Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Just a brainstorm idea, but what do y'all think of the victim of an Assassination getting a medium term (1 hour?) debuff that causes his attack rolls to use the die from one tier lower, with a similar effect on his defense rolls and his Unit Combat effectiveness?
That's a good option; I would like to see an option (on the assassin's part) to instead cancel the bonuses provided by the character to their settlement/chartered company for a period of time.
If you assassinate the captain of the guard, the guards of the settlement aren't as effective for a few hours. If you manage to assassinate the master smith, the forges might fall silent for a day. When the bandits' security specialist has his mystical connection to the physical realm severed, his contributions to hiding their hideout aren't as effective.
Goblin Squad Member
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That's a good option; I would like to see an option (on the assassin's part) to instead cancel the bonuses provided by the character to their settlement/chartered company for a period of time.If you assassinate the captain of the guard, the guards of the settlement aren't as effective for a few hours. If you manage to assassinate the master smith, the forges might fall silent for a day. When the bandits' security specialist has his mystical connection to the physical realm severed, his contributions to hiding their hideout aren't as effective.
That's actually a really cool idea, and it encourages assassination to be used against political or strategic targets to weaken a settlement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, great suggestion DB. Coupled with the spawn point severing mechanic, it really makes assassins just what their name means, and not the 'stone cold killer' class. They're professionals that get paid to perform a strategic hit on a military or political target as opposed to a stealthy killer ganking merchants for the lolz.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Over all i dont think assassins should get super powers beyond other combat archtypes. However there is something I would like to see.
what can make an assassin dangerous is that no one knows who it is. I mean even if you see them, unless you know them or seen a picture no one knows who assassinated someone. In an MMO you cant have this.
So here is what i propose.
Unless an assassin decides to out himself he can take a contract and no one knows its him. Other assassins would just see "Contract under work". The assassin has a choice to reveal himself to the client. The assassin can choose to use a false name to work under. This false name would be official. If the client and the assassin ever meet then maybe a disguise vs perception, with wearing different clothes adding to the DC to recognize the assassin.
Second the assassin would not have a nameplate while carrying out the assassination. obviously there needs to be controls so someone cannot walk around like that all the time.
So why do this? What does this add to the game?
It keeps assassins mysterious if they want to be. Maybe Tony the Baker is more than just a baker, but man you cant just prove that by going, Yeah Tony the baker killed me i saw his name.
It keeps the aura of fear. The person killed does not know why they were killed, BUT more importantly they dont know WHO killed them or WHO ordered them dead.
It also allows evil folks to do preemtive strikes against others without giving away who is doing it. If you see Favored assasin of Evil City 1 killing your leaders, well you know who is after you. But if you see unnamed assasins killing them well...now you have to stay on your toes because you dont know who it is.
So how will an will an assasin get her name out? Word of mouth.
Hey folks there is this guy I want to kill anyone know a good wetboy?
The Scariest part is not know who wants you dead, who is going to do it, or why. By the time you even know something like this is up...well its because you have a knife in your back.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are absolutely crits.
If the result of the roll plus the attack bonus equaled or exceeded the target's defense, the attack does full damage and has a chance to be a critical hit. This is a separate randomized calculation that compares the attack's crit rating to the target's crit resistance. A critical hit doesn't do more damage, but instead applies an injury that debilitates the target for some time. NPCs (who wouldn't care about long-term drawbacks) immediately expend injuries for additional damage.
I see. I was sure I was right about the no crits, but I found where I went wrong while researching:
Goblinworks Blog: Murder by Numbers ..."We don't presently have a concept for a complete miss/block for the same reason we don't have critical hits that double damage: it introduces an element that can make combat extremely unpredictable, and which are unfun for the person on the other side." Wed, Feb 27, 2013, 04:25 PM by Stephen Cheney (Goblinworks Game Designer)
My apologies for asserting an untruth. It was not intended to be untrue.
There are absolutely crits.
