Build would basically be Str 7, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 14 or similar.
Use the favored class bonus for more evo points. Pick up Skilled for each skill you want to be uber at. Not much else to it, skills-wise...
Ah but skill monkeys also have to be combat hero's to stay relevant in combat focused games that make up the entirety of pathfinder role-playing.
nonononononono
now imagine if you had those mental stats with a paladin while also being able to dump all the physical stats to increase them, only to replace them with Synthesist physical stats in the big three, Dex, Str, Con.
YOU ARE SITTING ON A GOLDMINE, TREBEK
Brilliant!!!! Best rogue is a paladin!
/thread
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The reason why STR build rogues beat DEX build rogues is not a fault of the class. Aside from certain kensai builds, a DEX based character will always be less effective in combat than STR. Pathfinder did take steps to improve this with the agile weapon enhancement, but still a STR fighter can get keen. Plus, a DEX build is worthless without their agile weapon. DEX builds normally favor TWF (a sub-optimal combat role to begin with) which means even more money and game time spent acquiring two agile weapons without which you are even less effective. The list goes on...
To fix this they should have taken the que from the Conan d20 game. In that game, certain weapons were inherently finessable. The feat Weapon Finesse did not exist. Then they should've added the feats "Weapon Finesse" letting you add Dex instead of Str to damage with finessable weapons and "Unatural Finesse" letting you apply the finesse property to one weapon which normaly does not get it.
The reason why STR build rogues beat DEX build rogues is not a fault of the class. Aside from certain kensai builds, a DEX based character will always be less effective in combat than STR. Pathfinder did take steps to improve this with the agile weapon enhancement, but still a STR fighter can get keen. Plus, a DEX build is worthless without their agile weapon. DEX builds normally favor TWF (a sub-optimal combat role to begin with) which means even more money and game time spent acquiring two agile weapons without which you are even less effective. The list goes on...
To fix this they should have taken the que from the Conan d20 game. In that game, certain weapons were inherently finessable. The feat Weapon Finesse did not exist. Then they should've added the feats "Weapon Finesse" letting you add Dex instead of Str to damage with finessable weapons and "Unatural Finesse" letting you apply the finesse property to one weapon which normaly does not get it.
Fair enough. Something more doable for pathfinder is for weapon finesse to allow the addition of dex to hit and to damage. The agile property would allow you to add both strength and dex to damage roles and thus become less mandatory.
Ideally though sneak attack should be enough damage to make TWF worth it. I don't really like the idea of dex adding to damage roles, but that has more to do with a rewrite of monk class that I have been thinking about than any sort of flavor or mechanical reason.
As an aside.
Why did no one ever consider a wand of flame blades?
Nothing in the spell description says you can't dual wield them.
They're touch attacks.
They're scimitars meaning that by virtue of dervish dance they are finessable and you can add your dex to damage.
Sneak attack is not prohibited on touch attacks.
15,000 gold for touch attack weapons that can SA. With greater invisibility (somehow) you have to break an AC of 10. I'm liking the sound of that. And we're adding dex damage.
Oh and is PFS legal. You still would take -4 to hit instead of minus two and the off-hand would add 1/2 dex to damage. Still going to hit pretty much every attack.
Well folks there you have it. The op board has delivered. We have the high dex high DPR rogue build we have been looking for and is cheaper to pull off than traditional TWF builds.
(Now find a way to use both wands before combat begins.)
Oh and wouldn't this essentially be a jedi build? Rogue = Luke Skywalker
So what this means is that there are multiple ways to play a Rogue, and that Dex builds are certainly one way (that works) and there are other ways (that work).
Nice to know.
Dervish dance only works if your other hand does not have a weapon, so you could only use one flame blade, not dual wield.
Dervish dance lets you use your Dex "instead" of Str for damage (and attack). Since Str does not add to the damage of the flame blade, replacing Str with Dex wont make your Dex add to damage.
Still, provided you are flanking or whatnot, they would allow you to Sneak Attack on touch AC. Come to think of it, so would Guns...
Dervish dance only works if your other hand does not have a weapon, so you could only use one flame blade, not dual wield.
Dervish dance lets you use your Dex "instead" of Str for damage (and attack). Since Str does not add to the damage of the flame blade, replacing Str with Dex wont make your Dex add to damage.
Still, provided you are flanking or whatnot, they would allow you to Sneak Attack on touch AC. Come to think of it, so would Guns...
