Goblin Squad Member
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I'm operating on the premise that being assassinated is more than just being killed and possibly having to respawn further than you hoped.
Contracting an assassination should be much like the Death Curse. It should cost the employer a high cost in reputation. Instead of the "Sever Respawn Link" or perhaps to also include a "Sever Thread" for one or more items. Basically combining the affects of both assassination and death curse.
Being assassinated should bestow upon the victim, some sort of honor and or benefit. Assassinations are reserved for the powerful, and or the notorious or famous. Any schmoe can get killed, but being assassinated means that someone was truly dedicated to your demise. The employer pays a high financial and reputation price, the victim should gain an equal boost to his or her reputation.
It brings me back to reputation being looked at differently. Evil characters should have certain benefits for low reputation, whereas good aligned characters gain from high reputation. Or the concept of good vs. evil reputation should be removed and instead thought if as simply positive and negative reputation.
An Assassin would gain positive reputation from killing someone while using the assassins flag and fulfilling a contract. While his employer, if good, would receive a negative reputation for hiring the assassin. The victim would also gain a positive reputation for being assassinated, because that is a sign that he or she was important enough to be assassinated.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the idea of assassination contracts being meaningful but Im not sure about how. Playing devil's advocate here:
1. Victim reputation gain/loss shouldnt really be factored in. The victim may have been chosen because he was 'griefing', 'ganking' or making a nuisance of himself. They shouldnt then get rep gain when someone wants revenge. Not to mention it opens possible gaming of the system.
2. While I agree there should be a cost to the employer, it shouldnt be too high/costly else people will just set up their own out-of-game contracts without using the in-game contract system (i believe that you can set the Assassin flag without needing a contract).
3. The employers hit should be to alignment, not reputation. As reputation is 'player honor', theyre actually acting 'honorably' by contracting it out instead of getting twenty buddies to harass the victim.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think it should 'sever thread' as the Death Curse does. That seems like a particularly dire consequence that should be reserved for PvP combat encounters that the game can verify.
From the blog:
Use of a death curse is kind of the nuclear deterrent of Pathfinder Online: It will lower your own reputation to play that dirty, so you're encouraged to save it for someone that's really ruining your fun, unless the target is so disreputable that murders are a habit (in which case the cost to you in terms of a reputation hit will be minimal).
True, it might not be so bad if it also granted the victim reputation, but I kind of like the idea that somebody could protect an item that has sentimental/RP value to them with certainty if they forego some behaviors.
EDIT: Removed more quotes about Death Curses from the blog. You can only level them if you "were attacked and weren't fair game."
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Goblin Squad Member
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Griefing will be handled by moderators, not a factor for in-game mechanics. I find the whole notion that griefing will be a problem to border on hysteria. I see no such evidence in any games I've played, perhaps since AOC's launch, that griefing exists to the levels that it is feared here. Please note, I am not criticizing you for bringing it up, I'm just pointing out that I believe it is a non issue.
Ganking on the other hand, is sound military strategy, and should not be looked down upon or sanctioned against in any way. A leader who plans to have a fair fight is not a good leader.
As for alignment shift, rather than reputation shift, I brought reputation into discussion because the is impacted by death curse, and I see assassination as essentially the same absent the Devine intervention.
As you can probably tell, I have issues with the concepts of in-game mechanics based on alignment and or reputation. More so with alignment, than reputation, but I still believe that player interaction and impressions of one's reputation are more important.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Kakafika,
I always found that "rebuke or salute you killer, at a cost if your own reputation" to be an odd mechanic to wrap my head around.
If I understand it correctly, I get killed by someone and if I salute them for killing me, we both get a positive reputation boost. If I rebuke him, we both get a negative reputation hit.
Victim : "Hey, thanks for killing me."
Attacker: "it was my pleasure, and you fought well."
Victim: "You are a swell guy, I salute you."
Attacker: "Why thank you, now we can both get higher training."
Victim: "Wow, I did not think of that!"
Attacker: "I will add you to my friends list"
Victim: "Great, maybe next time I will kill you"
Attacker: "Outstanding, cya later friend"
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the quote you provided, "rebuke or salute your killer, at the cost of your own reputation," means that if you salute them, you get a negative reputation boost and they get a positive one.
I'm not sure where it was said, but I think one of the devs stated that it is being designed this way in order to avoid two persons 'gaming the system' by continually attacking and saluting each other. So, in your example, the Victim still says 'Hey, thanks for killing me,' but is actually penalized for it. That's ok though. I think it's good that there is a way for people to reward even competitive behaviors that they enjoy; with all the "we need good players to play evil characters" threads, I don't think it's as ridiculous to most people as your example suggests you think it is.
Personally, I'm not sure I will use it much, but if I maintain a high reputation easily by doing the things I enjoy, I can see myself saluting somebody maybe once a month. If somebody kills me and isn't a dbag about it or if they put a lot of work into some interesting/hilarious RP for it. Or perhaps if somebody used some unorthodox tactics to beat me when they were at a disadvantage... I would use it as a 'hey man, nice spar' sort of thing.
I'm pretty sure Salute doesn't penalize your Reputation. There is a mechanic somewhere where you can give somebody Rep at your own expense, but that's different.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm with Nihimon on this one. We don't really know the details on assination yet as the haven't had (that I'm aware) any full coverage devoted to it....I think we've only gotten snippets so far...so kinda hard for me to evaluate it in any informed manner.