If the result of the roll plus the attack bonus equaled or exceeded the target's defense, the attack does full damage and has a chance to be a critical hit. This is a separate randomized calculation that compares the attack's crit rating to the target's crit resistance. A critical hit doesn't do more damage, but instead applies an injury that debilitates the target for some time. NPCs (who wouldn't care about long-term drawbacks) immediately expend injuries for additional damage.I see. I was sure I was right about the no crits, but I found where I went wrong while researching:
Goblinworks Blog: Murder by Numbers ..."We don't presently have a concept for a complete miss/block for the same reason we don't have critical hits that double damage: it introduces an element that can make combat extremely unpredictable, and which are unfun for the person on the other side." Wed, Feb 27, 2013, 04:25 PM by Stephen Cheney (Goblinworks Game Designer)
My apologies for asserting an untruth. It was not intended to be untrue.
I think "most" of us knew you were referring to crits as they are commonly thought of, being much more damaging then normal hits.
it is kind of confusing. having a chance to apply debilitating conditions on only some hits does sound exactly like 'an element that can make combat extremely unpredictable'. i think everybody here just takes GW at their word.
There's a difference between a rare debuff and a rare insta-kill.
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Goblin Squad Member
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it is kind of confusing. having a chance to apply debilitating conditions on only some hits does sound exactly like 'an element that can make combat extremely unpredictable'. i think everybody here just takes GW at their word.
I think the intention is that the debuff can be impactful without being so debilitating that the fight is over before you have a chance to react to it. For example, a debuff that reduces your maximum stamina by 25% is certainly going to be painful, and will likely cost you a fair fight, but you'll be able to see the fight has turned against you and attempt to get away/call for help instead of being insta-gibbed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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IMO the biggest and most clear distinction to me. In general in most MMO's the main benefit of crits in PVP, is to 1-2 shot someone to ensure that the healer does not get a chance to land a heal on the target. Debuffs on the other hand are the exact oposite, depending of course on what they do. They actually give the cleric an oprotunity to respond and land a beneficial spell to remove the debuff. Yes they do effect the turn of the battle, which they are supposed to, but the key point is, they do not automatically win or lose the battle.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really like GrumpyMel's idea about costing the victim a Refresh.
I really, really like Decius's idea about debuffing the victim's contribution towards Settlement or Unit Combat leadership.
I think Decius's suggestion to provide a variety of these kinds of options that can be specified in the Assassination Contract was inspired.
I think it's also important to keep in mind that these effects we're discussing now should be the result of a successful Assassination, which is different than the effects of being hit or killed by someone who is flagged as an Assassin.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Offhand, I think the maximum possible combat bonuses/penalties from an assassin attempt should be roughly equivalent to a tier of equipment and an extra attacker, meaning that the target, once attacked, needs two allies better equipped than the assassin to defeat him before the target dies.
I think a significant (40% or so) buff on the attacker and debuff on the target should be adequate.
This would be only after the active defenses had been circumvented and could be would be accessible only to specially trained and equipped assassins, who would have additional penalties vs. anyone but the target.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Offhand, I think the maximum possible combat bonuses/penalties from an assassin attempt should be roughly equivalent to a tier of equipment and an extra attacker, meaning that the target, once attacked, needs two allies better equipped than the assassin to defeat him before the target dies.
I think a significant (40% or so) buff on the attacker and debuff on the target should be adequate.
This would be only after the active defenses had been circumvented and could be would be accessible only to specially trained and equipped assassins, who would have additional penalties vs. anyone but the target.
I cant help but hold to the same argument. If you give that kind of bonus to assassins, then everyone will be able to do it. Pure and simple, everyone will train up to have that kind of bonus and use assassination contracts to give them the ability to use it.
For Example: I have trained up an alt to be an assassin. I happen to know where DeciusBrutus is adventuring atm, and want to kill him. With my main or another alt, I put a contract on DeciusBrutus and accept the contract with my assassin. DeciusBrutus' party of 3 cannot save him fast enough and of course also die because I have 2 other friends around that also happen to have assassination contracts on DeciusBrutus' party members.
Win/Win for the flavor of the month: Assassin
Or maybe flavor of the year if it takes that long LOL
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Goblin Squad Member
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But you have just summarized what an assassin is best at, Xeen. A large alpha strike on a single target - governed by contracts, stealth and the like.
