Goblin Squad Member
|
The argument goes something like this: Fear is a significant element of assassination that would otherwise not be present under models of lesser severity. Bounty should be feared similarly, except lesser because it is consciously avoidable (by self-moderation).
Fear of Assassination should promote the profession of the bodyguard.
So there should be bodyguard contracts along with bounty contracts, and assassination should be greater than bounty hunting. Assassination is bounty hunting taken to an Art form.
TBH, I think the threat of PvP occurring at any time is threat enough to encourage the behavior you describe, without adding another mechanic for it. In general, PvP will instill general terror. I think the focus of the Assassination Contract should be on how well it fulfills a specific aim of the issuer, rather than it's general effect. Of course, the general effect is important, but we should avoid designing a mechanic around a general effect that other systems can accomplish.
EDIT: Added quote since my post went to the next page.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Question: Should it be possible to Assassinate a player who has sterling Reputation and has never stepped out of line in such a way as to make himself eligible for a Bounty? And should it be possible for that Assassination to sever a thread that's keeping his awesome sword from being looted?
With respect to Reward and Rebuke, where I can spend some of my own Reputation to raise or lower yours, I expect the vast majority of uses to fall into these cases: 1) Rebuke someone who just did something to irritate you, like killing you; or 2) Reward someone in your Settlement who's starting to have a negative impact on your Settlement because of their low Reputation.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Question: Should it be possible to Assassinate a player who has sterling Reputation and has never stepped out of line in such a way as to make himself eligible for a Bounty? And should it be possible for that Assassination to sever a thread that's keeping his awesome sword from being looted?
1: Yes. Anyone who logs into the game should be eligible to have an assassination contract put on them, with the possible exception of valid targets must have X exp points in order to protect new players until they are able to defend themselves. Of course, if someone stays in an area where PVP has been disabled then they can wait out the assassination contract.
2: No, absolutely not. Severing gear threading should be limited to Death Curses. It should be rare, and it should be limited to a target that has killed you and you still pay a reputation cost. Besides, if Mr goody with the Awesome Sword has it threaded, chances are he doesn't have other things threaded as well, so he will still loose a large amount of his other stuff. He made that choice when he threaded an awesome sword in the first place.
@Keovar
but BW wants to cut item threads because he always wants to push things to get him as close to griefing as possible. If he gets to cut a few item threads, he'll want full looting. If he gets full looting, he'll want to inflict XP loss. If he got that, he'd probably want to inflict permadeath. In the end, it comes down to schadenfreude.What I will always push for is a profession (class) being able to do what it is supposed to. I will push for specialized classes requiring specialized and difficult skills to achieve. I will push for a characters death to be extraordinary and meaningful.
What I'm asking for here is what is already in the game under the title of Death Curse. It is limited in frequency, which I also suggested for assassination. I further suggest limiting it to highly skilled characters which would further limit it.
Like Milo mentioned above, I think of Assassins more as political predators, and not snipers on the battlefield. A sniper on the battlefield would be more concerned with the severing of the respawn thread of their priority target. A political assassin is more concerned with the quick kill and get out.
As I stated earlier, nothing more than what Death Curse provides. So if I am looking to escalate towards griefing, so are the Devs. As I also stayed, if I were an Assassin, I would request or even demand as part of my contract the transfer of a Death Curse.
Finally, what I hope for and envision is when you are hiring an Assassin, that you a few things in the back of your mind: This person in front of me is a professional, highly skilled and capable, dangerous and expensive.
Weirdly enough, I actually agree with Bluddwolf here. Assassins, like bounties, need to be quite effective to justify the expenses (and the trouble the assassin goes to).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Question: Should it be possible to Assassinate a player who has sterling Reputation and has never stepped out of line in such a way as to make himself eligible for a Bounty? And should it be possible for that Assassination to sever a thread that's keeping his awesome sword from being looted?
1: Yes. Anyone who logs into the game should be eligible to have an assassination contract put on them, with the possible exception of valid targets must have X exp points in order to protect new players until they are able to defend themselves. Of course, if someone stays in an area where PVP has been disabled then they can wait out the assassination contract.
2: No, absolutely not. Severing gear threading should be limited to Death Curses. It should be rare, and it should be limited to a target that has killed you and you still pay a reputation cost. Besides, if Mr goody with the Awesome Sword has it threaded, chances are he doesn't have other things threaded as well, so he will still loose a large amount of his other stuff. He made that choice when he threaded an awesome sword in the first place.
I think that #2 would be fine as long as there are conditions that need to be meet. For example assassin flag needs to be at max stacks, the thread that would break is randomly chosen, maybe you have to kill them without taking any damage. I feel like this would let people have higher rewards for performing at a higher standard of game play.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Question: Should it be possible to Assassinate a player who has sterling Reputation and has never stepped out of line in such a way as to make himself eligible for a Bounty? And should it be possible for that Assassination to sever a thread that's keeping his awesome sword from being looted?
1: Yes. Anyone who logs into the game should be eligible to have an assassination contract put on them, with the possible exception of valid targets must have X exp points in order to protect new players until they are able to defend themselves. Of course, if someone stays in an area where PVP has been disabled then they can wait out the assassination contract.
