How useless is a skill monkey rogue?


Advice

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Lamontia wrote:
Lamontius wrote:
Lamontia wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Archetypes should be used to create a character who's customized to be more appealing. Not something necessary to be useful. I find the feint chain to be a little too intensive myself.
Personally, I do too. Also, my Cha is a little lacking, so I tend to go for a more "in your face" approach. :)But it's another option that is available.

Lamontia plays her character's low CHA by stabbing things that my character is trying to use Diplomacy with, preferably while also having her character make fun of mine for being a goody-two-shoes and stealing my lunch money.

That only happened once, Lamontius. You need to move on already. Geeze.

I would, but the body of the unarmed woman your character stabbed to death is blocking the doorway.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Archetypes should be used to create a character who's customized to be more appealing. Not something necessary to be useful. I find the feint chain to be a little too intensive myself.

Everyone assumes that a barbarian takes pounce. Which is technically an archetype. Without all the archetypes the barbar is just a worse so many rounds per day fighter.

Some archetypes just become part of the class.

I'd argue he's better. His saves beat out the fighter by a mile, as does his HP. If his damage is lower, which it usually isn't, its only slightly.

So almost equivalent DPR
Less AC
Higher HP
DR/-
More skills
Better Class skill list
Immunity to sneak attack/loss of dex
Faster moving.
VASTLY BETTER SAVES

Yeah he's a worse fighter. You know it, I know it, we all know it.

Less AC and limited rounds of almost as good dpr. Less feats and immunity against something this thread has deemed sub-par. Saves are a wash. Fighter can just grab save boosting feats and over come the plus 2 bars get from raging. So limited rounds of better saves vs a fighter static bonus. Bars needed pounce and superstition and DR to get ahead of the fighter for so many rounds per day.


Lamontius wrote:
I would, but the body of the unarmed woman your character stabbed to death is blocking the doorway.

Does it make me a bad person for laughing at that?


Marthkus wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Erm... Pounce isn't an archetype. Its a rage totem line. Most of the Rage totem lines suck. Fiend totem may as well be NPC only because it doesn't dictate friend from foe. I would rather open up all rage totem lines than for no reason at all claim you can only get one at a time. Putting the word totem after it doesn't make it special...
Totem barbarian is an archetype that only replaces rage powers, and is not particular about which rage powers you replace.

Totem barbarian isn't a real archetype though... Which is another problem entirely.

Sczarni

Lamontius wrote:
Lamontia wrote:
Lamontius wrote:
Lamontia wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Archetypes should be used to create a character who's customized to be more appealing. Not something necessary to be useful. I find the feint chain to be a little too intensive myself.
Personally, I do too. Also, my Cha is a little lacking, so I tend to go for a more "in your face" approach. :)But it's another option that is available.

Lamontia plays her character's low CHA by stabbing things that my character is trying to use Diplomacy with, preferably while also having her character make fun of mine for being a goody-two-shoes and stealing my lunch money.

That only happened once, Lamontius. You need to move on already. Geeze.
I would, but the body of the unarmed woman your character stabbed to death is blocking the doorway.

She DESERVED it!

Seriously, what kind of hero for shining good are you, anyway? Silver Crusade... Diploming with an Aspis Consortium summoner after she attempted (and failed) to murder us. Really, Lamontius, it is incredibly apparent that you're not filling out at least one part of that shiny full plate you're wearing.

(Wow, how do you make me so mean??? hahahahaha)

Sczarni

Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Lamontius wrote:
I would, but the body of the unarmed woman your character stabbed to death is blocking the doorway.
Does it make me a bad person for laughing at that?

Not at all! I laughed, too. I laughed as I hid incriminating documents on her cold, dead body! Ha! ;)


Better than the time I tried to kidnap a hobgoblin for medical services. It was to cure a disease, I swear! Also they paid me. Very well!

Sczarni

MrSin wrote:
Better than the time I tried to kidnap a hobgoblin for medical services. It was to cure a disease, I swear! Also they paid me. Very well!

Oh, Hobgoblins... Do they really even count as people? I'm sure that there are no rules against that Mr Sin. Carry on.

:D


Well if walls don't count as people I'll be glad to take those too... Also something I get paid very well to steal.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Lamontius wrote:
I would, but the body of the unarmed woman your character stabbed to death is blocking the doorway.
Does it make me a bad person for laughing at that?

Absolutely.