RE: Rebuke/Salute - I think they should simply have "Salute" waive any negative alignment/reputation (either or both, victems choice) impacts of the kill. It's definately a valid function and I could see myself using it quite often that way. It's basicaly a way of saying... "That was a valid kill, even if the system wasn't mechanicaly able to recognize it as such"... Essentialy, I'm not interested in imposing any sort of mechanical penalty on someone that kills me, if the kill was done as a legitimate form of play. (Since players can self-select alignment and low rep has only negative mechanical effects....I wouldn't see waiving the impacts have any undesired effect on a player that was playing the game "as intended"). YMMV.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the quote you provided, "rebuke or salute your killer, at the cost of your own reputation," means that if you salute them, you get a negative reputation boost and they get a positive one.
Oh in that case, it is even more ridiculous than I thought.
Vitctim: "hey, thanks for killing me"
Attacker: "Don't mention it, you fought well."
Victim: "Hey, I salute you, so that you can get a reputation bonus"
Attacker: "Won't that hurt you own reputation?"
Victim: "Yeah, but at least the Devs won't think we are gaming the system"
Attacker: "Yeah, they will just know your an idiot."
I think the Devs and some of the forum members here need to worry less about griefing and gaming a system and more about making a system that makes sense.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The marginal advantage to assassinating someone should be proportionate to the marginal cost of assassination over simply killing them.
Forcing them back to a distant respawn costs them an hour or so at most, so the cost should be recoupable in two hours at most. If the target loses threaded items, the attack should consume something hard to acquire.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The marginal advantage to assassinating someone should be proportionate to the marginal cost of assassination over simply killing them.
Forcing them back to a distant respawn costs them an hour or so at most, so the cost should be recoupable in two hours at most. If the target loses threaded items, the attack should consume something hard to acquire.
The problem with the respawn thread, possibly being severed, is that it will only affect someone who has more than one respawn point. At the very least, assassination, under a contract, should be the equivalent to the death curse's severing of a threaded item.
Assassination can be limited in the same way that the death curse is as well. Such as only have one active assassination request issued at a time. Even the Assassin can also be limited to only having one contract at a time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the victim doesn't have a local bind point, he's not interesting enough to assassinate.
Was this meant to be a question or a statement? Either way, I'm not seeing how it is relevant as a point of being "interesting" or not.
The only interests the Assassin should have are, "How much and what are the risks?"
This is not to say the the actual act of the assassination won't be interesting, but the respawn point is likely not anything that the assassin is worried about. How many and where are the respawn points for an individual character are nearly impossible to know. So it does not warrant the energy in thinking about that.
The problem with assassination as it is proposed is that it only increases the chance of doing something that anyone else can do with s bit more luck. Even with that, the result is not very climatic and in no way represents the professionalism or prestige / fear inspiring that an Assassin is known for.
An Assassin has to be and train in an Evil settlement, which is gimped by Dev accounts when compared to other settlements. An Assassin has to be highly trained in stealth, combat arms, disguise, the use of poisons, etc. But, he or she must still kill his prey by dozens of hits ( no back stabbing, critical hits or one shots) and in return he or she will get the chance to send their victim to a spawn point farther away???
Why would an Assassin care about that? He / she was already successful in fulfilling the contract. Even if the victim does come back and kills the Assassin, the Assassin still completed the contract. The location of the respawn means nothing.
If I were to play an Assassin I would require my employer also teanfer to me a Desth Curse on the mark. This would then fly in the face of the argument that Death Curses will be rare, because any Assassin in his right mind would demand it as part of the contract.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The logic here doesn't make any sense. Assassinations should cause the victim even less trauma than a random killing, after all, you already targeted this player, and you are profiting. Why should they suffer more? Makes no sense.
Without the Assassin having some sort if assassination ability, there would be no point in training as an assassin. If the only thing an assassin can do better than a simple killer is, send the victim to another respawn point, that really does not compensate for all of the training required.
Anyone could then just say, hey I'm an Assassin, take the contract and kill the person, without having to train in the evil aligned arts of assassination.
I understand there are no classes in PFO, but there are professions that require advanced skills. In order to entice players to train their characters in these skills, there has to be an incentive for doing so. This is the same argument I made with Bandit, and the same argument that was made about Paladins. Unless of course you believe that all a Paladin is is someone who calls himself a "Paladin" and has a strong sense of righteous indignation over the evils if the world, and then proceeds to crush the evil doers.
As I said earlier, if I were to play an Assassin, I would require that my employer transfer the Death Curse over to me as part of he contract. But, I would rather GW give the Assassin something more than just a sever the respawn point ability.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the quote you provided, "rebuke or salute your killer, at the cost of your own reputation," means that if you salute them, you get a negative reputation boost and they get a positive one.Oh in that case, it is even more ridiculous than I thought.
Right, like I said in the post that you quoted, I know you think it is ridiculous, but I don't think it is ridiculous, and I think there are probably others that don't think it's ridiculous. I think it is a good idea to include so that actions that the game would normally punish but which one feels shouldn't be punished can be judged on an individual, person-to-person basis.