2: No, absolutely not. Severing gear threading should be limited to Death Curses. It should be rare, and it should be limited to a target that has killed you and you still pay a reputation cost. Besides, if Mr goody with the Awesome Sword has it threaded, chances are he doesn't have other things threaded as well, so he will still loose a large amount of his other stuff. He made that choice when he threaded an awesome sword in the first place.
An Assassin should be able to get to his / her target anywhere. This might be a reasonable advantage and at the same time, create that fear associated with Assassins. "There is no where you can run, no where you can hide" from the relentless assassin seeking to get his mark.
@Kobold
I agree that assassinations should be uncommon or even rare. What we do not know at this time is, what are the requirements to use the various flags?
Can anyone enable an Assassinn Flag? I certainly hope not. I hope that there are prerequisite skills before you can claim to be an Assassin.
It pains me to say this, but it is not the same for the outlaw flag. However, it should require various skills in order to build and maintain an effective hideout, and so Bandits might be slightly higher up on the outlaw food chain.
The same goes for Bounty Hunters of Enforcers, etc. all if these should have a few requisite skills, so that a noob toon that is 4 seconds old cabt just throw up an Assassin Flag.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
As it stands currently, anyone evil can activate the Assassin flag. Assassin is not a role like rogue, or paladin, or wizard. There has been nothing to suggest it will have its own skill trees. It is an occupation you can use your independantly developed skills to perform, like guard, or scout, or moneychanger.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As I stated earlier, nothing more than what Death Curse provides. So if I am looking to escalate towards griefing, so are the Devs.
Is that just intentional misunderstanding, or what?
Death Curses only come into play when the target acted 'naughty'.If you never act 'naughty', then you aren't subject to them.
They only exist for 'vengeance' AGAINST griefers.
This is the exact opposite of the devs escalating towards griefing, they are putting into place measures which uniquely disincentivize griefing, or naughty behavior. They don't see the need for it to go away, they have just put into place disincentives and ways for victims to get revenge.
If Assassinations can remove a player from the game for a period of time, that in itself can be of value.
Some targets may qualify for combo Death Curse + Assassinations, some may only qualify for Assassinations (if they didn't do anything 'naughty' to qualify).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I know Im being...... difficult. But who determines if someone has or hasnt been naughty? I mean for instance my truth might not be yours. If each of us worships different one true gods of light, then "obviously" my god is the correct one and you are a pagan, heretic, blasphemer that deserves to burn in hell no? So I hire an assassin to send you there, and from my point of view it was justice. So a death curse is par for the course......
BLASPHEMER!!! :b
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I know Im being...... difficult. But who determines if someone has or hasnt been naughty? I mean for instance my truth might not be yours. If each of us worships different one true gods of light, then "obviously" my god is the correct one and you are a pagan, heretic, blasphemer that deserves to burn in hell no? So I hire an assassin to send you there, and from my point of view it was justice. So a death curse is par for the course......
BLASPHEMER!!! :b
In the world of pathfinder every action is tied to an alignment, there is no point of view, or difference of opinion. Right and wrong are divinely written, and there is no way to subvert them. There is no 'one true god' the world of pathfinder is polytheistic, and the gods interact with the inhabitants of the universe.
This makes it so GW can code every action in the game to a certain alignment shift. If you kill for no reason, you are evil, if you act against a law you are chaotic. Just because you don't agree with the 2000 coin tax doesn't mean you won't shift chaotic if you don't pay it.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The whole religion angle was just a for instance, but if nothing else it points out the flaws of an alignment system. It could just be that my chars version of reality dictates that evil is good and good is evil (and woe to them according to the Bible ^.~). Or hell it could just be that we are 2 LG settlements and we have a resource ownership dispute, each claiming to be the rightful owner. Or what about fuedal Japan, where might made right and losers of a battle were proclaimed the side that was "evil" because they lost and only heaven sides with winners riiiiiigght.
P.S. If I want to roleplay as a Buddhist or make up the religion of Greedalox, then having alignments give me limited access to how I would roleplay. Maybe I worship a mad god that is 1 part LG and 2 parts CE.
Back on topic, one persons truth is not anothers, so as long as their is a RP purpose and it isnt random griefing, who are you to tell me Im naughty. I happen to think Im the saint of all thieves, and my robbing you is a blessing! XD
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
alignment is a construct of pathfinder/D&D world.
it doesn't exist outside of that.
speaking of good and evil outside of the pathfinder context is not speaking about pathfinder alignment.
pathfinder alignment is a measurement of objective cosmic reality, like mass is a measurement of weight (more or less).
it doesn't matter what you think of your own weight, comparatively or whatever, mass is a cosmic reality.
unless you are worried about your clerical ties to a specific deity, most characters have no in-character reason to worry about their alignment, cosmic measurements of alignment (good/evil/law/chaos) really are not connected to personal or social judgements of 'betterness', although for example lawful good characters are likely to equate them (at least on the good end, a certain lawful point of view wouldn't necessarily equate chaos as undesired, they themselves just happen to be lawful anyway).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
As I stated earlier, nothing more than what Death Curse provides. So if I am looking to escalate towards griefing, so are the Devs.Is that just intentional misunderstanding, or what?
Death Curses only come into play when the target acted 'naughty'.