Sovereign Court

Yes, I CAN tweak the build to be a super-effective mega-flanking sneak attacker, but I have to make sacrifices to do so. My main point is that the bard really didn't have to make many sacrifices to become better at my core skills and even ignores a primary class feature without impacting his effectiveness.

BTW, Lamontia please post a complete level 6 build to show me how I should have built my swashbuckler rogue. I want to know.


Marthkus wrote:
limited rounds of almost as good dpr

Barbarian Rounds of rage last much longer than any wizard, magus, paladin, or any casting class. Aka you will effectively never run out of rage before your party rests. NEVER.

Marthkus wrote:
Less AC

Congrats, less AC. Unfortunately most things that are meant to hit you are GOING TO HIT YOU. Unless you focus a good deal on defense (i.e. sword and board instead of two handed)

In exchange at level 20 a barbarian with a furious weapon and the raging vitality feat (available at level 1), gets a +12 to con, aka 120 extra hp and the ability to keep raging while down. Then you've got the 20 for the HD (140 total)... hmmm which would I take 10 extra AC or DR 5/- and 140 HP. I wonder.

Marthkus wrote:
Saves are a wash

Saves are not a wash

Fighter
6 (base)+ 5 cloak of resistance + 2 iron will +1 Indomnitable faith

14 Will Save

Barbarian
6 (base)+ 5 Cloak + 7 Superstition + 4 Rage + 2 Furious weapon +1 Indomnitable Faith

25 Will save

Its a wash until you get greater rage. Its a wash until you get a furious weapon. Its a wash until you get superstition. After that the barbarian will beat out most full casters in will saves and easily everyone in the game in fort saves.

Just as a further little spit in the face. Furious weapon at +5 gives a +5 against fear. It not only equals iron will, gives a further +2 strength and con, it also completely negates Bravery. For a +1 Cost.

On a side note Barbarian's get rage powers that allow them two extra save PER RAGE. Versus the fighter's 1/day with improved iron rage.

Marthkus wrote:
Less feats

Feats are weaker than rage powers. There's a reason that almost every barbarian spends half their feats + on rage powers. Witch Hunter at level 20 is about equivalent to 2 more things of power attack at no cost of to hit against nearly everything.

Sneak attack is horrible, but the inability to ever lose dex is nice, and being immune to sneak never hurt anyone.

Edit: The spit in the face was to fighters not you.


Nebelwerfer41 wrote:

Yes, I CAN tweak the build to be a super-effective mega-flanking sneak attacker, but I have to make sacrifices to do so. My main point is that the bard really didn't have to make many sacrifices to become better at my core skills and even ignores a primary class feature without impacting his effectiveness.

BTW, Lamontia please post a complete level 6 build to show me how I should have built my character.

I wounder why your player friend decided to usurp your character like that. The rules will never be perfect. Outside of the whine-fest that is the forums we have to be able to adapt and use them correctly. Like not build a character that makes another character redundant.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
limited rounds of almost as good dpr

Barbarian Rounds of rage last much longer than any wizard, magus, paladin, or any casting class. Aka you will effectively never run out of rage before your party rests. NEVER.

Marthkus wrote:
Less AC

Congrats, less AC. Unfortunately most things that are meant to hit you are GOING TO HIT YOU. Unless you focus a good deal on defense (i.e. sword and board instead of two handed)

In exchange at level 20 a barbarian with a furious weapon and the raging vitality feat (available at level 1), gets a +12 to con, aka 120 extra hp and the ability to keep raging while down. Then you've got the 20 for the HD (140 total)... hmmm which would I take 10 extra AC or DR 5/- and 140 HP. I wonder.

Marthkus wrote:
Saves are a wash

Saves are not a wash

Fighter
6 (base)+ 5 cloak of resistance + 2 iron will +1 Indomnitable faith

14 Will Save

Barbarian
6 (base)+ 5 Cloak + 7 Superstition + 4 Rage + 2 Furious weapon +1 Indomnitable Faith

25 Will save

Its a wash until you get greater rage. Its a wash until you get a furious weapon. Its a wash until you get superstition.

Feats are weaker than rage powers. There's a reason that almost every barbarian spends half their feats + on rage powers. Witch Hunter at level 20 is about equivalent to 2 more things of power attack at no cost of to hit against nearly everything.

Sneak attack is horrible, but the inability to ever lose dex is nice, and being immune to sneak never hurt...

We were talking CRB and you used archetypes and splatbooks to prove your point.


Marthkus wrote:
We were talking CRB and you used archetypes and splatbooks to prove your point.

