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I will of course talk to my players, but i wanted to ask your esteemed opinion.
I am running rise of the runelords, and we just finished burned offerings.
One player has really taken the spotlight wih his unarmed focused ninja. He deals massive amounts of nonlethal damage with every hit, (30 to 50). Most encounters are done in one or two rounds with monsters being leisurely coupdegraced afterward.
They are fifth level at the moment.
I am not upset, much :) but i think that other players might get upset. They are fine now but their characters are ridiculously suboptomal compared to his. a rogue dual wielding rapiers, a fighter dual wielding warhammers, and a wizard who never gets the chance to use more then one spell. Oh and a cleric who is perfevtly fine to be a walking band aid/energy drink.
I will talk to the player, but i'd like to hear your opinions on the matter.
The players have themselves to blame for not doing their part.
I'm especially upset hearing that someone doesn't know how to play a Cleric.
And that is my opinion. I hope you have a talk with the other players as well about this, though.
One player has really taken the spotlight wih his unarmed focused ninja. He deals massive amounts of nonlethal damage with every hit, (30 to 50). Most encounters are done in one or two rounds with monsters being leisurely coupdegraced afterward.They are fifth level at the moment.
Those numbers seem kinda big. Sap Master/Sap Adept/Knockout Artist at level 5 does give +6d6+15 sneak attack, but only against flat-footed foes; on a flanking attack, it's only +3d6+6.
Hama,
I think you have the right of it from the start. Just chat with the players as a group. You've just finished the first book, so it's a great time to have some 'review' time the next chance you're all together. What did they especially like? What would they like to see more of, less of, etc. How did they feel about their PC's contribution?
You don't have to 'lead' them to feel there is an imbalance, but you can certainly broach the subject, especially from the standpoint of later challenges to the group as a whole. See if others are okay with the status quo. Maybe they are fine with the ninja as is but would like their own PCs to more optimized. Maybe other things come up.
1d8 for monk punch at 5?
16 or so strength? maybe 18 for +4
6d6 sneak attack because he runs in invisible and they're always flat-footed for sap master
+6 from knockout artist
+12 from sap adept
so 1d8+22+6d6.
Sounds about right to me...
How does it go on undead and constructs?
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Oohhh second adventure has undead. I forgot. He'll be less useful.
He's a ninja. He can become invisible.
I'm tryying to talk to the fighter character, but he never changes his biilds for anything.
The rogue does not know how to optimize. Not even for his life.
Cleric is a first timer, and to be honest, playing a walking band aid/energy drink is one of right ways to play a cleric. He fully focuses on support and healing and is pretty good at it.
The wizard is good. He knows how to play,wizards.
As for the ninja, he's so good at optimizing that he does it without thinking.
Vanishing Trick is the single thing that raises Rogues and Ninjas from the pit of sub-par. It shouldn't be taken away from the player.
however taking him out of his element every now and then, by emplyong some immune-to-crit enemies, or creatures with blindsense/-sight might add a little bit to the challenge of some battles.
Unfortunately that also hits the rogue character.
I think the best way towards a solution will still be a talk with the whole group. How they feel about the performance discrepancy between the ninja and the other characters.
If hey see it as a problem too, you could give them a few arbitrary boosts, as long as the ninja player is fine with that as well.
Are your players having fun? If yes, no changes. Maybe your "suboptimal" players enjoy not being counted on to succeed? Followers exist that enjoy being on a winning team without any game pressure.
Cheers
From the SRD
Invisible: Invisible creatures are visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). See Invisibility, under Special Abilities.
Sap Adept (Combat)
You know just where to hit to knock the sense out of your foe.
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +1d6.
Benefit: Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage, you gain a bonus on your damage roll equal to twice the number of sneak attack damage dice you rolled.
Sap Master (Combat)
You knock the sense out of foes with a well-timed surprise attack.
Prerequisites: Sneak attack +3d6, Sap Adept.
Benefit: Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage to a flat-footed opponent, roll your sneak attack dice twice, totaling the results as your nonlethal sneak attack damage for that attack.
Vanish does not seem to make your opponent flat-footed, so why would Sap Master apply?
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The other problem I have with characters built like your Ninja is no matter how hard you hit someone with a Sap, your hand, billy club, etc... If they are armored the non-lethal damage should be adjusted. Nualia wears a +1 breastplate. Hitting her in the chest or any other part of her body covered by armor with a sap is not going to do 50 points of damage, lethal or non-lethal. If he aimed for her head, that would be a called shot and the attack should be adjusted accordingly. If he tried to trip her that would be fine also, of course if anyone else is engaged in melee with her and she was tripped they might get entangled in her fall.