If you never act 'naughty', then you aren't subject to them.
They only exist for 'vengeance' AGAINST griefers.
This is the exact opposite of the devs escalating towards griefing, they are putting into place measures which uniquely disincentivize griefing, or naughty behavior. They don't see the need for it to go away, they have just put into place disincentives and ways for victims to get revenge.If Assassinations can remove a player from the game for a period of time, that in itself can be of value.
Some targets may qualify for combo Death Curse + Assassinations, some may only qualify for Assassinations (if they didn't do anything 'naughty' to qualify).
Two things about death curses:
1. You can place a death curse on anyone that is on your enemy list. They did not have to "grief" you per se, they just had to kill you while you were not flagged.
2. Death Curses can be transferred to another character in order to "collect" on it (ie Bounty Hunters or Assassins).
I have no misunderstanding of how a death curse works, unless it was not clearly stated in the blog and it functions differently than that.
As I have said several times, if I were an Assassin, I would ask for a death curse to be included in the contract, if one is possible.
Imagine the impact an Assassin's reputation would have on the player, who knows that assassin almost always combines an assassination contract with a death curse. It would remind me of that scene from Treaure Island, when that guy gets the black spot handed to him. He died from the fear knowing that he was marked.
Assassins are not meant to make the characters fear them, they are meant to make the player fear them.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Besides, the Death Curse isn't a construct of good and evil. It is a boon granted by Calistria, a Chaotic Neutral goddess of lust and revenge. Using a Death Curse requires that you pray to her upon your death and pay a heavy penalty to your own reputation. The death curse is about revenge upon your killer for killing you. Calistria doesn't care what alignment your are or what alignment your attacker is. She doesn't care about what either of you were fighting about. She just wants your lust for revenge. And if you truly revel in that lust for revenge to the point where it tarnishes your reputation with mortals, she will grant you your revenge.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
it would be interesting if 'you can place a death curse on somebody who killed you when you were not flagged' just applied to specific flags. somebody with heinous/permanent version IS flagged, but that seems the sort of thing that could be excluded from counting here, so mr heinous perhaps COULD qualify to take out death wishes on people who killed him unprovokedly (other than that he is mr heinous). although since mr heinous likely has low rep, that comes into the issue of whether CONSUMES rep (i.e. you need to have it in the first place) or just lowers your rep (you could already have the lowest possible rep, so no effective change, but you can still issue the death curse in this approach).
otherwise, the currently described system 'killed you when you were not flagged PERIOD' does bring alignment connotations with it (as well as rep), since killing somebody who is not flagged has alignment connotations (albeit the characters' overall alignment may be anything, the act itself is aligned) as well as reputational ones. (in most situations, it's been stated that some zones will have no alignment/rep consequences for actions, which means they work like open war without anybody being FLAGGED for open war... although the implementation could just be giving everybody who enters the WAR flag, which would exclude death curses)
but overall, the PVP flags announced all seem so great that they seem like they will be used by many many players, certainly the higher powered players most involved in PVP conflict. certainly the PVP flags seem like a candidate to be 'ignored' when determining whether a death curse is allowed or not.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
As I also stayed, if I were an Assassin, I would request or even demand as part of my contract the transfer of a Death Curse.
There's a conflict of interests there, and by engaging in it, you show that you're not professional about your contracts. If maximizing personal profit is your motivation, then your target could buy you off and send you back at the one who hired you.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
P.S. If I want to roleplay as a Buddhist or make up the religion of Greedalox, then having alignments give me limited access to how I would roleplay. Maybe I worship a mad god that is 1 part LG and 2 parts CE
When you roleplay you are constrained by your toolset, in this case you have the official pathfinder toolset. RPing a buddhist, or any fictional construct outside of core pathfinder lore isn't possible within the constraints of PFO, and there should not be any effort by GW to make things like that possible.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
As I also said, if I were an Assassin, I would request or even demand as part of my contract the transfer of a Death Curse.There's a conflict of interests there, and by engaging in it, you show that you're not professional about your contracts. If maximizing personal profit is your motivation, then your target could buy you off and send you back at the one who hired you.
Huh?
Maximizing personal profit comes in the intiital negotiation, and from establishing a reputation that once a contract has been negotiated, it will be followed through.
Double crossing never leads to higher profits. That is simply bad business sense and short sighted. I suffer neither of those attributes.
Besides I am not asking for a Death Curse to be transfered for the sake of getting more loot off of the victim. I would ask for it to increase the fear factor of being hunted down by a professional assassin.
Perhaps our vision of what an assassin is, is just different?
I look at an assassin as someone that is at the pinnacle of being a killer. His professionalism, skill, and ability to instill fear in his prey is nearly unsurpassed amoung the melee classes.
I want truly masterful Assassin to be few. I wnat their skills to be difficult to obtain. I want their persuit to make their prey shake in terror. I want their killing to be swift, and punishing.
When someone tells you that a warrior is hunting you down, you double your guards at the gate. When someone tells you that an assassin is hunting you down. You look at every shadow as if it is your death about to happen.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
P.S. If I want to roleplay as a Buddhist or make up the religion of Greedalox, then having alignments give me limited access to how I would roleplay. Maybe I worship a mad god that is 1 part LG and 2 parts CEWhen you roleplay you are constrained by your toolset, in this case you have the official pathfinder toolset. RPing a buddhist, or any fictional construct outside of core pathfinder lore isn't possible within the constraints of PFO, and there should not be any effort by GW to make things like that possible.