Really? I don't see anywhere in your statement that said Core. Barb's kick fighters butt's hands down nowadays. Besides, I have yet to meet someone that doesn't consider APG, Handbook, and the Ultimate combat and magic to be true Core. Never seen anything from any of them disallowed.

Edit: And I didn't use an archetype! I didn't even use totem powers there. That is a completely standard Barbarian. You don't have to be superstitious barbarian to take the superstitious rage power.


Superstitious is CRB, Beast Totem is APG.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
We were talking CRB and you used archetypes and splatbooks to prove your point.
Really? I don't see anywhere in your statement that said Core. Barb's kick fighters butt's hands down nowadays. Besides, I have yet to meet someone that doesn't consider APG, Handbook, and the Ultimate combat and magic to be true Core. Never seen anything from any of them disallowed

Mr. Sin said he didn't like archetypes being needed to make a class useful. I pointed to the barbarian as the class that uses archetypes to be useful.


Marthkus wrote:
Mr. Sin said he didn't like archetypes being needed to make a class useful. I pointed to the barbarian as the class that uses archetypes to be useful.

Like I said, no archetype on that. I didn't even give him the beast totem there. Didn't even mention pounce.

Sovereign Court

Marthkus wrote:


I wounded why your player friend decided to usurp hour character like that. The rules will never be perfect. Outside of the whine-fest that is the forums we have to be able to adapt and use them correctly. Like not build a character that makes another character redundant.

I don't think it was intentional on his part. He hasn't played with us for a half a year and just got back into the game two weeks ago. Contrary to what has been suggested by others, I do talk to other players in the group, but they aren't actively watching this thread to reply in real time.


Lamontia wrote:


Sneak attack is TOTALLY situational!

...Like when I get it on every single charge, because I am a Scout...or how I ALWAYS get to charge because I took Improved Overrun and Charge through on my Scout...or how I have a +15 Acrobatics so I can almost always get a flank...or how I took Friendly Switch, so if that stupid Bard is in my spot, I kick him and his d4 sneak attack dice, out of the way.

....Oh wait, the player makes the situation??? Lamontius's sarcasm is rubbing off on me. ;)

Nothing situational about needing a straight line to the enemy through non-difficult terrain to get one sneak attack ...


MrSin wrote:
Superstitious is CRB

Yep my bad. Totems are still technically an archetype.


Marthkus wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
We were talking CRB and you used archetypes and splatbooks to prove your point.
Really? I don't see anywhere in your statement that said Core. Barb's kick fighters butt's hands down nowadays. Besides, I have yet to meet someone that doesn't consider APG, Handbook, and the Ultimate combat and magic to be true Core. Never seen anything from any of them disallowed
Mr. Sin said he didn't like archetypes being needed to make a class useful. I pointed to the barbarian as the class that uses archetypes to be useful.

I didn't say anything about archetypes in the past few post! Did you mean Thomas?

I know someone who does consider CRB only to be core.


Marthkus wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Superstitious is CRB
Yep my bad. Totems are still technically an archetype.

MY GOD MAN. READ. I DIDN'T USE A SINGLE FREAKING TOTEM FOR ANY OF THAT.


To be fair, I wasn't aware that this was "Core only" either. Maybe I missed that.

Also, why the hell "Core only"? I never understood this limitation.

Core is the most unbalanced book of all! it has Wizards, Clerics and Druids running side by side with Fighters, Rogues and pre-errata vanilla
Monks!

"Core only" casters have access to Improved Initiative, Combat Casting, Toughness, Defensive Combat Training, Natural Spell, Spell Penetration and Quicken Spell.
Not to mention spells like Freedom of Movement, Wish, Gate, Summon Monster 1~9, Teleport, etc...

But even if we ignore casters, "Core only" Barbarians still outperform Fighters most of the time, IMO.

Core only barbarian still has Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge, more/better skills, DR and access to Superstition.

Also, by 4~5th level, rage rounds per day are more than enough.

Fighters are not masters of fighting, they're masters of standing still and full-attacking.