You have a point, my bubble has been burst. Back to the drawing board. Guns are nice, but you can't flank with a range weapon which would make something like greater invisibility more necessary.
Hey, I know it is incredibly dumb and obviously not intended, but can someone explain to me, from a rules perspective, why absolutely regular touch attacks would not deal sneak attack damage?
"The rogue's attack deals extra damage .. anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC ... or when the rogue flanks her target."
As written, it appears that rogues can: flank, do a touch attack, then deal damage for no sensible reason.
No its completely intended. There have been various debates about all kinds of rays and touch spells with sneak attack (most notable scorching ray).
Nonono I didn't make myself clear. I just mean touching people. Not delivering spells or special abilities through touch attacks, just "attacking" someone with a touch.
So, level 1, why can't a rogue walk up to flat-footed people and go "I do a touch attack for 1d6 sneak attack damage!"
Ah but skill monkeys also have to be combat hero's to stay relevant in combat focused games that make up the entirety of pathfinder role-playing.I have no idea why to dip Paladin. Cha to saves isn't worth the lag in levels.
Build would basically be Str 7, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 14 or similar.
Use the favored class bonus for more evo points. Pick up Skilled for each skill you want to be uber at. Not much else to it, skills-wise...
The physical stats are low b/c they get replaced anyway.
Skilled will "only" be needed like half a dozen times to cover all your skills, so you can still grab some more natural attacks and pounce is only 1 point, etc...
Ah but skill monkeys also have to be combat hero's to stay relevant in combat focused games that make up the entirety of pathfinder role-playing.I have no idea why to dip Paladin. Cha to saves isn't worth the lag in levels.
Build would basically be Str 7, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 14 or similar.
Use the favored class bonus for more evo points. Pick up Skilled for each skill you want to be uber at. Not much else to it, skills-wise...
The physical stats are low b/c they get replaced anyway.
Skilled will "only" be needed like half a dozen times to cover all your skills, so you can still grab some more natural attacks and pounce is only 1 point, etc...
Alright it goes on the list of things that invalidate the rogue.
Markthus did you see my build I posted?
Yeah. You have a lot of damage built in, but your to-hit is low. +1 weapons really hurt DPR. Weapon finesse as a rogue talent instead of a first level feat, make you useless for a level. I really don't see the point in criting as a rogue since SA damage is unaffected.
Piranha Strike actually hurts DPR since to-hit roles take a penalty.
Markthkus if the to-hit is high enough Pirahna Strike can be helpful. It depends on the build. I did not see BD's build. I will look for it again and run the numbers on it.
Instead of menacing it's better to go with a +2 agile weapon. I also dont know if Keen beats a straight +1.
If you have sizeable sneak attack, any penalty to hit is basically ensured to tank your DPR unless you were in the extreme ranges of only missing on 1 or hitting on 20. Each -1 is -5% to your total damage.
Put menacing on a necklace instead, if you aren't too busy with that slot. Amulet of Mighty fist is great for enchantments that don't actually require you to use the weapon.
I would say it depends on the GM style. I for one like running games where no sword is drawn and no blood is spilt.
You may KNOW Lord Teller is evil and is consorting with Devils, but if you attack him with out proof you will be outlawed and have the whole Kingdom trying to kill you. A proper built skill Monkey can go get the proof.
Menacing. I like that. How much would the necklace cost? a +2 to-hit roles is huge for a rogue.
4000 gold. Also helps everyone else flanking. You can add additional enchants onto it to, and some work really well, if a little insane because the thing was meant for melee weapons.
Instead of menacing it's better to go with a +2 agile weapon. I also dont know if Keen beats a straight +1.Menacing doubles the flanking bonus. Why wouldn't you put it on a weapon as soon as possible? Especially since it's a build where you're mainly getting sneak attack from flanking?
Oh and Mrkthus, it's a PFS character, so you take weapon finesse feat for all of level 1 then before you play at level 2 you rebuild and take a different feat and take finesse rogue.
Also, the character has +12 to hit (+11) with piranha strike. What's the average AC and flat footed AC of CR 11 and 12 monsters?
A menacing weapon helps allies deal with flanked foes. When the wielder is adjacent to a creature that is being flanked by an ally, the flanking bonus on attack rolls for all flanking allies increases by +2. This ability works even if the wielder is not one of the characters flanking the creature.
It does not help the rogue. It helps the others.
We'll need a ruling for that one. Any FAQs about it?