I am preparing for a campaign I want to run and it will focus heavily on fighters, barbarians, rogues, and rangers (with sorcerers and oracles also being around).
The biggest issue I've found is what to do with rangers? They can track and run and get passive bonuses against favored enemies, but how often do you really have to track something? For a campaign in tribal societies, rangers are a perfect fit and should play a major role, but what would they really be doing, except being a weaker fighter? Barbarians have rage and can be the parties strongman, by breaking things, toppling constructions, and shoving stuff over ledges, which actually does come very handy in a lot of situations. And rogues are rogues.
Most characters I've played where rangers and I really enjoy the theme a lot, but none of them really had anything particularly useful to contrivute to the party except chipping away at enemies as the fighters little sidekick.
Scrapping together all Archery options I could find would be one way, but I would like rangers to focus more on being skilled nature guys. If a fighter wants to, he could do all the archery stuff as well, plus more.
Playing a ranger, you have to trust your GM to make an adventure that matches the PCs, and not just making his own thing in a vacuum, forcing the players to rely on luck t see if the builds they choose end up being relevant.
As long as you encounter your favored enemy periodically and work in your favored terrain here and there, Rangers are no less helpful than fighters or barbarians. Talk to your GM and make sure the adventure is going to allow you to use your sneaky tracking and hunting abilities. If the whole thing is just going to be Storming the Castle and you only encounter humans (and you picked elves), it's the GM's fault for not advising you on that.
I am the GM. And I am wondering how to make the rangers being major contributors.
Tell us more about the campaign, the setting, etc.
Give us the facts and informaton about your game so that we can help you.
1st to 8th level range; PB 15; 4 + Int Skill points for Fighters and Sorcerers; no prestige classes; no alignment.
Only basic magic items (+1 weapons, +2 ability score items, energy resistance, etc.), accordingly few treasure (since there isn't much to buy).
Mostly humanoids and magical beasts (with few or no magical abilities); lots of fey and native outsiders; combat preferedly avoided if there are easier alternatives.
The goals of adventures would be mostly along the line of finding specific items, obtaining knowledge, or removing a threat. Killing of people or monsters would not be the main goal.
I think that mostly covers it.
I don't understand the OP's question. properly build, a ranger can do just about everything a rogue can, with usually superior fighting capacity. They are likewise about on a par with fighters, although they aren't as durable - but they have far superior skill options and more points to spend on them. Barbarians and rogues should also be pretty comparable in both skills and laying the smack down.
if you want to create a more unique niche for a ranger, consider the animal companion. With the Boon Companion feat they are sufficiently durable to be very good scouts. Sure, taking that plus the feat will reduce pure combat options, but it really pushes rogues far out of the way when it comes to scouting. It also combines well with a primitive society (totem animal etc) - or you can take a horse! Rangers mae for decent cavalry. Not as good as paladins, but again, they have better skills.
As you can see, rangers shine in role flexibility. Personally, I love the class, but YMMV of course.
The issue I see with rangers as guides is the same as with hackers in cyberpunk games. While the ranger is doing his stuff with tracking and finding paths, the rest of the party just keeps walking behind him. Either the party arrives at the correct spot, or they show up in a different spot. But the other players have no real incentive to pay attention to what's going on and could - hypothetically - even leave the room and come back without having to be briefed on what they missed.
It's a decent class over all. But when I look at the abilities, I am wondering why it would be a better idea to take more than 3 or 4 levels instead of multiclassing into Fighter or Rogue?
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Have you looked into the Spell-less Ranger from Kobold Press?
New Paths #1: The Expanded Spell-less Ranger
Maybe they might fit your campaign even better than a standard ranger ...
Kind of funny to me that someone would post that Rangers are under powered and are more of a side-kick.
Rangers are very flexible and can fill different roles like scouts, guides, infiltrators, front line fighters wielding two weapons or a two-handed weapon, they can be badass archery-focused, they can be skill-monkeys, they get favored enemies (more Damage!), favored terrains, they get a nice animal companion (if they want), they get spells to augment themselves (gravity bow and aspect of the falcon were already mentioned) and their animal companions, and they are just overall a great class in the game. They have always been one of my favorites and I have to check myself to not always try to play one and play outside of my comfort zone.