You made me create this optimized Rogue:

Human Rogue 10
(25 point buy)

Str 22 Dex 16 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 12 Cha 7
BAB +7
Initiative: +9
Sneak Attack: +5d6
Traits: Reactionary, Killer
Rogue Talents:Combat Trick, Combat Trick, Powerful Sneak, Deadly Sneak
Advanced Rogue Talents:
Feats - Weapon Focus (Sap), Improved Initiative, Skill Focus (Stealth), Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting,Improved Shield Bash, Shield Focus, Armor Proficiency (Medium)
Skill Points:100
+3 Sap (18k), +2 Merciful Heavy Shield (18k) Cloak of the Elvenkind(2.5k), Belt of Giant Strength +2 (4k) +3 Mithral Breastplate, +8500 GP in "Other Gear"

I am the alpha strike, I start combat.
Surprise Round: Opening Attack (Charge from the darkness with sap) +21 (32.5 20/x2, +45 sneak attack average)
Against an AC 24, that' is (.9(77.5)+(.05)(.9)(32.5))
Average Alpha Strike Damage: 71 Non-Lethal

Round 1, I gain initiative or target denied dex or flanking. We will call it a flat +2 to my attack for any of those to make it easy and average it out.

+17/+12 (1d6+29 20/x2, +45 sneak)
+16/+11 (1d3+1d6+28 20/x2, +45 sneak)

(.7(77.5)+.05(.7)(34.5)) = 54 + 1 = 55
(.65(78.5)+.05(.65)(35.5)) = 51 + 1 = 52
(.45(77.5)+.05(.45)(34.5)) = 35 + 1 = 36
(.4(78.5)+.05(.4)(35.5)) = 31 + 1= 35

Average Round 1 Damage = 178 Non-Lethal

There you have it folks, High Skill, Decent AC Rogue, low HP, alpha strike rogue that can knock people the @#$% out for 249 Non Lethal Damage by the end of Round 1.


Marthkus wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Superstitious is CRB
Yep my bad. Totems are still technically an archetype.

You do not have to be a totem warrior to select totem rage powers.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Superstitious is CRB
Yep my bad. Totems are still technically an archetype.
MY GOD MAN. READ. I DIDN'T USE A SINGLE FREAKING TOTEM FOR ANY OF THAT.

So what a barbar without pounce is just a limited rounds per day almost as good DPR fighter. Worse AC is offset by DR and extra health. You got some better saves vs magic, but the fighter can just prevent them from casting spells. Then there is feats vs rage powers. On average I like feats better. They aren't a limited resource like rage.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Breathe. It's really not worth the aneurism.

Sczarni

Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Lamontia wrote:


Sneak attack is TOTALLY situational!

...Like when I get it on every single charge, because I am a Scout...or how I ALWAYS get to charge because I took Improved Overrun and Charge through on my Scout...or how I have a +15 Acrobatics so I can almost always get a flank...or how I took Friendly Switch, so if that stupid Bard is in my spot, I kick him and his d4 sneak attack dice, out of the way.

....Oh wait, the player makes the situation??? Lamontius's sarcasm is rubbing off on me. ;)

Nothing situational about needing a straight line to the enemy through non-difficult terrain to get one sneak attack ...

Or, as I said, a straight line *through* another enemy.... But sure, I will give it to you, I only get to roll my 4d6 of weapon and precision damage off a charge the majority of the time. The rest of the time, I try to get sneak attack the more traditional way. Like jumping onto a table in a square the fighter can't occupy to get flank.


Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Superstitious is CRB
Yep my bad. Totems are still technically an archetype.
You do not have to be a totem warrior to select totem rage powers.

Except that you are one once you do take one of those powers.


Marthkus wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Superstitious is CRB
Yep my bad. Totems are still technically an archetype.
MY GOD MAN. READ. I DIDN'T USE A SINGLE FREAKING TOTEM FOR ANY OF THAT.
So what a barbar without pounce is just a limited rounds per day almost as good DPR fighter. Worse AC is offset by DR and extra health. You got some better saves vs magic, but the fighter can just prevent them from casting spells. Then there is feats vs rage powers. On average I like feats better. They aren't a limited resource like rage.

All of which the barbarian gains access to as well. All of those feats can be taken as rage powers bypassing any prereqs on them.

So all those anticaster feats your fighter has? Barbarian gets them too. Not to mention the ability to sunder their buffs right off their body, something a fighter CAN'T do.

And yeah, feats are worse almost universally than rage powers. I've been playing barbarians for 6 years. I rage every round of combat. I have yet to run out of rage.


Jess Door wrote:
Breathe. It's really not worth the aneurism.

I had to repeat the line 3-4 times before he would even bother to read it! Jesus he sat there and kept chanting HE USED AN ARCHETYPE HE USED AN ARCHETYPE HE USED AN ARCHETYPE. Gods, so annoying, I'm literally starting to tearing out my hair in frustration.


Lamontia wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Lamontia wrote:


Sneak attack is TOTALLY situational!