Other classes are just as powerful, though in different ways, and have exactly the same effect.
DeciusBrutus and his party are surprised by three mages that drop several quick fire, high level AoE attacks on them all. Same results as your scenario.
DeciusBrutus and his party are surprised by three divine casters that use CC spells and then either smash at them with their two handed maces or go on to cast harm/implosion/energy drain. Same result as your scenario.
DeciusBrutus and his party are surprised by three heavy armored grunts that are either two weapon paladins smiting the evil party into the ground very quickly, or two handed, power attacking, specialized warriors that likewise smash the party quickly into oblivion.
I guess what I am getting at, is that any of the archetypes at their optimal training level (2.5+ years of training) will be able to take other parties out if they use their skills correctly, attack in a coordinated fashion and have surprise. It's not just an assassin thing.
Sure, an assassin might do it faster and with more surprise that other characters, but they can't take as much damage in return as the grunts, can't heal themselves, cast spells or wear heavy armor like the clerics, not can they cast an array of arcane offensive, defensive and escape spells.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sure, an assassin might do it faster and with more surprise that other characters, but they can't take as much damage in return as the grunts, can't heal themselves, cast spells or wear heavy armor like the clerics, not can they cast an array of arcane offensive, defensive and escape spells.
Except that a) assassin is not a class/role/archetype (whatever we're calling them, like rogue, or paladin, or sorcerer), and b) PFO is a classless system, so they certainly *can* do all these things.
DeciusBrutus and his party are surprised by three mages that drop several quick fire, high level AoE attacks on them all. Same results as your scenario.
DeciusBrutus and his party are surprised by three divine casters that use CC spells and then either smash at them with their two handed maces or go on to cast harm/implosion/energy drain. Same result as your scenario.
DeciusBrutus and his party are surprised by three heavy armored grunts that are either two weapon paladins smiting the evil party into the ground very quickly, or two handed, power attacking, specialized warriors that likewise smash the party quickly into oblivion.
Sure, the ambushers get an advantage as first movers, but after a quick scramble it's a 3v3 fight. It's not over in that alpha strike.
In none of those situations is someone proposing that any of the attacking characters should be equivalent to two and a half defending characters of equal skill.Offhand, I think the maximum possible combat bonuses/penalties from an assassin attempt should be roughly equivalent to a tier of equipment and an extra attacker, meaning that the target, once attacked, needs two allies better equipped than the assassin to defeat him before the target dies.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sure, an assassin might do it faster and with more surprise that other characters, but they can't take as much damage in return as the grunts, can't heal themselves, cast spells or wear heavy armor like the clerics, not can they cast an array of arcane offensive, defensive and escape spells.Except that a) assassin is not a class/role/archetype (whatever we're calling them, like rogue, or paladin, or sorcerer), and b) PFO is a classless system, so they certainly *can* do all these things.
We don't know that yet. As it is a prestige class in PF, it quite possible will be a class - as much as they exist in PFO. Also, to do all these things at optimal level, it will take 17+ years of constant training.
DeciusBrutus and his party are surprised by three mages that drop several quick fire, high level AoE attacks on them all. Same results as your scenario.
DeciusBrutus and his party are surprised by three divine casters that use CC spells and then either smash at them with their two handed maces or go on to cast harm/implosion/energy drain. Same result as your scenario.
DeciusBrutus and his party are surprised by three heavy armored grunts that are either two weapon paladins smiting the evil party into the ground very quickly, or two handed, power attacking, specialized warriors that likewise smash the party quickly into oblivion.
Sure, the ambushers get an advantage as first movers, but after a quick scramble it's a 3v3 fight. It's not over in that alpha strike.
In none of those situations is someone proposing that any of the attacking characters should be equivalent to two and a half defending characters of equal skill.
I'm not advocating that an elite assassin should be worth two and a half defenders, but simply saying that an assassins (and rogue to a lesser extent) primary advantage is the surprise alpha strike. It is what the archetype (along with poison) is all about. Other archetypes have their own, just as powerful, advantages. I don't want people looking at an alpha strike surprise class, and screaming for nerfs or calling it a fotm class, simply because they do not like that style of play.