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The issue I see with rangers as guides is the same as with hackers in cyberpunk games. While the ranger is doing his stuff with tracking and finding paths, the rest of the party just keeps walking behind him. Either the party arrives at the correct spot, or they show up in a different spot. But the other players have no real incentive to pay attention to what's going on and could - hypothetically - even leave the room and come back without having to be briefed on what they missed.
It's a decent class over all. But when I look at the abilities, I am wondering why it would be a better idea to take more than 3 or 4 levels instead of multiclassing into Fighter or Rogue?
Just have monsters ambush them from behind once or twice, or have them try to find the way without someone in the party with Survival. They'll learn to pay attention and appreciate a ranger real fast. (And of course, no scout will perceive everything - roll perception for the scout privately so no one's ever quite certain they're safe.)
It sounds like picking a humanoid or fey favored enemy will be plenty effective for your campaign. Rangers may be slightly weaker than a fighter in a vacuum, but once they start getting major bonuses against, say, all fey, magical beasts, and native outsiders, you might start reevaluating. Not to mention they can cast any spell off the ranger list! I can guarantee the next full BAB class I play will be a ranger.
Yeah, the track is no longer a ranger benefit. Virtually any druid out-tracks a ranger, and plenty of clerics and inquisitors do as well. [This is mainly caused by the fact that most Rangers need a variety of stats, so their Wisdom tends to be much lower than that of more caster-oriented characters.]
My interest isn't so much in combat power, but finding things to do specifically for a ranger.
In what situations are you going to say "damn, I really wish we had a ranger in the party now"? Except when you want to track, I don't see much use in having a ranger in the group, instead of another fighter or rogue.
Wait, are we talking about the same ranger class here?
Because when i last checked rangers were a Full BAB, Good Reflex and Fort class with 6 Skill points/Level, medium armor and martial wepon proficiency that can cast spells and get an animal companion.
What can a ranger NOT do?
They are not only good at tracking but all outdoor activities, they can be as stealthy as they want, while still capable of holdign their own in open combat, their spells and skill points give them various utility purposes (not only stealth and survival, but also spellcraft, various knowledge skills, mobility (swim, acrobatics, climb) and they make awesome archers or hatever you want their combat style to be.
Well there is the spell instant enemy that makes favored enemy MUCH more powerful. It is like ranger smite really. With favored defense its even better. So a few times a day a ranger can pick an enemy they are very powerful against. That makes them the best BBEG fighter on your list.
There is the wide range of archetypes. My favorite being spirit ranger (spontaneously cast a few spells a day.) and Infiltrator (trade favored terrain for at will buffs that are much more useful.)
They also can get the feat shield master much sooner then any other class. Making them a far better shield user then any other class. (twf with sword and board plus instant enemy is much like a smiting paladin. Save for the target does not have to be evil.)
So they have consistent normal damage unlike a rogue that misses a lot and has to be set up just right. Then they have spike damage that will top the other classes you listed (save for maybe Barb. Not really in the mood to break down the math.) favored enemy is not really so minor. Since they can put all the bonuses into one if they like there is the potential of +10/+10.
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Err also something I failed to notice. You list of classes leaves well no healing other then ranger and maybe oracles? (not sure if around means PCs will or won;t be allowed to play them.)
This gives ranger a bit more value too. Frankly I would drop a rogue any day before a ranger. SA is a very weak mechanic.
Coming at this from the combat side of things ( because I think Rangers got the "nature guy" side well covered ), I think that the very exclusive nature of the Favored Enemy class feature is the problem.
While I think that the Guide archetype offers a decent alternative, its limitation to a few opponents per day ( and inability to benefit from the Instant Enemy spell later on ) presents its own set of problems.
A solution could be to broaden the "Ranger's Focus" ability of the Guide to an entire sub-set of enemies ( i.e. Giants, Humanoid (Goblinoids), etc. ), instead of just one single enemy and keep it active until the Ranger changes it again? Well, that's just off the top of my head, so maybe it could be a bit too good.