...Like when I get it on every single charge, because I am a Scout...or how I ALWAYS get to charge because I took Improved Overrun and Charge through on my Scout...or how I have a +15 Acrobatics so I can almost always get a flank...or how I took Friendly Switch, so if that stupid Bard is in my spot, I kick him and his d4 sneak attack dice, out of the way.

....Oh wait, the player makes the situation??? Lamontius's sarcasm is rubbing off on me. ;)

Nothing situational about needing a straight line to the enemy through non-difficult terrain to get one sneak attack ...
Or, as I said, a straight line *through* another enemy.... But sure, I will give it to you, I only get to roll my 4d6 of weapon and precision damage off a charge the majority of the time. The rest of the time, I try to get sneak attack the more traditional way. Like jumping onto a table in a square the fighter can't occupy to get flank.

It's not like a Scout Rogue plays like a one-trick pony, just a' scout-chargin' every single turn over and over. Scout's Charge just adds one more tool to the arsenal of ways to put as many SA dice on the table as you can in as many turns as you can.

Lamenting about difficult terrain and Scout's Charge is like saying a paladin is useless because not all enemies are evil and they can't smite some things so there goes their entire class.

awesome, I feel like everytime I mention paladins I might as well just be saying weeaboo


Lamontia wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Lamontia wrote:


Sneak attack is TOTALLY situational!

...Like when I get it on every single charge, because I am a Scout...or how I ALWAYS get to charge because I took Improved Overrun and Charge through on my Scout...or how I have a +15 Acrobatics so I can almost always get a flank...or how I took Friendly Switch, so if that stupid Bard is in my spot, I kick him and his d4 sneak attack dice, out of the way.

....Oh wait, the player makes the situation??? Lamontius's sarcasm is rubbing off on me. ;)

Nothing situational about needing a straight line to the enemy through non-difficult terrain to get one sneak attack ...
Or, as I said, a straight line *through* another enemy.... But sure, I will give it to you, I only get to roll my 4d6 of weapon and precision damage off a charge the majority of the time. The rest of the time, I try to get sneak attack the more traditional way. Like jumping onto a table in a square the fighter can't occupy to get flank.

Getting through an enemy? Oh, I thought you were just using Charge Through as a quasi-exploit to give an ally a chance to step out of your way during a charge. What sort of CMB is a rogue sporting to be able to consider overrunning an enemy an, apparent, auto success?

Marthkus wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Superstitious is CRB
Yep my bad. Totems are still technically an archetype.
You do not have to be a totem warrior to select totem rage powers.
Except that you are one once you do take one of those powers.

That's not how archetypes work, you select your archetypes when you take your first level in the class, you don't gain them later.

APG wrote:

Rage Powers (Ex): The following new rage powers can be

taken by any barbarian that meets the prerequisites. Totem
rage powers grant powers in a theme. A barbarian cannot
select from more than one group of totem rage powers.
For example, a barbarian that selects a beast totem rage
power cannot later chose to gain any of the spirit totem
rage powers

Any barbarian can select Totem powers, this includes one who is not a Totem Warrior.

Lamontius wrote:

It's not like a Scout Rogue plays like a one-trick pony, just a' scout-chargin' every single turn over and over. Scout's Charge just adds one more tool to the arsenal of ways to put as many SA dice on the table as you can in as many turns as you can.

So you're saying it adds one more situation to the situations where a Rogue can sneak attack? Again, not at all situational ...


Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Lamontia wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Lamontia wrote:


Sneak attack is TOTALLY situational!

...Like when I get it on every single charge, because I am a Scout...or how I ALWAYS get to charge because I took Improved Overrun and Charge through on my Scout...or how I have a +15 Acrobatics so I can almost always get a flank...or how I took Friendly Switch, so if that stupid Bard is in my spot, I kick him and his d4 sneak attack dice, out of the way.

....Oh wait, the player makes the situation??? Lamontius's sarcasm is rubbing off on me. ;)

Nothing situational about needing a straight line to the enemy through non-difficult terrain to get one sneak attack ...
Or, as I said, a straight line *through* another enemy.... But sure, I will give it to you, I only get to roll my 4d6 of weapon and precision damage off a charge the majority of the time. The rest of the time, I try to get sneak attack the more traditional way. Like jumping onto a table in a square the fighter can't occupy to get flank.
Getting through an enemy? Oh, I thought you were just using Charge Through as a quasi-exploit to give an ally a chance to step out of your way during a charge. What sort of CMB is a rogue sporting to be able to consider overrunning an enemy an, apparent, auto success?