@Kobold Cleaver I was operating under the assumption that 'salute' was the name of the mechanic that they were talking about months ago.
I could be wrong... it wouldn't be the first time... but I don't see how you can read that sentence as anything except "You spend reputation to salute or rebuke your killer."
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Goblin Squad Member
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"you salute them, you get a negative reputation boost and they get a positive"
This does not strike you as ridiculous? Again, if a victim is killed by someone, even if it were a fair fight, why on Earth would they chose to take an additional reputation hit to salute the person that just killed him?
I might understand saluting the player, and giving him a boost, but not at my expense of reputation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The current assassin ability is consequence enough. It gives organizations the ability to take people out of a fight, when they would otherwise re-spawn and get back into the battle. One thing I would add is that assassins cant be placed on enemy lists.
Severing equipment threads should only be for death curses. Threads are there to protect honest players. The thread system is pointless if you have a chance to lose items you want to protect. If you are playing under the Rules of Engagement GW defines, your equipment threads should be safe.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Assassin (Evil)
Assassin is for players who want to kill specific other players, or more generally kill other players (as who doesn't like a critical hit bonus?). Assassins do have a signifier of their assassin flag, so their intent may be detected, but they also have a Stealth bonus so they can remain out of sight. Some folks have voiced concern that assassins will not be able to escape since they will be marked as an assassin, but that's what Stealth is for (and if you could hide the assassin flag after completing your kill, the guy you just killed could use chat, a vent server, etc., to tell everyone who killed him anyway).This flag cannot be disabled while Attacker, Criminal, or Heinous (or their 24-hour versions) are active.
While Assassin is active:
The player gets a bonus to Stealth and critical chance that scales up each hour they remain flagged, up to ten hours.
These bonuses reset to the minimum upon gaining the Attacker flag unless the target was the subject of a bounty or assassination contract held by the Assassin. (Remember: you don't get Attacker in wars, if the target already has a PvP flag, etc.)
If an Assassin has had his flag active for at least an hour and kills a character with an active bounty or assassination contract, the Assassin gains bonus reputation up to a daily max. (Any other kills made by the Assassin suffer the normal reputation and alignment losses, so keep collateral damage to a minimum!)Attacks by an Assassin have a chance to sever a link to one of the target's respawn bind spots, meaning they may have not have access to their preferred respawn point if killed. Targets killed by an Assassin have a dramatically higher chance of this happening. So assassinating someone may take them out of the action for a while as they work their way back to their original location over a longer distance.
I read nothing here that the Assassin can not be placed on a enemies list.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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If the victim doesn't have a local bind point, he's not interesting enough to assassinate.Was this meant to be a question or a statement? Either way, I'm not seeing how it is relevant as a point of being "interesting" or not.
The only interests the Assassin should have are, "How much and what are the risks?"
This is not to say the the actual act of the assassination won't be interesting, but the respawn point is likely not anything that the assassin is worried about. How many and where are the respawn points for an individual character are nearly impossible to know. So it does not warrant the energy in thinking about that.
The problem with assassination as it is proposed is that it only increases the chance of doing something that anyone else can do with s bit more luck. Even with that, the result is not very climatic and in no way represents the professionalism or prestige / fear inspiring that an Assassin is known for.
An Assassin has to be and train in an Evil settlement, which is gimped by Dev accounts when compared to other settlements. An Assassin has to be highly trained in stealth, combat arms, disguise, the use of poisons, etc. But, he or she must still kill his prey by dozens of hits ( no back stabbing, critical hits or one shots) and in return he or she will get the chance to send their victim to a spawn point farther away???
Why would an Assassin care about that? He / she was already successful in fulfilling the contract. Even if the victim does come back and kills the Assassin, the Assassin still completed the contract. The location of the respawn means nothing.
If I were to play an Assassin I would require my employer also teanfer to me a Desth Curse on the mark. This would then fly in the face of the argument that Death Curses will be rare, because any Assassin in his right mind would demand it as part of the contract.
The assassin isn't the person who wants the target to die. The buyer is the person who wants the target to die, and I'm speculating that it would be because the target is active and opposing the buyer.
I'm not sure how many assassins will be satisfied with coin as payment for their services, but rest assured that there will be some, and only people who can't or won't pay their price will pay with a death mark; limiting you to targeting people who aren't targeted by bounty hunters but who do initiate attacks that qualify for a death curse. Small market.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ DeciusBrutus
Actually the Dev Blog specifically said this:
"If an Assassin has had his flag active for at least an hour and kills a character with an active bounty or assassination contract, the Assassin gains bonus reputation up to a daily max. "
So actually, an Assassin would be smart to be a Bounty Hunter as well. Certainly a larger market then you might assume.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As a future Assassin of PFO, I will agree with Bluddwolf. I'm not too concerned what the effect of the assassination is, as long as I get paid, BUT it needs to be good enough that people are willing to hire me.
The possibility of them losing there Spawn Thread is ok during times of war, but not really any other time. So does this mean I'm only employed while there is war? I do believe there will be lots of wars, but may not be worth the travel, and I'm sure there will be many more assassins in PFO than who actually admit here on the forums.