If your ninja PC wants to do massive amounts of non-lethal damage make him work for it. You dont have to break rules or nerf the character. Just use rules that lessen his impact and give the other players a chance to contribute.
As an aside it is characters like this one that make me dislike non-lethal damage. What's the difference between lethal and non-lethal damage if you are just going to coup de grace them? It just lets you abuse the rules especially at lower levels and it really does not add any realism to the game. You can kill someone with a punch especially if you are trained, which I am. It is very difficult to pull your punches with the intent of knocking your opponent out and if in a combat situation it is the LAST thing I would do. Most punches do lethal damage in real life, it just would be miniscule compared to the damage done by a weapon. If I pound someone with my fists the damage they are taking is very real and if I am not careful they will die. It isn't about lethal vs. non-lethal so much as the combatant knowing when to stop. If I were trying to render my opponent unconscious I am more likely to use grappeling moves which are just as lethal but give me more control over the damage I inflict and allow me to better gauge the consciousness of my opponent.
From a role playing standpoint, what are the alignments/personal codes of the other players? A LG player would probably have an issue with slitting the throat of an unconscious person. A fighter who believes in honorable combat would have issues with killing an unconscious enemy, especially if he wasnt involved in the combat because the ninja got to him first.
I am sorry for the long rant but I enjoy role-playing and characters like that sap all of the fun and pseudo-realism right out of the game for me. This guy didnt make a character that does non-lethal damage for a role-playing based reason. He made it because it does the most amount of damage possible period. And that isn't role-playing to me.
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There are no called shots in PF, unless you count the rules in UC, which IMO suck.
DR reduces nonlethal damage, and fast healing and regeneration heal the same amount of lethal and nonlethal damage every round.
PF is not reality. Hit points and both types of damage are abstractions.
He is Neutral.
He also role-plays his character pretty well.
I am not trying to lessen his fun, which he obviously has. I am trying to preemptively remove the problem of other players getting resentful.
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Thats why its part of a sneak attack... If he hits the breastplate full on its not a hit (Thats what the actual AC modifier is for).
I also have a ninja using this.
He is using Dragon Style, strength focused, has a trait that gives him a +1 unarmed damage, brawlers armor for another +2 damage, Amulet of mighty fists, Power attack and is using Sap adept (dont want to struggle to get the target flat.)
Not using TWF, so the amulet was rather expensive. Big loss in AC, but the damage output is nice. But it is kind of funny to be doing 1d3 loads + xd6 +2x damage. Sadly he has straight out killed npcs when the damage wrapped around :(
The other problem I have with characters built like your Ninja is no matter how hard you hit someone with a Sap, your hand, billy club, etc... If they are armored the non-lethal damage should be adjusted. Nualia wears a +1 breastplate. Hitting her in the chest or any other part of her body covered by armor with a sap is not going to do 50 points of damage, lethal or non-lethal. If he aimed for her head, that would be a called shot and the attack should be adjusted accordingly. If he tried to trip her that would be fine also, of course if anyone else is engaged in melee with her and she was tripped they might get entangled in her fall.
If your ninja PC wants to do massive amounts of non-lethal damage make him work for it. You dont have to break rules or nerf the character. Just use rules that lessen his impact and give the other players a chance to contribute.
As an aside it is characters like this one that make me dislike non-lethal damage. What's the difference between lethal and non-lethal damage if you are just going to coup de grace them? It just lets you abuse the rules especially at lower levels and it really does not add any realism to the game. You can kill someone with a punch especially if you are trained, which I am. It is very difficult to pull your punches with the intent of knocking your opponent out and if in a combat situation it is the LAST thing I would do. Most punches do lethal damage in real life, it just would be miniscule compared to the damage done by a weapon. If I pound someone with my fists the damage they are taking is very real and if I am not careful they will die. It isn't about lethal vs. non-lethal so much as the combatant knowing when to stop. If I were trying to render my opponent unconscious I am more likely to use grappeling moves which are just as lethal but give me more control over the damage I inflict and allow me to better gauge the consciousness of my opponent.
From a role playing standpoint, what are the alignments/personal codes of the other players? A LG...
There are quite a few points here with which i have to agree. Such as your judgment of the ninja's build and how it relates to role-playing.
I have to say about the first part though, that none of that is really in the rules. The game aside from the optional called shot rules does not differentiate hit zones or anything, and even the called shot rules completely disregard how armor actually covers or reveals different parts of the body.
Extra damage from things like critical hits and Sneak attack in the basic rules represent hitting spots that are particularly vulnerable to your attack or are vital to the creature in some sort of way. When you successfully hit someone with a nonlethal unarmed attack or sap, using sneak attack, you have to imagine that this attack was aimed for and successfully hit, a spot that can cause unconsciousness.