Listen man I was simply trying to make a point. So Im just gonna agree to disagree. Maybe you are limited by a toolset, but Ill see you in PFO. Ill be the one RPing as John Conner on a quest to save the River Kingdoms from judgement day, as I worship a satelite named Zebra, and do Banditry on the side to fund my charity to Feed the Children.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
As I also said, if I were an Assassin, I would request or even demand as part of my contract the transfer of a Death Curse.There's a conflict of interests there, and by engaging in it, you show that you're not professional about your contracts. If maximizing personal profit is your motivation, then your target could buy you off and send you back at the one who hired you.Huh?
Maximizing personal profit comes in the intiital negotiation, and from establishing a reputation that once a contract has been negotiated, it will be followed through.
Double crossing never leads to higher profits. That is simply bad business sense and short sighted. I suffer neither of those attributes.
Besides I am not asking for a Death Curse to be transfered for the sake of getting more loot off of the victim. I would ask for it to increase the fear factor of being hunted down by a professional assassin.
Perhaps our vision of what an assassin is, is just different?
I look at an assassin as someone that is at the pinnacle of being a killer. His professionalism, skill, and ability to instill fear in his prey is nearly unsurpassed amoung the melee classes.
I want truly masterful Assassin to be few. I wnat their skills to be difficult to obtain. I want their persuit to make their prey shake in terror. I want their killing to be swift, and punishing.
When someone tells you that a warrior is hunting you down, you double your guards at the gate. When someone tells you that an assassin is hunting you down. You look at every shadow as if it is your death about to happen.
If you expect the assassin "class" to be all that, then expect to have an entire herd of people flocking to it.
We shall call the game Assassins Online.
Seriously, if you want something that can be an absolute terror then the majority of people will have one as an alt.
If you can do it, so can everyone else. Masterful Assassins will be many if they have that kind of power.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Xeen
In Eve online, everyone can eventually become a Titan pilot, but even after 10 years, I'd say not many are.
I would also imagine that when anyone gets close to or achieves mastery of a certain profession, they will be pretty darn powerful. Yes, I know Ryan Dancey has said there is a pretty flat curve, and little difference between a newer character and one that is much older. I don't see how that will actually be the case.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
That wont be the case.
I dont know if your still in eve or not, but last time I saw the thread almost 2 years ago... there was a count of over 200 titans in game. I would guess that has doubled by now (or more.)
As for titan pilots, you can triple or quadruple that. There are guys that have bought and trained every titan skill just to say they have it.
The titan ship and the skills to fly it were initially intended to be very rare. Granted by the numbers of players total, they still are... But I think they only intended it to be 1 per alliance at best. Alliances like Pandemic Legion have 10.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Xeen,
Even if we accept you double or triple, that is about 1% of the total population. Even if we say it is 10 times that amount, still only about 6000 Titan pilots, and there is no way it is even close to that.
I read one account that the minimum skill points needed is about 45 - 50 million. That amounts to approximately 4 years of focused training.
So back to the issue of what a highly trained Assassin might be. Perhaps have the death curse like ability or an ability to attack their contracted prey anywhere, would be advanced skills. These could and should take months or perhaps even years to acquire.
But for at least a while, I'm done with this issue. I have crowd forged my ideas about assassins, and I'll now wait to read a Dev response or Blog on the issues raised here.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Xeen,
Even if we accept you double or triple, that is about 1% of the total population. Even if we say it is 10 times that amount, still only about 6000 Titan pilots, and there is no way it is even close to that.
I read one account that the minimum skill points needed is about 45 - 50 million. That amounts to approximately 4 years of focused training.
So back to the issue of what a highly trained Assassin might be. Perhaps have the death curse like ability or an ability to attack their contracted prey anywhere, would be advanced skills. These could and should take months or perhaps even years to acquire.
But for at least a while, I'm done with this issue. I have crowd forged my ideas about assassins, and I'll now wait to read a Dev response or Blog on the issues raised here.
Would be worth pointing out that the very mechanics behind titan pilots in eve, if my limited understanding of the game is correct. If I recall it takes 1 corp working together for months on end to produce 1 titan. If everyone in eve's goal were to become a titan pilot, focusing on nothing else but harvesting the resources etc... to make titans, all worked together flawlessly, no wars or conflicts at all to diminish or distract people from the goals of making titans etc... it would still take years to get the titan population up to say even 5%. If we are refering to putting becoming an assassin on the same category as flying a titan in eve, then we aren't talking a class that one person can train etc... we are talking hundreds of people working together for months to create a single use item that allows someone who has trained to be an assassin to be an assassin, an item which has to be recreated on death.
Now of course this isn't what anyone has in mind for an assassin in PFO, but if you are talking about making a desirable, fun and notably highly powerful role in PFO, extremely scarce, the one person dedicating 4 years is not why titans are uncommon. The hard limiter of requiring so many other pilots to make the titan is the real limiting factor.