Work it through and take a look at the result of failing as a Scout build and what would happen in that case, too. There is no need for auto-success, in fact, a failure gets you essentially the result you want, as well.


I should point out that you can't have your cake and eat it as well.

You can't suddenly take the perfect archetype to deal with X challenge to your argument, and then take another to deal with Y challenge to your argument. In game, you can only have one archetype, for the most part, and its rare that you can have more.


Lamontius wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Lamontia wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Lamontia wrote:


Sneak attack is TOTALLY situational!

...Like when I get it on every single charge, because I am a Scout...or how I ALWAYS get to charge because I took Improved Overrun and Charge through on my Scout...or how I have a +15 Acrobatics so I can almost always get a flank...or how I took Friendly Switch, so if that stupid Bard is in my spot, I kick him and his d4 sneak attack dice, out of the way.

....Oh wait, the player makes the situation??? Lamontius's sarcasm is rubbing off on me. ;)

Nothing situational about needing a straight line to the enemy through non-difficult terrain to get one sneak attack ...
Or, as I said, a straight line *through* another enemy.... But sure, I will give it to you, I only get to roll my 4d6 of weapon and precision damage off a charge the majority of the time. The rest of the time, I try to get sneak attack the more traditional way. Like jumping onto a table in a square the fighter can't occupy to get flank.
Getting through an enemy? Oh, I thought you were just using Charge Through as a quasi-exploit to give an ally a chance to step out of your way during a charge. What sort of CMB is a rogue sporting to be able to consider overrunning an enemy an, apparent, auto success?
Work it through and take a look at the result of failing as a Scout build and what would happen in that case, too. There is no need for auto-success, in fact, a failure gets you essentially the result you want, as well.

No, no it doesn't. Failing the overrun stops your charge in its tracks. Now you're standing in front of the enemy that you wanted to charge through and have no actions (other than possible a swift) remaining and no flanking partner.


Piccolo wrote:

I should point out that you can't have your cake and eat it as well.

You can't suddenly take the perfect archetype to deal with X challenge to your argument, and then take another to deal with Y challenge to your argument. In game, you can only have one archetype, for the most part, and its rare that you can have more.

That's why my favorite archetype is Wiz 20.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Superstitious is CRB
Yep my bad. Totems are still technically an archetype.
MY GOD MAN. READ. I DIDN'T USE A SINGLE FREAKING TOTEM FOR ANY OF THAT.
So what a barbar without pounce is just a limited rounds per day almost as good DPR fighter. Worse AC is offset by DR and extra health. You got some better saves vs magic, but the fighter can just prevent them from casting spells. Then there is feats vs rage powers. On average I like feats better. They aren't a limited resource like rage.

All of which the barbarian gains access to as well. All of those feats can be taken as rage powers bypassing any prereqs on them.

So all those anticaster feats your fighter has? Barbarian gets them too. Not to mention the ability to sunder their buffs right off their body, something a fighter CAN'T do.

And yeah, feats are worse almost universally than rage powers. I've been playing barbarians for 6 years. I rage every round of combat. I have yet to run out of rage.

What games where 2 + con + 2/lvl has you never running out of rage? Especially at low levels. Even with all that your DPR still lags behind the fighter, if you don't have pounce.

Feats worse than rage powers? Step-up, combat reflexes, blind-fight, Improved critical, Stand still, and the crit focus chain? That's just in the CRB. Even more great options in the APG and UC.


MrSin wrote:

Well if you have a warrior at the table you have bigger problems.

Really though, the rogue does do much better if the other melee help him flank. This actually bothers me because it requires other people for him to do his job.

I used warrior to stand in for Paladin, Fighter, Ranger, Cavalier etc. Didn't want to type all that out, obviously.

Doesn't bother me in the slightest. Ex: Who would the Cleric buff if there wasn't anyone else in the party? Buffing himself only goes so far. These classes are made to work as part of a team.


Piccolo wrote:
MrSin wrote:

Well if you have a warrior at the table you have bigger problems.

Really though, the rogue does do much better if the other melee help him flank. This actually bothers me because it requires other people for him to do his job.

I used warrior to stand in for Paladin, Fighter, Ranger, Cavalier etc. Didn't want to type all that out, obviously.

Doesn't bother me in the slightest. Ex: Who would the Cleric buff if there wasn't anyone else in the party? Buffing himself only goes so far. These classes are made to work as part of a team.