I think maybe when the employer "draws up" a contract, they can decide what they want the consequence to be. Rather it be the losing of a spawn point, or maybe a "weaked state" were they cant carry as much, or even they take a penatly on a skill (This one is more for the Gatherers. Lets say you and another miner are both located in the same hex, yet are not in the same CC or even getting along. Both are very good at there gathering skill, and one decides to take action. They hire Me to take him out, and along with death, his mining skill takes a hit.)
As a future Assassin of PFO, I will agree with Bluddwolf. I'm not too concerned what the effect of the assassination is, as long as I get paid, BUT it needs to be good enough that people are willing to hire me.
The possibility of them losing there Spawn Thread is ok during times of war, but not really any other time. So does this mean I'm only employed while there is war? I do believe there will be lots of wars, but may not be worth the travel, and I'm sure there will be many more assassins in PFO than who actually admit here on the forums.
I think maybe when the employer "draws up" a contract, they can decide what they want the consequence to be. Rather it be the losing of a spawn point, or maybe a "weaked state" were they cant carry as much, or even they take a penatly on a skill (This one is more for the Gatherers. Lets say you and another miner are both located in the same hex, yet are not in the same CC or even getting along. Both are very good at there gathering skill, and one decides to take action. They hire Me to take him out, and along with death, his mining skill takes a hit.)
I wonder how much freedom the assassin will have in choosing after effects. It could easily be explained as using special poisons, or specially enchanted weapons to make the kill. But I wonder if the Devs are willing to go that route.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Assuming major bind points(no threads needed) are few and far between, taking out an assassination contract on someone you want out of the zone you are in would effectively keep them away for a while. If they are running a harvesting operation, they will probably get overrun while they are away, or you can go take it over.
Any action that reduces a players ability to play the game, like a skill penalty is a huge no-go area, the community that wants something like that is too small to market to. removing someone from an area is one thing, making it so they can't function as well in entirely different.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure why the point of assassination us being missed here. The victim's delayed return is after the fact and therefore inconsequential.
If I'm an Assassin and I kill you, I have fulfilled my contract. It makes no difference if you return in 5 seconds or 50 minutes, my party of the contract has been earned regardless. Even if my victim returns and kills me, I have completed my task, my death would only delay my return to the tavern to relax and count my gold from the contract.
A truly professional Assassin is not looking to linger around after killing his mark. Removing the victim from the area fir an extended time is not a concern, as I stated earlier. I would kill, and get out, without delay.
Any action that reduces a players ability to play the game, like a skill penalty is a huge no-go area, the community that wants something like that is too small to market to. removing someone from an area is one thing, making it so they can't function as well in entirely different.
Not sure how small that group is actually. In a time of war I would pay to have an enemy commander assassinated and bumped from their nearest bind spot specifically to make it so they can't function well and to remove them ,as much as possible, from being able to play.
I think there will be more of these sorts of instances then you might think, players intentionally desiring to reduce others ability to play.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure why the point of assassination us being missed here. The victim's delayed return is after the fact and therefore inconsequential.
If I'm an Assassin and I kill you, I have fulfilled my contract. It makes no difference if you return in 5 seconds or 50 minutes, my party of the contract has been earned regardless. Even if my victim returns and kills me, I have completed my task, my death would only delay my return to the tavern to relax and count my gold from the contract.
A truly professional Assassin is not looking to linger around after killing his mark. Removing the victim from the area fir an extended time is not a concern, as I stated earlier. I would kill, and get out, without delay.
The delayed return is not for the assassin. It's the reason why someone is willing to pay the assassin. I pay you to kill Nihimon. While he's running back from the back end of nowhere, me and my buddies move in on his harvesting operation and destroy it without him there to defend it.
Hiring an assassin is spending money to make someone not be somewhere for a while.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"you salute them, you get a negative reputation boost and they get a positive"This does not strike you as ridiculous? Again, if a victim is killed by someone, even if it were a fair fight, why on Earth would they chose to take an additional reputation hit to salute the person that just killed him?
I might understand saluting the player, and giving him a boost, but not at my expense of reputation.
For the third time, no, I don't think it is ridiculous to allow this altruistic action. Why on earth would somebody do that, you ask? I put several examples in my first post about the subject.
I'm somewhat baffled as to how this is so hard to understand, so maybe some further explanation of why I feel the way I feel is warranted. You seem to think that what I'm saying is too crazy to be true! lol =P
To me, death is no big deal. When I died in EQ, it gave me a purpose... revenge. I don't blame my attacker. He/she is playing a game... the same game I am playing. We both will win some and lose some; we will both die many times. We are both willing.
Example:
Let's say I am an LG Paladin, and maintaining my LG awesomeness also leads to me having a very high reputation. Using numbers from the blog, let's say I have 7000 reputation out of the max of 7500, and since I haven't engaged in activities that lower my reputation for months, I am now getting 20 reputation points each day.
I come across this bearded, wild-looking, grumpily muttering druid named Being. He seems to be engaging in some suspicious activity, so I hail him. In my queries, I pick up snippets of several concurrent ramblings (alternately directed at me and the air around us) about 'the meekest of acorns can be nurtured to be the mightiest of oaks' and other such True Neutral babble (methinks this one has been nurturing and smoking SOMETHING, but his home must be far outside the jurisdiction of any civilized authority).