As I've said on many many topics, a 1 time over the top effort cost to become super powerful permanantly, is a bad idea. It puts the 4+ year vets in a completely different playing field than those who have been playing for a year, creates an extreme hopeless feeling for beginners etc... The one thing noted of titan pilots in eve... they aren't flying around in titans 99% of the time. There are few situations that the reward ratio or failure cost is high enough, that putting something that expensive at risk, is a good idea.
Personally when it comes to balancing I am more in favor of lower cost investments, that have to be re-invested regularly. It keeps the vets having to work hard to stay on top, and gives newer characters the chance to bump ahead.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Onishi
I agree that the Devs have said their desire is to have a fairly flat skill curve. If I remember correctly it was said that the difference between a veteran several years old and a player a few months old would be that the veteran could do a wider variety of things, but not necessarily better, or just marginally better.
The difficulty in this is balance, as you probably know. The big advantage that a veteran will have over a newer character is not in the action based skills, but in the passives. I'll use EvE as an example, since many might be familiar with it.
"The is no substitute for being Cap stable". I would add to that, "A close second is to have Core Competency Elite certificate".
I could be in a frigate and have Frigates 5 and Small Projectile 5 and be up against another pilot with the same ship and projectile skill at 5. But, I have 5 years experience and he only 4 months.
I will have the sever advantage if I also have all of my passive skills at 5 as well. I may have 20 million skill points backing up my ship, and my opponent only 4 million. I will kill him every time. But wait, we have the same ship, same guns and same skill for both of thems.... I'm sure you get the point.
GW should not underestimate the influence have being a jack of all trades, when compared to some one with high skill but limited to just a few things.
I'm also not sure why GW or anyone else for that matter is worried about veteran characters being more powerful. Is that really a surprise? Isn't that the point if the character being the end game. Why would I look to play a game for years, if I'll remain about the same as someone who has played for a few days?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I agree that the Devs have said their desire is to have a fairly flat skill curve. If I remember correctly it was said that the difference between a veteran several years old and a player a few months old would be that the veteran could do a wider variety of things, but not necessarily better, or just marginally better.
...
I'm also not sure why GW or anyone else for that matter is worried about veteran characters being more powerful.
The original principle was (I believe) mostly that Veterans should not deal ridiculously more damage than newer players, and that they shouldn't be effectively unassailable. The classic example of the problem in others games is a level 80 (85? whatever...) in WoW being able to easily defeat hundreds or even thousands of level 20 characters because they would never be able to hit him, and he could easily one-shot them with AoEs.
A well-geared veteran in PFO will still be wary of 3-4 other players even if he knows they're relatively less skilled and only have Tier 2 gear.
From Kickstarter Community Thread: Player vs. Player Conflict:
I've always thought that the way the power curve will likely work is this:
Newbies
When you are a "new" character, you'll be fragile and weak. That does two things:
1: It encourages you to stay in reasonably safe areas and focus on learning how the game works, rather than trying to be Conan on day one.
2: It makes "disposable alts" a less viable option. Making a new character is not an "I win" button for PvP if you do it with a herd of your friends.
Average
At some point, you move into the "normal" power curve of the game; what we've talked about being equivalent to the kind of power you typically see from about 6th level to about 10th level (what I call the "heroic adventuring" part of a Pathfinder tabletop RPG character's career).
This is where you find that the development of your character becomes a process of being very good at a wide range of activities. You'll be able to "catch up" to a character that's older than you in a given activity given a few months of dedicated play and training, but that older character will have the advantage of being very good at a variety of things, not just one thing.
This is essentially what happens in EVE Online.
A small group of reasonably experienced "heroic adventurers" should be able to fight off a horde of new characters, A heroic adventurer should be able to beat a small number of new characters fairly easily.
Balance comes when you have conflict between groups of heroic adventurers. In such encounters, the absolute age of the characters should be less important than their tactics, gear, coordination, and player skill.
Old Vets
There will likely be a small number of old, experienced, wealthy, well equipped PCs who will be really dangerous. You won't want to cross them.
If they show up in a fight, they can tip the balance quickly. If they act in concert as a group, it will take a lot of Heroic Adventurers to keep them in check.
Moderating the power of these Old Vets is an obvious long-term challenge for the game designers and I'm sure we'll have lots of ideas on how to keep them from getting out of hand. But I'm also sure that it will be pretty fun to play one too. :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think the Dev's have only touched the surface of what "Assasination" is all about. I expect we'll get a full blog about it at some point.
Having prefaced with that. My own thoughts:
- Assassination is NOT simple killing. The Dev's alluded to the concept that it involved some sort of "supernatural act" of some sort...hence the justification for the "Evil" shift. Cleary if there is going to be a negative alignment shift for the character performing it, that does justify some stronger then usual death penalty for the victem suffering it. My gut tells me that a simple bind-point sever probably doesn't cut it, I'm not sure what would be a reasonable and well balanced penalty.