How this all relates to real-life combat, I can't tell, i have absolutely no training in any form of combat (aside from yellow-belt level Judo a good 15 years ago), but that is the intention.
Since the characters clearly want to be dual-wielding large weapons, you could tax them a feat to allow them to reduce the penalties. I have a homebrew feat for that purpose and it works fine. It's still not an optimal build but at least you can hit things and do a little more damage than you would otherwise.
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I wasn't claiming that PF is real.... I know it isn't nor do I want it to be. But there needs to be some realism. As a GM you have the ability to equalize the playing field. If you don't like the called shot rules or you don't have a problem with the ninja doing uber amounts of damage then you make a set of house rules that equalize the playing field. Ultimately what matters is that you and all of your PCs are having fun. If that is the case don't change a thing.
My earlier rant wasn't aimed at you or your PC playing the ninja, so please don't take it as a personal attack. Balancing realism with fantasy is a difficult proposition and each person and group has their tastes. I was merely voicing my opinions on what I believe are some rules that unbalance the game and render several of the core classes irrelevant. It really wasn't a commentary on your game.
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Oohhh second adventure has undead. I forgot. He'll be less useful.
He's a ninja. He can become invisible.
I'm tryying to talk to the fighter character, but he never changes his biilds for anything.
The rogue does not know how to optimize. Not even for his life.
Cleric is a first timer, and to be honest, playing a walking band aid/energy drink is one of right ways to play a cleric. He fully focuses on support and healing and is pretty good at it.
The wizard is good. He knows how to play,wizards.
As for the ninja, he's so good at optimizing that he does it without thinking.
The undead will even out real quick next book (Although, aren't you over level if you haven't gotten to skinsaw yet?)
Plus, he can only vanish so often.
From the SRD
Invisible: Invisible creatures are visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). See Invisibility, under Special Abilities.
Sap Adept (Combat)
You know just where to hit to knock the sense out of your foe.
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +1d6.
Benefit: Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage, you gain a bonus on your damage roll equal to twice the number of sneak attack damage dice you rolled.Sap Master (Combat)
You knock the sense out of foes with a well-timed surprise attack.
Prerequisites: Sneak attack +3d6, Sap Adept.
Benefit: Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage to a flat-footed opponent, roll your sneak attack dice twice, totaling the results as your nonlethal sneak attack damage for that attack.Vanish does not seem to make your opponent flat-footed, so why would Sap Master apply?
Hama, I concur with Cornielius. If the ninja is vanishing, he may be denying his opponent's Dex bonus to their AC, but they don't gain the flat-footed condition, thus Sap Master doesn't apply. The fluff text describes the intent as a "well-timed surprise attack".
Now, it's very likely that as a ninja he'll be able to get an attack off in either the surprise round or first round before the enemy has acted but it's a trick that will probably only work once per battle.
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I know its an AP (which i havnt played) but if the fights are not fun just add this feat on the boss.
Blind-Fight (Combat)
You are skilled at attacking opponents that you cannot clearly perceive.
Benefit: In melee, every time you miss because of concealment (see Combat), you can reroll your miss chance percentile roll one time to see if you actually hit.
An invisible attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you in melee. That is, you don't lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn't get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible. The invisible attacker's bonuses do still apply for ranged attacks, however.
You do not need to make Acrobatics skill checks to move at full speed while blinded.
Normal: Regular attack roll modifiers for invisible attackers trying to hit you apply, and you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC. The speed reduction for darkness and poor visibility also applies.
Special: The Blind-Fight feat is of no use against a character who is the subject of a blink spell.
You are flat footed only during the surprise round, during the first round when you didn't act yet or when you are helpless (immobilized, unconscious, bound, ...).
The rules in the PRD :
Flat-Footed: A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot be caught flat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat. A flat-footed character can't make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat.
Helpless defenders
A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy.Regular Attack: A helpless character takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks. In addition, a helpless character is treated as having a Dexterity of 0, giving him a –5 penalty to AC against both melee and ranged attacks (for a total of –9 against melee and –5 against ranged). A helpless character is also flat-footed.
They are the only way by RAW that make you flat footed.
Fighting someone invisible doesn't make you flat-footed, even against that particular opponent.
As others have pointed out, invisibility nor greater invisibility render people flat-footed. It removes their dexterity bonus to AC. While regular sneak attack damage only requires that a character be denied their dex to AC, SAP master actually requires flat-footed. Denied dex does not equal flat-footed. Without some additional feats and methods to cause flat-footedness your ninja should only be getting one ultrahigh non-lethal sneak attack per encounter. This should quickly even things out, but probably make your player balk when you explain that denied dex =/= flat-footed.