I focus my attention on what he might be doing so near to my settlement's local lumbermill. His grumbling begins to take a more frantic tone, and all-of-a-sudden, he begins to attack the structure with animal-like ferocity! I issue a single warning to desist, and then charge to smite this silly old man from Golarion FOR GREAT JUSTICE! He is quicker than he looks, however, and he quickly turns his attention to me. I die.
I laugh IRL because this is by far the most interesting thing I have seen in PFO yet. I salute Being, giving him 50 reputation and losing 50 reputation myself, to thank him for taking the time to make my game experience fun, and to help defray the large reputation hit he took for killing me (due to my high reputation). I am hoping that Being's character can remain viable so he can continue doing the things he is doing... and I hope I bump into him again.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"you salute them, you get a negative reputation boost and they get a positive"This does not strike you as ridiculous? Again, if a victim is killed by someone, even if it were a fair fight, why on Earth would they chose to take an additional reputation hit to salute the person that just killed him?
I might understand saluting the player, and giving him a boost, but not at my expense of reputation.
For the third time, no, I don't think it is ridiculous to allow this altruistic action. Why on earth would somebody do that, you ask? I put several examples in my first post about the subject.
I'm somewhat baffled as to how this is so hard to understand, so maybe some further explanation of why I feel the way I feel is warranted. You seem to think that what I'm saying is too crazy to be true! lol =P
To me, death is no big deal. When I died in EQ, it gave me a purpose... revenge. I don't blame my attacker. He/she is playing a game... the same game I am playing. We both will win some and lose some; we will both die many times. We are both willing.
Example:
Let's say I am an LG Paladin, and maintaining my LG awesomeness also leads to me having a very high reputation. Using numbers from the blog, let's say I have 7000 reputation out of the max of 7500, and since I haven't engaged in activities that lower my reputation for months, I am now getting 20 reputation points each day.I come across this bearded, wild-looking, grumpily muttering druid named Being. He seems to be engaging in some suspicious activity, so I hail him. In my queries, I pick up snippets of several concurrent ramblings (alternately directed at me and the air around us) about 'the meekest of acorns can be nurtured to be the mightiest of oaks' and other such True Neutral babble (methinks this one has been nurturing and smoking SOMETHING, but his home must be far outside the jurisdiction of any civilized authority).
I focus my attention on what he might be doing so near to my...
I can see your point in this scenario, which has been role played beyond what your typical MMO combat sequence will be. I might actually salute someone, for killing me, but the relationship and respect would have to have been there already. Not given lightly, and not given to any random who happened to take me down.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Exactly. As I said in my first post, I might see myself using it once a month. Each person will decide how much they will use the system. If my character does not have a very high reputation, reputation might be so precious to me that I never use it.
I see the salute as a way to let players 'trump' the automatic reactions of the reputation system in those fringe cases where it doesn't have the desired effect. It must cost the player something, otherwise it is open to abuse, which is one of the bullets of "Behaviors we don't want:" in the blog Screaming For Vengeance.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Honestly I find death curses, bounties, and assassinations all ridiculous. The death curse is pretty useless, fairly wimpy, and is a nusance that isnt very condusive to PvP. I killed you. Get over it, or come after me. (P.S. multiple death curses will be a good way to get on my Kill on Sight list)
Bounties and Assassination contracts dont ring true either. They lack in both bite and depth in thier current incarnations. I think they should both be expensive (reputation) enough to make people really think about it before going through with it. And they shouldnt be something you can throw around nilly willy. Their should be a build up so that these types of contracts have meaning and depth
And part of this depth and meaning could come from real consequences or real effects that the victims of either bounties or assassinations could feel. Or maybe assassins could get special training that allowed them to hit thier mark in a very assassin like way, that those without the training couldnt do. Like murdering someone in a crowd and noone even saw you, or ensuring that the next consumable someone ate would be insta-death. These arent necessarily ballanced ideas, but hopefully you get the point.
As for Bounties, I like Bludds proposal in the other thread more than the current one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Any action that reduces a players ability to play the game, like a skill penalty is a huge no-go area, the community that wants something like that is too small to market to. removing someone from an area is one thing, making it so they can't function as well is entirely different.
Not sure how small that group is actually. In a time of war I would pay to have an enemy commander assassinated and bumped from their nearest bind spot specifically to make it so they can't function well and to remove them ,as much as possible, from being able to play.
I think there will be more of these sorts of instances then you might think, players intentionally desiring to reduce others ability to play.
I'm talking about things like:
- The target doesn't deal as much damage for 1 hour- The target has 50% less HP for 1 hour
- The target loses 50% mining efficiency on all their owned installations
- the target is forced to play in xxx zone, which may or may not have the activity they want to do.
It is the same logic as why CC abilities are short duration, most people don't want to lose control of their character for more than a moment.
Taking someone out of a battle is not 'reducing their ability to play', their mechanical ability is still intact, the just have to work their way back to the fight and make it past the enemy lines.
In war taking someone out of a fight is a necessary option, otherwise it is just becomes spawn camping.
Contracting an assassination should be much like the Death Curse. It should cost the employer a high cost in reputation. Instead of the "Sever Respawn Link" or perhaps to also include a "Sever Thread" for one or more items. Basically combining the affects of both assassination and death curse.