- I expect that an "Assassination Attempt" is something that occurs outside the scope of regular combat mechanics. There clearly does NEED to be the capacity for the Assassin to make a one shot kill on the attempt. However, in order to keep this mechanism balanced with the rest of the game we need to impose not only some specialized training that the Assassin must have to undertake to perform such action....but we also need to make sure certain conditions exist in order to make an attempt that has some resonable chance of success. Furthermore we need to provide the victem with some opportunity (possibly training based) to defend against such an attack. Thus it becomes a game of the Assassins skill vs the Victems skill (or possibly bodyguards skill), heavly modified by the conditions at the time of attempt. This is what turns it into a form of game-play rather then a simple "I hurt you" button. Finally in order to balance this as a risk vs reward factor...since we are giving the Assassin a powerfull ability, we need to impose upon them sort of vulnerability if they botch/bungle the attempt. I'd suggest something on the order of a strong but brief debuff to regular combat abilities upon a botched attempt. As I expect one of the things that would likely happen upon a botched attempt is that regular combat with the victem or the victems bodyguards might ensue.
- Given the above. It would be my feeling that there WOULD be at least one specialized skill trees (e.g. Assassination) that an Assassin would need to learn in order to do assassinations. I'd also expect that there might be several other ancillary skill trees (e.g. Disguise, Stealth, etc.) which are not part of that skill tree, but would clearly be important for the character to learn in order to better setup the conditions for an attempt and assist in making a get-away. Note, those skill trees also would have other uses outside of Assassinations.
- I wouldn't neccesarly tie the ability to accept an assassination contract to any special ability or training but the ability to carry one out successfully clearly is. Just like any other business contract, there is a certain amount of onus upon the customer in making sure they are dealing with a qualified "vendor" ....and of course significant damage to the "vendor" or thier handler(s) reputation for not being able to successfully perform the work they have contracted for.
YMMV.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For everyone saying assassins need the ability to one-shot people, I ask this: How would you feel about a bodyguard with the ability to become completely immune to damage and debuffs from a character for 5-10 minutes?
Now realize that one-shotting is actually *more* powerful than this. In the case of the bodyguard power, anyone rendered unable to hurt them could still apply buffs to their allies, or fight against someone other than the bodyguard, if any are present. Someone who has been one-shotted can do nothing to contribute to the fight. They aren't there anymore.
The best way I can see the one-shot kill working is if it works like the actual assassination power in Pathfinder: You have to spend a fair bit of time nearby, without the target knowing what you're planning. Then, you can deliver a strike with some chance of insta-slaying him.
Even then, though, I really don't think one-shots are a good idea. You're basically asking Goblinworks to make an exception in its rules just for a specific character type.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'm very torn about this whole thing.
I'm generally open to the idea that nothing is ever 100% safe, even threaded gear, as long as the cost to take it from me is significantly higher than the cost for me to replace it - after all, you're getting the benefit of me not having access to it when it might count.
I'm also generally open to the possibility of one-shot kills via Assassination, but it should be extremely costly, and should require a series of successful skill checks that can be opposed by other characters or Settlement features leading up to it.
I will not be disappointed if Goblinworks decides that your threaded gear is 100% safe as long as you don't open yourself up to a Death Curse. Nor will I be disappointed if a successful Assassination attempt simply puts a powerful and very difficult to remove Bleed/Poison effect in place that makes it very difficult to survive for very long.
[Edit] (Note to self: this post needs more "very"s)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'm also not sure why GW or anyone else for that matter is worried about veteran characters being more powerful. Is that really a surprise? Isn't that the point if the character being the end game. Why would I look to play a game for years, if I'll remain about the same as someone who has played for a few days?
As far as I know, no one is worried about them being more powerful, rather the extent of how much more powerful.
There is a pretty big difference between
1 month vet vs 3 year vet, 3 year vet wins 99.99999999% of the time in a 1v1 fight.
and
100 6 month old characters, 2 5 year vets, and the 2 5 year vets being able to slaughter the entire army of 100 while barely dropping below 99% HP.
The first case, I have no fear of at all, sounds perfectly reasonable. The second case on the other hand, essentially is telling new players "OK when you start out, in about 3 years you can actually participate in the game, but feel free to grind and do other meaningless activities while you wait".
Now there can be minor exceptions to that, namely if said conditions that allow a handful of vets to steamroll over an army of low/mid characters, are not guaranteed permanent conditions. Going back to the titan example in eve, if something blows up that titan... the pilot operating it no longer has a titan, and yes he is drastically better than any of the other newbie pilots 1v1, but he no longer is capable of destroying 20+ at a time.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think there should be a one-shot kill possibility, but it should require significant investment in both skills and time to accomplish. In MWO a Long Range Missile requires a target lock to be attained. An assassin should require something similar, they need to observe their target without being observed themselves for an extended amount of time. Once they are 'locked on', they have a single chance to make a high damage attack. Bodyguards (anyone really, but bodyguards could have a bonus to this) could have a similar ability to observe people around them. If a bodyguard 'observes' an assassin 'observing' someone, the assassins observation is disrupted and he will need to try again later (and hopefully this time the bodyguard won't notice him).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Sintaqx, your "observation vs. bodyguard" is the kind of thing I had in mind when suggesting "a series of successful skill checks". I would like to see that include some reasonably developed systems for Infiltration, Reconnaissance, Preparation, Execution, and Escape. Most are probably self-explanatory, but Preparation would be "preparing the battle space" by placing traps and other tools in the location where the actual Assassination will take place. I would like the Assassin to be challenged to get through each of those stages first, and then challenged to cleanly escape afterwards.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think there should be a one-shot kill possibility, but it should require significant investment in both skills and time to accomplish. In MWO a Long Range Missile requires a target lock to be attained. An assassin should require something similar, they need to observe their target without being observed themselves for an extended amount of time. Once they are 'locked on', they have a single chance to make a high damage attack. Bodyguards (anyone really, but bodyguards could have a bonus to this) could have a similar ability to observe people around them. If a bodyguard 'observes' an assassin 'observing' someone, the assassins observation is disrupted and he will need to try again later (and hopefully this time the bodyguard won't notice him).