Everything needs to have its place and be relatively balanced.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Xeen,
Don't you think, given time, everyone will eventually have quite a few powerful abilities that we normally associate with certain classes?
I would expect that everyone will have a self healing ability for example. I'd expect the same to be true for stealth, back stabbing, fire ball, invisibility, etc etc
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Goblin Squad Member
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We don't know that yet. As it is a prestige class in PF, it quite possible will be a class - as much as they exist in PFO. Also, to do all these things at optimal level, it will take 17+ years of constant training.
It would take 17+ years to max all those classes, but not to get a few select abilities from them. For your MMO-typical burst DPS class, even a few cure moderate spells, or even one greater invis is a huge advantage. Synergy often has a multiplicative, rather than additive, effect.
I'm not advocating that an elite assassin should be worth two and a half defenders, but simply saying that an assassins (and rogue to a lesser extent) primary advantage is the surprise alpha strike. It is what the archetype (along with poison) is all about. Other archetypes have...
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that you shouldn't be able to build a high DPS character. What people are objecting to is the one-shot, or "dead before you know it" high DPS. The devs have stated an intent to avoid spike damage. It's been suggested that the way to reconcile that with the traditional "debilitating first wound" is to incorporate a system of debuffs and/or buffs. Yes, it means you don't get to kill them without them ever knowing you're there, but it preserves the meaningful alpha strike as a game changer. Maybe the assassin's strike applies two critical hit debuffs. Maybe it reduces their stamina by 25-50%. Maybe it's got a poison on it that causes them to use a tier lower on their attack roll from their blurred vision. There are a lot of ways to still perserve the brutal first strike that don't involve a massive damaage spike.
Hmmm... this has changed from a discussion about assassination needing greater consequences to assassins needing to be able to do their 'job' better... primarily by way of crits.
Let me point something out to you guys. In fiction - pretty much any fantasy based fiction where a protagonist is being hunted by an assassin - when said assassin finally gets the drop on the protagonist, does he one shot him? Or even kill him quickly? Obviously the answer here is no. Even in fiction where the protagonist IS an assassin(my favorite is Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos series) when the assassin is going after a powerful target, there's usually a long drawn out fight. Brust normally has his protagonist bring friends or 'employees' to deal with guards and such.
Why in the world do you think it should be any different in PWO? Should the initial, surprise attack hit harder and perhaps give an advantage of some kind, perhaps an automatic critical in their current critical system? Perhaps. HOWEVER, to every player, THEIR character is the protagonist of the story. No one will ever want to be one shot, or even injured so badly that there is no chance of recovering to win the fight.
That's what it seems most of you are advocating for. Again, in the fiction(from either side of the coin) against 'tough'(i.e. PC's or 'named' NPC's)) opponents, fantasy genre assassins don't one shot their targets or even anything close to it. That's something for people who've played too much Hitman or Assassin's Creed. Heck, even in Assassin's Creed it's difficult or impossible to one shot the tougher targets, at least without a ton of setup.
My point is, I think a lot of you guys are coming at this from the wrong point of view. Sure, an assassin should be deadly, a lethal and quick killer. There needs to be something to reward a player for going down this path, and to allow it to be profitable.
I just don't think the ability to instagib an opponent(or even anywhere close to it) is the answer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Much of what the assassin does is reach the target where the target believes he is safe.
Perhaps the peculiar power of the assassin should be that if he can reach the walls of a settlement he can force an one-on-one engagement with his target, even though the victim is supposedly safe within that settlement.
Once he has the victim in combat they can fight uninterrupted, using whatever powers they have earned.
Perhaps the game spawns a combat pit and both appear within it until one or the other either dies or surrenders.
Provide an opportunity for the victim to try and buy the assassin off.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Sure, an assassin might do it faster and with more surprise that other characters, but they can't take as much damage in return as the grunts, can't heal themselves, cast spells or wear heavy armor like the clerics, not can they cast an array of arcane offensive, defensive and escape spells.Except that a) assassin is not a class/role/archetype (whatever we're calling them, like rogue, or paladin, or sorcerer), and b) PFO is a classless system, so they certainly *can* do all these things.