The Instant Enemy spell clears up the "exclusive nature" of the Favored Enemy mechanic.
Only to an extent. It is still limited by spells per day and only functions for one single enemy.
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Yeah, the track is no longer a ranger benefit. Virtually any druid out-tracks a ranger, and plenty of clerics and inquisitors do as well. [This is mainly caused by the fact that most Rangers need a variety of stats, so their Wisdom tends to be much lower than that of more caster-oriented characters.]
Actually, rangers get half their level to Survival skill checks made to track. That alone makes them the kings of tracking, not accounting for the favored terrain, quarry, improved quarry, and master hunter class features. Plus the ranger gets gets an animal companion buddy that can track by scent.
Rangers are better trackers than druids are, Wisdom scores be damned.
Daron Woodson
Abandoned Arts
Well, getting those +2/+2 - +10/+10 bonuses all day long against everything would be a little.... op?The Instant Enemy spell clears up the "exclusive nature" of the Favored Enemy mechanic.Only to an extent. It is still limited by spells per day and only functions for one single enemy.
That would heavily depend on how homogenous/heterogenous the GM is mixing the enemy groups. As it is now, Rangers completely depend on the whim of the GM, giving the class some greater flexibility would alleviate this some. The Inquisitor, to name the best comparison to the Ranger, does not depend at all on GM whim.
Aside from the Paladin, none of the other classes have a large part of their bonuses completely negated when the mix of monsters gets a bit more varied. And I think "evil alignment" is a bit more common than even "undead" or "Humanoid (human)".
I am the GM and I am very much inclined to provide any ranger in the party plenty of opportunities to shine at ranging.
And that really is the main issue here. Apart from using a lot of creatures of the favored enemy type and planting lots of tracks, I really don't have much ideas.
But tracking is only a dice role without any real opportunity for the player to make descisions or consider his options, and favored enemy is a flat nummerical bonus that does not give the player any chance do anything special. If anything, in a mixed group of enemies, the ranger is going to focus entirely on those which he has as favored enemies, but effectively that gives the player even less options. Instead of "which one do I attack so it benefits our teamwork best?", the player is faced with "which one do I attack so it benefits our teamwork best, but it has to be either the worg or the owlbear?". If you have favored enemy giants, and there is one giant in the group, of course you would drop everything and try to full attack that giant as much as possible so it doesn't get killed by someone else in the group. Because you have one really good ability that may not come up that often, so damn it if you don't use any opportunity you can get. That's not fun.
As I said, maybe try to substitute Favored Enemy with a more inclusive Ranger's Focus ability ( from the Guide archetype ).
As for including more "Ranger friendly" adventure components, everything which happens in the wilderness ( encounters with wild animals, surviving in the wilderness, weather dangers, getting lost and so on ) are parts which make the experience fun. Sure, most of it can be handled with "I roll Survival", but make the player try to explain what he does, so that he can get more into his character.
If he has an animal companion, how does he interact with it? How does the world at large interact with it? A lot of people here favor wolves, because they are really good in combat ( especially when they get large size ). How does the world react to the Ranger running around with a giant wolf?
Are there fey in the woods? How does the Ranger interact with them? Has the Ranger adopted a certain region as "his own"? How do the inhabitants of said region deal with him? Has the character build a reputation in the region? Is his reputation of a reliable guide or an excentric loner?
There's a lot of stuff to do with a Ranger, but it comes at the prize of having to get into the real nitty-gritty of the world which surrounds him, just like with the other classes. If the party just moves from dungeon to dungeon, the Ranger feels like a nature based combat Rogue.
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Urban is a Favored Terrain choice, as is underground. The Ranger can track in those as well.
Also, the Freebooter is another non-Favored Enemy Ranger archetype that is decent.
You assume that all of his abilities are only viable in a wilderness terrain.
This is a false assumption.
There is even the Urban Ranger archetype.
I am talking about the "general" Ranger. Some archetypes are very specific and Yora wasn't asking about urban or seafaring Rangers.