Lets not forget the source material, the Assassin in PF:RPG requires pretty much what is stated above, rounds spent studying the intended target, and then for the attacker to be unseen when he lands the attack.
So for the 'death attack' to be successful, he needs to pass a stealth check, beat the AC, and have the target not pass a fortitude save, and he has to sit around within the area watching the target beforehand. Those are some pretty tough criteria, and when GMing a party with an Assassin, he only managed to pull it off once every few sessions.
I was thinking that whilst one-shotting can be pretty nasty, why not give Assassins nastier 'crits'. Maybe their crits can apply 2 seperate critical effects onto the target, or maybe the attack out of stealth can completely ignore physical resistance, as well as having a crit effect.
This would mean that a character is less likely to be 'one-shot' but is going to be severely hampered in their ability to recover from the attack quickly.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
For everyone saying assassins need the ability to one-shot people, I ask this: How would you feel about a bodyguard with the ability to become completely immune to damage and debuffs from a character for 5-10 minutes?
Now realize that one-shotting is actually *more* powerful than this. In the case of the bodyguard power, anyone rendered unable to hurt them could still apply buffs to their allies, or fight against someone other than the bodyguard, if any are present. Someone who has been one-shotted can do nothing to contribute to the fight. They aren't there anymore.
The point I was trying to make is that this is NOT part of a fight. This is an activity entirely outside the arena of combat. It probably CAN'T even occur in a combat situation (because the target is prepaired to defend themselves).
(IMO) This is more like someone poisoning your tea while you are at dinner... or sneaking up and slitting your throat while you are sleeping. There is no combat going on. It's only once the assassin bungles the attempt and the victem/bodyguards are aware of him that there is a chance for combat to start.
I definately would NOT support the ability of an assassin to be able to walk upto someone and one-shot them in the middle of a fight.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The one-shot assassination ability would probably need to require the target to be out of combat. You could observe the target during combat (provided you can avoid detection) and pounce afterward, but not during.
This all brings to question 'What about ranged assassins/snipers, or spellcasting assassins?' Arguably the most effective and dangerous assassin would be the one observing from the shadows until they are 'locked on' and then sending a single arrow from their longbow into their target's heart.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
...I was thinking that whilst one-shotting can be pretty nasty, why not give Assassins nastier 'crits'...There are no crits and no misses in the combat system that has been described to us.
Assassination must therefore be outside of combat.
There are absolutely crits.
If the result of the roll plus the attack bonus equaled or exceeded the target's defense, the attack does full damage and has a chance to be a critical hit. This is a separate randomized calculation that compares the attack's crit rating to the target's crit resistance. A critical hit doesn't do more damage, but instead applies an injury that debilitates the target for some time. NPCs (who wouldn't care about long-term drawbacks) immediately expend injuries for additional damage.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The point I was trying to make is that this is NOT part of a fight. This is an activity entirely outside the arena of combat. It probably CAN'T even occur in a combat situation (because the target is prepaired to defend themselves).
(IMO) This is more like someone poisoning your tea while you are at dinner... or sneaking up and slitting your throat while you are sleeping. There is no combat going on. It's only once the assassin bungles the attempt and the victem/bodyguards are aware of him that there is a chance for combat to start.
I definately would NOT support the ability of an assassin to be able to walk upto someone and one-shot them in the middle of a fight.
It is combat. One player is attacking another. If the victim dies, he gets all the penalties he would get from being defeated in combat, plus more for being assassinated. Just because one player does not yet know he's engaged in combat does not mean that combat has not begun.
Just because an attack has an interruptable windup and is impractical to use while being attacked does not mean that it isn't a combat ability. It's still an attack.
I've said it before, and I stand by it. The message that tells you that you're involved in a PVP encounter should not be the same one that tells you that you lost it. That's not Player vs Player, that's Player vs Mechanic that punishes someone nearby.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
...I was thinking that whilst one-shotting can be pretty nasty, why not give Assassins nastier 'crits'...There are no crits and no misses in the combat system that has been described to us.
Assassination must therefore be outside of combat.
There are absolutely crits.
If the result of the roll plus the attack bonus equaled or exceeded the target's defense, the attack does full damage and has a chance to be a critical hit. This is a separate randomized calculation that compares the attack's crit rating to the target's crit resistance. A critical hit doesn't do more damage, but instead applies an injury that debilitates the target for some time. NPCs (who wouldn't care about long-term drawbacks) immediately expend injuries for additional damage.