If there is valid grounds for a Death Curse, nothing is stopping you from using both a Death Curse AND an Assassination contract. I would say it is a valid nit-pick to suggest that Assassinations should be a formal option of Bounty Hunting Contracts, but that seems highly likely to me.
It brings me back to reputation being looked at differently. Evil characters should have certain benefits for low reputation, whereas good aligned characters gain from high reputation. Or the concept of good vs. evil reputation should be removed and instead thought if as simply positive and negative reputation.
Re-read your own words there. Reputation is already predicated on a scale of high and low, NOT good and evil reputation.
EDIT: Reputation is always discussed, by fans as well as GW, in terms of higher and lower...
EXCEPT on the Blog post first introducing it, in addition to higher/lower terminology,
Reputation is included on a 'table' explaining the -7,500 to +7,500 scales also applying to Alignment,
and the different Reputation ratings are labelled 'Good' and 'Poor' (not Evil).
I don't really see GW ever refer to 'Good Reputation' any more, so I think it's taken care of,
even if that one Blog Post was never Edited to be a bit clearer/less confusing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Considering that we don't know what the actual consequences are, I think it's really hard to say they need to be greater.
I think it's a great idea to brainstorm what those consequences should be.
The respawn-location thread cutting thing was part of the assassin flag blog post a few weeks ago, but BW wants to cut item threads because he always wants to push things to get him as close to griefing as possible. If he gets to cut a few item threads, he'll want full looting. If he gets full looting, he'll want to inflict XP loss. If he got that, he'd probably want to inflict permadeath. In the end, it comes down to schadenfreude.
He doesn't seem to understand that people aren't going to keep playing if they're victimized all the time, and when enough of the less fortunate leave, that endangers the game for him as well. People put up with the heavy PK presence in UO as long as they did because there weren't many options available, but PFO isn't going to be the only fantasy sandbox MMO around. If it wants to hold its niche it will have to balance carefully between allowing player conflict to keep the world changing but not letting individual losses drive people away.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hang on...
If you assassinate me in game, why should I get penalized for it?
You just killed me, taking my non threaded stuff and sending me to a spawn point. You probably made some gold off it and settled someone elses contract.
I guess Im missing the point of it... unless your just looking for the lulz... In which case head over to eveonline.com... It allows this and its a finished game.
Maybe the assassin should lose some abilities for a time, since he assassinated someone by using special abilities. (which of course doesnt make sense either)
Another thought, if assassins become the end all in killling, everyone will be doing it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The thing about assassins, they are suppost to be the master of death and killing. The assassin uses many tools (poison, blade, bolt, deception) to apply his trade. Anyone can wield a sword and stab someone, but an assassin can kill a king while he sits on his throne in a room full of people. A good assassin can even flee from said example.
As a future assassin in PFO, I have an issue with the little bit we have been told about the combat system and assassinations. What if I get the contract to go into a LG city and kill the mayor/king/ect? For one, I would need a way to get into the city and get close to the target, study his habits and learn the perfect place and time to strike. Then I need to get close enough, kill him, and get out without raising suspition. Simply sneaking in I think will be boring and reminds me of a rogue in WoW and stealthing in to gank people inside stormwind and ironforge. I want to be able to bluff my way past the guards, walk freely and mingle with the common folk, and then walk up to my mark and stab him with a posioned blade with my hand over his mouth so he can't scream. Sit him on a bench and walk out. Without having 1 shot kills in the game at all, I can't do this. Without a way to subdue my target and kill him quickly, I can't do this.
Now I am fine with the currently proposed combat system, never missing, but it taking time and no random crits and 1 shotting people. That is fine. I am asking for something like an exception. While flagged as assasssin, AND only vs the mark on my contract, I atleast have a chance (% based on skill vs target's "level" or something) to 1 shot him. But have this "ability" on a cooldown or something. Once an hour, or a day. I would be good with that. Honestly, how else can I truely kill someone of renown and power inside a settlement surrounded by guards AND stand a remote chance of getting out without cleaving a bloody path of guards?
Durring war and a few other special situations, I can see the bind point thing being valid, and that is fine to keep that. I would even be ok with NOT doing the death curse, de-threading someone (I prolly won't be around to loot the body anyway) but MY big thing is I need a way to quickly kill my target so I can leave before I get jumped by everyone and their sister.
Side Note: I can't find it any more, but there was a thread started here about floating names and giving false names as part of the bluff/disguse skill and that would apply to my points here too. That would help to get to a target, and limit the TS/Vent/Mumble users from overridding what should had been a clean kill and exit. Not having my name or atleast having a false name would give us leeway and flexablitly. It is all spelled out in that thread if anyone could link it for me. Anyway, that is my point on this topic. Good day.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Griefing will be handled by moderators, not a factor for in-game mechanics. I find the whole notion that griefing will be a problem to border on hysteria. I see no such evidence in any games I've played, perhaps since AOC's launch, that griefing exists to the levels that it is feared here. Please note, I am not criticizing you for bringing it up, I'm just pointing out that I believe it is a non issue
Im actually in agreement with you about the 'griefing hysteria' bit. My comment about the anti-griefing/ganking bit was more to indicate that someone could upset at various in-game actions and decide to hire an assassin to 'get even'. Ive got some reservations about how much in the way of 'anti-griefing mechanics' are necessary, if any.