DeciusBrutus and his party are surprised by three mages that drop several quick fire, high level AoE attacks on them all. Same results as your scenario.
DeciusBrutus and his party are surprised by three divine casters that use CC spells and then either smash at them with their two handed maces or go on to cast harm/implosion/energy drain. Same result as your scenario.
DeciusBrutus and his party are surprised by three heavy armored grunts that are either two weapon paladins smiting the evil party into the ground very quickly, or two handed, power attacking, specialized warriors that likewise smash the party quickly into oblivion.
Sure, the ambushers get an advantage as first movers, but after a quick scramble it's a 3v3 fight. It's not over in that alpha strike.
In none of those situations is someone proposing that any of the attacking characters should be equivalent to two and a half defending characters of equal skill.Offhand, I think the maximum possible combat bonuses/penalties from an assassin attempt should be roughly equivalent to a tier of equipment and an extra attacker, meaning that the target, once attacked, needs two allies better equipped than the assassin to defeat him before the target dies.
I didn't suggest that that assassin would survive the attack, only that he would kill the target using an attack that takes ~10 hours of prep time and provides an alignment hit, and only on a designated individual target, not on a target of opportunity.
An ordinary sneak attack shouldn't be better than additional numbers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Need to know what the ability does before you can decide how to balance it's requisites.
Well, yeah. I should have quoted what I was referring to.
If you give that kind of bonus to assassins, then everyone will be able to do it. Pure and simple, everyone will train up to have that kind of bonus and use assassination contracts to give them the ability to use it.
I was specifically responding to that.
Also want to point out that the Devs can arrange abilities to where you can't just dip into a "role" for say 2 days and get a cure light wounds, or a stealth. They can arrange it to where players have to dedicate some time before they get a real ability like the assassins strike you guys are talking about.
I figure there will be some abilities that many players opt to train for, but hopefully there won't be these "must build" roles that everyone uses.
Yea, I shouldn't have used that as an example. Actually what I was thinking of is SOW in EQ. Imagine if EQ had PFOs classless system. Everyone would be training in Druid to get Sow, well most people would. My Monk hunted Oasis until the Cyclops popped and got some Jboots :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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I expect that what will actually stop everyone from having "cure light wounds" will be a requirement to have a Holy Symbol in the Focus Slot, or something similar. After all, they really can't make a Cleric wait a week before they get any heal spells.
I think this is likely the limiting factor, but with the plan for three weapon sets to swap between, I don't think it will be that uncommon. They'll just have an inferior holy symbol that they don't mind losing when they die. That leaves people with room for a primary (threaded) weapon, a situational weapon (ranged, or special damage keyword), and one weapon slot for a class feature item (holy symbol, wizard's implement, monk ki focus, etc).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I expect that what will actually stop everyone from having "cure light wounds" will be a requirement to have a Holy Symbol in the Focus Slot, or something similar. After all, they really can't make a Cleric wait a week before they get any heal spells.
Right, the Dev's answer to alot of synergy issues is limited action slots and equipment restrictions....meaning that you can't do X while you've got Y slotted or are using this type of equipment prepared.
It's a reasonable solution and they've already addressed some of the issues I still had with the power of synergy and pick and chose by the class focus mechanic. So I think there is a pretty good framework built there which can be used to keep things balanced.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Much of what the assassin does is reach the target where the target believes he is safe.
Perhaps the peculiar power of the assassin should be that if he can reach the walls of a settlement he can force an one-on-one engagement with his target, even though the victim is supposedly safe within that settlement.
Once he has the victim in combat they can fight uninterrupted, using whatever powers they have earned.
Perhaps the game spawns a combat pit and both appear within it until one or the other either dies or surrenders.
Provide an opportunity for the victim to try and buy the assassin off.
I agree with this and even said it earlier. A highly trained Assassin should be able to get to his target anywhere, including the NPC settlements. I had said, "No where to run or hide".
Even without the one shot or high burst damage, the ability to bring the potential of pvp anywhere would carry with it that suspenseful dread that being hunted by an Assassin should create.