But tracking is only a dice role without any real opportunity for the player to make descisions or consider his options, and favored enemy is a flat nummerical bonus that does not give the player any chance do anything special. If anything, in a mixed group of enemies, the ranger is going to focus entirely on those which he has as favored enemies, but effectively that gives the player even less options. Instead of "which one do I attack so it benefits our teamwork best?", the player is faced with "which one do I attack so it benefits our teamwork best, but it has to be either the worg or the owlbear?". If you have favored enemy giants, and there is one giant in the group, of course you would drop everything and try to full attack that giant as much as possible so it doesn't get killed by someone else in the group. Because you have one really good ability that may not come up that often, so damn it if you don't use any opportunity you can get. That's not fun.
I think part of the problem here is you're saying you want to give the ranger interesting things to do, but you're just focusing on the mechanics as if that's all the character brings to the table and trying to meet what the ranger does as if it's some kind of checklist of tokens to include. Why not let the player guide you into what he feels he wants to do as a ranger?
And that jealous focus on favored enemies rather than what works for the situation? Why would you assume that? The ranger may be efficient at killing the giant, but if there's a dire bear in the way, why would you expect the ranger to drop everything and go for the giant? The point is, the giant is getting killed and if the ranger and fighter can't switch targets without risking everybody else, does it matter who kills it? Besides, where there's one giant, there are usually more.
As far as tracking, sure, tracking could just be a die roll, but so can any and all interpersonal interactions. They can all be reduced to diplomacy, bluff, intimidate, and be just as boring without real opportunity for the player to make decisions. The task for you is to make things that could just be reduced to a die roll come alive with descriptions, complications, and other elements to make them interesting and engaging to the players.
I must say, I've never experienced rangers being "weaker fighters".
I'd say the opposite, I think Rangers are stronger fighter. Taking Favored enemy along with the spell Instant enemy then the ranger has a better to hit bonus and pretty close to equal damage bonus as fighter. The fighter may get tons of bonus feats but so does the ranger through combat style. Sure less feats but not having to meet the prerequisites makes up that.
The only edge a fighter has over a ranger is in tanking.
Aside from the Paladin, none of the other classes have a large part of their bonuses completely negated when the mix of monsters gets a bit more varied. And I think "evil alignment" is a bit more common than even "undead" or "Humanoid (human)".
Any melee based character will have most of their bonuses negated when they come across a flying enemy or swarms. Or flying swarms.
IMHO problem is in assuming that every class should have a spotlight. I say even more-spotlight predetermined by GM. Give players a only target to achieve, don't build a road with obvious signs " hey mr ranger/barbarian/fighter/sorcerer, it's your turn. They have usually more fun with encounters determined by their actions, not GM fiat/railroad.
Coming at this from the combat side of things ( because I think Rangers got the "nature guy" side well covered ), I think that the very exclusive nature of the Favored Enemy class feature is the problem.
While I think that the Guide archetype offers a decent alternative, its limitation to a few opponents per day ( and inability to benefit from the Instant Enemy spell later on ) presents its own set of problems.
A solution could be to broaden the "Ranger's Focus" ability of the Guide to an entire sub-set of enemies ( i.e. Giants, Humanoid (Goblinoids), etc. ), instead of just one single enemy and keep it active until the Ranger changes it again? Well, that's just off the top of my head, so maybe it could be a bit too good.
The guide is great with the Horizon Walker Prestige Class. The Guide doesn't have favored enemey so it stacks with the Horizon walker's Terrian Dominance which treats creature native to that terrian as you favored enemy using you favored terrain bonus.
In theory a 10/10 Ranger Guide/Horizon Walker could have +26 to hit and damage against 1 target if the target is native to terrian and focus of the Ranger. The Ranger get 2 favored terrians and the horizon walker gets 7 for 9 in favored terrian plus Master of All Lands give you another +2 on all favored terrians. So 9 favored terrrians at +2 per terrian and add another +2 for +20. Then add the ranger focus of +6. It's crazy really and any GM would probably just make sure you rarely get to use it. You'd be better off spread in around so the bonus isn't that crazy but still great and usable almost anywhere with 9 terrains.