As far as alignment vs reputation, Im still a little confused as to what the final picture is going to look like as a finished product. I just feel its important to distinguish between the three axes (lawful vs illegal, moral/good vs immoral/evil, community-favored vs community-disfavored).
Overall Im still waiting to see how all of this pans out.
The thing about assassins, they are suppost to be the master of death and killing. The assassin uses many tools (poison, blade, bolt, deception) to apply his trade. Anyone can wield a sword and stab someone, but an assassin can kill a king while he sits on his throne in a room full of people. A good assassin can even flee from said example.
As a future assassin in PFO, I have an issue with the little bit we have been told about the combat system and assassinations. What if I get the contract to go into a LG city and kill the mayor/king/ect? For one, I would need a way to get into the city and get close to the target, study his habits and learn the perfect place and time to strike. Then I need to get close enough, kill him, and get out without raising suspition. Simply sneaking in I think will be boring and reminds me of a rogue in WoW and stealthing in to gank people inside stormwind and ironforge. I want to be able to bluff my way past the guards, walk freely and mingle with the common folk, and then walk up to my mark and stab him with a posioned blade with my hand over his mouth so he can't scream. Sit him on a bench and walk out. Without having 1 shot kills in the game at all, I can't do this. Without a way to subdue my target and kill him quickly, I can't do this.
Now I am fine with the currently proposed combat system, never missing, but it taking time and no random crits and 1 shotting people. That is fine. I am asking for something like an exception. While flagged as assasssin, AND only vs the mark on my contract, I atleast have a chance (% based on skill vs target's "level" or something) to 1 shot him. But have this "ability" on a cooldown or something. Once an hour, or a day. I would be good with that. Honestly, how else can I truely kill someone of renown and power inside a settlement surrounded by guards AND stand a remote chance of getting out without cleaving a bloody path of guards?
Durring war and a few other special situations, I can see the bind point thing being...
Good point(s). As it stands I don't see many people taking up the assassin role because of their lack of abilities that enable them to assassinate anyone. I'm not particularly happy with the always hitting, no crit, nothing random combat system. For an assassin though I don't see how they will ever complete a contract and live long enough to escape. I like giving them a crit chance against their contract target, that seems fair. I like the idea of having their name disguised for a time to foil voice chat, that's an excellent way to handle it. There needs to be a disguise skill that alters the physical look of a character too, perhaps that, along with the name scrambling could be woven into a disguise skill?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hang on...
If you assassinate me in game, why should I get penalized for it?
That is the nature of assassination. One type is 'character' assassination, as an example.
If your reputation is lowered you should be unable to train high level skills until that debuff is removed somehow.
I would further suggest your diplomacy skill should get a temporary debuff so that (in my conceptual model of the game) you will temporarily be less able to enter non-aligned facilities (where diplomacy may enable entry to training faciliites two steps removed from your own alignment).
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Keovar
but BW wants to cut item threads because he always wants to push things to get him as close to griefing as possible. If he gets to cut a few item threads, he'll want full looting. If he gets full looting, he'll want to inflict XP loss. If he got that, he'd probably want to inflict permadeath. In the end, it comes down to schadenfreude.
What I will always push for is a profession (class) being able to do what it is supposed to. I will push for specialized classes requiring specialized and difficult skills to achieve. I will push for a characters death to be extraordinary and meaningful.
What I'm asking for here is what is already in the game under the title of Death Curse. It is limited in frequency, which I also suggested for assassination. I further suggest limiting it to highly skilled characters which would further limit it.
Like Milo mentioned above, I think of Assassins more as political predators, and not snipers on the battlefield. A sniper on the battlefield would be more concerned with the severing of the respawn thread of their priority target. A political assassin is more concerned with the quick kill and get out.
As I stated earlier, nothing more than what Death Curse provides. So if I am looking to escalate towards griefing, so are the Devs. As I also stayed, if I were an Assassin, I would request or even demand as part of my contract the transfer of a Death Curse.
Finally, what I hope for and envision is when you are hiring an Assassin, that you a few things in the back of your mind: This person in front of me is a professional, highly skilled and capable, dangerous and expensive.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Keovar
but BW wants to cut item threads because he always wants to push things to get him as close to griefing as possible. If he gets to cut a few item threads, he'll want full looting. If he gets full looting, he'll want to inflict XP loss. If he got that, he'd probably want to inflict permadeath. In the end, it comes down to schadenfreude.What I will always push for is a profession (class) being able to do what it is supposed to. I will push for specialized classes requiring specialized and difficult skills to achieve. I will push for a characters death to be extraordinary and meaningful.
What I'm asking for here is what is already in the game under the title of Death Curse. It is limited in frequency, which I also suggested for assassination. I further suggest limiting it to highly skilled characters which would further limit it.
Like Milo mentioned above, I think of Assassins more as political predators, and not snipers on the battlefield. A sniper on the battlefield would be more concerned with the severing of the respawn thread of their priority target. A political assassin is more concerned with the quick kill and get out.
As I stated earlier, nothing more than what Death Curse provides. So if I am looking to escalate towards griefing, so are the Devs. As I also stayed, if I were an Assassin, I would request or even demand as part of my contract the transfer of a Death Curse.