Aye, though I do believe what being was meaning was, there are no 0 damage or 2x-3x damage hits. IE most games people have come to expect crits to be the "OMG 1 shot"
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Aye, though I do believe what being was meaning was, there are no 0 damage or 2x-3x damage hits. IE most games people have come to expect crits to be the "OMG 1 shot"
Except that the original quote he was replying to was talking about having multiple effects, not more damage, with a crit.
I was thinking that whilst one-shotting can be pretty nasty, why not give Assassins nastier 'crits'. Maybe their crits can apply 2 seperate critical effects onto the target, or maybe the attack out of stealth can completely ignore physical resistance, as well as having a crit effect.
That's like saying "We have no fruit." because the bowl is full of apples instead of oranges.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
|
I'm very torn about this whole thing.
[Edit] (Note to self: this post needs more "very"s)
Very true.
This is an enlightening conversation and I'm finding my viewpoint changing as various points are raised. My immediate reaction is to recoil from 1-shot-kills as a possibility. But. If the requirements are appropriately difficult, both in the long term (skill acquisition) and the short term (target acquisition, attack preparation). If there are ways to harden a target at an organisational (PC bodyguard), settlement (NPC security), and personal (defensive skills) level. If it's a fun style of gameplay that's appropriately balanced against other ways of achieving an outcome (politics, diplomacy, war) ... then call me a Jhereg and let's go.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The point I was trying to make is that this is NOT part of a fight. This is an activity entirely outside the arena of combat. It probably CAN'T even occur in a combat situation (because the target is prepaired to defend themselves).
(IMO) This is more like someone poisoning your tea while you are at dinner... or sneaking up and slitting your throat while you are sleeping. There is no combat going on. It's only once the assassin bungles the attempt and the victem/bodyguards are aware of him that there is a chance for combat to start.
I definately would NOT support the ability of an assassin to be able to walk upto someone and one-shot them in the middle of a fight.
It is combat. One player is attacking another. If the victim dies, he gets all the penalties he would get from being defeated in combat, plus more for being assassinated. Just because one player does not yet know he's engaged in combat does not mean that combat has not begun.
Just because an attack has an interruptable windup and is impractical to use while being attacked does not mean that it isn't a combat ability. It's still an attack.
I've said it before, and I stand by it. The message that tells you that you're involved in a PVP encounter should not be the same one that tells you that you lost it. That's not Player vs Player, that's Player vs Mechanic that punishes someone nearby.
There is still PvP game-play here...WAY before the kill occurs....but it's NOT the game-play described by the combat mechanism.
The PvP game-play here is Assassins inflitration methods vs targets security measures. A potential victem can take game-play measures to ACTIVELY protect themselves in the manner in which they go about thier daily routienes. The Assassin tries to oppose those measures by ACTIVELY breaching that security. The part where the kill takes place is only at the very end of all that game-play...just like the part where the kill in regular combat takes place only at the end of a series of game-play that has reduced the character to near zero hit points.
Anyone that is likely to be worth the expense and risk of an assasination attempt is going to know they are a likely target...even if they don't know they are a target that very second.
Same thing that happens with economics PvP. A highly successfull merchant isn't going to know someone has just undercut thier prices that very minute...but if they are highly successfull they know to expect someone to do that at any given moment.
The key factor is that there is still game-play going on for both sides. It still a contest of play/skills on both sides and there are still consequences for both sides if they loose that contest.
You can't become a King or a powerfull Guild Leader and complain that you had no expectation that you would be a target for someone taking you out.
Joe, the guy who makes pottery for a few coppers, really isn't going to need to worry much about being a target. The expense, training, and setup time to pull of an assassination on him...should be kinda like sending a company of M1-Abrams tanks to go break up a fight between a couple school kids on the playground. Doing it would be a loss in terms of opportunity cost for the assassin or thier employer.
YMMV.
Edit: If there really was such a strong concern about the need for the target to be aware of the possibility of PvP.....you could probably even have the game notify them when a contract was taken out on them. That wouldn't tell them exactly when the hit would occur (given suitably long contract terms), by who, where or who took it out...but it would let them know to expect such PvP gameplay to occur in the near future (e.g. 1-3 days)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Just a brainstorm idea, but what do y'all think of the victim of an Assassination getting a medium term (1 hour?) debuff that causes his attack rolls to use the die from one tier lower, with a similar effect on his defense rolls and his Unit Combat effectiveness?
That's an idea...one of the things I was thinking about was maybe reducing the number of "refreshes" for the individual that day...or a debuff slowing thier "fast travel" movement rate.
Both of those would potentialy (not sure exactly how refreshes really work here) have an effect on non-combat activites. (IMO) Having an assassination effect on things only involved in imminent combat kinda limits it's usage case.
My thinking would be you'd want it to do some things that have a cost in terms of things outside direct combat. That way there is a reason to use it on an economic or political figure. YMMV.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
|
Just a brainstorm idea, but what do y'all think of the victim of an Assassination getting a medium term (1 hour?) debuff that causes his attack rolls to use the die from one tier lower, with a similar effect on his defense rolls and his Unit Combat effectiveness?
It's an interesting idea. I'd want to ensure that it felt truly organic in terms of the in-game world. Not just applying an arbitrary penalty to make assassination worthwhile, but applying something that feels specifically related to sudden death / death magic / having a kife in the back of your skull.