Except cleric has full spell casting and does fine on his own. Rogues have no ways without investment to get a sneak attack off on their own. Those investments aren't always the best either, just look at improved feint which for some reason has a feat tax of its own! Feat taxes are bad mmkay?


Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Lamontius wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Lamontia wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Lamontia wrote:


Sneak attack is TOTALLY situational!

...Like when I get it on every single charge, because I am a Scout...or how I ALWAYS get to charge because I took Improved Overrun and Charge through on my Scout...or how I have a +15 Acrobatics so I can almost always get a flank...or how I took Friendly Switch, so if that stupid Bard is in my spot, I kick him and his d4 sneak attack dice, out of the way.

....Oh wait, the player makes the situation??? Lamontius's sarcasm is rubbing off on me. ;)

Nothing situational about needing a straight line to the enemy through non-difficult terrain to get one sneak attack ...
Or, as I said, a straight line *through* another enemy.... But sure, I will give it to you, I only get to roll my 4d6 of weapon and precision damage off a charge the majority of the time. The rest of the time, I try to get sneak attack the more traditional way. Like jumping onto a table in a square the fighter can't occupy to get flank.
Getting through an enemy? Oh, I thought you were just using Charge Through as a quasi-exploit to give an ally a chance to step out of your way during a charge. What sort of CMB is a rogue sporting to be able to consider overrunning an enemy an, apparent, auto success?
Work it through and take a look at the result of failing as a Scout build and what would happen in that case, too. There is no need for auto-success, in fact, a failure gets you essentially the result you want, as well.
No, no it doesn't. Failing the overrun stops your charge in its tracks. Now you're standing in front of the enemy that you wanted to charge through and have no actions (other than possible a swift) remaining and no flanking partner.

Read Charge Through.


Marthkus wrote:

What games where 2 + con + 2/lvl has you never running out of rage? Especially at low levels. Even with all that your DPR still lags behind the fighter, if you don't have pounce.

Feats worse than rage powers? Step-up, combat reflexes, blind-fight, Improved critical, Stand still, and the crit focus chain? That's just in the CRB. Even more great options in the APG and UC.

First of all 4 + Con.

2nd of all Dwarves and Half Orcs, some of the best races for Barbarians get 3/level for their favored Class bonus.

3rd of all. Combat reflexes? Are you serious? Blind fight (situational). Stand Still (situational).

Barbarian doesn't have to stop people from running past him. People focus barbarians. Step up can be nice, but frankly alot of people ultimately face the barbarian because he is the highest form of damage on most teams.

The things you worry about aren't melees running past, they're casters and ranged. And barbarians get pounce against that. Fighters get one attack. Meaning they'll basically need 2 rounds to kill people, one to move forward, one to full attack. Barbarians need one. and you forget witch hunter. above level 5 or so it procs on basically everyone. Meaning you'll get a further bonus to damage that fighters don't get.

Improved Critical? Barbarians take improved critical like every other martial in the game.

Edit:

Side note 1: Barbarians also have a trait just like fighters that's quite standard. Beserker of society. +3 Rounds of rage. 16 con half orc barbarian level 1. 11 rounds of rage. Pretty standard issue.

Side note 2: Witch Hunter, which as noted procs on nearly everyone, ends up at +6 to damage. A single rage power thats more powerful than weapon specialization and greater weapon specialization combined.


Lamontius wrote:
Read Charge Through.

I have, have you?

charge through wrote:

You can overrun enemies when charging.

Prerequisites: Str 13, Improved Overrun, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action. If you successfully overrun that creature, you can complete the charge. If the overrun is unsuccessful, the charge ends in the space directly in front of that creature.


yep, rather than your charge ending in the space directly in front of the other creature


Lamontius wrote:
yep, rather than your charge ending in the space directly in front of the other creature

Yes but you spent your turn charging the other creature. You don't get the attacks at that point. You weren't charging this creature and won't be treated as such.


Lamontius wrote:
yep, rather than your charge ending in the space directly in front of the other creature

What other creature?

You want to Charge Enemy A, Creature B is in you way so you try to use Charge Through.

When your overrun attempt of Creature B fails your Charge stops in front of Creature B.

Unless you're trying to suggest that failing to overrun Creature B somehow teleports you to where creature A is?

Sczarni

Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Lamontia wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Lamontia wrote:


Sneak attack is TOTALLY situational!

...Like when I get it on every single charge, because I am a Scout...or how I ALWAYS get to charge because I took Improved Overrun and Charge through on my Scout...or how I have a +15 Acrobatics so I can almost always get a flank...or how I took Friendly Switch, so if that stupid Bard is in my spot, I kick him and his d4 sneak attack dice, out of the way.