But before the panic sets in, I would preface this with the following requirements:
1. Only ver highly trained ability would unlock this, possibly even maximum skill levels required.
2. Add an incredible cost to such an open ended, go anywhere, contract.
3. The cost goes to the system and not to the Assassin. If an BPC settlement is being violated by the action, the system received the cost. This way you eliminate the possibility of a kick back to the employer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the big issue here is the conception of what sort of game-play "assassination" falls under.
I believe most of the people here that have a big problem with the "quick kill" scenario conceptualize it as part of the regular combat game-play, like a rogue's backstab ability. The concern there is that any sort of "quick kill" ability creates too much of a power imbalance in comparison to any other type of characters combat ability and would lead to unsatisfying game play for the target. I actualy agree with that.
However, I would argue that is an entirely INACCURATE way to conceptualize "ASSASSINATION". What you are thinking about might be termed a "surprise attack" but that's really NOT the equivalent of "ASSASSINATION". Slipping a poison into someones tea to have them die 3 days later at breakfast while a thousand miles away from the nearest tactical combat IS a form of assassination.
If you look at "ASSASSINATIONS" both historicaly and even fictionaly, it isn't really applied to actions intended to create an immediate tactical advantage in combat. That's something else. An "ASSASSINATION" almost always is a term applied to an action intended to have long term POLITICAL, ECONOMIC or STRATEGIC millitary effects. It is NOT combat in the traditional sense...at least not in the sense most people traditionaly think about combat in RPG's. It's combat in the STRATEGIC sense...in the same way that placing an embargo on importantion of someones goods or providing subsidies to devalue thier trade commodities might be.
If you can get away from thinking about in context of typical RPG combat and the traditional gameplay that involves, which really is a missapplication of the term....and start thinking of it as a different type of strategic gameplay, I think we can make some progress here. In fact, in a world where people come back from the dead, the actual "KILL" portion of the "assassination" is entirely irrelevent except themeaticaly....because in a traditional assassination there is no "fight" going on which you remove the target from. The real goal of an "assassination" is to create political/economic instability through fear, panic, loss of faith in an organization, political or economic entity and disruption of it's organizational structure, chain of authority and decision making capabilities. In traditional application of the term it pretty much has nothing to do with tactical combat save that OCCASIONALY that may be a methodology used to perform the assasination.
Edit: Functionaly it's really more closely linked to SABOTAGE then anything else. Perhaps it might help people to conceptualize it in that light instead.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How on earth does the system know in advance whether to charge for the target being in a supposedly PVP free zone or not?
A certain type of contract would disable the pvp filter. There is already a pvp filter, providing open pvp in certain zones, consensual in others and very limited in the remaining.
This high level Assassination contract would essentially behave like a non consensual declaration of war. Allow the assassin to attack that specific target anywhere.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you want it to reflect that description, don't make it about one player killing another. They're not going to stay dead, you don't disrupt anything. Make assassins something used against a settlement as a whole, reducing it's overall efficiency and development index as you assassinate key, non-ressurecting NPCs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How about a minimum 6-months of training in order to be effective as an Assassin (not the Assassin Flag), and putting a 48-hour cooldown on the Assassination Strike ability?
I think this falls into the "It would be cool if X... Nobody does X" trap. Requiring that long of training Assassin and not doing something else only to get an ability with a 48 hour cool-down means no one will train it, because the investment isn't worth the payout.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you want it to reflect that description, don't make it about one player killing another. They're not going to stay dead, you don't disrupt anything. Make assassins something used against a settlement as a whole, reducing it's overall efficiency and development index as you assassinate key, non-ressurecting NPCs.
Well because "settlements" are not the only type of organization one might seek to destabilize...a merchants guild or company would be an equaly viable target.
I'm not really seeing what the big hang up is with PvP and death in a world where death would be happening so frequently. However if it's really that much of a bother....make it completely unusuable while the target is "combat ready"...e.g. (in a combat stance) make it only function while they are "at rest" or engaged in some other activity (like crafting/eating etc) that disallows a combat stance....and put the same sort of setup gameplay around it that I already described in a previous post.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you want it to reflect that description, don't make it about one player killing another. They're not going to stay dead, you don't disrupt anything. Make assassins something used against a settlement as a whole, reducing it's overall efficiency and development index as you assassinate key, non-ressurecting NPCs.