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Good to know. That'll reduce his damage output a bit. Great. Evening the playing field a little is good.
The undead will even out real quick next book (Although, aren't you over level if you haven't gotten to skinsaw yet?)
Plus, he can only vanish so often.
Actually we began skinsaw, and they got to the
I might look to exchange some dumb feats for blind fight, if it fits the concept.
EDIT: Just talked to the player, he's a little bummed out that sap master doesn't always work, but it's ok. I think with this change, that we'll be fine.
From the SRD
Invisible: Invisible creatures are visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). See Invisibility, under Special Abilities.
Sap Adept (Combat)
You know just where to hit to knock the sense out of your foe.
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +1d6.
Benefit: Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage, you gain a bonus on your damage roll equal to twice the number of sneak attack damage dice you rolled.Sap Master (Combat)
You knock the sense out of foes with a well-timed surprise attack.
Prerequisites: Sneak attack +3d6, Sap Adept.
Benefit: Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage to a flat-footed opponent, roll your sneak attack dice twice, totaling the results as your nonlethal sneak attack damage for that attack.Vanish does not seem to make your opponent flat-footed, so why would Sap Master apply?
Hama, I concur with Cornielius. If the ninja is vanishing, he may be denying his opponent's Dex bonus to their AC, but they don't gain the flat-footed condition, thus Sap Master doesn't apply. The fluff text describes the intent as a "well-timed surprise attack".
Now, it's very likely that as a ninja he'll be able to get an attack off in either the surprise round or first round before the enemy has acted but it's a trick that will probably only work once per battle.
Yep. Confusing Flat Footed vs " losing dex". Happens a lot, due to 3.5 vs PF confusions.
So, OP, recheck his build, inform him about this, and remember that later spellcasters will rule the game.
You can always put in an extra mook that he gets to brain at the start of every fight. He'll walk away proud and you never have to tell him the truth.
Good to know. That'll reduce his damage output a bit. Great. Evening the playing field a little is good.
Another important thing to remember is that Non Lethal damage is essentially it's own damage track seperate from lethal damage.
So this ninja is not adding damage onto creatures the others are hitting for lethal damage.
If your group is all doing lethal and only the monk is doing non lethal then he has do to all the creatures HP is damage himself to knock them out while the other characters all have to do the same amount of damage to the same creature to kill it. The two types do not stack to determine when the creature goes down. They apply concurrently.
So if the entire party hits monster X and ends up doing all but 3 of it's HP in damage and your monk comes up and hits monster X for non lethal damage equalling all but 5 of it's HP the monster is still up and fighting.
Good to know. That'll reduce his damage output a bit. Great. Evening the playing field a little is good.Another important thing to remember is that Non Lethal damage is essentially it's own damage track seperate from lethal damage.
So this ninja is not adding damage onto creatures the others are hitting for lethal damage.
If your group is all doing lethal and only the monk is doing non lethal then he has do to all the creatures HP is damage himself to knock them out while the other characters all have to do the same amount of damage to the same creature to kill it. The two types do not stack to determine when the creature goes down. They apply concurrently.
So if the entire party hits monster X and ends up doing all but 3 of it's HP in damage and your monk comes up and hits monster X for non lethal damage equalling all but 5 of it's HP the monster is still up and fighting.
No...
They're tracked separately, but a mixture of lethal and nonlethal will still render a creature staggered or unconscious.
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I believe this:
If the players are having fun, all of them, then who cares.
But, if the GM isn't having fun either, there's a problem.
I, as a GM, don't WANT to kill the players, but I do want them to be challenged. If they aren't challenged and kill everything quickly, this sucks for me as a GM. It gets boring and tedious and the adventures are fast paced as the characters level too quickly.
But if the GM and players are having fun, just go with it.
It can be annoying when a player has a perfect configuration for their character, and sometimes this is attributed to a rule being overlooked or done incorrectly. Most often, in my experience, the player has just figured out a great way to play and build that character, and if all rules are being abided by, then the player should not be penalized. The job of the GM is to just keep the encounters challenging.
Up the challenge level for the group by adding a monster or two or changing a few stats. Doing this for a preset set of monsters like in RotRL can be a challenge for GMs though, as we need to be careful not to over do it.
RotRL is a game I am running currently. The players wiped the first chapter and all died. However, I allowed new characters to be made and gained levels to begin chapter 2 at 2 levels higher than they should. Now they are wiping the board. I think it will equalize as we continue, because the monsters appear to become a lot more difficult.
Dot