....Oh wait, the player makes the situation??? Lamontius's sarcasm is rubbing off on me. ;)

Nothing situational about needing a straight line to the enemy through non-difficult terrain to get one sneak attack ...
Or, as I said, a straight line *through* another enemy.... But sure, I will give it to you, I only get to roll my 4d6 of weapon and precision damage off a charge the majority of the time. The rest of the time, I try to get sneak attack the more traditional way. Like jumping onto a table in a square the fighter can't occupy to get flank.

Getting through an enemy? Oh, I thought you were just using Charge Through as a quasi-exploit to give an ally a chance to step out of your way during a charge. What sort of CMB is a rogue sporting to be able to consider overrunning an enemy an, apparent, auto success?

Marthkus wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Superstitious is CRB
Yep my bad. Totems are still technically an archetype.
You do not have to be a totem warrior to select totem rage powers.
Except that you are one once you do take one of those powers.

That's not how archetypes work, you select your archetypes when you take your first level in the class, you don't gain them later.

APG wrote:

Rage Powers (Ex): The following new rage powers can be

taken by any barbarian that meets the prerequisites. Totem
rage powers grant powers in a theme. A barbarian cannot
select from more than one group of totem rage powers.
...

The Overrun is not an auto-success, but I either get a charge with sneak attack off on my intended enemy, or a charge with sneak attack off on the enemy I attempted to overrun.

Benefit: When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action. If you successfully overrun that creature, you can complete the charge. If the overrun is unsuccessful, the charge ends in the space directly in front of that creature.

So, even though that enemy is say, 5 feet in front of me, I still get to charge it. If I do succeed on my overrun, they are knocked prone (you're welcome BSF, you. are. welcome. )


Lamontia wrote:

The Overrun is not an auto-success, but I either get a charge with sneak attack off on my intended enemy, or a charge with sneak attack off on the enemy I attempted to overrun.

Benefit: When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action. If you successfully overrun that creature, you can complete the charge. If the overrun is unsuccessful, the charge ends in the space directly in front of that creature.

So, even though that enemy is say, 5 feet in front of me, I still get to charge it. If I do succeed on my overrun, they are knocked prone (you're welcome BSF, you. are. welcome. )

It says the charge ends. It doesn't say you get the attacks from the charge on the person you failed to overrun.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Marthkus wrote:

What games where 2 + con + 2/lvl has you never running out of rage? Especially at low levels. Even with all that your DPR still lags behind the fighter, if you don't have pounce.

Feats worse than rage powers? Step-up, combat reflexes, blind-fight, Improved critical, Stand still, and the crit focus chain? That's just in the CRB. Even more great options in the APG and UC.

First of all 4 + Con.

2nd of all Dwarves and Half Orcs, some of the best races for Barbarians get 3/level for their favored Class bonus.

3rd of all. Combat reflexes? Are you serious? Blind fight (situational). Stand Still (situational).

Barbarian doesn't have to stop people from running past him. People focus barbarians. Step up can be nice, but frankly alot of people ultimately face the barbarian because he is the highest form of damage on most teams.

The things you worry about aren't melees running past, they're casters and ranged. And barbarians get pounce against that. Fighters get one attack. Meaning they'll basically need 2 rounds to kill people, one to move forward, one to full attack. Barbarians need one. and you forget witch hunter. above level 5 or so it procs on basically everyone. Meaning you'll get a further bonus to damage that fighters don't get.

Improved Critical? Barbarians take improved critical like every other martial in the game.

Edit:

Side note 1: Barbarians also have a trait just like fighters that's quite standard. Beserker of society. +3 Rounds of rage. 16 con half orc barbarian level 1. 11 rounds of rage. Pretty standard issue.

Side note 2: Witch Hunter, which as noted procs on nearly everyone, ends up at +6 to damage. A single rage power thats more powerful than weapon specialization and greater weapon specialization combined.

First 2 + con + 2/lvl is 4 + con at first level...

Once again you use pounce to justify yourself. I'm not arguing that pounce isn't sexy, but with out that a barbar is just a worse fighter.

If they are focusing the barbar they would focus the Fighter too since the fighter DPR is better than the barbars (baring pounce). Step-up is ultra sexy against those range/caster things your fighting. Combat reflexes allows those AOOs they generate to mean something. Stand still keeps their bruisers off your squishy.

Witch Hunter is totally situational and won't work against half the enemies you face.

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