This is an interesting approach, adding sabotage to assassination but focusing on settlements and NPCs rather than Player characters.
Just as we had the idea of interdicting supply to weaken an invader, the invader could field assassination contracts to disrupt industry by the destruction of NPC trainers or NPC master craftsmen or even industrial assets themselves or poisoning wells and burning grainery silos. Such acts should further reduce the efficiency of a settlement by reducing NPC morale.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you want it to reflect that description, don't make it about one player killing another. They're not going to stay dead, you don't disrupt anything. Make assassins something used against a settlement as a whole, reducing it's overall efficiency and development index as you assassinate key, non-ressurecting NPCs.This is an interesting approach, adding sabotage to assassination but focusing on settlements and NPCs rather than Player characters.
Just as we had the idea of interdicting supply to weaken an invader, the invader could field assassination contracts to disrupt industry by the destruction of NPC trainers or NPC master craftsmen or even industrial assets themselves. Such acts should further reduce the efficiency of a settlement by reducing NPC morale.
Being, that certainly is possible....I'm just having trouble understanding why PC death outside of combat is such a hangup to people in an environment where death is expected to happen so frequently and comes at so little cost?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I Brought Up A Similar Point Awhile Ago, Before They Were Even Close To Being Ready To Discuss It. What's The Point Of Joe The Journeyman Having Bob The Blacksmith Assassinated If He's Able To Just Walk Back Into The MetalWorkers Emporium (Albeit Taking One Bind Point Longer) And retain His Position As Master Smith. Joe's Out Some Cash And Rep, And His Coup Was Meaningless And Ineffectual.
Sorry For The Caps My Phone Is Acting Weird.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Being, that certainly is possible....I'm just having trouble understanding why PC death outside of combat is such a hangup to people in an environment where death is expected to happen so frequently and comes at so little cost?
Because in combat you have a change to save yourself and a choice of whether or not to initiate combat or run. Assassination outside of combat takes away that choice.
Not only that, but while you will keep your threaded items, you will still loose any of your non-threaded items. That can be a significant loss per death when you are more experienced and have to carefully manage threads. You keep your Weapon or Armor, but you will loose your belt of giant strength, Cloak of Invisibility, Ring of Spell Storing, and Boots of Speed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Make assassins something used against a settlement as a whole, reducing it's overall efficiency and development index as you assassinate key, non-ressurecting NPCs.
I really, really like this idea. However, I think it still needs to be an option against players in order to impact Unit Combat effectiveness as well.
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@Imbicatus, I expect there's a balance point somewhere in there where players who want to play Assassins will be happy to put in the effort, while players who are only looking to multi-class to get a cool ability will be put off.
I can't speak from personal experience, but I expect most players who want to play Assassins would be happy to get a contract every few days.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Being, that certainly is possible....I'm just having trouble understanding why PC death outside of combat is such a hangup to people in an environment where death is expected to happen so frequently and comes at so little cost?
You're mischaracterizing the opposition. No one is opposed to assassins killing people. There's opposition to the thought that this one thing should run counter to several stated design goals. There is opposition to people losing a combat encounter they don't know they're in. No matter how much you insist otherwise, it's combat. One player initiates an attack on another player. If the victem loses the encounter, he suffers death and all the penalties associated with it, PLUS extra penalties for being assassinated. Your only argument for "it's not combat" seems to be that the victim isn't aware he's being attacked.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Being, that certainly is possible....I'm just having trouble understanding why PC death outside of combat is such a hangup to people in an environment where death is expected to happen so frequently and comes at so little cost?
Because in combat you have a change to save yourself and a choice of whether or not to initiate combat or run. Assassination outside of combat takes away that choice.
Not only that, but while you will keep your threaded items, you will still loose any of your non-threaded items. That can be a significant loss per death when you are more experienced and have to carefully manage threads. You keep your Weapon or Armor, but you will loose your belt of giant strength, Cloak of Invisibility, Ring of Spell Storing, and Boots of Speed.