Finally, what I hope for and envision is when you are hiring an Assassin, that you a few things in the back of your mind: This person in front of me is a professional, highly skilled and capable, dangerous and expensive.
The bold word being the key LOL.
Just to reiterate the last line there that bludd said; as an assassin, we should be held to a standard the same as any other professional. If you hire a blacksmith to craft a sword, you expect a reasonable price, quality work, and a professional additude. When you higher a caravan guard, you expect a skilled warrior capable of fending off a bandit attack, should you encounter one, the higher the cost, you expect the high skilled warrior. This very same concept applies assassins. If you have the money and desige to aquire an assassin, then you should get your moneies worth. Killing someone isn't enough, as any tom, dick, and harry can do that, but to truely destroy someone, weather through a public assassination, or through killing someone who beleaves he is unkillable. (through guards and location within a large settlement or whatnot.) As such, assassins should be skilled and have abilities that allow them to do the very things asked of them. They should be rarer and expensive. Nearly anyone can be a bounty hunter, though the truely skilled can catch nearly any prey, but the assassin should not be a solo career. Yes it should be lucatrive, expecially for higher profile targets and abnormal death requests, but there should be a desire to have a "2nd life" weather as a bandit, or farmer, or whatever.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I still don't think there is a good reason to put the Death Curse on assassinations. It doesn't make sense. From the VERY LITTLE we know about assassinations right now, they are like bounties except the target isn't on your 'killer list.' There are negatives for the contract issuer to reflect this difference.
Why should we make them as/more powerful than bounties?
They are an interesting mechanic because they have a different, unique outcome; they can sever the target's bindpoint.
The assassin is just the medium through which the contract issuer is exacting his toll on the target. The assassin is paid... that's what the assassin gets out of it. If somebody sets a low price on an assassination contract and no assassin believes it is worth their time, then the contract issuer will have to pay a higher price to get the effect they desire. It's up to them to decide whether it is worth it.
We know so little about assassination, it's no wonder one could imagine them not working out very well. I think Nihimon had it right when he suggested we brainstorm: Can we imagine some additional, unique effects that keep assassination meaningful in its role as a bounty for which the issuer doesn't have to be victimized in order to take out the contract?
Some of the things we don't know:
--If assassins will have a set of skills to train (like bounty hunters).
--What the requirements for setting an assassination contract will be (bounties: the player must be on your 'killer list').
--What rules there will be for these contracts (bounties: the 24-hour time limit, ability to limit who can take the contract, etc)
--What the limits are for who can accept the contract... for instance, could a LG paladin accept an assassin contract (at a large alignment hit, of course)? Must you have the evil Assassin flag on to sever the bindpoint threads?
Something we do know (that hasn't yet been stated here):
--The Assassin (Evil) flag is the only long-term flag that mentions a bonus specifically for bounties.
So, at the very least, even in the extreme case where few people ever place an assassination contract, those flagged as assassins will be killing other players through bounty contracts. This keeps with Ryan's numerous suggestions that LE settlements will be the likely home of the best bounty hunters. Assassination contracts are just 'different' in that the aim is not (necessarily) to take revenge (as bounties are), but besides the obvious 'hurting the other guy' by forcing targeted PvP on him/her, they have a unique effect that will be desirable at times.
EDIT:
So far, I think the 'rep gain for the target' idea in the OP is an interesting, unique idea. I can't think of a good reason not to use that to balance it back towards the victim if we think up some further damaging effects for being assassinated. The increased crit chance from the Assassin flag is much better than the suggestion for a 'chance to 1-shot' in my mind. 1-shotting isn't fun for anybody, even if it can be argued that "that's how assassination is supposed to be," which I'm not sure of. I can think of many failed assassinations or successful assassinations in which the assassin was caught. JFK is the only one I can remember off the top of my head that was successful and unsolved, though I'm sure there are plenty of others. I just don't think that is the norm... but maybe I'm making a mistake comparing it to RL, when perhaps we are used to the 'super assassins' of the typical fantasy setting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...Why should we make them as/more powerful than bounties?...Perhaps because they are arguably preemptive bounties?
Could I bother you to explain a bit?
That's basically the reason that I believe they shouldn't be as powerful as bounties: Because the target of the assassination contract doesn't have to hurt anybody in order to have the contract taken out on him/her. The bounty contract is limited to those that have killed somebody that wasn't 'fair game.' So far, no similar limit has been suggested for the assassination contract (though, again, it could well be in the plan... we just don't know much at all). Personally, I feel assassination contracts should not be limited; let the issuer decide why to use it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sorry: I am trying to be conscientiously clear in my writing, a great personal challenge, and clarity is argued to be simple. My assumption in this endeavor is that out of respect for the reader's ability to infer, not everything needs to be said.
Now I can report that I tried, and it utterly failed so now I can seem as erudite as I pretend to be, and obfuscate with complexity and detail when caught out.
The argument goes something like this: Fear is a significant element of assassination that would otherwise not be present under models of lesser severity. Bounty should be feared similarly, except lesser because it is consciously avoidable (by self-moderation).
Fear of Assassination should promote the profession of the bodyguard.
So there should be bodyguard contracts along with bounty contracts, and assassination should be greater than bounty hunting. Assassination is bounty hunting taken to an Art form.