Think about what the specific character wants to do instead of just the class. Obviously if he's a ranger he wants to track enemies in the wilderness and that stuff, but about the backstory ? What does this player in particular like to do in games?
I have one friend that is in almost every one of my gaming groups, and no matter what class she plays (oracle, sorcerer, rogue to name a few) she's always after learning as much as she can about NPCs and learning about the world she's in, so I always make sure I throw in monsters or villains with interesting pasts or goals. One of the best moments we had was this raging forlarren that was captured alive but was trying to instigate the party into killing her because forlarrens (building on the descriptions in the bestiary) hate themselves as much as they hate everything else and switch between bone-shaking rage and overwhelming remorse at the drop of a hat. My friend loved the interaction she got out of it as she tried to find out why this creature was so angry and how she could remove the threat it posed to the villagers without killing it.
tl;dr, the best advice I can give is to know how to cater to your players, not to their classes.
As others have said Rangers are a full BAB class with good number of reflex/fort saves. They have a good number of skills per level and class skills. They also have an animal companion and a dash of spellcasting.
Even ignoring favored enemies and favored terrains that is a fairly solid package. The question is why play a fighter :)
Aside from the Paladin, none of the other classes have a large part of their bonuses completely negated when the mix of monsters gets a bit more varied. And I think "evil alignment" is a bit more common than even "undead" or "Humanoid (human)".Any melee based character will have most of their bonuses negated when they come across a flying enemy or swarms. Or flying swarms.
Melee characters vs. casters/archers is not about "certain classes", but rather combat styles.
Melee characters vs. casters/archers is not about "certain classes", but rather combat styles.Aside from the Paladin, none of the other classes have a large part of their bonuses completely negated when the mix of monsters gets a bit more varied. And I think "evil alignment" is a bit more common than even "undead" or "Humanoid (human)".Any melee based character will have most of their bonuses negated when they come across a flying enemy or swarms. Or flying swarms.
Any melee character that doesn't keep a ranged weapon (or a reliable way of gaining the ability to fly) on hand deserves to be punished for being unprepared for common threats.
I am the GM and I am very much inclined to provide any ranger in the party plenty of opportunities to shine at ranging.
And that really is the main issue here. Apart from using a lot of creatures of the favored enemy type and planting lots of tracks, I really don't have much ideas.But tracking is only a dice role without any real opportunity for the player to make descisions or consider his options, and favored enemy is a flat nummerical bonus that does not give the player any chance do anything special. If anything, in a mixed group of enemies, the ranger is going to focus entirely on those which he has as favored enemies, but effectively that gives the player even less options. Instead of "which one do I attack so it benefits our teamwork best?", the player is faced with "which one do I attack so it benefits our teamwork best, but it has to be either the worg or the owlbear?". If you have favored enemy giants, and there is one giant in the group, of course you would drop everything and try to full attack that giant as much as possible so it doesn't get killed by someone else in the group. Because you have one really good ability that may not come up that often, so damn it if you don't use any opportunity you can get. That's not fun.
So it's not that you don't like rangers or think they are useless, it's that you don't really understand the class very well. You seem to think of them as someone who tracks, fights, has a little bit of stealth, and gets favored enemy.
There have been a lot of great ideas and comments thrown around in this thread and a lot of them deal with the ranger's ability in combat, which he is no slouch in. Some deal with his ability to track, others with his spell casting abilities.
When it comes down to it all, everything is a dice roll unless you as the GM seek out and allow for the role-playing in the group. Rangers are really good at a lot of stuff as discussed, but it seems you get stuck only on a couple aspects of the class and are unable to think outside of that small box you put yourself into.
More ideas for rangers and what they can do outside of combat have also been discussed, things like tracking, infiltration, talking with animals (to a lesser extent than druids), lending support via spells, stealth missions, their supreme hunting abilities (everyone needs food), their choice in animal companion, and their overall connection to nature and wanting to protect it from being defiled.
So think outside the box, there was a reason why back when the ranger class was created (in ye olden days) that it took specific stats to even become a ranger, they were a special forces type of character and still can be. Don't limit your own thinking on them.