There are some assumptions being made here that do not neccesarly hold true...
- That the game-play is all one sided and "Assassination" simply becomes an "I win" button. I wouldn't support that either. However just because the game-play doesn't use the regular combat mechanics doesn't mean that there isn't any game-play involved between the Target and the Assassin, or that the target doesn't have any chance to defeat/escape from the Assassin or even turn the tables. It's just game-play that uses a different set of skills and mechanisms then those involved in traditional combat. In this case the contest wouldn't be between the Assassins weapon skills and the targets armor class/melee defense skills. The contest (as I described earlier) would be between the Assassins subterfuge/assassination skills and the targets awareness/security skills. Nor does the target need to be entirely passive in such a contest...there would be alot they could do in terms of how they go about doing thier activities that drasticaly decrease the Assassins chance of success and drasticaly increase the Assassin is caught in the Act. It represents the same sort of game-play/contest that occurs when characters are trading blows in melee and reducing each others hit-points. The "kill" here would only come at the end of the contest, just as it does in a traditional melee when you've been reduced to your last few hit points. The only difference here is rather then "losing hit points", the assassin is penetrating your security screen. It's a contest that occurs on a different axis...but no less a contest for it.
- There is no more indication that a successfull assassin would be able to loot your corpse here then in a melee combat between parties. In fact, quite a bit less....since the "assassination" is likely occuring in a place you feel safe...and have close access to assistance...meaning the assassin is likely to be interrupted (and killed themselves) in a corpse looting attempt.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Being, that certainly is possible....I'm just having trouble understanding why PC death outside of combat is such a hangup to people in an environment where death is expected to happen so frequently and comes at so little cost?You're mischaracterizing the opposition. No one is opposed to assassins killing people. There's opposition to the thought that this one thing should run counter to several stated design goals. There is opposition to people losing a combat encounter they don't know they're in. No matter how much you insist otherwise, it's combat. One player initiates an attack on another player. If the victem loses the encounter, he suffers death and all the penalties associated with it, PLUS extra penalties for being assassinated. Your only argument for "it's not combat" seems to be that the victim isn't aware he's being attacked.
Right, so if some-one puts poison in your tea and you die 3 days later while peacefully having breakfast surrounded by your friends (a valid form of "assassination") that is combat? I'd respectfully submit to you that is only combat in the same sense as someone undercutting the goods you are trying to sell at market or devaluing the commodities you invested in by flooding the market with competing commodities that they are selling bellow cost. Things that also happen to you before you are actualy aware of them.....and likely a good deal more costly to you then getting killed in PFO.
I think you are still conceptualizing it under the context of 3 guys squaring off against 3 guys in a dungeon somewhere with spells and swords.
Edit: Honestly I wouldn't have any real problem with no actual "death" occuring just the negative effect from assassination applied. Functionaly it would be pretty much identical, it would just seem themeaticaly absurd for an "assassination" to occur without any actual death.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Note the reason I've been harping on this topic so much....and I'm NOT even planning on playing an Assassin, I'm going to be one of those goody-two-shoes LG straight up melee fighters....
Is that I want to try to promote other forms of game-play and meaningfull conflict beside the same old boring vanilla "my to hit, vs your AC, see who can drop who's hit points to 0 first" that MMO's and games have been stuck with for decades now. PFO has the perfect opportunity to break out of that box and advance meaningfull game-play and meaningfull conflict that fall outside of that axis.
Assassination is one of the things that is actualy a perfect fit for game-play along a different axis...because it really is intended (under it's real usage) to perform an entirely different function. I'd hate to see it, along with so many other things reduced to some sub-factor of who can knock who's hit points down to zero first.
There are so many other interesting axis of game-play and conflict availble to be explored. YMMV.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Does limiting the really cool assassination tricks (whatever those might wind up being) to benefits of allying with and staying allied with NPC assassin factions (like the Red Mantis or Skinsaw Men/Church of Norgorber) handle worries about everyone picking up assassin tricks? Would that limitation bother the players here who are intending to play assassins?